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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-05 12:04 PM
Original message
Bush Panel Unanimously Backs Two Alternatives for Simplifying Tax Rules
I rather like the idea of converting the current deduction to a 15 percent tax credit so that people who don't currently itemize deductions could claim it, and I am OK with the credit applying to only the first $227,000 of a mortgage in cheaper markets, and up to to $412,000 in more expensive markets, since the two plans allow home sales to be "tax-free" with an exclusion to $600,000 for a married couple up from the current $500,000 (the rule that homeowners must currently live in their homes an aggregate of two of the previous five years to exclude capital gains will remain unchanged). But why are we forcing employers to offer their employees fewer dollars toward the cost of their group health - making employees pay $5000 of the $11000 urban cost is a good thing? All this so we can offset the cost of killing the Alt Min tax that rich folks almost exclusively - in dollars - pay?



http://www.bloomberg.com/news/economy/politics.html

Bush Panel Unanimously Backs Two Alternatives for Simplifying Tax Rules

Nov. 1 (Bloomberg) -- <snip>The first of the two proposals would be a ``simplified income tax'' that abolishes most deductions, reduces the number of tax rates to four from six and sets the top rate at 33 percent, down from 35 percent. Dividends would effectively be tax- free to individual shareholders and the wealthiest Americans would face a top effective capital gains rate of 8.25 percent, down from the current range of 15 percent to 35 percent (meaning working for a living gives you a higher tax burden than living off of investments). <snip>

As an alternative, the panel recommended what it called a ``Growth and Investment Tax Plan'' that resembles a modified flat tax. The plan rewards savings, removes tax incentives to borrow, stimulates business investment and simplifies tax filing for individuals. <snip>

This second proposal would reorder tax rules for companies, financial markets and the economy by abolishing deductions for interest paid except for financial institutions and allowing companies to fully expense purchases they now must depreciate over time. Individuals would face three tax brackets for their wage income -- 15 percent, 25 percent and 30 percent -- and would face a 15 percent tax on all forms of investment income.

Both plans would repeal the corporate alternative minimum tax and would tax companies only on their domestic profits, jettisoning a decades-old policy of taxing income no matter where it is earned in the world. The simplified income tax would set the rate for large businesses at 31.5 percent, and the modified flat tax proposal sets it at 30 percent. The top corporate rate is now 35 percent. <snip>


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Sandpiper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-05 12:06 PM
Response to Original message
1. "Simplifying the Tax Code" = GOP speak for...
Giving the rich another tax cut.
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Ernesto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-05 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #1
31. St. ronnie "simplified" the tax code in the late 80's.
Edited on Tue Nov-01-05 06:47 PM by Ernesto
What happened?.... I & the rest of the middle class "simply" paid MORE in taxes. Very "simple".... This is your garden variety repuke, "under the radar" method to raise taxes. Ho-hum, the beat goes on........
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shoelace414 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-05 12:06 PM
Response to Original message
2. Call it simplification since we're on to them
but basically it's a way to cut capital gains tax, lower the top tax bracket remove instead of fix the AMT.

the Republican class war continues.
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Mithras61 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-05 12:09 PM
Response to Original message
3. I have a simplification plan...
The Gov't gets everything over $250,000/year. Everything under that is tax free. No exceptions. No deductions.


Hey, it isn't6 any stupider than some of the other garbage being thrown out as a plan, and I've given it nearly as much thought as they have...
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jobycom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-05 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. LOL!
:rofl: Love the last sentence!
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cpamomfromtexas Donating Member (453 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-05 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #3
29. Love your plan, and you're right
Not any "stupider" than their plans.

I have this plan, how about dividends and capital gains are taxed at the regular rates UNLESS IT CAN BE PROVEN THAT REAL AMERICAN JOBS ARE CREATED AS A RESULT OF THAT INVESTMENT.

That will clear up the BS claims that RICH PEOPLE CREATE JOBS. CUSTOMERS WILLING TO PAY FOR AN ITEM CREATE JOBS.

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sinkingfeeling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-05 12:10 PM
Response to Original message
4. Think about this again. It is another tax cut for the wealthiest and
corporations. To tax international companies on their domestic profits only while allowing them to fully expense purchases and reducing the top rate, is another big hit to revenue. To eliminate personal deductions ($3500/person ?) and replace it with a single 15% tax credit while adding the cost of employer health plans as income, isn't going to help many middle Americans.
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-05 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. I agree - but a tax credit approach is better than a deduction approach
at least IMHO !! With a deduction approach the rich get back more dollars than the poor for the same deduction.

:-)

But I agree the health changes and others are just to screw the non-investment class.
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-05 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #4
14. So people with lots of kids lose a lot of their exemptions??
That won;t be welcomed by a lot of Georgie's devotees..

and guess what? when you lower the percentage on the people with TONS of money, the shortfall WILL be made up by the rest of us..It may be hidden, but we will be making up that shortfall.. we always do :(
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cpamomfromtexas Donating Member (453 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-05 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #14
30. HEY MAYBE THOSE MORMONS WILL RETHINK BEING PUBS
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-05 12:12 PM
Response to Original message
5. gee, it's no surprise that as a middle class wage earner...
Edited on Tue Nov-01-05 12:12 PM by mike_c
...neither of these tax proposals would help me much, if at all. On the other hand, if I was wealthy, and made most of my income from investments rather than wages, these would be windfalls of epic proportions. This is just another way to shift more and more of the tax burden lower and lower down the income ladder.
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jobycom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-05 12:12 PM
Response to Original message
6. So corporations would pay lower taxes, wealthy investors would get
a huge tax break so they would contribute even less to society (no labor, and less taxes), and somehow we would balance the budget anyway? There's only one place left to get the money.

It doesn't really matter how many deductions they cut out, eventually deductions will be added back in. That's just too powerful a tool, legitimate or exploitive, for government to abandon. The most effective way government has of directing investment is through tax deductions. They won't give that up. Nor should they, IMHO.

It's mercantilism, not capitalism, that the Republicans believe in.
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-05 01:06 PM
Response to Original message
9. Some other details of the new proiposals (like a max 8.25% Cap Gain rate)
Of course we eliminate the alternative minimum tax because some lower income folks pay a few dollars under it - fixing it would be too hard! - false!)
Now the investment class needs to have Reduced investment taxes, so dividends from domestic earnings would be tax-free as would 75 percent of the capital gains you receive. The other 25 percent of gains would be subject to your marginal (or top) tax rate with the effect being capital gains taxed at rates between 3.75% to 8.25% for those in the highest tax bracket(e.g., in the 33 percent tax bracket receiving $100 in capital gains one has $75 tax-free with $25 taxed at 33%, or $8.25 - welcome to the top Cap gains rate of 8.25%) - This is a MUST else the current 15% dividen tax rate dies after 2008!

But our friends are willing in the 2nd proposal to settle for just keeping the current 15% and applying it forever to dividends, capital gains and interest.

The marriage penalty remains - there is no filing the lower of proposal - but family credits and taxation of Social Security benefits for couples would be double those of individuals.

And it is time to punish states that choose a higher tax better government approach by telling their citizens (indeed all citizens) that federal deduction of the state and local tax deductions are gone (or to put it in the words of former Senator John Breaux of Louisiana, "If people in California want to pay extra taxes to have their trash picked up, people in Texas shouldn't have to subsidize it."

Then we reduce the number of tax brackets - in the panel's first proposal from the current 6 to 4 - namely 15%, 25%, 30% and 33%. And under the second proposal, we combines the income tax with a progressive consumption tax, and have only 3 brackets: 15%, 25% and 30%.

Tax exempt savings have too many words associated with the accounts, so we will reduce the number of names used to describe tax free accounts. Likewise profit sharing/IRA/money purchase/401k, etc would have a new name "Save at Work Account" with a $10,000 limit and no income earned or are you in a pension plan rules.

Very important is a new filing form that reduces the current 75 line to 32, and the number of the number of schedules, forms and worksheets from 52 to 10 - somehow this meets the 4 X 6-inch index card goal.

And just to make sure you realize this is really another Bush "tax decrease", we get two new credits: one for family and one for work (but each of which would just be taking the place of a multitude of credits and exemptions currently in place).

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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-05 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #9
15. Message to Mr Breaux..
Edited on Tue Nov-01-05 02:06 PM by SoCalDem
So if people of Louisiana choose to create shoddy flood walls and levees, and allow builders to develop in unsafe areas,and continually divert repair money into "other things", people in california should pay to rebuild a Louisiana city from the ground up...with OUR tax dollars???
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msongs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-05 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. or people in CA who choose to live in earthquake prone areas too?
we all know it is coming some day but we still choose to live here. got my earthquake kit and 25,000 gallons of drinking water handy :-)

Msongs
www.msongs.com/political-shirts.htm
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-05 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. California (and you and I) has done A LOT to prepare
Tons of state money has been spent in retrofitting. From what I read about Mr Breaux, he was more interested in getting himself set up and in grabbing petro-dollars (at the health expense of the poor) to care much about the infrastructure of NOLA.. I guess they gambled that faith would save them.
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Pale_Rider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-05 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #15
22. For every $1 in Federal Taxes a Californian pays ...
... the state gets back $0.78 in Federal spending. For Louisiana, for every $1, a Louisianian pays in Federal taxes, their state gets back $1.47. Send Breaux a crying towel.

http://www.taxfoundation.org/research/show/266.html
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-05 01:17 PM
Response to Original message
10. links to report
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-05 01:27 PM
Response to Original message
11. ANYBODY who STILL thinks that Republicans
will help ANYONE other than the extremely wealthy is OUT OF THEIR IGNORANT MINDS.
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Mister K Donating Member (338 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-05 01:35 PM
Response to Original message
12. Interesting...I wonder how it will shake out for self-employed people
I am self employed (independent consultant and own my own corp) and draw both a salary and pay myself corporate distributions (dividens). I guess my corporate distributions become tax free and I am only taxed on salary?

Anyone have any ideas on this?
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Rainscents Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-05 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. I just heard on Thom Hartmann show, this will hurt small business
big time!!! Their tax will got from 15% to 30%! Can you believe this shit??? Corporates wants to drive out all the small business!
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sadiesworld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-05 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. Give the WTO another decade or two...
and it will be illegal, or at least practically impossible, to start many types of small businesses.

These Masters of the Universe aren't interested in competition.

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zara Donating Member (470 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-05 02:46 PM
Response to Original message
19. Read the fine print to see if plan amounts to rape of blue states.
John Breaux comes from a(n increasingly) red state.
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-05 03:30 PM
Response to Original message
20. No flat tax, modified or not. Period.
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toopers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-05 03:35 PM
Response to Original message
21. Let's go to a national sales tax . . .
and get rid of this outdated and complicated tax system!
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headlouse Donating Member (215 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-05 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. National sales taxes hurt the poor worse
A sales tax that makes products cost a bit more is not that big of a deal to wealthy individuals but to the penny pinching poor it is.

Additionally, the National Sales Tax is a terrible idea as it punishes consumption. Whatever you think of this consumer society it is what keeps this economy going. This is why you want more money in the hands of lower income -- it increases their consumption of products. Wealthy people may by a lot of crap but they can only buy so much and then they just put the rest in savings and investments. Lower income people when given more money will pretty much immediately buy more stuff, which has a more immediate positive impact on the economy.

All this is way a progressive income tax that targets the wealthy is better then a national sales tax, which effectively taxes the poor and slows consumption, which is what makes this economy going.
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Bush_Eats_Beef Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-05 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. Are you serious? Have you read anything other than the Boortz book?
From Bruce Bartlett:

"You know, I'm not exactly sure how big the national sales tax is going to have to be, but it's the kind of interesting idea that we ought to explore seriously," Bush said, according to a Reuters report.

August 09, 2004, 8:47 a.m.

A National Sales Tax No Vote: The rates would be vastly higher than what you might suspect.

House Speaker Dennis Hastert created a flurry of excitement in Republican circles the other day when it was reported that he is proposing the abolition of the Internal Revenue Service in his new book. This would be accomplished by eliminating all existing federal taxes and replacing them with a national retail sales tax. There is no indication of what tax rate Speaker Hastert thinks would be necessary to replace all federal revenue. A current proposal by Rep. John Linder (R., Ga.) says that a 23 percent rate would be adequate. But such a low rate can only be sustained by making completely absurd assumptions about what would be taxed. Every serious economist who has ever looked at this question has concluded that a vastly higher rate would in fact be needed.

An unstated assumption is that the 23 percent rate proposed by Linder is comparable to existing state and local sales taxes, where the tax comes on top of the purchase price. Thus, a 5 percent sales tax on a $1 purchase comes to $1.05. But that’s not the way the Linder plan works. He deceptively calculates the rate as if the tax is part of the purchase price. He calls this the tax-inclusive rate. Calculating the rate the normal way people are accustomed to with state and local sales taxes would require a 30 percent tax rate, not 23 percent. When Congress’s Joint Committee on Taxation scored the Linder proposal four years ago it estimated that it would actually require a tax-inclusive rate of 36 percent, not 23 percent, to equal current federal revenues. Calculating the rate in a normal, tax-exclusive manner would mean a 57 percent rate.

Economist Bill Gale of the Brookings Institution notes that supporters of the sales tax assume that there will be no tax evasion under their proposal and that the size of government will not grow, even though they would send a large annual check to every American in order to offset the regressivity of the tax. Making realistic assumptions, Gale estimates that the tax-inclusive rate, comparable to Linder’s proposed 23 percent rate, would actually have to be about 50 percent. A rate comparable to existing sales taxes would be close to 100 percent. And let us not forget that state and local sales taxes would come on top of the federal sales tax, pushing the total rate even higher. Obviously, the federal government is not going to impose tax rates this high, nor would anyone pay them if it did. There would be a massive tax revolt.

From Nancy Pelosi:

http://democraticleader.house.gov/press/releases.cfm?pressReleaseID=701

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
September 23, 2004

Pelosi: ‘National Sales Tax Would be Burden for Middle Class Americans, But Boon for the Wealthy’

Washington, D.C. -- House Democratic Leader Nancy Pelosi held a news conference in the Capitol this afternoon with Congressmen Charles Rangel of New York, and John Spratt and James Clyburn, both of South Carolina, to denounce a Republican plan for a national sales tax. Below are Pelosi’s remarks and a fact sheet about the proposal:

“Today, we are here to highlight one of the many clear contrasts between Democrats and Republicans: Republicans want to undermine our American values of prosperity and fairness with a new national sales tax of at least 30 percent and as high as 50 percent or more on all goods, including homes and cars.

“A national sales tax would be a burden for middle class Americans, but a boon for the wealthy. Families with children would lose their current tax deductions, and seniors would essentially be taxed twice.

“This proposal is ludicrous and should be dismissed outright. Yet Speaker Hastert wrote about the national sales tax and the flat tax in his new book, saying ‘both of these ideas are worthy of consideration.’ And Majority Leader Tom DeLay is co-sponsoring the bill, and has said: ‘It is high time the debate about the flat tax and a national consumption tax moved out of Washington think tanks and into American living rooms. That's why I have signedon to Congressman John Linder's proposal to scrap the current tax code altogether and replace it with a national sales tax.’

“The Republican plan would make it harder for middleclass families to make ends meet. A national sales tax would undermine the American value of prosperity. For example, cars that cost $20,000 would cost an additional $6,000 under this proposal. Just wait until the car dealers hear about this proposal. Prescription drugs that cost $100 would now cost $130. New homes, insurance premiums, brokerage fees, and gasoline would all be heavily taxed to replace revenue brought in by the current tax system.

“It would wipe out our system of progressive taxation. A national sales tax would undermine the American value of fairness.

“The American people should be aware that the Republicans’ primary tax agenda is a new national sales tax.”

The Republican Plan to Raise Taxes on the Middle Class

All over the country, middle class Americans are being squeezed byRepublican policies that have lost 1.7 million private sector jobs; allowed the price of health care, education, and gas to skyrocket; and created record deficits. Now Republicans are proposing a new national sales tax that would increase taxes for the typical middle class by about 50 percent. Democrats know that approach is wrong. Instead of raising taxes on the middle class, Democrats have pledged to promote prosperity and fairness by enacting middle class tax relief, creating new jobs, and eliminating tax loopholes so all Americans pay their fair share.

GOP SALES TAX HIKES A FAMILY’S TAX BURDEN BY 50 PERCENT

The new GOP national sales tax would replace all personal and corporate income taxes, Social Security, Medicare, and payroll taxes, and gift and estate taxes with a new national sales tax on goods like groceries, clothing, new home sales and apartment rents, and health care services. This new GOP tax would be applied on top of existing state sales taxes. This proposal would increase taxes by about $3,200 a year for 80 percent of taxpayers, and potentially more for some families.

MIDDLE CLASS FAMILIES SQUEEZED AGAIN

Families with children. Families with children are hit the hardest, as this proposal would eliminate all the current law tax benefits for these families, including the child tax credit. A middle class family with four children with a combined income of $65,000 would face an increase of more than $5,000 in their tax liability.

New homeowners. The Republican tax hike proposal would eliminate the tax deduction that families get on their home mortgages and apply this new sales percent tax to the cost of a home. If a family buys a new house listed for $150,000, the new tax brings the actual purchase price to $195,000.

Jump in property taxes. The Republican sales tax hike would require states to send an additional $300 billion to the federal government in sales taxes – a tax increase that states would immediately pass on to residents. Arkansas, Delaware, Kentucky, Hawaii, and New Jersey could all see property tax increases higher than 400 percent. The lowest state property tax hike possible – in New Hampshire – would still be more than 70 percent.

Gas and electricity. The average family would pay an additional 60 cents a gallon for gasoline – a new tax that will hit families in rural areas particularly hard. Families with large home heating or cooling bills also will be harmed.

SENIORS FACE NEW TAXES

Beneficiaries pay twice for Social Security and pension benefits. Most Social Security benefits and a portion of pension payments are exempt from income tax. But this proposal requires seniors to pay the new sales tax – meaning that seniors are now being taxed twice for their Social Security, once when they pay the payroll taxes and again when they pay the sales taxes.

Threaten Solvency of the Medicare Trust Fund. Medicare would be required to pay the new sales tax as well, forcing the program into insolvency in five years. If this proposal were enacted, Medicare would run out of funds in 2009.

Undermines pension coverage. The new GOP sales tax hike would reduce the incentives employers currently get for offering their employees a pension plan. The American Academy of Actuaries has concluded that “pension plans would quickly diminish in number and size and gradually disappear” if a consumption tax, such as the national sales tax were enacted as a substitute to the current income tax.

From The National Retail Federation:

http://www.nrf.com/content/default.asp?folder=press/release2005&file=NRST-comments.htm&bhfv=2&bhqs=1

Retailers File Comments Urging Rejection of Consumption Tax

WASHINGTON, D.C., June 13, 2005 - The National Retail Federation today announced that it has filed comments with the President's Advisory Panel on Federal Tax Reform urging the panel to reject economically risky proposals to replace the nation's income tax system with a consumption tax or to add a new consumption tax on top of existing taxes.

"The United States should not experiment with a brand new tax system that will put our economic future at risk," NRF said. "It is better to engage in substantial reforms of the income tax that are designed to eliminate some of the major complications in the current Internal Revenue Code and stimulate economic growth without causing major economic dislocation."

NRF's remarks came in response to proposals for tax reform that were presented to the Advisory Panel during a series of hearings this spring. The panel asked for public comments on the proposals last month.

NRF on Friday submitted a detailed statement outlining the dangers of various consumption tax proposals. The statement addressed the National Retail Sales Tax proposed by Representative John Linder, R-Va., plans for a Value Added Tax similar to those used in Europe, and other consumption tax proposals.

The NRF statement cited a study commissioned by NRF in 2000 that found that a national sales tax would bring a three-year decline in the economy, a four-year decline in employment and an eight-year decline in consumer spending. The study showed that similar results could be expected if other types of consumption taxes were enacted to replace the current system.

NRF argued that consumption taxes are inherently regressive because low-income families spend virtually their entire incomes while wealthier families have larger percentages of unspent income that would go untaxed.

NRF particularly urged the Advisory Panel to reject proposals to maintain the current tax system while adding a VAT or other new tax that would be used to pay for programs such as Social Security or health care. Doing so would amount to a tax increase rather than tax reform and would provide lawmakers with "a money machine" to finance increases in government spending, NRF said.

From Roth & Co:

http://www.rothcpa.com/archives/cat_tax_reform.php

June 02, 2005
I DON'T THINK HE LIKES THE 'FAIR' TAX

The "Fair Tax," a proposal for a national retail sales tax, has gotten some attention in the tax reform debate. Joseph Thorndike, a columnist for Tax Analysts, isn't quite sold on it:

First, though, we have to sort through an embarrassment of riches: How can we identify the worst quality of a tax that has so many? As numerous critics have pointed out, the Fair Tax would raise too little revenue and prompt too much evasion. Its popularity depends on unreasonable assumptions and misleading descriptions. It would never work as advertised -- a fact that many of its supporters either choose to ignore or secretly celebrate.

But other than that, maybe he likes it.

WHAT IS THE REAL RATE?

Mr. Thorndike points out that the 23% rate touted by Fair Tax supporters is misleading, because it is a "tax inclusive" rate. The 6% tax rate we Polk Countians are accustomed to is "tax exclusive" - it isn't included in the sales tax rate.

Example:

Wally buys a new computer for $1,000, and he pays $60 in sales tax. His "tax exclusive" rate is 6%. His "tax inclusive rate" is 5.66% (60/1060 = 5.66%).

If you compute the "Fair Tax" the way we are used to talking about sales tax rates - tax exclusive - it will apply at a 30% rate. That's a real difference.

Perhaps we are biased, being income tax consultants, but the Fair Tax seems to have some huge practical problems. Two come immediately to mind.

WHEN RATES GET TOO HIGH, PEOPLE CHEAT

Sales taxes are only likely to work if rates are low enough to not interfere with commerce. When combined with state and local taxes, the Fair Tax would burden every trip to Git 'n Go with a 36% or higher surcharge. This is high enough to push many transactions into the E-bay economy.

HIGH SALES TAX RATES THREATEN BUSINESSES THAT COLLECT SALES TAXES

Taxpayers going through their first sales tax audit are astounded at how big the assessments can be. They also know that they aren't as simple as many folks believe. While income taxes are only a problem to the extent your business is profitable, sales taxes apply even when you are losing money, and they apply based on gross receipts - a much larger base than taxable income.

Because sales taxes are computed on a big base, a small error in determining what transactions are subject to tax can lead to a stiff assessment over three years, even at a "low" 6% rate. At a 36% rate, even little errors would be ruinous.

FAIR TAX PROSPECTS?

Mr. Thorndike doesn't think the Fair Tax will survive the tax reform process:

And the winner of this year's prize for Worst Idea in a Serious Public Policy Debate: the Fair Tax. In all likelihood, this plan for a national retail sales tax has already exhausted its 15 minutes of fame. Sometime later this summer, President Bush's commission on federal tax reform will probably put it out of its misery.
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ohtransplant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-05 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #21
25. A national sales tax would be regressive also .
Edited on Tue Nov-01-05 05:25 PM by ohtransplant
How about true simplification?

It could reduce the cost of tax prep and the size of the IRS saving us and the gov't money.

Just a thought...


edit:sp
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Mithras61 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-05 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #21
28. Honestly, why don't we just make it really simple...
The new IRS form could haver this:

"1) Name
2) SSN
3) Address
4) Total Income

Send it to us."

Okay, everyone. Let's get serious for a moment. If you REALLY want Income Tax Reform, let's set the clock back to 1960, and adjust for inflation, and be done with it. The fact is that the Federal Government has spent most of the last forty years making the income tax system increasingly regressive and finding various different loopholes for the very wealthy (those making >$1,000,000 per year) to get out of paying any taxes at all. The "fix" has been in for that long. We'd all be better off under the old fashioned method that put the majority of the tax burden on those most able to pay, and that included corporations.

But it isn't going to happen, because the corporations are now spending nearly as much in political contributions and such as they used to in income taxes (at least compared to their "declared" income, which doesn't include what they "hide" in overseas profits, etc.), so unless we're willing to take back "peoplehood" from corporations, we are wasting our time discussing the "tax" system.

I swear, y'all need to spend more time with David Cay Johnston's http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1591840694/qid=1130881365/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/102-5976069-1113733?v=glance&s=books&n=507846">"Perfectly Legal."
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ohtransplant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-05 04:35 PM
Response to Original message
26. Let's pray the Dems don't fall for this one.
It's obviously just another money grab that further divides our country into "haves" and "have nots".
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Jim__ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-05 04:36 PM
Response to Original message
27. "... tax labor more heavily than investment... "
From the article: President George W. Bush's tax advisory panel unanimously backed two overhauls to the tax code that would scrap or curb many popular deductions and tax labor more heavily than investment.

Gee, what a surprise!
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cosmicdot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-05 07:43 PM
Response to Original message
32. the link has changed; and ...
Edited on Tue Nov-01-05 08:43 PM by cosmicdot
an alternative:

Tax Panel Takes Aim at credits, deductions
http://www.delawareonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051019/BUSINESS/510190363/-1/NEWS01

What orwellian name will the bill have:

the Make the Pie Higher Than Ever Tax Bill?
the Grover Norquist Bathtub Bill?

How nice that the Carlyle Group is represented on the panel?

Where's Jane Doe Mainstreet or Bob Blue Collar Worker at the table???

The Hoover Institution scored a seat at the table, too. Actually, represented twice if you count James Michael Poterba who was named as a George and Karen McCown Distinguished Visiting Fellow at the Hoover Institution.
http://www-hoover.stanford.edu/pubaffairs/newsletter/01winter/poterba.html

What's bipartisan about this panel? Not very diverse, is it?

Panel Members


Connie Mack III (Chairman) Senior Advisor, King & Spalding LLP, and former U.S. Senator. Senator Mack served as Chairman of the Joint Economic Committee and was a member of the Finance and Banking committees.


John Breaux (Vice-Chairman), former U.S. Senator. Senator Breaux served on the Finance Committee and the sub-committee on Taxation and IRS Oversight.


William Eldridge Frenzel, former Member of the U.S. House of Representatives. Mr. Frenzel served on the Budget Committee and the Ways and Means Committee. Mr. Frenzel is a Guest Scholar at the Brookings Institution.


Elizabeth Garrett, Sydney M. Irmas Professor of Public Interest Law, Legal Ethics and Political Science, University of Southern California. Ms. Garrett served as Legislative Director and Tax and Budget Counsel to former U.S. Senator David L. Boren.


Edward P. Lazear, Senior Fellow, Hoover Institution and Professor of Human Resources, Management and Economics, Stanford University's Graduate School of Business. Mr. Lazear is the founding editor of the Journal of Labor Economics.


Timothy J. Muris, Foundation Professor, George Mason School of Law and Of Counsel, O'Melveny & Myers LLP. Mr. Muris served as Chairman of the Federal Trade Commission from 2001 to 2004.


James Michael Poterba, Department of Economics, Massachusetts Institute of Technology. Mr. Poterba serves as Associate Department Head. He has taught at MIT since 1982.


Charles O. Rossotti, Senior Advisor, The Carlyle Group. Mr. Rossotti served from 1997 to 2002 as Commissioner of Internal Revenue. He formerly served as the President, Chief Executive Officer and Chairman of the Board of American Management Systems.


Liz Ann Sonders, Chief Investment Strategist, Charles Schwab. Ms. Sonders joined U.S. Trust, a division of Charles Schwab, in 1999 as a Managing Director and member of its Investment Policy Committees.

Panel Staff
Jeffrey F. Kupfer, Executive Director


http://www.taxreformpanel.gov/members.shtml



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