Rioting Moves Inside Paris City Limit (Molotov cocktail near Gare du Nord)

[DeepModem Mom]

LAT: Rioting Moves Inside Paris City Limit
By Sebastian Rotella, Times Staff Writer


AULNAY-SOUS-BOIS, France -- Community leaders and residents marched past smoky ruins and charred vehicles in tense industrial suburbs of Paris on Saturday to protest a 10-day wave of violence, while authorities said the riots spreading across France seem ncreasingly well-organized.

New fires and disturbances broke out after dusk fell Saturday evening. By 10 p.m., two schools had burned and more than 100 vehicles had burned including several ignited by a Molotov cocktail near the Gare du Nord train station in Paris, within the city limits of the capital.

Arsonists had torched about 900 cars around the nation late Friday and Saturday, the largest number since the disturbances began. They also set ablaze a city hall, schools, a car dealership, a textile warehouse, a day care center and other buildings in immigrant neighborhoods on the edge of the capital.

Police made more than 253 arrests overnight, more than any day so far....

***

The riots spread to cities including Strasbourg, Marseille, Lille, Bordeaux and Toulouse, and arsonists struck in some better-off suburbs of the capital....


http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-riots6nov06,0,1781355.story?coll=la-home-headlines

[applegrove]

1. That is so sad.

[applegrove]

9. Delete: Wrong place for post. n/t

[GrumpyGreg]

2. OK,I give up---why burn day care centers? I don't find this sad,

I find it infuriating.

[Catrina]

3. I find it very suspicious

This seems like an allout attack on the whole country. And very organized. Not something a groups of immigrants could do on their own.

Rightwingers will no doubt use this to claim that Muslims are crazy and that's why we need to fight them. And of course, they will be thrilled that Muslims are attacking France, who couldn't see how 'right Bush was to fight them over there etc.'. I'm getting more and more suspicious about it, to be honest. I hope the French get to who's behind this.

[gardenista]

4. I agree.

Something doesn't add up.

[wookie294]

5. CIA ?

:shrug:

[DebJ]

8. Aren't the French investigating Cheney and Halliburton?

[wookie294]

10. Yes, a French judge is investigating Halliburton bribes in Nigeria

The bribes were paid when Cheney was CEO of Halliburton. More here....

http://www.halliburtonwatch.org/news/bribery_nigeria.html

[applegrove]

11. I find it sad that France and other parts of Europe have such a

hard time with immigrant communities. But now that you mention it - the native Americans had a pretty hard time with the immigrants to their shores.

People in Darfur are not doing so good with those who want their land.

I feel sad for the kids on both sides of the issue. To be honest - I felt sad when the USA was attacked. I guess I go sad first. And I have been avoiding the T.V. of late. Lets I get to the angry phase too soon and start screaming. I'm sure if I saw the T.V. I would be mad. I have not read a newspaper really seriously this weekend either. Or for the last week.

[Darranar]

44. The Native Americans had their land stolen from them

and were systematically massacred by the butchers who invaded their territory.

That's not immigration, that's genocide.

Totally incomparable to the French situation.

Furthermore, the Native Americans never systematically stole from Europe, as the French did in North Africa.

[applegrove]

57. Hmm. Yes that was my point. I was being sardonic in my comparison

of Native American experience to France... and I put Darfur in there too - that is a genocide. So I was on the same page as you.

But still - I feel for the people in France who have now had their lives destabilized over hate or perceived hate. (And there are lots of both) Very sad.

[NashVegas]

37. Agitators With Competing Philosophies

The official story is that the boys were mistaken the police were chasing after them, that they were on a call for something else.

You've got anarchists coming out on one side, and a conservative running for Presidente or whatever on the other.

Lotta posturing.

[zann725]

53. I didn't want to sound 'tin-foil', .but this is all too sudden & organized

...and from the very first images of it,thought of how much the Right here hates the French. Could this be one of the many Secret Op's occurring worldwide which most of our appointed Representatives are not even aware of, or have even been consulted about?

[barb162]

60. There were a bunch of people looking for a spark for their anger

and they found it.

A lot of these people, I think, are using excuses of racism and anti-Muslim feelings, but when a person riots for 11 days straight and is injuring people and property, they better not expect too much sympathy from those people. Like how many cars, warehouses and stores do they have to burn down to make their point. I'd like to know why they are making fire bombs in a factory; these are some well-financed punks, enjoying the destruction.

[senegal1]

54. From my experience in West Africa it adds up perfectly

I very much doubt that this is a group of muslims only. My experience in West Africa was that the French try as hard as possible to keep a very tight hold on the resources of that area through monopolistic companies and corruption while holding out France as the great mecca. Many immigrants manage to arrive in France to study or to work and experience severe discrimination and humilation. I heard a number of stories from returned immigrants both Christian and Muslim. From what I know it seems to be more rooted in discrimation against black africans from former colonies rather than a simple religious issue. I also worked with a woman who had grown up French in Morrocco who told similar stories when they were forced back to France -- lack of economic opportunities and open discrimination. The French in French West Africa were in general some of the most openingly racist people I have ever met. I would guess that much of the rioting comes from the pressure cooker of no economic opportunities, discrimination, and a second generation who feels that they should be accepted finally. The first generation was too thankful to be out of whatever African hell they faced and too worried about getting deported to raise an objection. Economic slavery is still alive. Germany could experience the same situation with their Turkish popluation...

[barb162]

62. What you say about the French and racism

I want to make some astoundingly broad generalizations here: Would you believe that I think they are sort of just arrogant to everyone, whites and blacks, who aren't french? Have you noticed how many people around the world are not so secretly enjoying the misery the French are now undergoing? I am not talking ALL French, but enough. I noticed some of them get very aggravated with you if you don't speak with a perfect accent, if you can't make change quickly enough, if you need directions, etc. You can be Chinese, a white American or a black African; most likely they will treat you like crap. It's not racism so much as they know you aren't really French. And you know what, a second generation Algerian living there isn't French to them either, any more than a second generation Canadian living there would be. I think you have to be able to trace your family back 500 years or something to be accepted as French.

Does that bother me too much? No, because most people in most countries don't really openly accept immigrants. An immigrant in any country really has to work to fit in, to assimilate. If an immigrant group doesn't really want to assimilate, there will be nothing but problems. One can never expect the host country to bend over backwards. I ssupect there is discrimination against immigrants in every country and it should just be expected as a part of human nature. The big group doesn't like accepting the different stranger in its midst. Each group coming into America met resistance, the Irish, Chinese, Germans, Slavs, Italians, etc.

[gardenista]

6. And day care centers and schools in the poor neighborhoods?

Something is wrong with this picture.

[Catrina]

12. I agree

I just heard that the French authorities believe there is a 'hidden hand' behind this.

[wookie294]

15. The CIA has financed riots in the past

Is this Bush's declaration of war on France? Anything's possible with sinking poll numbers.

[wookie294]

16. Example

The CIA's "Operation
Cyclone" - Stirring The Hornet's
Nest Of Islamic Unrest
FriendsOfLiberty.com
10-27-2

Zbigniew Brzezinski not long ago revealed that on July 3, 1979, unknown to the American public and Congress, President Jimmy Carter secretly authorized $500 million to create an international terrorist movement that would spread Islamic fundamentalism in Central Asia and "de-stabilise" the Soviet Union...

The CIA called this Operation Cyclone and in the following years poured $4 billion into setting up Islamic training schools in Pakistan (Taliban means "student").

Young zealots were sent to the CIA's spy training camp in Virginia, where future members of al-Qaeda were taught "sabotage skills" - terrorism.

More here....

http://rense.com/general31/cyc.htm

[LiberteToujours]

31. Get real

This has nothing to do with the USA, don't be so America-centric, and take off the tinfoil hat. It has to do with a very long-standing issue that is internal to France, that started boiling over earlier this year when several apartments in immigrant neighborhoods burned down.

If you take the time to learn about the actual problems facing France, you'll see there is ample reason to explain the violence without resorting to CIA conspiracy theories.

[YapiYapo]

39. Agreed

I'm 200km from Paris, most of things you hear on french paper are bullshit, guess how far from the truth the american press are on this subject ?

Saying french "muslims" ,when most of the rioter are not muslims just because they are from north africa, is just stupid, think they can be financed by repuplican is even more stupid.
Keep in mind these guys live in statellite cities build in the 60.Most of them hasn't been renovated since then, there are nothing to do in those getho ,unemployement is bigger than 50% for some, there are no place to hang out, no sport field, a very few shop , etc.

Try to live like that for a few year then you are allowed to judge them...

[DeepModem Mom]

41. Thank you for this post, from near the scene, YapiYapo. nt

[Poppyseedman]

47. Of course Bush and the CIA are behind this uprising

Why else would poor black and / or muslin people with very high unemployment without hope or a future living in ghettos finally get frustrated enough to react with violence.

Of course they would look to the imperialist USA fighting a war in Muslin country (Iraq) to finance their grievances.

It gives the perfect opportunity for the Bush cabal of Cheney / Halliburton (BFEE) to stop the French investigations into their Niger dealings.

:sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm:

[wookie294]

48. In the past,the CIA has promoted violence by poor & disenfranchised people

Nobody's suggesting the CIA is the cause of the riots, poverty and racism in France. But the CIA is known to have incited riots (and revolution) in the past in order to disrupt regimes unfriendly to the USA. It has financed small groups of armed gangs. This is not tin-foil hat stuff. It's REAL. The French police say the riots appear organized. Who hates France more than Bush? Rest assured, the fanatical maniacs in the White House are loving the action in France right now.

[Poppyseedman]

49. I know the CIA do covert operation to disrupt regime unfriendly to the USA

Nobody's suggesting the CIA is the cause of the riots

See post # 5, 8, 10 ,12 15

It is pretty obvious what is happening in France at the moment.

I don't think the CIA would have much influence over the radical muslims clerics fueling the fires of hate with these youths

[wookie294]

50. The CIA doesn't need to have "influence" over radical Muslims

I don't think the CIA would have much influence over the radical muslims

Radical groups will take money from any source, especially sources that appear friendly, like a CIA front-group pretending to be a radical Muslim organization. I think Bush/Cheney would use our tax dollars to finance a fake CIA radical group in order to send money to organized rioters in France. Or, if not the CIA, then right wing billionaires would finance it, many of whom live here in the USA. Remember, the police said the rioting appears "organized" and that something sinister appears to be going on.

[Poppyseedman]

51. Radical groups will take money from any source,

Like Saudi Wabbistist???

[wookie294]

52. Yep !

Any source including the CIA, right wing billionaires, Saudi fundamentalists or Israelis. The level of hatred for France in the USA is unbelieveable. Right wingers on other chat boards are loving the riots! I wouldn't be surprised if 5 percent of the rioting is financed by Bush/Cheney. Granted, most of the rioters are not financed by anybody, imho. But the spark that allowed the riots to last 10 days could be from a source outside of France.

[smirkymonkey]

58. Like so many coincidences before, this does seem to be a

favorable situation for the Bush Administration. "Bad muslims, fuck France." I don't know if the CIA is involved or not, but I don't think it's entirely out of the question. They could just have just threw the match in the tinderbox, so to speak.

This situation was ripe for explosion, and somebody exploited it. Whether it was the CIA, North African drug dealers or radical Muslim clerics, it seems a little too organized to be a random outburst.

[Lindsay]

13. I'm reminded of inner city riots in the 60s.

People burned their own neighborhoods out of anger at life in general. That's way too simplistic, but it's really not unusual for people to strike out where they are.

[Catrina]

14. True, but his is spreading throughout

the country, and appears to 'very organized' according to reports.

[whoretaculture]

7. Mob violence

I've read a couple of papers over the years about mobs and how they behave. The day care center probably had catchy graphics and colors. No more meaning that that. Also, targets are generally random but trends often surface. Impromptu bonfires at college bowl games and in France, this time, cars.

[wildcat78]

18. French revolution

So I guess you would consider those involved in the French revolution to be involved in mob violence?

<>


The French leaders are just another version of King Louis XIV and Marie Antoniette. It's time to sharpen the guillitiones!

<>

This rioting is bound to happen as long as the poor and desparate are treated as second or third or no class citizens. Only the leaders see mob violence but I see a class of citizens who have reached the point of no return because they have been ignored for so long.

I'm surprised this hasn't happened here or anywhere else for that matter. Take the rioting in Toledo as an example. There is a lot of energy in the poor neighborhoods; I think its just a matter of time until that bomb goes off!

[whoretaculture]

19. Jean Val Jean

There may be barricades, but I haven't seen evidence of a political movement. Nourish that tree of liberty!

[wildcat78]

22. The tree of liberty

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

-- Thomas Jefferson

<>

[whoretaculture]

27. Refresh, thank you n/t

[Dutch]

32. The Bastille was a daycare centre?

[tritsofme]

34. Even their contemporaries of the American Revolution

recognized the excess of the French Revolution.

Surely you can as well.

[LostinVA]

36. The French Revolution was mob violence, often of the worst

kind. The end product was a decent one, but the path getting there? The end does NOT justify the means, imo. It was often very Gestapo. It wasn't a bunch of aristocrats losing their heads, but poor and middle class people turned in by both mob hysteria and petty jealousies, etc. Very, very Madame LeFarge in "A Tale of Two Cities." The French Revolution was often very disgusting, very fascist, and the opposite of "Liberty, Equality, Fraternity."

The idea was noble, but the execution was often anything but.

[DeepModem Mom]

42. Thanks for your post, and welcome to DU!

[sirjohn]

17. Whose side are we on, in the battle between

the French establishment, who are in fact socialists, and the poor immigrants?

[billbuckhead]

20. Are they in fact, socialists?

Let's bring all the poor Arab and African immigrants over here.

[sirjohn]

21. Are you volunteering space in your neighborhood?

[QC]

55. It's doubtful that they could afford to live in Buckhead.

It's one of the ten wealthiest communities in the country.

http://www.buckhead.org/apts/

[whoretaculture]

23. I vote oligarchy,

[arcos]

35. do you know ANYTHING about socialism? nt

[DeepModem Mom]

43. Welcome to DU, sirjohn.

[sleipnir]

24. Well, I'll say it, the French should have cracked down on this days ago

Instead, they've tried the old, "Hey, let's talk about our differences" approach. Guess what? With riots, that doesn't work as the first step. Yes, eventually, they will need to have heavy discussions about what has brought this riot to pass. But until then, the government has utterly failed to control this incident. It's a huge welt on the face of the French and it's only getting bigger. Now, no matter what happens, it's probably going to end up poorly for the French government.

Had they brought in the military after the first few days, this would have all ended and the real healing and discussions could begin.

No, the French Gov. fucked the pooch on this one and they are going to pay a dear price, I fear.

[tocqueville]

30. I agree completely

what we need is martial law in those areas. The only winners right now are the extreme right, the losers the vast majority of the immigrants in these neighbourhoods...

[WCGreen]

25. What's really scarry is that this could happen here.....

[rfkrfk]

38. would be somewhat different, in the US

being shot dead, is not worth the fun
of watching a car burning up

[flyarm]

40. yes it can...and in the past it has...remember the LA riots & rodney king

those riots were not about rodney king..rodney king was the excuse for those riots..those riots were about police power and they were stoked by a republican mayor AND DADDY BUSH!!
because daddy *'s numbers were so low before election , the rethugs knew it and they pushed the poor to the tipping point...

the day the police were exonerated in the simi valley court..the Black rethug mayor went on tv and as i wactched..i was screaming..damn he is trying to start a riot..he is actually pouring gasoline on a very hot poor population that was kept down and out of work and suppressed for 12 years under the rethuglicans...it was desparate times for the poor in Los Angeles...
pappy * thought if he could get a riot and then put the cops under federal charges he could win the poor vote in LA and win the election against bill clinton...it didn't work..but those were the intentions..and they used rodney king for that attempt to steal the california election back then!

i will never believe other wise..i watched it all in the valley and i watched as national guard took to our streets...
and i will tell you it was a contrived riot by pete wilson, the mayor ( can't remember his name) and * papa!!

i had many friends on the hollywood side of the mountain who were lsitening to gun shots for day and holed up in their appts...

the rodney king riots had more to do with trying to get * papa the votes of the poor and latino ..because * papa wasn't getting the votes of the white and middle class and wealthy!

and he knew it!

fly

[WCGreen]

46. I was running for congress at the time here in Cleveland...

A neophyte to be sure...

All of a sudden, everything was about crime... Crime because the issue... Not poverty but crime... A replay of the 1968 election...

The beginning of the end of the democratic majority in congress....

[NorthernSpy]

56. why *here*, specifically?

Is there any population without some history of rioting?

[Carolab]

26. Seems to me more pushing the antisemitism angle there.

http://www.jafi.org.il/education/hasbara/headlines/a4-2.html

This is from "The Department for Jewish Zionist Education" website (November 2005):

{snip}

Shocked and angry, France is finding it difficult to mollify its Jewish citizens in the wake of hundreds of attacks directed at them during the past year. The heads of the Jewish organizations have been talking about a revival of anti-Semitism, and liberal Jews have been discussing the violence that has been directed toward them, the source of which is poverty. Most of the incidents, they say, have occurred in the poorer peripheral cities. Politicians and senior government officials have been whispering that Israel, because of it aggression toward the Palestinians, is the cause of this wave of anti-Jewish activity.

And there are also those who are certain that the attacks against Jews stem from feelings of anger that immigrants have with respect to their new country and its cruel attitude toward the newcomers from North Africa. This attitude is the bon ton in French discourse these days. Statesmen, journalists and especially intellectuals are expressing remorse and beating their breasts about the poverty, discrimination and oppression of the immigrants from North Africa.

{snip}

[Colorado Blue]

59. Please, do explain.

[barb162]

61. European Trends: A Ten Country Comparison

http://www.adl.org/PresRele/ASInt_13/4185_13.asp

(From the Anti-Defamation League)
"ADL Survey of Five European Countries Finds One in Five Hold Strong Anti-Semitic Sentiments; Majority Believes Canard of Jewish Disloyalty
European Trends: A Ten Country Comparison
snip
In June 2002 ADL conducted a similar survey in Belgium, France, Denmark, Germany and the United Kingdom. Following are country comparisons from the two surveys:
Percentage of those who believe Jews are more loyal to Israel than their home country: Spain 72%, Italy 58%, Germany 55%, Austria 54%, Belgium 50%, Switzerland 49%, The Netherlands 48%, Denmark 45%, France, 42% UK, 34%
Percentage of those who believe Jews have too much power in the business world: Spain 63%, Belgium 44%, France 42%, Austria 40%, Switzerland 37%, Germany 32%, UK 21%, The Netherlands 20%, Denmark 13%
Percentage of those who believe Jews still talk too much about the Holocaust: Germany 58%, Spain 57%, Austria 56%, Switzerland 52%, France 46%, Italy 43%, Belgium 38%, The Netherlands 35%, Denmark 30%, UK 23%"
------
Anti-Semitism is still very much alive in Europe

[Pooka Fey]

28. Everything, even oppression, is relative...

How many of the 45 million Americans without health insurance would consider themselves oppressed and victimized by a government which provides everyone with free health care, and provides free or subsidized housing and a monthly cash stipend for the poor? Here our minorities suffer from racism too, without the government bene's; AND the French don't disenfranchise their minority voters, either. What a terrible situation.

[Up2Late]

29. Police arrest dozens as French urban violence flares again (AFP)

(10th consecutive night of riots, but not as bad as last night. Torched cars down 1/3rd from Friday night. The Police say that it too soon to tell if they are regaining control, as the rioted ar becoming better coordinated via cell phone.)

Police arrest dozens as French urban violence flares again

06/11/2005 05h38


A Firefighter sprays water on a burning bus in Porte de la Villette
©AFP - Stephane de Sakutin

PARIS, (AFP) - Police deployed helicopters and stepped up their arrests of youths responsible for the street violence that has rocked France, as troubles flared for the 10th consecutive night in suburbs around Paris. The outskirts of other cities around the country -- including Toulouse, Rennes, Nantes and Lille -- were hit by copycat arson attacks.

Fires were also started in central Paris itself, where a petrol bomb set alight four cars near a major square, Place de la Republique. Police were more robust in going after gangs to make arrests, indicating the government was making good on its vow to crack down firmly on the violence and restore order.

Seven police helicopters fitted with powerful lights and cameras flew over Paris and some of the other cities in an effort to pursue and identify the youths, who have taken to setting fires then racing away, often on scooters. Riot squads also broke down doors in a public housing estate in the western Paris suburb of Les Mureaux to arrest youths who had thrown objects, such as supermarket trollies, on them and on a nearby busy road.

Some 2,300 more police than normal were on the streets while additional firefighters were sent to the Paris region, after a rough night Friday which saw 900 vehicles burnt and 250 people arrested. Most night bus services north and east of the capital were suspended overnight Saturday as a precautionary measure against ambushes which have seen at least two buses set fire to and destroyed.

<http://www.afp.com/english/news/stories/051106053825.w7jrxqht.html>
(more at link above)

[Olive]

33. Over 1,200 Cars Torched in France Last Night

Paris. 1,295 cars were torched in France last night during the ongoing rioting, RIA Novosti reported, citing information of the local police.

312 people have been arrested on charges of complicity. The fires around Paris and other French cities reached peak last night when more than 900 cars were burned down and 200 people were arrested after French authorities decided to take immediate and strict measures against those responsible for the 10 nights of rioting, AFP reported earlier today.

http://www.focus-fen.net/index.php?catid=135&ch=0&newsid=75923

***********

Tenth night sees no end to French riots

http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=worldNews&storyID=2005-11-06T095801Z_01_KNE228332_RTRUKOC_0_UK-FRANCE-RIOTS.xml

[rfkrfk]

45. don't be 'downwind' of a riot

situational awareness,
including being aware of the direction of the wind,
is important in time of civil unrest

[maddezmom]

63. locking

updated thread here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=1905467&mesg_id=1905467