Blair signals shift over climate change

[cal04]

Tony Blair appeared last night to undermine more than 15 years of climate change negotiations when he signalled a shift away from a target-based approach to cutting greenhouse emissions. Speaking at the end of the first day of a summit in London of environment and energy ministers, the prime minister said that legally binding targets to reduce pollution made people "very nervous and very worried".

He said when the Kyoto protocol expires in 2012, the world would need a more sensitive framework for tackling global warming. "People fear some external force is going to impose some internal target on you ... to restrict your economic growth," he said. "I think in the world after 2012 we need to find a better, more sensitive set of mechanisms to deal with this problem." His words come in the build-up to UN talks in Montreal this month on how to combat global warming after Kyoto. "The blunt truth about the politics of climate change is that no country will want to sacrifice its economy in order to meet this challenge," he said.

"If we can deal with this in the right way and have this informal mechanism then I think we can find a way of meeting what I believe is the clear desire of our people - which is to find a way of combining rising living standards with the responsibility to protect our environment." The statements echoed sentiments Mr Blair expressed informally at a meeting organised by Bill Clinton in New York recently, when he said he was "changing my thinking" on the best way to tackle climate change. Mr Blair's office said at the time his remarks had been misinterpreted and they did not signal that the UK was changing its position or adopting an attitude similar to that held by the US.

The US has refused to sign up to Kyoto because it says caps on pollution would damage its economy. George Bush also objects to big developing countries, such as China and India, being exempt. Mr Blair has acknowledged he will not overcome such opposition and has instead focused on the need to develop green technology.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/climatechange/story/0,12374,1606602,00.html

[rodeodance]

1. good lord! the man has turned to mush!

[IndianaGreen]

8. No, Tony is now a Republican

No matter what Blair or Bush do or say, or in Bush's case fail to do or say, their inertia on the environment will not change the science. The climate is changing due to man's folly and all of us will suffer for it.

[Gnostic]

30. I fail to see the opposition to Blair's comments

If anything, if only even for once in his puppeted career, he said something that makes some sense.

Read more carefully. He says he simply ACKNOWLEDGES the oppositions to the treaty, but goes on to say he won't try and overcome them and instead focus on green tech.

If this is true and not just a do-nothing facade for the corps, then I actually applaud the approach and reasoning. All first world industrial countries need to pour resources into developing alternative energy sources NOW, if only the present energy conglomerates would allow it, which looks rather bleak for this country since it's being controlled by such.

[PaulaFarrell]

35. Informal mechanisms just don't work

CFCs weren't controlled by informal mechanism, and the development of replacements for CFCs came AFTER the agreements were made. Ditto car emissions. Funding green technology without enforcing its use is just so much pie in the sky. Until fossil fuel costs rise so high that only green tech is affordable, people (with a few exceptions) will just continue to do what they do. And in the meantime the planet burns. He is laying the groundwork for weaseling out of making the treaty stronger in 2012. And that Bill Clinton is apparently partly responsible for Blair's change of heart surprises me not at all, as he helped water down the first round.

What is so laughable about this is that all this hand-wringing over over economic drawbacks of Kyoto - well, look at the economic drawbacks of one single record-breaking hurrican season.

It is catering to corporate cronies and Blair is a fucking idiot.

[Gnostic]

36. Comparing mass job loss

to hurricanes is apples and oranges.

NOLA sustained the amount of damages it did because it's infrastructure was left to rot for years without upgrades and improvements, and this was due to BOTH the incompetence and thievery of State AND federal levels, Dem AND repug.

The loss since the middle seventies of the manufacturing and industrial base in this country is a blow of mind blowing scale economically, and the hardest hit are always the working class who are the ones directly affected when mass lay-offs are announced because some knee-jerk enviro-wacko politician finally got some foreign assembled and crafted treaty signed which basically gives a green light to countries like China to go ahead and open a few hundred thousand more industrial plants which will churn out products to be sold back to Americans in your friendly neighborhood Wally-World using slave labor and no enviro-controls while at the same time our own industry turns to dust completely.

This is NOT the way to solve the issue. And being an elitist environmental nazi is'nt going to ingratitae you with the working man/woman of this country.

Kioto has to be across the board neutral on restrictions, it cannot have any exemptions for any nation or regime. It either is applied evenly across the spectrum or it's the death blow for American industry, since it's more likely we all get annihilated by a stray comet than it is for Congress to enact anti-outsourcing legislation.

[muriel_volestrangler]

38. "enviro-wacko politician"? "elitist environmental nazi"?

Thanks for raising the tone of the discussion :eyes:

A few figures for you:

Carbon dioxide emissions per capita
USA 19.5 tonnes per person
UK 9.2 tonnes per person
China 2.7 tonnes per person
India 0.9 tonnes per person

World average: 3.6 tonnes per person

So, let's have an "across the board neutral" treaty, shall we? China can increase its emissions by a third, India by 4 times (but we'll hold them to that, don't worry) - and the UK can cut its emissions by 3 times, and the USA by 6. That would be the neutral treaty.

Face it, it's the USA above all that needs to cut its emissions. They are way higher than they need be. But it's the whole world that suffers.

[Gnostic]

44. Your statistics are erroneous

Those tons of Dioxide levels you posted are either erroneous now, or they will be very shortly. The Chinese are the planet's number two oil and gas importer and consumer, and at the rate of expansion they are experiencing, that trend will only continue until they meet our levels and even surpass them. They are fiercely competing with us for natural resources across the globe.

And regardless, I cannot and never will give the green light to them to spew whatever they want into the atmosphere while we get saddled with even more restrictions that will only induce industries here to pack up and leave even more than they already have. I know I'm starting to sound like a broken record on this, but I don't know what it takes to get it through your collective heads.

Face it, the working people of the USA could'nt possibly care any less about your enviro-agenda. They want to keep their JOBS, their livelihoods, their communities. Our industrial belt has already been wiped out, now Kioto will come along and completely annhilate it, if it's passed without a more fair across the board re-wording.

Nobody cares. And nobody will until you start protecting American jobs and manufacturing by prohibiting companies from moving to what you will create as an industrial Chinese paradise of environmental controls, or lack thereof.

I could go out in the street today and take a simple poll for you. I could ask a group of anonymous and randomly picked voters which issue is more pressing for them. Your enviro-fascism won't be on top of the list, jobs WILL be. But delude yourself further. It will be funny....then sad.....to see the Dems lose yet another congress and WH election when they once again don't get in touch with the common working person in this country and just keep harping on about crap like this that nobody cares about except elitist libs who wear suits for a living.

[muriel_volestrangler]

45. My "enviro-fascism"? Climate change is "crap"?

Yet again, you resort to stupid insults.

People who don't care this are are ignorant. And I note that you don't show any alternative carbon dioxide emission levels, you just assume they're wrong. That's very ignorant of you.

Do you agree that 'fair' would be an equal amount of carbon dioxide per person? And that therefore the USA must cut down massively on its emissions? And that Europe should cut down too?

Finally, why do you think it will be funny to see Democrats lose elections? That's rather a strange attitude for a poster on Democratic Underground, don't you think?

[Gnostic]

47. I will ask you too now

What do you do for a living?

Do you, by chance, get your hands dirty?

Please answer, I hope I won't be disappointed again. I've asked this before and I can't get an answer from your types. Please prove me wrong you are'nt another "elitist lib".

Oh, and the reason I said it will be "funny" is I was trying to be sarcastic. I would'nt truly find it humorous, I would find it funny in as far as seeing elitist dems once again further alienate the blue collar base in this country by ignoring the pressing issues for them at hand and instead focussing all this energy and attention on matters that they care not a whit about.

People who don't care about this are ignorant? That is the MOST elitist thing I've seen here yet. So, the vast majority of blue collar workers in this country are "ignorant" to you, eh? Thanks for showing how you really feel about us. It must be nice to be an elitist with smooth hands.

[muriel_volestrangler]

55. 'Elitist' seems to be your favourite word

And you use it to mean "someone who disagrees with me", it seems. It's not 'elitist' to say that people who don't care about a huge threat to the whole world are ignorant. I was giving it as a reason they don't care - that they don't realise the problems climate change could cause. Famine, drought, flooding - or are you saying you know what it could do, but you don't give a toss, because you think you'll personally be OK, or dead by the time the really bad effects kick in? Do you think "the vast majority of blue collar workers" (your words, not mine) are that uncaring about what world their children will inherit?

Why do you assume that it's 'blue collar' versus 'others'? You don't have to be white collar to want a liveable future for the planet. I never talked about blue collar workers, or 'the vast majority'. You're just constructing a strawman to argue against. Please don't put words into my mouth.

What are 'my types'? People who have an idea of what the figures for carbon dioxide production are? Or are you still calling me a fascist?

I'm a computer programmer, for what it's worth. Does that suddenly change the facts I've told you?

[Gnostic]

58. What I thought

A programmer. A white collar type. You won't be affected by yet another plant closure here, that's why you could'nt care less about it or about how countries like China will skate scot-free while they acquire yet another huge sweatshop that churns out yet another computer box for you to play on once it's shipped over here.

Yes, you bet, it's white collar versus blue collar in this issue.

Primarily because, the vast majority of pro-kyoto guys like you have'nt worked a hard day in your life sweating in a steel plant wondering if your job will be there tomorrow.

Yes, you are elitists. Until you open your eyes and ears to the working class of this country. And you will lose election after election, because the lower class blue collar workers outnumber your types by a vast majority, and it's partly why alot of them are fed up with the Democratic party.

[muriel_volestrangler]

68. Although I see your attacks on Democrats have got you banned

I will point out a few things to you. Programmers are, of course, just as vulnerable to outsourcing as any factory worker - and far more vulnerable than plumbers.

You seem to think that plant closures and outsourcing have happened because of environmental agreements. They haven't - the USA hasn't signed such agreements. They happen because of the globalization of capital - which, as others here have pointed out, is frequently opposed by environmentalists. And so your concerns about job losses are not relevant to to this discussion of climate change.

Few people have actually worked in heavy industry. But an awful lot of us do wonder if our jobs will remain. Farmers wonder if the climate will allow them to continue producing food, or if the overconsumption of the industrialised world will ruin it.

If the tax breaks and fuel consumption standards in the USA hadn't been skewed towards wasteful SUVs by the politicians under contract to Detroit, maybe they would have produced efficient vehicles that could compete in the world market against those from Japan and elsewhere - thus saving American jobs. But they followed short term profit in exchange for long term survival - exactly the mentality that could screw the planet if people don't take climate change seriously.

[hatrack]

56. So, we must now meet your high standards for blue-collar authenticity?

Our opinions don't count unless we work in certain professions?

Our personal worth and the validity of our arguments are defined by the kind of job we have?

Sounds pretty elitist to me. How very Republican of you! :eyes:

[Name removed]

60. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[hatrack]

61. Goodbye, Gnostic

Have a nice life.

[Name removed]

63. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Gnostic]

48. Frog march

"That's rather a strange attitude for a poster on Democratic Underground, don't you think?"

Hmm, what am I supposed to do, march in complete lock-step with every single liberal issue on these boards? Sorry, won't do. Too freeper like for me, but thanks.

I WANT to see the Dems win in 06 and 08. And I see a few issues I don't agree with and millions and millions of others don't as well. And I project this down the road in 06 and 08 and see Dem losses again, sadly, because a few elitists out of touch with reality and the real world of working men and women can't see that their unbending agendas are hurting the party.

[PaulaFarrell]

57. Sorry but if you're asking me to choose between US industry and the planet

I choose the planet.

And I was talking about Nawlins per se. That was probablyt a catastrophe waiting to happen. I'm talking about a record-breaking year of hurricanes throughout the Gulf and the Caribeean. This is the first year ever that they ran out of names! Doesn't that concern you in the least? I don't think the USeconomoy can rebound from year after year of that. I know for a fact that some of the poorer economies can't.

As for your assumption that working-class people are interested in the environment, I think it's called projection. But you breathe air, I take it? You drink water, maybe? You occasionally eat? I bet you might even fish or hunt now and then. If you do any of those things then you should care about the environment whether you have the sense to do so or not. Those American-made tools aren't going to help you out much when there is a massive food shortage due to drought and when 90% of oecan species die off (that's what is estimated died out in the last major warming event).

By the way, I think you'll find the vast majority of environmentalists are anti-globalsiation, so I'm not real sure why you're attacking us. Shouldn't you be out attacking the republicans?

And lastly, if you hate Walmart and Chinese goods go fucking preach to your workmates! They're the ones buying them. Most people here wouldn't dream of shopping at Walmart.

And it's Kyoto. Kyoto. K-Y-O-T-O.

[Gnostic]

62. Funny

"Most people here wouldn't dream of shopping at Walmart."

That's because most of the enviro-libs here have well-paying white collar jobs that enable them to avoid shopping for the cheapest item in order to sustain their families in a time of unsurety and nervousness about their jobs.

I know it must be nice to be able to not worry about your cozy job and having enough money to walk into Macy's instead of Wal-Mart, but alas, that's not the reality for alot of common folks. You know, common folks, those guys who fix, repair, build and install everything you take for granted and won't give up in your fossil-fuel burning lifestyle.

I guess you must be yet another one who dresses nice everyday and drives your nifty clean little car to your nifty clean little office each day so you can sit on your butt and push paper around while you harp on about how the rest of us are destroying your pristine environment as you look out your climate controlled cubicle into the world of reality for the rest of us.

I also love the way you guys dramatize everything. There's a huge drought going on here? Where? Last time I checked, my supermarket had plenty of foodstuffs in it for sale at regular prices. Is the sky falling too?

Those of us who work with our hands, have families to support and have'nt been to some fancy law school so we can lie and flap our jaws for a living or whatever consider job loss in this country it's number one priority, NOT KYOTO. Until elitist (yes, I like that word because it fits so well) libs realize this, you can pretty much just count on getting votes from the preppy office-worker type libs while you alienate further millions of blue collar-base workers. Good luck, and have a nice drive home in that nifty car back to your nifty house with that nifty furnace from your nifty air conditioned office.

[PaulaFarrell]

65. I'm sorry your life is so sad

That you feel compelled to attack people who are most sympathetic to your problems (Dems and environmentalists). If it makes you feel better to imagine I'm rich and elitist, go ahead. I can stand it.

[Darranar]

2. That is, planning for future human survival may restrict corporate profit.

I weep in sadness.

[drhilarius]

3. Well, now that he's got a cushy seat w/ the Carlyle Group...

he doesn't want to do anything that may diminish his profits.

[Gnostic]

4. This is one issue

The Dems prize that I simply cannot agree with.

Why, can you tell me, is it OK for China to be exempt? It is'nt bad enough they already have taken complete control over manufacturing and the consummable goods of our economy? Now, to make things even SWEETER for that communist regime that crushed Tiannamen and shot down US soldiers in Nam and points missiles at us, they can run their numerous sweat shops free of any environmental annoyances while we make it even HARDER for us to compete over here.

Is there some kind of "China First" agenda going on?

I won't buy the "we had it like that in OUR industrial revolution so now it's their turn". Bull. Too bad for them. Sorry, I'm not going to cry over the communist regime in Beijing having it a little tougher.

But then I may be biased. I live in Alaska, so therefor, I SUPPORT global warming! :eyes:

[Darranar]

5. Are you for or against the continued survival of the human species?

That is what the question comes down to, and most of the agonized muttering about how this treaty is "badly worded" or "harmful to the economy" is nothing but a smoke-screen for the desire of corporate power to socialize the costs behind their profits.

[Gnostic]

6. No I'm not

But if I were in Bush's shoes I would'nt have signed that worthless scrap of paper either, and i can't stand Bush as much as the next lib.

It would actually have made me MORE suspicious of the government's agenda if it would have been signed in it's present wording. China and countries like it already control our markets and consummable economy. Job outsourcing, the works. All with DC's traitorous approval. And now you want to take it one step FURTHER by making it EASIER for globalist corporations to set up sweat shops there while our own industry gets the final death blow handed to it. Cute.

Tell me, what kind of car you drive? Is it an import? I bet it is. Good for you. How about most of the goods you buy and consume everyday? I bet you don't even think TWICE before you buy something that has "made in China" stamped on it. To hell with American workers and our chance to fairly compete, just clamp down on our own industry and let your communist dictator friends in Beijing skate?

Wonderful logic.

Hey, how's that fossil fuel burning furnace working in your big cozy house anyway? I'm a plumber, so I'm just curious, Mr. Environment.

[Democat]

10. "I can't stand Bush as much as the next lib"?

Very interesting choice of words!

[Darranar]

50. The United States is the biggest polluter on the face of the earth.

This destructive waste is, pure and simple, a threat to continued human existence.

The correct path to take, then, is to reduce that quantity of destructive waste.

That is what Kyoto calls for, and as such I am completely in favor of it.

The American working class and the American economy would both encounter inconveniences in the event of global warming.

[Gnostic]

51. Kyoto calls for....

....unrestrained industrial output in China and various other countries who, all combined, put out larger amounts of pollutants than we do, and soon definitely will be as China continues to expand it's industrial sector at mind blowing speed and enormity.

At the same time, you want to place heaps of controls on our own damaged and barely hanging on industrial sector, and make it even sweeter for American globalists to pack up and move ops east.

I have asked several enviro-types on this thread what they actually do for a living and I have YET to get a single response. May I now ask you as well?

It is very convenient to call for such controls without considering the resultant job loss that will occur if such regulations are'nt applied evenly across the globe and without a mandate to stop outsourcing, if you yourself don't happen to be one of those actually affected.

Put up or shutup. Some of us have to make a living in factories and industry, we are'nt all like you.

[Darranar]

59. China's emissions per capita are far lower than that of the US.

Put simply, as far as climate change goes, the US is a great problem, China is far less of one.

Do you want the US to be kept to China's level? What about twice that? Three times? Even such an unbalanced standard would involve drastic reductions on the part of the US.

What you are really advocating is a double standard, a far higher limit for the US than for China.

[Gnostic]

64. No

I am not advocating a far higher limit for the US. I am saying that China and company should have the SAME controls, and before any treaty like Kyoto is signed, that we need legislation barring any more US firms from relocating and outsourcing to them, since, after all, without any controls on them like the ones placed here and without such legislation, it's just rolling out the red carpet for more American conglomerates and globalists to pack up and move there.

God, I've said this a million times, and you still twist my words around.

I'm ALL FOR Kyoto. ONCE, and ONLY, after anti-outsourcing legialation is passed. Without the latter, you can just forget the former, OK? I've had enough of seeing American industry get destroyed and it's competitiveness disappearing. We already are faced with an impossible competition in the form of wages, and I am awaiting GM's bankruptcy announcement any day now. And you want to make it tougher, and make it more attractive for EVERY company to pack up.

I'm not about to vote for a free give-away to an enemy of this republic while we further bog down our own industry. Why don't we just sell everything to them? Or GIVE IT AWAY to them? Then we won't have any pollution at all, because everything will be made in China and the rest of us will be over there working for mainland families as nannies and cooks if we can get across their border.

[Gnostic]

7. A proposition

Tell ya what, here's what I propose.

You can have your Kioto treaty on one condition.

Well, actually two.

First, and BEFORE any treaty is actually signed, I want to see legislation passed that prohibits any more American based companies from moving operations to China or any other nation that finds itself exempt under the treaty's present wording. Under threat of confiscation and nationalization of assets even. No more job outsourcing, no setting up yet another sweat shop somewhere that is totally exempt from any environmental controls, fair labor practices and pay, etc, etc.

And this legislation would be needed to be passed BEFORE the Kioto is signed.

Then I'll be all for it. But as it stands, it's nothing but a big get out of jail free card to sworn enemies of our republic for the continuation of their superiority over us in the marketable goods and manufacturing sectors.

The Chinese already don't need even one gun or missile in their army's arsenals to take us over and invade. They are already doing it, with DC's and Corporate America's traitorous blessings, as the ignorant masses make yet another trip to their local Wally-World to buy yet another piece of chinese made garbage that took their job away and forced them to live in the trailer home they're waving that American flag over. hahaha

China already is the world's number TWO oil and fossil fuel consumer and importer. They are already having a huge industrial revolution of their own, fueled by American consumer buying habits and corporate america outsourcing/profit seeking. As Frank Zappa said once, we are well on our way to becoming a nation of waitresses and waiters, and with the Kioto, you just want to expedite that trend.

[0rganism]

11. So what's the down side?

Other than that the legislation you mentioned would be harder to pass through congress than the Kyoto treaty itself, I like it plenty. You run on a platform like that, and you've got my vote.

Whenever globalists offer their apologetics for sweatshopping and the loan-shark antics of the IMF, they speak to promoting economic "development". Well, I don't see a whole lot of incentive for the maquiladora owners to "develop" diddly shit, cos the more they do, the less their own holdings are worth relative to the surrounding population. What I do see is a lot of economic degradation and ecological devastation written off as an externality to some 3rd-world fat-cat's Swiss bank assets.

So hell yeah, let's tie those duty-free imports to minimum wage laws, workers rights, and economic standards comparable to our own. Let's reserve MFN status for countries with at least our own levels of human rights and environmental protection. You've got a deal.

[Gnostic]

13. The problem

"Other than that the legislation you mentioned would be harder to pass through congress than the Kyoto treaty itself"

Therin lies the inherent problem with Kioto, IMO. And it's complete downfall as far as it benefitting our own nation in both the short and long terms, irregardless of any environmental positives it may contain. I also, on a simpler level, just can't fathom the sense of letting one enormous industrial nation getting away with whatever contaminants it wants to spew on one side of the planet and not the other. This is supposed to help things? Or just prolong the agony awhile longer?

Thanks for the thumbs up, though unfortuantely as you succinctly pointed out it's a pipe dream.

[IndianaGreen]

9. Let us know when you can grow grain in Alaska

The nation's breadbasket may well turn into a new Sahara all thanks to global warming.

[Gnostic]

12. A warning

This is a warning to all Dems who pretend to want to take back our congress in 06 and the WH in 08.

Drop the environmental nonsense.

There is a HUGE base of workers in this country who are against it. You know, the guys who BUILT the house you live in, the guys who BUILT your car perhaps, the guys who repair your electrical wiring and plumbing, the guys who BUILT YOUR COMMUNITY.

These guys don't want to lose any more American jobs to communists in Beijing. They don't want to see their trade unions busted and torn down any more than they already are. By having fewer skilled jobs to go around in the economy, those unions will be hurting. They don't want to see big American tool and steel plants close their doors and move ops to some Asian dictatorship because the owners of the plant decided there was NO WAY IN HELL they could ever compete with their competition overseas. Not even if they gave away manufactured goods for FREE.

When was the last time you even SAW an all American made tool for instance? We used to DOMINATE that industry, and now you can't even find a drill or power saw anymore that does'nt have some component at least, if not the entire enchilada made in China.

Keep pushing the Kioto thing without demanding a change in wording so that the current trend in outsourcing does'nt get even larger, and you're going to find a rough time among common American working class voters. Right now, people are more worried about their livlihoods than the environment. Mark my words.

[Democat]

15. " Drop the environmental nonsense."

You are getting funnier with each post. :)

[IndianaGreen]

16. "communists in Beijing"?

If you think China is communist you need a new prescription for glasses. Our jobs went to Mexico, thank you very much!

[Democat]

17. Everywhere outside of the red states is communist

Especially China and Canada.

[Gnostic]

18. Our jobs went to Mexico???

Hmm, let me guess, you must be a Wal-Mart manager?

[Democat]

19. Or a Communist?

Maybe he never got his hands dirty?

[Gnostic]

22. Maybe alot of you

Never have, or did at one time and forgot it, and don't mind having everything you own made in some rice paddy in Indochina as your own jobs get sucked out like a bad liposuction procedure.

[IndianaGreen]

27. Maybe you are having too much Merlot

You should try a Miller Lite.

[Gnostic]

29. I don't drink

Unfortunately, my drug of choice has an unconstitutional prohibition on it. So I prefer to remain sober.

At times though, when discussing such matters at hand, I AM tempted to a bit of libation if for nothing else than to be able to say, F*** it.

[IndianaGreen]

32. Bush doesn't drink either

Perhaps you should roll one.

[IndianaGreen]

24. General Electric, Thomson Electronics, to name two

shutdown their plants in Indianapolis and Bloomington and moved the jobs to Mexico. NAFTA has caused more job losses here than China.

[Gnostic]

25. Not comparing

I realize everything from the small maquiladoras to giant industrial plants moving to Vicente Bush's neighborhood is'nt doing us any good either, but I'm not comparing. The fact is, huge swaths of industrial capacity in this country has either moved to China and thereabouts or completely shut their doors due to the impossibility of competing with firms manufacturing in China. Take a good look around your neighborhood Wal-Mart sometime (I'm SURE you have one nearby) and try to find something that IS'NT made in China. Try to find a power tool that is'nt either made in China, and, yes, Mexico.

It's all part of the globalist plan, and I don't see Kioto, in it's present form, helping it at ALL.

[Gnostic]

20. Tell me then

What are they? Buddies of yours?

If you think China is such a grand place....well...

I don't understand the reasoning here. Let's enact a foreign assembled treaty as law in our own land while a nation that is diametrically opposed to our very constitution and form of government gets to skate? Are you purposefully TRYING to cajole American globalists into moving EVERYTHING overseas?

Perhaps we could all just become handservants and housemaids and nannies for rich Mainland Chinese families?

[Democat]

21. Some people in China have dirty hands

Doesn't that make them great working class people?

[Gnostic]

23. Yes

The Chinese even traditionally are very hard working, thrifty and conscientious workers and managers.

The people of China are unfortunately suppressed and enslaved by a corrupt communist dictatorship with no qualms about slaughtering it's own citizenry to squash rebellion and keep in power.

The people themselves are awesome. One day they may finally have the government they deserve.

But for now, I view the Chinese government as an adversary and an untrustworthy competitor for supremacy of the global economy. And I view American corporations doing business with them in order to take advantage of the complete lack of environmental controls and labor law and fair wages as traitorous, and I view the Kioto Treaty as a catalyst for making it even more appetizing for these corporations to take away more of our jobs and industry to make a literal enemy of this republic richer while the ignorant masses go to Wal-Mart and buy yet another item made in **** (fill in the blank, some Asian communist dictatorship preferably).

[IndianaGreen]

26. China is not communist

China is an autocratic capitalist country being run by so-called "red capitalists." As the wealth of the new elites increases, so has the class differences in what used to be a classless society.

Oh sure, they still wave the red flags and have Mao as an icon, but that's about the only thing communist they have left. This is not unlike institutions such as the Vatican that have all the icons and trappings of Christianity but are in fact an autocratic institution having nothing in common with the founder of the faith.

You shouldn't listen to Rush for educational purposes.

[Gnostic]

28. What's your point?

Don't obfuscate the issue at hand with fancy labelling and name tagging. OK, so let's go with your rather obvious assertions. Let's call them "Red Capitalists" instead of commies. I would'nt want to sound anywhere right of Lenin around here.

How does this change anything? Are they now our pals? Can we just throw open wide our trade with them and allow every American manufacturer to simply close up here and build large sweatshops over there free of ANY American style regulatory oversights with little to no consequences except higher profit margins? Hey, I know. We have a huge deficit thanks to the mal-administration of the prsent rethugs. Maybe we could just sell off entire chunks of national forest land to them, or (gasp) one of our giant oil industries (the horra, the horra!)

I guess that makes them A-OK in your book now, and it's cool and the gang if we lose all our jobs to them, because, after all, they are really just like US.

[IndianaGreen]

31. You are the one that hijacked this thread about Blair and Kyoto

to spout your Pat Buchanan xenophobic talking points.

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Gnostic]

14. The nation's industrial sector

has already turned into a rust belt.

So it only stands to reason?

I wonder what it is you do for a living.

Do you, by chance, get your hands dirty?

[acmavm]

37. Interesting, he didn't answer. Yet.

I enjoyed watching this volley back and forth. I am wondering about that poster though and what he does for a living.

[Gnostic]

46. Would'nt hold my breath

if I were you.

I am fairly confident that I have types like that pretty much pegged for who they are. The vast majority of enviro-nuts generally don't get their hands dirty for a living, and most don't even have families to feed at home or worry about how they are going to pay the next heating bill or mortgage payment. They are types who own nice homes with large fossil-fuel burning furnaces, and drive nifty little new cars and never have to withstand the cold or heat for the more than 2 minutes it takes for them to park their climate controlled cars and walk into their climate controlled office buildings to "work", or more accurately, to push paper around and flap their jaws on cell phones. They generally wear stuff like Dockers and nice clean casual dress clothes, instead of having to pull on a pair of arctic Carrharts in the mornings with thermal underwear underneath so they can go and wrench on pipes all day in the freezing cold wondering if they'll be laid off or not next week.

This is why I refer to them as "elitist libs". They are so out of touch with the common blue-collar working person of this country it's pathetic. And they can't see past their own hypocrisies. They harp on about the environment while at the same time enjoying all the luxuries of a fossil fuel burning society. I have yet to see any of them move into a cave and ride a bicycle to their offices and sell that nice big gas burning furnace that keeps them so cozy at night. But the thing that really ticks me off is they are usually the ones who won't be affected by further industrial job loss, so it's easy for them to push the enviro-nazi nonsense while at the same time completely ignoring the consequences for us lowly scumbag workers who DO get our hands dirty. Elitist, yes.

Protect my economy before you protect my environment, because without a means to support myself, the environment is'nt doing me any good. That's the general concensus among millions of American blue-collar voters, and elitist libs are doing the Dem party no favors by further alienating that base.

[demobrit]

34. Blair is becoming yesterdays man

Blair is on his way out .The UK has signed up to the Kyoto treaty and is bound by it

[blindpig]

39. The delusion that we can have eternal economic growth will destroy us.n/t

[Gnostic]

49. Sure

You are absolutely correct.

So, the solution is to make it more tasty for American manufacturing to move on over to China with no enviro-controls while we serve the death blow to our own industry with piles of controls.

Are you, by chance, an attorney? Maybe a real estate broker?

I KNOW you are'nt a laid-off steel worker, so it's gotta be something similar.

[blindpig]

52. Did I say that?

The solution is zero population growth, sustainability and wealth redistribution.

Real estate broker? Those are fighting words, friend. They are destroying my world.:grr:

Your assumptions about me and my motivations prove what they say about assuming.....

[Gnostic]

54. Answer then

"Your assumptions about me"

OK, yeh, I'm assuming. Then prove me wrong and answer the damn question.

I will bet my next paycheck that if yet another plant, mill or factory gets shut down here in favor of a new sweatshop in China that you yourself will not be affected.

Am I right so far?

Oh, and that nonsense about zero population growth and "wealth redistribution" are fairly tales and you know it. It'll never happen. Pipe dreams. Can we play in reality instead of utopian fantasy for a minute?

[blindpig]

66. Dead ass wrong.

For your information I am an evil pawnbroker. Let that be a lesson to all of those who by that "go with the flow" bullshit, look where it got me. Not what I had in mind but the hand I've been dealt. Be assured, my income is less than that of a skilled worker, partially because I'm a soft touch. In the past I have been a zookeeper, sheet rocker, worked in a concrete pipe mill and textile warehouses.

I am located in the piedmont mill country of South Carolina. The working class here has been devastated by the de-industrialization of America. Now the simpleminded might believe that the impoverishment of the working class is something to my advantage. Such is not the case for several reasons. If people don't have disposable income they can't buy stuff from me. If they can't redeem their stuff it piles up on my shelves because they aren't buying either. Furthermore the absurd cheapness of imported goods prevents me from being able to offer decent loans to folks who bring their stuff to me. Believe it or not, my shop is sucking wind right now. I'm just trying to hang on until retirement.

I don't know how the fuck you came to your conclusions based upon my 1st post. I am to a large degree an economic nationalist, I believe a country should produce what it needs as much as is possible. I believe that value added jobs should be kept at home. I believe that the workers should get the bears share of that added value. I also believe that industry should be utterly environmentally responsible, that we should strive to have a closed system as much as is possible. The pitting of the environment against workers is a propaganda ploy of the ruling class, same as they do with race. Have you bought that package?

Go ahead, flame away.

[blindpig]

67. Fairy tales.

What a sad creature you are. The status quo is all there is, all there will be.

Difficult yes, but not impossible. The alternative to not controlling the growth of human population will be the crash of civilization and possibly the biosphere. To believe otherwise is to believe in fairy tales.

As you are speaking as an advocate of working people don't you think that the capitalist are fucking the people sideways? So what's wrong with them getting a greater share of the fruits of their labor?

on edit: Damn, if I'd known that sucker was pizza I
wouldn't have wasted my time. Just a sucker for trolls I guess.:argh:

[rfkrfk]

40. what does 'a more sensitive framework', mean in English ?

the text seems to be some type of
computerized translation

[muriel_volestrangler]

41. I think it means one that can be exploited for profit

like Enron did. You know, none of these pesky definite laws; just 'arrangements' of contracts, quotas, and bribes. Oops, did I say bribes? Sorry ,I meant 'incentives'.

[Monkey see Monkey Do]

42. If I wasn't so buoyed up by the Blunkett resignation

I'd be going ape-shit crazy about now. How many fucking times can you betray us Blair?

[leesa]

43. I can't WAIT for the day we find out what the Bush Crime Syndicate has on

Blair to make him so irrational.

[Endangered Specie]

53. Labour is turning more right than the damn Tories.

shame.

[Uncle Joe]

69. PBS will be telecasting a special tonight

"Global Warming: The Signs and The Science" at 7:00pm CST.