SUV backover deaths: What can be done?

[onehandle]

Drivers unaware of rear blindspots accidentally backing over more small children, experts say.

NEW YORK (CNN) - One thing many SUV buyers like about their vehicles is the increased visibility. They feel like they can see farther down the road over the roofs of other cars. But that long-distance line of sight comes at a price that can be tragic.

What SUV drivers can't see is what's close behind them and, when backing out of a driveway or parking spot, that could be a person. In many cases, it's a small child.

More than 2,400 children are backed-up over every year in the United States. Of those, about 100 are killed. In most cases, those children are run over by a parent or other relative.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/AUTOS/tipsandadvice/11/03/backover/index.html

[democracyindanger]

1. Solution: Don't buy an SUV.

[ochazuke]

36. Well...

When I was a kid in Smyrna, Georgia about 1968, my classmate's dad ran backed up over her feet and broke them. Cute little Debbie McLane. Wonder what ever happened to her?

It was probably a station wagon. Hey, what ever happened to THEM?

[democracyindanger]

43. Dying breed.

But I got one.

[tammywammy]

48. They're still around

I know VW makes a Jetta and Passat wagon. Also a few other manufactuers still make them too, including Volvo and Ford. You just gotta look for them.

[bitchkitty]

73. Toyota makes one. n/t

[MADem]

95. I just gave one to a relative, still runs great, room for kids, good on

gas, too!

[lonestarnot]

51. And there you have it... damn it is sooooo simple!

[randome]

78. Or...

...don't have children.

[chat_noir]

2. sugar in the gas tank?

Does that really work?

j/k

[htuttle]

7. Yes, it does

...but Drano in a sealed ping pong ball is a lot more spectacular.

(NOTE TO CHILDREN: DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME! IT WILL EXPLODE!).

[RobertSeattle]

8. Nope - Urban Legend

http://www.snopes.com/autos/grace/sugar.asp

Legend: Putting sugar in the gas tank will ruin a vehicle's engine.

Status: False

[Realityhack]

30. No. Well not untill you clog the fuel filter.

Try it with a cup of gas and some sugar yourself and see if it desolves.

The best one is a plastic sandwich baggy (non-ziplock). It floats around untill it is pulled into the fuel intake. Then it clogs the intake... after a whle the pumps can't get enough fuel through and the car stalls. Re-sarting right away won't work as the bag is still in the way. But wait a bit and the suction deminishes and the baggie floats away from the intake again... car starts fine.

Takes quite a while to track down wtf is happening.

[KamaAina]

49. Potato in the exhaust pipe?

couldn't find that one on Snopes one way or the other.

[Runcible Spoon]

98. alas, myth busters tried that one

apparently the spud just shoots out the tailpipe with remarkable velocity, but no other damage is done.

[Vanje]

3. What can be done?

Remove spark plug wires.
Pour sugar in the gas tank.
Pour water in the oil reservior.
Put a big ol Idaho spud into the tailpipe.

[seriousstan]

20. Shooting vandals in the head always seems to work.

[Centered]

68. I would agree

Honestly folks... NO ONE deserves to be vandalized. Especially for something as stupid as "I say you shouldn't drive that car" Let's get off the destroying property kick please.

[Dutch]

75. So vandalism bad, murder good?

Some moral code you've got going on there.:crazy:

[Megahurtz]

55. Lol!

:D

[joeunderdog]

87. Back them up to the White House. n/t

[unblock]

4. of course, their greater visibility comes at the expense of the rest of us

but they don't care that the rest of us have more accidents trying to make a turn when an suv beside us is blocking our view of the intersection.

not their fault, is it, now?

[TallahasseeGrannie]

11. Not everyone can fit into a small car.

My husband and I are both 300+ and my son is six foot five.

It's SUV's and trucks for us.

Our school busses have cameras on the back of them.

[onehandle]

15. VW Beetles are a hit with larger people. Minivans roomier than SUVs

Beetles are easier to get in and out of (the door is huge) and the front seats are roomier than any SUV cab.

Minivans are roomier too. Taller and bigger inside because they don't have the useless ground clearance for "off-roading".

[AndyTiedye]

28. We Have an SUV Because We NEED the Ground Clearance

Can SUVs be set up with variable ground clearance?
Maybe fit some of those custom air shocks that can go up and down.

Jack it up when going over the rutted stuff, and keep it lower the rest of the time. That would improve visibility and fuel economy, and also
make it easier for short people like me to get stuff on and off the roof rack.

The SUV in question is a Ford Escape Hybrid.

[Realityhack]

34. Sortof.

you can get adjustable shocks but you might have to switch out the springs as well... probobly more of a PITA than its worth. Plus you would have to make sure the lowered height didn't cause any other handling problems by changeing the camber for example.

Funny thing is that while you need the clearance most people don't.
Oh yeah. IIRC audi makes a wagon with adjustable ride hight to get over the rough stuff (expensive though) and Porche's SUV adjusts (Rediculusly expensive).

[tammywammy]

46. And also the VW Touareg

offers the variable height. I think it's in a package, to there's extra cost.

The Touareg also offers a back up camera (extra).

[progressivebydesign]

91. Ooh! Love that car! We may get one when our minivan dies.

We have to have a larger car/van for my husband's music biz. We're tired of the minivans.. had them forever. Next would be something more fun to drive.. like the Toureg. Not SUVish.. but would work. I have a VW Golf right now and I LOVE it! Great cars for those of us that love to drive.

[tammywammy]

97. The Touareg is very nice

I've driven a couple. The one I saw with the back up camera was a totally loaded V8. Very comfy and stylish, but I wouldn't trade my TDI Beetle for it. (Well, if I become a gazillionaire, I would have one of each.)

I prefer it to the Porche Cayenne (I don't like the headlights on the Porche, it just looks weird), even though they're built on the same platform.

If you like wagons, they have a ton of cargo room. Our previous new car manager DJed on the weekends and also played hockey, and he preferred to drive the wagon for the extra room (plus he has 3 kids). But you'd have to be a wagon type of person.

The new Golf comes out in February/March, and it's hot!

[IChing]

35. subaru has the same ground clearance and is not as tall

height

69.7" / 65.0"

ford escape / subaru forester

ground clearance
8.1 / 8.1

Having a car be not as tall lets a little person be seen more easily when backing up.
5" is a lot in height in regards to a child

ground clearance doesn't mean the vehicle needs to be tall and more susceptible to roll overs.

[AndyTiedye]

38. Too Bad Subaru Doesn't Build any Hybrids

[IChing]

40. Next spring from automotive rumors, they will produce one.

I get around 27- 30 highway, and 22 city in my 1999 forester now (but that's my forester)

the ford escape hybrid gets about the same or less
see the review from edmunds

The hot summer months have taken their toll on our Hybrid Escape's mileage. Brutal summer heat forced our editors to crank up the air conditioning almost every day and the resulting gas mileage was somewhat disappointing.

It didn't take us long to figure out that anything less than the maximum A/C setting is not effective. "It seems like it's all or nothing," noted one editor. We shouldn't have been surprised as our previous long-term Mazda Tribute (the Escape's twin) often suffered from the same problem. It's not really a big drawback from a functional standpoint, however, as most editors have figured out this quirk and leave it on full blast.

Given their disappointment with the A/C's cooling ability, our editors were most interested to study the effects of high air conditioning use on gas mileage in the Hybrid model. As we expected, fuel-efficiency took quite a hit from the heat as well. While fuel economy averaged 24.9 mpg when our editors first began driving this vehicle, recent fill-ups have averaged only 19 mpg, losing more than 5 mpg on average with the heavy A/C use.
>>>snip


http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/LongTerm/articleId=103704

[AndyTiedye]

64. A Couple of Years Late

I get around 27- 30 highway, and 22 city in my 1999 forester now (but that's my forester)

We get around 29 city and highway. Our old RAV4 was in the low 20s.

I never heard of anyone getting mileage as low on the FEH as Edmunds is reporting,
even using "Max A/C" (which keeps the engine running full-time). There was some
comment on that review on Escape Central.

People were wondering how they got such poor mileage out of it.

I rarely use the A/C here.

[tammywammy]

47. I have a VW Beetle

I'm not a large person, but it's very roomy. There's ample space. Last weekend I drove a new Jetta and was surprised how much more headroom the Beetle offers. (Though the Jetta is also a very very nice car)

[unblock]

16. not all sedans are "small" cars.

in fact, there are some pretty damn big ones out there, usually more comfy than suv's anyway. it's the height that's the problem, so i can see the argument more for the 6'5" son than with the weight issue.

regardless, i don't begrude suvs for people with a genuine NEED for them. but, if suv ownership were limited to people who really had an actual NEED for them, the roads would be a lot safer.

there are WAY too many suv owners who get it for status, or to make up for um, perceived shortcomings, or because their unwilling to bend over to buckle their kids into their safety seats in a sedan.

[Caoimhe]

21. Exactly

I am 6'1" and my husband is 6'9". For him to drive my Honda he has to practically fold himself in three. He's broken the seat twice. It's hard enough for me, especially if I park up to a curb, to get my long legs out!

We bought a Tahoe for the leg space and head room, plus we have a dog that goes everywhere we do. Hard to believe all we had before was that Honda... Haven't found anything that has the room like it. Older Dodge pickups had great headroom too, but the new ones, all the gadgetry takes up space on the INSIDE not the outside.

But I won't get rid of the Honda either. It's economical, it's reliable, and most importantly... it's PAID FOR!

[Gormy Cuss]

27. Yes, but most SUV drivers I see could fit in a Mini.

It is difficult for big people. There may be other choices but big SUVs and trucks with the bench seats certainly accommodate all different sizes of people.

The article says that for a only a few hundred dollars a sensor system could be added as standard equipment but like every other safety device, the industry is arguing against it because it would only save a few lifes and increase the cost for all buyers.

[Realityhack]

33. A few thouhts.

Sorry to hear you have not been able to find a car you fit in. I beleve their are some out there but they may be in a diffrent price range etc. Many SUVs have supprisingly little room in them in direct compairison to large cars. Anyway...

FYI higher end SUVs now have backup cameras and a great many have ultrasonic backup sensors (proxcimity sesors).

[Aimah]

5. Some SUVs offer a camera in the back extra. n/t

[NanceGreggs]

6. This calls for a complete investigation ...

... by the GOP. Republicans should 'get behind' these SUVs and find out for themselves exactly what's going on here!

[area51]

60. LOL. (n/t)

[jilln]

9. Can't they just LOOK before they back out?

[onehandle]

13. SUV drivers generally have their own rules.

Most I observe around here have overly aggressive personalities and have "W04" stickers on their vehicle's ass.

They own the roads.

[LastLiberal in PalmSprings]

70. I almost backed over a toddler

My wife and I were leaving a fast food place. While eating we had seen a cute little girl -- she was at that age where being able to walk was still a new experience. When we got in the car and I looked behind and glanced at the mirrors, I saw a brief flicker of motion in the driver's side mirror. I put the car in park, and when I went to check on what I'd seen there was the girl, just toddling along like toddlers do.

Somehow she had slipped out of the restaurant and into the parking lot. Had I waited one second later to check my mirrors I would have to live with the knowledge of killing a small child. Even though it wouldn't have been my fault, it would still be my responsibility.

When I practiced law one of our clients was a mother whose son -- also a toddler -- had wandered out of the yard and into the park next door to explore the large truck which had just arrived to pump out the port-a-potty. Before the driver left, he checked his mirrors but . . . you know the rest. I will never forget the police photos.

Yes, I drive a SUV -- a Honda CR-V -- but even if I had been driving our Hyundai it would have been the same situation. The little girl was just too small and just too quick. I hope you have a solution because other than installing a wide angle television camera, I don't know what to do to prevent such an occurrence from happening again.

[RobertSeattle]

10. Remove the "Reverse" Feature?

I hate to me a smart ass, but I not sure we can prevent each and every child death.

[Caoimhe]

22. LOL! n/t

[m0nkeyneck]

24. dunno whats worse;

SUVs or ppl that don't keep an eye on their kids..

[LiberalFighter]

50. Right

Can't be that difficult to know where your toddler kids are playing. Of course if they produce too many that they can't count them all then I can see it as a problem. Then the problem is for the driver to go back to school and learn arithmetic.

[bleedingheart]

32. my father in law couldn't figure out how to go in reverse with his

one german made car...it took him two months...so he drove it to places where he could always pull forward...it was a hoot...

[napi21]

45. I had a neighbor who did that her entire life!

She was a college art teacher at Houston University, and was originally from Pittsburgh, Pa. She drove to work each day, and every summer she would drive from Houston to Pgh. to spend the summer. She NEVER learned to back up her car!!! I asked her one time how she managed. She said she just always made sure she could pull out of any place she was. She also admitted she sometimes had to drive around for a long time before she found an acceptable place to park.

[jedicord]

12. Unfortunately, this is true.

I had a Toyota Highlander until last April. While it had relatively good mileage, etc. it also had a good vantage point with regards to height.

But I had a complete blind spot going in reverse and almost ran over a child in a motorized kid's car while backing out of my driveway. I just happened to noticed something funky, stopped, saw the kid drive by. Freakin' freaked me out. This close.

While we're on the subject - SUVs make it difficult for me to see what's ahead of them, so if they're idiot drivers I don't know they're about to ram into the car that's stopped in front of them.



:rant:

[pinniped]

14. I think these people would back over a child regardless of the vehicle.

In the mean time, they should back out very sloooooooooooowly.

[AmyDeLune]

17. The DVD screen,

if I remember correctly, was originally supposed to be part of a video surveillance system for the blind spots. Tiny cameras would have been mounted on the undercarriage to check for children, cats, knife-wielding maniacs, etc. Then someone got the brilliant idea to install an entertainment system instead.:eyes: Drivers apparently don't have enough distractions...

[Carolab]

18. There should be a sensor built in that lets you know beforehand.

If you are approaching an obstacle under the vehicle, the sensor could emit alarms or shut the car down, put the brakes on, etc.

[Paulie]

19. Require backup beeper sound

any vehicle over 4000lbs should be mandated to have a reverse beeper, like garbage trucks.

[KittyWampus]

25. Small kids don't know how to respond to the beeper.

[CAcyclist]

23. A strict liability law

In Europe, the larger vehicle's driver is strictly liable for actual damages - not punitive ones - so the drivers are much more cautious. There's none of this, oh it's an accident , crap.

Secondly, more serious treatment of driver murderers:

In Mexico, you hit a pedestrian, you go to jail. Too bad if it is the parent - give these people some jailtime and you'll start to see a reduction in the number of incidents. And maybe people will rethink their "need" for an SUV.

[KittyWampus]

26. In many European countries you are also liable for starting fires. Too bad

if it was an accident.

[Lorax]

29. Problem

I have a big problem with people who say they NEED an SUV because they have to drive their dog around. First of all, unless your dog has a job, I don't see why it has to be driven around. It doesn't seem right to me that an SUV driver should be using a disproportionate amount of the earth's resources in order to drive doggies around.

Second of all, I wonder how tall people and heavy people fit into cars before Madison Avenue started telling us that we all need SUVs.

[LiberalFighter]

52. I don't have trouble driving my 2 dogs around in my Cavalier

I have up to 4 dogs in the car.

[LeftyMom]

67. I'm a small person with a smallish car but

dogs need to go to the vet, the groomer, etc (although sometimes those services can come to you, serious vet care gets done at the office.)

How did big people fit in cars before? Well, my Dad, being 6' tall and a bit overweight, stuck to old muscle cars that made SUVs look efficient for as long as those cars were readily avalable and now he drives a big Lincoln Towncar. When economics dictated we needed a small car for a while (he had a celica for a while and later a civic when I was a kid) he folded down as small as he could and tried to drive. It would've been comical if it weren't so painful looking, especially in the civic with his head pressed against the sunroof so hard he cracked the glass. I have no idea how even larger people are expected to manage.

[Boomer]

31. My co-worker backed up into my car....

We were both leaving work at about the same time and I had already moved my car all of the way out of its parking space when he backed up and crushed the side of my car. He damaged both the driver and passenger doors, nearly trapping me inside.

I hate SUVs.

[fshrink]

37. A very nice metaphore indeed!

Fear breeds violence.

[LisaM]

39. One solution would be to require an operator's license

these things are huge and it's totally unlike driving a car. I see only positive from requiring an operator's license - you could charge, thus increasing license revenue, and we would all be safer. In particular, SUV drivers need to be aware of:

Stopping distances
How they affect others' visibility (especially at intersections - how many of us have followed an SUV through a turn, only to find out that the light is RED?
Backing up
How much rain they splash onto smaller vehicles (goes with the visibility thing)
Parking in the space allotted
Safety in general

and so forth.

[leesa]

41. Stop driving the behemoths. Or make people get a truck license

after training.

[depakid]

42. That is actually a sensible proposal

Many SUV's handle quite differently and require seperate sorts of skills from driving the usual passenger car. I imaging that a lot of accidents could be prevented by requiring an additional certification before one is allowed to drive some of these vehicles on the road.

[Megahurtz]

56. They SHOULD get a truck license. n/t

[DrZeeLit]

44. Yep. Our nearest neighbors. Ran over their 3 year old. Dead.

And the thing was, the child was run over in the driveway, in front of the car.
Yes, it was that biggest SUV. Don't know the names of these.

I do not think the neighbors will ever be "okay" again.
I'm sure their life, their marriage is over. The air is just heavy over there.
And we live in the country, so they're already a bit isolated.
I just feel horrible.
And that day can't be erased from my memory, and I wasn't even involved.
It is beyond sad.

[Megahurtz]

53. I got an idea.....

everyone get rid of the damn things!
They're a hazard for other drivers anyway, because you can't see around them!
I've almost been hit so many times backing out of a parking space because
the vehicles parked on either side of me were SUV's (and I'm sure I'm not the only one)

And lives lost is too high a price to pay for ego!

SUV's = Stupid Ugly Vehicles.:sarcasm:

Everyone get rid of the things! They're killing the earth and they're killing people!!!

[RedRocco]

71. SUVs scare the hell out of me

on the highway and in parking lots
but then again I drive a 1800 lb go-kart thats so small and low an SUV driver probably cant see even if it was wheel to wheel with it on the passenger side



why is it my 25 year old car gets better gas mileage (35 mpg) than most of the newer vehicles?

[truthisfreedom]

54. my friend has one on his Audi: a sensor that detects anything in your path

and beeps in the driver's compartment at varying rates to indicate how close. it uses ultrasonic, like bat sonar.

[nomatrix]

57. Since we are on the topic

"It's called the "bye-bye syndrome" said Janette Fennell, founder of the auto safety group Kids and Cars.

Wanting one last chance to see mommy, daddy, or grandmother before they go, a child will run up behind the vehicle at the worst possible time. Small children don't realize that the driver may not be able to see them.

While most drivers are aware that there are areas behind their vehicle in which they cannot see, many don't realize how large those areas can be. The problem is worse in trucks and SUVs than in other cars because of their increased height and the distance between the driver and the tailgate or rear window."

This is true of ANY vehicle when a child will run up behind at the worst possible time.
Parents should encourage children NOT to run up behind any vehicle that is backing up, or run in front of any vehicle that is moving, or dart out between parked vehicles,(I see adults do this all the time especially in store parking lots while talking on the cell phone) The article doesn't say whether the driver was talking on the cell.

Just another thought. Sometimes an accident is just that.

A parent, who loses their child in an accident when they are the operator, will go through enough self loathing without CNN pointing out it was caused because of an SUV. Adults should take the time to teach their children how dangerous a moving vehicle is regardless of size.

All terrain vehicles, dirt bikes, though fuel efficient do kill children and adults.

I see more parents walking with their children, talking on the cell phone (about nothing)
and the kids have a glazed look. When you are with your children, pay attention to them, and what is going on around you because this is the time to teach them. There are no do overs. Especially if you work.
Count how many hours you have exclusively with your child. You will not get those hours back. They will grow, and if your example shows them, the phone was more important...

[Danmel]

58. One of the Pediatricians in my kid's Dr's office ran over his own kid

and killed him in his SUV. The boy was only 2. He started an SUV safety group- I think it's called kids and cars. Very very sad- he is a very nice man. I can't imagine having to live with that type of guilt.

I drive a Camry myself.

[lonestarnot]

59. That is about the worst thing that could ever happen to a person.

[Kablooie]

61. Toyota's Prius has a video camera in the back bumper.

It's not currently available standard in the US but is in Japan. The bumper is already made to hold the camera and you can buy self installation kits. I think Toyota is planning on offering it as an option in the US soon.

[Orsino]

85. It may be even more important for a Prius...

...than for an SUV, because the little hybrid is so doggone quiet that bystanders often don't realize that it's running. Mine, though it of course doesn't feature the camera, does beep when in reverse. The beeps are inside the cabin, to remind the driver that not everyone around is sufficiently wary.

I think that's cool.

[Lorax]

62. This is a pet subject of mine,

I used to have 2 big dogs, one a 70lb Malamute and the other a 120lb Huskie/Malamute mix, and they both fit in the back of my Saab 900. And when I get to heavy to fit into a normal sized car, then I will take that as an indication to go on a diet (or perhaps walk my dogs more), not to go buy a SUV.

[twin_peaks_nikki]

63. Death penalty for backing up and talking on the cell...

Funny I saw a woman almost back into the car behind her today while yakking away on her cell.

Maybe they could require the loud beeps to sound when in reverse like big garbage trucks have.

[Fairlyunbalanced]

66. SUVs are stupid...

And are thankfully on a massive downturn in terms of US auto sales. THAT is why gas prices have been edging lower. The oil companies don't want us to buy more fuel efficient vehicles. Anyways I digress....

Alot of newer SUV's and vans come with rear sensors on them. That will doubtlessley help the situation, but most people drive too fast for it to save em all.

What needs to be done to control SUV's in this country is a massive luxury tax on the stupid things, and very strict controls on what sorts of businesses "need" them.

How many people do you know with 4x4 capability that have never ever once used it? Also, insurance costs should be much much higher for em... as was posted above, SUVs are more likely to cause injury or death than cars, so there is absolutely no reason why it shouldn't cost alot more to own one. Most of car insurance premiums cover medical costs.

[BiggJawn]

65. Wonder why mom and dad never backed over us kids?

Dad had a big-assed 1/2 ton pick-up back when they weren't that common. Mom drove the Roadmaster and Sedan DeVilles.

Could it possibly be because we were taught NOT to play behind or around an idling vehicle?
Could it be that mom and dad made SURE where me and the Bro were before moving the gearshift?
Could it be because there were NO cell-phones in 1962?

[radwriter0555]

69. Gee and did mom and dad actually WATCH you kids to make sure you weren't

in harm's way?

Go figure.

[onehandle]

74. SUVs are structurally different from big pick-ups and a large sedan.

The article puts a sizable amount of blame on the kids and parents themselves.

But that doesn't change the fact. SUVs have huge blind spots built into their very design.

If you have kids, you don't need an SUV. You need a station wagon or a minivan.

If you go off-road often, you need an SUV. Much less than 1% of SUVs are used off-road.

Most are expensive and dangerous replacements for a station wagon or a minivan.

[BiggJawn]

77. Uh, ever look out the back window of a 56 Buick?

Or a '61 Chevy 1/2 ton?

The sight-line out the back of most late 50's-early 60's cars was pretty crappy, too. Bro and me may have survived alive, but I can't say the same thing for a couple of bicycles...(whoops!)

And I used to have a '72 VW van. No worse rear view than THAT, IMO. Didn't back over MY kid.

The total blame belongs on the parents.

The only thing anyone "needs" an SUV for caould just as easily be addressed through talk therapy: "Why do you suppose it's important to be seen as having a very large penis?"

And before you flame me, ask yourself this:
How did people who live in the Snow Belt EVER get by before they invented the Penis Augmentor? Hmmmm?

[1932]

82. If we're speaking anecdotally, I have a friend whose grandfather backed

over and killed her uncle when her uncle was a baby. So, maybe those big heavy cars were a problem in the 50s and you got lucky by surviving. You have to admit that the majority of cars on the road in 70s and 80s were sedans and smaller cars with decent rear visibility.

In the 90s, SUVs became the vehicle of 50% of drivers.

I think I read hear at DU one that mortality rates for all cars plateaued in the 90s, however, within that number, cars became significantly safer. The reason the overall number didn't drop, however, was because SUVs are less safe and they increased sales significantly throughout the 90s.

Solon's right. If you are going to put so many people in such large, heavy vehicles with handling and safety characteristics that are so different from a car, you should probably require a truck license for them (or make a driver's ed program that talks about SUVs is required for drivers of SUVs).

[jmowreader]

86. We drove Jeeps and old Beetles

The Jeep Wagoneer came out in 1963. They weren't very good, but they'd get you around. Before the Wagoneer, there were Willys 4-wheel-drives, and the Chevrolet Carryall-Suburban came out in 1934. (With that: when the Carryall-Suburban came out it was a work truck; you'd never have seen one parked in most driveways. My family's driveway had one in it, but it was painted bright orange, said "GSA Interagency Motor Pool" on the side of it, and the entire back end of it was full of survey stakes.)

Also, the original Volkswagen Bug has unbelievable traction--each car came standard with a 250-pound weight behind the rear wheels that just makes the rear wheels stick like glue. You know that weight as "the engine."

Before the 4wd trucks? I dunno...maybe you lived close to work and to school so you could walk when the roads were impassable, and stocked up for the winter?

[1932]

89. I think the hazards of SUV's became magnified by two phenomena:

Sure there were large 4WD vehicles in 60s 70s and 80s. But people didn't drive their Wagoneers EVERYWHERE EVERYDAY -- they didn't use them to drop the kids off at school and then go grocery shopping. They didn't pull them in and out of driveways and parking lots 10 times a day.

Also, the fact that everyone else drives one starts to limit any safety advantage they have. So, you could see over other cars in parking lots and driving down the road when 10% of the cars were large SUVs. But now that over half the cars on the road are SUVs, you're very likely to be parked next to one in a parking lot, or behind one on the street, or trying to make a right at a stop sign and an SUV pulls too far into the cross-walk on your left, and there goes your visibility advantage.

[BiggJawn]

93. VW engine weighed that much?

Wow. No wonder I crossed my eyes lifting the one out of my van up onto the workbench.

We had several "Suburbans" when I was growing up, after my 'rents got out of their Caddy Phase. 2WD, would go through almost ANYTHING, and you couldn't see anyone shorter than 5' standing behind you if they weren't visible in the side mirrors... I replaced the U-joints in one once for dad and didn't even have to jack it up to crawl under it, and I wasn't a small boy by any reach...

[1932]

80. pickups have good visibility out the back for the driver. Even large

sedans are low to the ground and you can see short people behind you when you back up.

[BiggJawn]

83. But can you see these short people...

If they're sitting on the driveway under the back bumper, playing with their matchbox cars and trucks?

No.

Sure are a lot of people in this thread trying to put all the blame on the design of the vehicle.

That many people around here back over somebody?

[1932]

84. If we're talking anecdotally

and not actually referring to the findings to which the report in the OP refers -- in other words, I'm trying to recall the handfull of news stories I've read about back-up deaths and injuries, and my friend's uncle's death -- the story is most often that the parent or friend of the family is leaving and the child sees the car leaving and runs and shouts because they want to say goodbye and they're to the right of the car but because they know the driver is on the left, they try to run around the back to get to the left side and they get hit. In a passenger car or pickup, the field of vision is so much larger, so the odds of a kid starting their run from a blind spot and staying in that blind spot during their entire run is much lower. SUV's are larger and they're probably more insulated from outside noice and have bigger engines and more sympathetic vibrations because of the larger engine, which also decrease the likelihood that the child can be heard, or perhaps children don't even bother shouting at an SUV to stop because it is larger, which increases the urgency to run around the back before that loved parent or relative drives away...

I suspect that another source of injuries -- and I'm just guessing on this one -- is backing out of a parking spot in a mall when you're in a row of SUVs. Since you can't see past the SUVs on either side of you and you have to just go straight out and cross your fingers (and think, hell, I'm in a big truck, so other drivers have to look for me if I can't see them), I imagine that this becomes a habit and the one day you're in a hurry and you pull out a little faster then other days it might be the one unlucky day when a toddler just got ahead or fell behind a parent walking through the parking lot.

I suspect kids playing matchbox cars or whatever is less likely scenario than either of the two cases I just described because you'd have to be really distracted not to notice kids playing behind you in the driveway before you got into your car.

I don't think the issue is just that people want to blame the design of the cars for deaths.

The issues is that we're Americans. We're smart, we're ambitious and we can connect dots. If there is some design flaw that is leading to deaths and we can think of ways to correct those design flaws, then we can reduce needless deaths. It's definitely worth thinking about and talking about. What kind of ghoul would want to protect the status quo of a bad design that is killing people because of some kind of "personal responsibility at all costs" ideology?

[BiggJawn]

90. I see we have some serious diferences of opinion here.

They may not be surmountable.

"I suspect kids playing matchbox cars or whatever is less likely scenario than either of the two cases I just described because you'd have to be really distracted not to notice kids playing behind you in the driveway before you got into your car."

How much have we all seen in The Media about the "demands" of Modern Life? *I* can envision people so distracted with their cellies, PDAs, thoughts on what they're driving to, whatever that they've got a real bad case of tunnel vision going on.

"The issues is that we're Americans. We're smart, we're ambitious and we can connect dots."

Yeah, we're Murkans alright. We're superstitious, greedy, and we want somebody to blame for our personal shortcomings. Why do you think the Personal Injury Law industry is so lucrative?

"If there is some design flaw that is leading to deaths and we can think of ways to correct those design flaws, then we can reduce needless deaths. It's definitely worth thinking about and talking about. What kind of ghoul would want to protect the status quo of a bad design that is killing people because of some kind of "personal responsibility at all costs" ideology?"

Depends on how we define "design flaw". I have talked with some (OK, so they were anti-car "radicals") who think even VOLVOS are unsafe.

If your goal is to design a vehicle, that no matter HOW negligently it's operated, will absolutely endanger no-one, then you could say that there are design flaws running rampant all over the world.
But, even if you COULD design a "kind" car, how practical as a method of transportation would it be, and how affordable to the Average Schmoe?

I don't have an "Ideology of Personal Responsibility at ALL Costs" any more than I suspect that YOU have one of "Save me from myself, no matter what it costs!"

Not so sure we can agree on anything here other than it being true that kids get backed over by cars.

[1932]

94. It's not exactly opinion, plus a question about "costs"

The stories I remember reading in the news about people backing over kids are as I described.

The child was trying to get the attention of the person, running towards the car to say goodbye, and got backed over. It's not a situation where someone was loitering behind the car and the person backed up. Checking behind the car before you got in the car wasn't the issue, nor was failing to teach your kid that behind a car is not a good place to play.

Of course, this is an anecdotal argument and therefore not that productive. But, I was merely responding to your anecdotes with anecdotes.

It would be most helpful to see what the study says.

As for suing people, that's not what we're talking about. What did I say that made you think I was advocating getting lawyers involved? I don't think I said anywhere that anyone should be able to sue vehicle manufactures for these deaths. Interesting that you'd make that leap though.

And if you want to look at statistics that say that a lot of kids are getting backed over by cars that more and more people are driving and which have bad rear visibility (Solon's right about these cars needing bigger mirrors) and are large and heavy and you think the answer is to just tell KIDS not to run behind cars and do nothing more, and if you think wanting to do more is a sign of superstition, greed, and blaming someone else for our "personal shortcomings," then you're right. We don't have much to say to each other.

However, I am curious what you think the costs are of addressing this issue more broadly than saying "hey, teach your kids right!" What would be the cost of regulations that discouraged people from using two ton trucks with poor visibility and handling characteristics as their primary commuting vehicle? What would be the costs of larger mirrors and back-up beeping signals, just like on commercial vehicles?

[BiggJawn]

96. Maybe we can agree on something.

I need to do abetter job of explaining myself, though.

"...and you think the answer is to just tell KIDS not to run behind cars and do nothing more,..."

No, how about telling the PARENTS "You don't see your kid, you don't MOVE the car". what could be so WRONG with THAT???

"As for suing people, that's not what we're talking about."

True, that comment was a cynical swipe at your allusion to Americans being a "Can DO!" sort of people. Maybe in the past...No longer. Ever watch daytime TV? Ever wonder why it seems most the ads are for ambulance chasers? I wonder. I don't think "Personal Rsponsibility" is the answer, though...

"What would be the cost of regulations that discouraged people from using two ton trucks with poor visibility and handling characteristics as their primary commuting vehicle?"

Well, we all saw that it was about $3 per gallon, right? But now that "The Precious Juice" has gone back down towards $2, it would seem that people are back to lovin' their monster trucks.

I think we both can appreciate the howling that would go up if someone were to introduce a bill that would PENILE-ize (pun intended) SUV owners even more than the price of ownership and cost of feeding their behemouths would.

Something else I think we can agree on: How is it that someone who wants to drive a 6-ton truck for a living has to have a FEDERAL license and pass an annual physical, but anybody of any age who hasn't had their kids or doctor take away their state license yet can pilot a 8-ton Land Yacht between the Midwest and Florida or Arizona 2X a year?

Now THAT'S scary, right?

[Voltaire99]

72. A pity the kids aren't running over their idiot parents instead.

That will come later, of course, after the driving permits are issued. SUV = Menace.

The sooner the price of oil makes them unfeasible, the better.

[Solon]

76. My two cents...

I never drove an SUV, but I did drive a full sized van as the Ice Cream Man for years. A couple of things I can think of right now, one, those cameras and sonic/radar sensors should be standard or, as a cheaper solution, have a rear curved mirror on the driver's side, you see them on big commercial vans and or security trucks, they stick out past the back and look like hidden security cameras at Walgreens. Also the backup beeping noise that garbage trucks have, my van had that, great way to warn others that I was backing up.

A trucker's license should be required to drive one of those behemoths, I mean, hell, my van was damn near the size of a camper and those Escalades would dwarf it. Mine probably did outweigh with with the freezer an all though, but that weight was in the CENTER of the van. Also, with the mirror in the back, have a curved mirror in the front as well, like school buses. My ice cream van had all those safety features, the low tech ones at least. They are effective, so I don't see why they shouldn't be on consumer vehicles of commercial vehicle sizes. If people don't buy them because it looks ugly or whatnot, well, that's just the market for ya! ;)

[1932]

79. I second those two cents.

[Gregorian]

81. What the hell is wrong with Americans?

And don't go putting those fucking backup horns on every suv!

First they vote the human trash into a situation where he can steal the country, then they start running over their own kids.


What is it with this automobile love affair? When is someone going to tell these idiots that it's poisoning the air, heating up the planet, and now rolling over their kids.

Our attention focus is in totally idiotic places. Flag burning, Pledge ammending, gay banning, and just total bullshit.

There's a world waiting for Americans. It's burning. Fuck your cars. Fuck your consumption. Wake up.

Sorry. If that offends you, just ignore it. Sometimes I really have to post my anger over these clowns.

[Orsino]

88. IQ/testosterone tests required for SUV sales.

A driver who wants an SUV automatically fails. :D

Seriously, the problem may be mostly psychological. If you choose to drive a tank, it may indicate just a little bit less concern for the people outside, and no matter how careful the driver, being elevated above traffic makes one just a tad less aware.

And when mishandled, of course, an SUV can do much more damage than an ordinary car could.

[progressivebydesign]

92. How many toddlers are run over by simply wandering into the street?

I'm not a fan of giant SUVs. We have tons of the Hummers and Escalades, Expeditions, etc., in my town. But I was wondering what the statistics are for kids simply wandering out into the street or parking lots at that age? I imagine probably similar?

We are taught to look behind our cars and walk around them before we get in.. every time. Do we all do that?

I am also someone who is uber cautious when I back up anywhere. I move at a snail's pace.. I just would never forgive myself if I hit someone. I don't know how many times I've been slowly backing out and noticed that an ADULT had walked directly behind my car in a parking lot.