Majority of Americans Reject Theory of Evolution

[DaveColorado]

http://articles.news.aol.com/news/article.adp?id=20051024100409990019

Majority of Americans Reject Theory of Evolution

NEW YORK (Oct. 23) - Most Americans do not accept the theory of evolution. Instead, 51 percent of Americans say God created humans in their present form, and another three in 10 say that while humans evolved, God guided the process. Just 15 percent say humans evolved, and that God was not involved.

These views are similar to what they were in November 2004 shortly after the presidential election.

This question on the origin of human beings, asked both this month and in November 2004, offered the public three alternatives: 1. Human beings evolved from less advanced life forms over millions of years, and God did not directly guide this process; 2. Human beings evolved from less advanced life forms over millions of years, but God guided this process; or 3. God created human beings in their present form.

The results were not much different between the answers to that question and those given when a specific timeline was included in the final alternative: God created human beings in their present form within the last 10,000 years.

-more

[Verve]

1. WTF?

Where did they get their polling participants? The Deep South?

[saigon68]

128. From Under ROCKS

Low life humanoids like


this happy chimpanzee

[niceypoo]

147. Since when is science based on Polls?

THis is so absurd.

[melody]

2. I think that's an overreading of the data n/t

[greyl]

5. Yes. Half the people were too ignorant to understand the question.

I hope. :)

[bunyip]

161. Most people everywhere are ignorant.

Here in Australia with no organized Christian Right, and church attendance rates similar to France, most people believe in Creationism. Coz its a story they can understand. Even most of those who support Evolution can't explain how it works.

When you hang out with only educated middle-class people you can easily forget how the working class thinks. A majority of adults would not be able to explain gravity or the Round-Earth theory either. They believe in them because someone told them so and they never ask questions.

[ixion]

3. Just because they don't accept it

that doesn't make it any less true. ;-)

[Penance]

10. Daniel Patrick Moynihan once said:

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts."

[Canuckistanian]

160. Good quote!

Too bad no one in the GOP understands it.

[MadisonProgressive]

4. Whackos everywhere.... DUH

[BOSSHOG]

6. "God created human beings in their present form within the

past 10,000 years." Prove it! (Not directed at DaveColorado).

Don't refer to the bible. Show me proof of the subject line statement. Don't tell me what you "believe." I believe Arkansas beat Indiana State in the 1979 NCAA basketball tournament but I can't prove it because the final score says otherwise. (Allow me a bit of offsubject rage here. Watch the replay of the game, the bad calls and you will agree with me, Arkansas won the game. Am I obsessed or what? Its only been 26 years.)

Its so much easier to believe than to know, that's why evangelicals are so content, they don't have to know anything.

[BattyDem]

7. So this is what Green Day meant when they said "American Idiot"

:eyes:

[stepnw1f]

8. Stop Posting This Propaganda

This is the second time this has been posted. It's garbage.

[RethugAssKicker]

22. Propaganda???

[stepnw1f]

158. Want to See a Poll That Shows Bush Having a 75% Approval

I'll make one and get it published. Perception....

[central scrutinizer]

9. now if we can get them to reject gravity

maybe we can improve the gene pool as they eschew the elevator and hurtle to their deaths.

[IndianaGreen]

20. Gravity is an unproven theory. We believe in the Big Push.

Things fall because Gawd pushes them down.

[still_one]

57. wrong, things fall because the earth sucks

[IndianaGreen]

59. Ahhh, the BIg Suck Theory

at least we have the Great Spaghetti Monster for a deity.

[still_one]

66. from hitchhikers guide to the galaxy

Some time ago a group of hyper-intelligent pan dimensional beings decided to finally answer the great question of Life, The Universe and Everything.
To this end they built an incredibly powerful computer, Deep Thought. After the great computer programme had run (a very quick seven and a half million years) the answer was announced.

The Ultimate answer to Life, the Universe and Everything is...

(You're not going to like it...)

Is...

42
Which suggests that what you really need to know is 'What was the Question?'.

[Teaser]

61. Makes sense really.

because heaven would get cluttered otherwise.

[ErisFiveFingers]

154. ITYM

"Intelligent falling"

http://www.theonion.com/news/index.php?issue=4133&n=2

[Realityhack]

95. Have you seen all the polls on the pen on the moon?

http://www.falstad.com/gravity.html

Google it there are a lot more people who have done similar stuff. Basicaly nothing particulary scientific... but odds decent that the average american does not understand gravity.

Heck... my brothers SCIENCE TEACHER clamed that NASA had a chamber where they could 'pump the gravity out'. I am dead serious, he could never convince the teacher otherwise.

[clydefrand]

11. From a retired teacher's point of view, that means some

teachers didn't teach science very well if they don't believe evolution of the species is true. Also, they have done no traveling or reading or visited institutions like the Smithsonian that have the evidence and explanations.

[Realityhack]

96. Willful ignorance.

same as our general lack of knowlege about so many other things.

[AX10]

12. WTF? This is AOL news first of all and second....

I want to see the actual questions ask and the polling sample details too.

[Realityhack]

97. Here you go.

A. Its a CBS story posted on AOL news (see top of article)

B. This question on the origin of human beings... offered the public three alternatives:
1. Human beings evolved from less advanced life forms over millions of years, and God did not directly guide this process;
2. Human beings evolved from less advanced life forms over millions of years, but God guided this process; or
3. God created human beings in their present form.

C. This poll was conducted among a nationwide random sample of 808 adults, interviewed by telephone October 3-5, 2005. The error due to sampling for results based on the entire sample could be plus or minus four percentage points.

Now I would think perhapse a bit more on the percentage of error for this type of question. One wonders if people who beleive in evolution and those who do not are equaly likely to answer a telephone survey.

But anyway thats prity close to what you wanted.

[MissMillie]

13. Well, remember

the majority voted for Bush too.

The majority is often wrong.

[KurtNYC]

38. not according to exit polls

Kerry +3%

[ChairmanAgnostic]

14. I do NOT believe these stats.

I live in an extremely red area of Illinois, and even though their W stickers have been removed, and even though the churches outnumber the bars 10-1.3 here, and even though some are baptist, evangelical or other sects, I seriously doubt that most of the middle class sheeple here reject evolution.

The stats are wrong. I suspect that some fundie group culled the numbers, and sat on the stats in a way to create this result.

[depakid]

150. It's not the stats- it's the shoddy methodology

It's also biased sample- you can apply all of the stats you want, and when you have obvious things like response bias going on (among many others) the results are meaningless.

[Bjornsdotter]

15. I wonder?

Do they also reject the Theory of Gravity?

Cheers!

[Ezlivin]

16. Too bad evolution didn't reject those Americans

Where's survival of the fittest when you need it? We need our herd culled!

[GoddessOfGuinness]

77. Perhaps we haven't evolved...

Maybe we're actually in the throes of devolution.

[reprobate]

136. Our herd is being culled. Global warming. Deficits. Fewer science grads

Etc. Etc. Our society is devolving and fewer americans have a basis in science than did when I was in my 20s and 30s. Fewer asian and indian college grads are coming here for post grad work and fewer are staying here.

The world now sees america as a pit of stupidity. After all, we supposedly elected the Texas village idiot. Twice.

[aden_nak]

17. I dont find 808 people to be a useful number to poll for this sorta thing.

[still_one]

58. I agree

[0rganism]

78. statistically valid, to within 4.5% for 99%

The study lines up with others I've seen on the topic.

The parameters for statistical inference regarding a large population from smaller random samples is well known. All one would gain by polling the entire population is the other 4 percentage points of certainty. Think about it thusly: what are the chances that your 808 respondents are NOT representative of the population at large? Well, we can be 99% sure that no more than 4.5% (about 36) deviated one way or the other. We can be 95% sure that this error is less than 3.4%, and 90% sure that it's less than 2.8%. The degree of accuracy is independent of the overall population size -- which amazes some people.

This, by the way, is why one rarely sees random surveys on ANY topic with more than 2000 respondents: the marginal benefit to accuracy gained by orders-of-magnitude increases in sample size generally are not worth the trouble of taking such a survey. It's why most democratic countries allow random exit polls and vote sampling to be used in the process of establishing valid elections.

However, the active word here is random. If the poll was self-selected or highly localized, it would not be reflective of the American population.

[Realityhack]

99. Self selection could be a factor.

Those favoring god could be more likely to answer a telephone survey for instance.
But personaly I would say it sounds like it could well be in the balpark.
Might be interesting to see a larger survey with regional and rural/urban breakouts.

[IndianaGreen]

18. and Noah had Raptors and T-Rexes aboard his Ark

and geological evidence means nothing because the Great Flood mixed all the strata up which made the heavier stuff, such as dinosaur bones, to sink deeper into the ground.

In an nutshell, that's what fundies believe in.

It is time we introduce Americans to Marx!

[mrbassman03]

46. Marx???

Ummm... this has nothing to do with Marxism or economics in general...

[IndianaGreen]

48. Marx's warning about religion

being the drug of choice for the masses. Marx was a philosopher too!

Religion is one of the forms of spiritual oppression which everywhere weighs down heavily upon the masses of the people, over burdened by their perpetual work for others, by want and isolation. Impotence of the exploited classes in their struggle against the exploiters just as inevitably gives rise to the belief in a better life after death as impotence of the savage in his battle with nature gives rise to belief in gods, devils, miracles, and the like. Those who toil and live in want all their lives are taught by religion to be submissive and patient while here on earth, and to take comfort in the hope of a heavenly reward. But those who live by the labour of others are taught by religion to practise charity while on earth, thus offering them a very cheap way of justifying their entire existence as exploiters and selling them at a moderate price tickets to well-being in heaven. Religion is opium for the people. Religion is a sort of spiritual booze, in which the slaves of capital drown their human image, their demand for a life more or less worthy of man.

But a slave who has become conscious of his slavery and has risen to struggle for his emancipation has already half ceased to be a slave. The modern class-conscious worker, reared by large-scale factory industry and enlightened by urban life, contemptuously casts aside religious prejudices, leaves heaven to the priests and bourgeois bigots, and tries to win a better life for himself here on earth. The proletariat of today takes the side of socialism, which enlists science in the battle against the fog of religion, and frees the workers from their belief in life after death by welding them together to fight in the present for a better life on earth.

Socialism and Religion (1905)
V.I. Lenin

http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1905/dec/03.htm

[Darranar]

115. It is simply false to suggest that religion is always a submissive force.

A variety of liberation struggles have been influenced by religion.

Marxist disdain for religion serves little purpose but to anger the religious.

[IndianaGreen]

132. You should have read Lenin's essay

you might have learned a thing or two:

Religion must be declared a private affair. In these words socialists usually express their attitude towards religion. But the meaning of these words should be accurately defined to prevent any misunderstanding. We demand that religion be held a private affair so far as the state is concerned. But by no means can we consider religion a private affair so far as our Party is concerned. Religion must be of no concern to the state, and religious societies must have no connection with governmental authority. Everyone must be absolutely free to profess any religion he pleases, or no religion whatever, i.e., to be an atheist, which every socialist is, as a rule. Discrimination among citizens on account of their religious convictions is wholly intolerable. Even the bare mention of a citizen’s religion in official documents should unquestionably be eliminated. No subsidies should be granted to the established church nor state allowances made to ecclesiastical and religious societies. These should become absolutely free associations of like-minded citizens, associations independent of the state. Only the complete fulfilment of these demands can put an end to the shameful and accursed past when the church lived in feudal dependence on the state, and Russian citizens lived in feudal dependence on the established church, when medieval, inquisitorial laws (to this day remaining in our criminal codes and on our statute-books) were in existence and were applied, persecuting men for their belief or disbelief, violating men’s consciences, and linking cosy government jobs and government-derived incomes with the dispensation of this or that dope by the established church. Complete separation of Church and State is what the socialist proletariat demands of the modern state and the modern church.

<snip>

So far as the party of the socialist proletariat is concerned, religion is not a private affair. Our Party is an association of class-conscious, advanced fighters for the emancipation of the working class. Such an association cannot and must not be indifferent to lack of class-consciousness, ignorance or obscurantism in the shape of religious beliefs. We demand complete disestablishment of the Church so as to be able to combat the religious fog with purely ideological and solely ideological weapons, by means of our press and by word of mouth. But we founded our association, the Russian Social-Democratic Labour Party, precisely for such a struggle against every religious bamboozling of the workers. And to us the ideological struggle is not a private affair, but the affair of the whole Party, of the whole proletariat.

If that is so, why do we not declare in our Programme that we are atheists? Why do we not forbid Christians and other believers in God to join our Party?

The answer to this question will serve to explain the very important difference in the way the question of religion is presented by the bourgeois democrats and the Social-Democrats.

Our Programme is based entirely on the scientific, and moreover the materialist, world-outlook. An explanation of our Programme, therefore, necessarily includes an explanation of the true historical and economic roots of the religious fog. Our propaganda necessarily includes the propaganda of atheism; the publication of the appropriate scientific literature, which the autocratic feudal government has hitherto strictly forbidden and persecuted, must now form one of the fields of our Party work. We shall now probably have to follow the advice Engels once gave to the German Socialists: to translate and widely disseminate the literature of the eighteenth-century French Enlighteners and atheists.<1>

But under no circumstances ought we to fall into the error of posing the religious question in an abstract, idealistic fashion, as an “intellectual” question unconnected with the class struggle, as is not infrequently done by the radical-democrats from among the bourgeoisie. It would be stupid to think that, in a society based on the endless oppression and coarsening of the worker masses, religious prejudices could be dispelled by purely propaganda methods. It would be bourgeois narrow-mindedness to forget that the yoke of religion that weighs upon mankind is merely a product and reflection of the economic yoke within society. No number of pamphlets and no amount of preaching can enlighten the proletariat, if it is not enlightened by its own struggle against the dark forces of capitalism. Unity in this really revolutionary struggle of the oppressed class for the creation of a paradise on earth is more important to us than unity of proletarian opinion on paradise in heaven.

Socialim and Religion (1905)
V.I. Lenin

http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1905/dec/03.htm

[bunyip]

162. Marxism IS a religion.

With its own gospels, commandments, its division between the sacred and the profane. It even has its own messianic 'world to come', where we will transcend human biology and limited intellectual capacity. :crazy:

Marxist fundies are notoriously dogmatic. Molecular genetics was deemed http://www.physics.smu.edu/~olness/qnet/2003/lysenko.pdf">incompatible with the dialectic , and http://abyss.uoregon.edu/~js/glossary/lamarckism.html">its proponents exiled or killed.

Read about Marxism's http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0674076087/002-6295516-3220808?v=glance">crusades. Up to one hundred million people have been killed in the name of Marxism. Far more than the number killed in the name of Christianity, Islam, Judaism and Hinduism combined. And its not over yet...
:cry:

IndianaGreen, you are hereby declared a Reverend of the Church of the Dialectic.

And DU's offical Chaplain.
:toast:

[reprobate]

137. But Noah forgot the Unicorns. And what's Groucho got to do with it?

[AX10]

19. "PUSH POLL" anyone?

.

[Realityhack]

112. Doesn't look like one

Not from the questions. I also (while appaled) happen to think that number is reasonably beleivable.

[wickerwoman]

142. The questions are bollocks.

"1. Human beings evolved from less advanced life forms over millions of years, and God did not directly guide this process;
2. Human beings evolved from less advanced life forms over millions of years, but God guided this process; or
3. God created human beings in their present form."

Where's 4. There is no God?

Even #1 assumes the existance of God. It just suggests that He/She/It was disengaged from the creation process. Real atheists with basic reading comprehension would not have been able to answer this question because none of the choices reflect their views, hence it is skewed towards believers.

(This doesn't make it a push poll, but it does make it bullshit.)

[muriel_volestrangler]

152. I'm a real atheist, and I would answer #1

Just as I would choose that answer if it said "mermaids did not directly guide the process". There is nothing in the phrase "God did not create the world" that implies that God exists.

[primavera]

151. Sad but true

Let us not forget, the majority of Americans can't even find Mexico on a map - the level of public ignorance in this country is staggering beyond belief.

[Cathyclysmic]

148. agreed

It would be interesting to see how the questions were worded.

[RethugAssKicker]

21. And 40% still like Bush... Many Americans are truly daft!

[demnan]

23. When I was in high school

even some of my science teachers didn't believe in evolution and said so. I always knew I wasn't getting the best education from them. This does not surprise me. It shows the lack of quality science education in American schools.

[htuttle]

24. Tripe

They only interviewed 808 people. I don't buy it. Even using their own methodology, there's a MOE of 4%, meaning it's anywhere from 47% (not a majority) to 55%.

I know a lot of stupid people, and as far as I know, all of THEM even think the theory of evolution is accurate (I don't want to say 'believe' here, since it's got nothing to do with belief -- it's about evidence and science).

The thing is, while I know hundreds of people (at least), I'm not sure I know a single 'white evangelical' personally (the ones who most consistently believed in creationism, according to this CBS survey). I guess we just don't get interviewed in surveys much...

[AX10]

28. the majority of Protestants I know are ardent believers in....

Evolution(80/20). The Catholics I know are more split(55/45). ALL believe that one can belive in both Evolution AND God.

[truebrit71]

25. This horseshit has been posted elsewhere...

...and the reponses have been roughly the same...

This is complete and total bullshit.

Next?

[MadisonProgressive]

26. Can we just banish these people to JESUSLAND and be done with it?

[DaveColorado]

27. "Jesusland" is most of the country I'm afraid

[MadisonProgressive]

29. No it's not - haven't you seen the map?

[progressoid]

33. Oh crap, I live in Jesusland.

[imouttahere]

67. Oh, if it were only as easy as "The United States of Canada"

I could just move to Montreal without having to go through all this immigration nonsense!

[DaveColorado]

31. Evangelical Scientists Refute Gravity With New 'Intelligent Falling' Theor

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/39512

Evangelical Scientists Refute Gravity With New 'Intelligent Falling' Theory

August 17, 2005 | Issue 41•33

KANSAS CITY, KS—As the debate over the teaching of evolution in public schools continues, a new controversy over the science curriculum arose Monday in this embattled Midwestern state. Scientists from the Evangelical Center For Faith-Based Reasoning are now asserting that the long-held "theory of gravity" is flawed, and they have responded to it with a new theory of Intelligent Falling.


"Things fall not because they are acted upon by some gravitational force, but because a higher intelligence, 'God' if you will, is pushing them down," said Gabriel Burdett, who holds degrees in education, applied Scripture, and physics from Oral Roberts University.

Burdett added: "Gravity—which is taught to our children as a law—is founded on great gaps in understanding. The laws predict the mutual force between all bodies of mass, but they cannot explain that force. Isaac Newton himself said, 'I suspect that my theories may all depend upon a force for which philosophers have searched all of nature in vain.' Of course, he is alluding to a higher power."

Founded in 1987, the ECFR is the world's leading institution of evangelical physics, a branch of physics based on literal interpretation of the Bible.

-more

[CardInAustin]

69. We laugh at that now....

But the scary thing is that it is believable.

[LiberalFighter]

119. So when God pushes down too hard...

that is when people die

[eowyn_of_rohan]

129. Don't let them brainwash you into believing THAT

this article is propaganda

[slor]

30. No way...

I do not believe this poll.

[stopbush]

32. Amazing what fear, ignorance and GUILT can do to Americans.

They're all afraid that the lightening bolt is gonna hit em in the head.

BTW - if you missed Cenk Uygur's post at HuffPo the other day, you really should check it out:

If You're a Christian, Muslim or Jew - You are Wrong

We live in a twisted world, where right is wrong and wrong reigns supreme. It is a chilling fact that most of the world's leaders believe in nonsensical fairytales about the nature of reality. They believe in Gods that do not exist, and religions that could not possibly be true. We are driven to war after war, violence on top of violence to appease madmen who believe in gory mythologies.
These men are called Christians, Muslims and Jews.

George W. Bush is the most powerful man alive. He is a class A imbecile. He is far less intelligent than the average Christian. But like most of the others, he believes Jesus died for his sins. That idea is so perverse and devoid of logic it should shock the conscience. Instead, it gets him elected, and earns him the reverence of a great percentage of America. America! The most advanced country in the world -- run by a bunch of villagers who still believe Santa Claus is going to save them.

There is no damn Easter Bunny. There is no Jesus waiting to return. Moses never even existed. These were all convenient lies from the men of those times to gain power. Their actions were rational -- they wanted to deceive their brethren so that they could amass power. I get their motivations. But I cannot, for the life of me, understand our motivations, thousands of years later, still following the conmen of yesteryear into our gory, bloody, violent end.

More here:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/cenk-uygur/if-youre-a-christian-mu_b_9349.html

[RaleighNCDUer]

52. A couple years ago, in a heated debate with a fundie,

I demanded that God strike me down on the spot, and challenged Him that if He didn't He didn't He would be leaving His disciple open to doubt as to His ability to do so.

The fundie actually backed away from me. He wasn't kidding -- the look on his face said that he expect his diety to follow through because there is no greater sin than directly challenging god.

I would love to move to a more rational part of the country.

[KurtNYC]

34. If you breed a maltese and a poodle...

do you not get a malta-poo?

BS poll -- people have a flawed understanding of biology and believe plenty of things that aren't true. For instance:

-the majority of people believe that their heart is on the left side of the sternum

- a majority of people believe that getting cold or wet is the causation for getting a cold

- if 2 objects are dropped at the same time from the same height, the heavier one will land first

[DaveColorado]

36. I've seen the map

Canada would never go along with it.

[imouttahere]

71. That's for sure, they're too smart for that....

they've got a good thing going up there, what with a budget surplus and a burgeoning trade surplus with OTHER regions of the world. They are positioning themselves nicely for the eventual collapse of our economy. It will be a lot easier for them to ride out a recession or depression if they have stronger trade ties with other regions.

[Realityhack]

101. Lots think...

if you let go of a pen on the moon it will float away as well.

[tridim]

35. Can someone be Christian and not believe the passage "God created Heaven

and the Earth?" I ask because I honestly don't know the answer and have been led to believe that something like 85% of Americans consider themselves Christian. I'm sure plenty of smart Christians gave the God answer simply to hedge their bets, even though they know evolution is real.

[unschooler]

93. You can be a follower of Christ and believe pretty much anything

you want. According to Jesus as recorded in the gospels, it's what you do, not what you believe or say, that's important.

[nolabels]

37. In either case I wasn't there so why should I give crap

Notice to Bible thumpers: If George Bush is your example of being a good (born again)Christian you have latched on to a real loser of an example




P.S. We know them are simpleton answers but coming to the level of thought is a necessity for people who get spoon fed their news and information

[kskiska]

39. I worked with an otherwise intelligent person in Connecticut

and couldn't believe what I was hearing when he told me he didn't believe in evolution. He simply didn't like the idea that humans descended from apes. It was distasteful to him.

[madmark]

40. No wonder bush was elected twice

[DaveColorado]

43. He was not elected in 2000

Some believe he was not elected in 2004. I am not one of them due to the coattail effect in most races throughout the country, however your reasoning still stands as highly valid.

If you are willing to believe that the Earth is 6000 years old, it's not a stretch to believe Saddam was behind 9/11.

[booksenkatz]

41. Where was the choice on this poll for agnostics?

Of course we evolved, and continue to evolve, but whether or not there was a god-force involved, how the eff can anyone possibly know that? Why is GOD the only choice on this poll?

[WindRavenX]

42. REPENT!!!!1111!!

You must reject this satan-infused "science" and join the Church of The Flying Spaghetti Monster! For it is He who has blessed us with His Noodly Appendage, blessing us with holy carbohydrates and midgets!

REPENT!!


Ramen.

http://www.venganza.org/

[progressoid]

44. 43% believe in UFOs and 80-90% believe in God.

So, what can we conclude from this data?

Clearly, that I need another cup of coffee and two more oatmeal cookies.

[RaleighNCDUer]

53. God created the heaven and the earth

He then separated them and on the earth he created the creaturs of the earth.

So who created the UFOs? Aliens are not mentioned in the book.

[IndianaGreen]

82. Dinosaurs are not mentioned in the Bible, and neither are whales

The Bible also says that the Sun revolves around the Earth.

[lakemonster11]

124. I had a religious kids' book when I was little

that had dinosaurs in it. My grandparents (Southern Baptists, but Democrats) must have given it to me, since my parents never gave us anything religious or took us to church.

It was basically the story of Genesis (from what I can remember), but it started with God creating the earth, then creating dinosaurs, then destroying dinosaurs and creating humans.

Until I was older and finally read the Bible, I thought that's how it went!

By the way, whales are mentioned in the Bible.

From the Extracts in Moby-Dick:

"And God created great whales." (Genesis)

"Leviathan maketh a path to shine after him;
One would think the deep to be hoary." (Job)

"Now the Lord had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah." (Jonah)

"There go the ships; there is that Leviathan whom thou hast made to play therein." (Psalms)

"In that day, the Lord with his sore, and great, and strong sword, shall punish Leviathan the piercing serpent, even Leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea." (Isaiah)

[IndianaGreen]

133. No whales in Bible, check this

Even the King James's version did not translate it right, but this error was corrected in other translations of the Bible:

21 So God created the great creatures of the ocean. He created every living and moving thing that fills the waters. He created all kinds of them. He created every kind of bird that flies. And God saw that it was good.

Genesis 1:21 (New International Reader's Version)

21 So God created great sea creatures and every living thing that moves, with which the waters abounded, according to their kind, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.

Genesis 1:21 (New King James Version)

21 And God created the great sea-monsters, and every living creature that moveth, wherewith the waters swarmed, after their kind, and every winged bird after its kind: and God saw that it was good.

Genesis 1:21 (American Standard Version)

21 God created the great sea monsters and every living creature that moves, which the waters brought forth abundantly, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good (suitable, admirable) and He approved it.

Genesis 1:21 (Amplified Bible)

[lakemonster11]

134. I understand the translation problem.

In both of my Bibles, it says "great sea monsters," too (I used Melville's translations because I'm lazy and I knew that he had a list of whale quotes) but just because the most literal translation is "sea monsters" doesn't mean it's not describing whales. It seems to me that "sea monsters" describes whales, sharks, and large squids in general.

"Great fish" is the same. A "great fish" is either a shark or a whale.

I mean, in Leviticus, it doesn't say "Insects shall be an abomination for you." It says:

"All winged swarming things that walk on fours shall be an abomination for you. But these you may eat among all the winged swarming things that walk on fours: all that have, above their feet, jointed legs to leap with on the ground--of these you may eat the following: locusts of every variety; all varieties of bald locust; crickets of every variety; and all varieties of grasshopper. But all other winged swarming things that have four legs shall be an abomination for you." (Leviticus 11.20-23, JPS translation)

Just because it doesn't say "insects" or because that's not the most literal translation doesn't mean that that's not what the passage is about.

[IndianaGreen]

138. Using my Jewish Publication Society version of the Genesis passage

"And God created the great sea-monsters and every every living creature that creepeth, wherewith the waters swarmed, after its kind, and every winged fowl after its kind; and God saw that it was good."

Chocolate covered locusts... Mmmmm

[lakemonster11]

140. ?

As I said, my Bible says "great sea monsters," too.

[VTMechEngr]

125. Jonah and the whale ring a bell?

[IndianaGreen]

130. Jonah and the "great fish." It wasn't a whale!

The Bible does not mention whale, and if the Bible is truly the word of the Almighty to be taken literally, I don't think the Supreme Being would confuse a sea mammal with a fish.

Now the LORD had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights.

Jonah 1:17 (King James Version)

[Realityhack]

108. Mmmmm oatmeal cookies ;-) n/t

[mrbassman03]

45. The problem I have with this is...

The fact that God is included in all three of the choices. Even the first choice, which is the one I feel most rational people would choose includes the idea that God exists. Do the atheists out there get counted, or was this just a poll among those who believe in God?

[Kailassa]

47. They guessed that atheists are too intelligent to read AOL News. ;-)

[Disturbed]

54. My guess is that most people know almost nothing..

about Evolution. They merely reject the Science because they refuse to believe that mankind evolved from apes. They are stuck on that because of the "God made man in his own image." concept and feel that God could not be an Ape. The idea that mankind evolved from a cell in the ocean is way beyond their comprehension. The concept that a God created a man from clay and fashioned a women from that man's rib is much more appealing to them.

[Judi Lynn]

89. Thanks for making that point.

They find it easy to believe in a very tall, white-haired god who makes men from clay, and women from men's ribs. That's easy for them.

Science scares them. There's no magic. No giant grandfatherly men.

[Zhade]

131. Tell me about it.

I'm STILL seeing people - HERE AT DU!!! - who think evolution deals with abiogenesis!

It's friggin' maddening, I tell ya.

[0rganism]

81. Oddly enough, the results of the AOL online poll favor evolution

Of course, being self-selected, it's not statistically valid, but 37% are saying evolution only, 31% guided evolution, and 31% God-as-we-are.

[Realityhack]

100. Thats still supprisingly close to the random poll. n/t

[anotherdrew]

49. so what about the bird flu then?

Let them skip caution and treatment then, since both are from 'evil' science. Such an ignorant nation, they were nearly all given at least a start of a chance to learn, think and know, but they'd rather just feel and act little different than they would have 1000 years ago, just with slightly different 'toys'. So sad...

[Kailassa]

51. It's simple.

As there is no such thing as evolution, if we do get a bird flu pandemic, we'll know that it was created by a higher intelligence. Which will prove that Bush didn't do it after all. ;-)

[anotherdrew]

80. LOL!

very nice

[zalinda]

50. I'm guessing that most didn't know the meaning

of the word evolution. I hope that's the case, sort of. No matter what they meant, our schools are in big trouble.

zalinda

[geckosfeet]

55. This is hogwash. 51% say that God created humans in their present

form!!!! How is it possible that a majority of Americans are that delusional? I simply do not believe that number.

What was the context ot the poll? Was it given in some forum where the people who took it were predominately white anglo tv sucking pretty people Xians?

Of course, AOL is a suck a$$ service for brain addled thought free simians so that may partially explain the results.

[still_one]

56. sorry that is bullshit

I don't believe it

I am not sure how the survey was done, but I cannot believe people in this country are that ignorant

One way to help convience me is to survey with other questions, such as does the sun revolve around the earth, does the sun rise in the west and set in the east, do you believe in gravity, etc.

[zara]

60. Majority of Americans are Ignorant--this is news?

[Name removed]

114. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[VegasWolf]

62. Majority of Americans fall into the bottom 60% of IQ ranges. nt

[KamaAina]

63. Majority of Americans Reject Theory of Gravity,

Begin Marching off Cliffs like Lemmings :puke:

We must fight the dumbing down of America, like the man said, "by any meqans necessary".

[Solly Mack]

64. Theory of Evolution Escapes Majority of Americans

might be a more accurate headline

[Truebrit71sbruv]

65. You fucking idiots.... of COURSE it's true

>snip< This poll was conducted among a nationwide random sample of 808 adults, interviewed by telephone October 3-5, 2005. The error due to sampling for results based on the entire sample could be plus or minus four percentage points. >snip<
(From the "small print" on the article)

Look... an exhaustive 808 people were asked their opinion!

We ALL know you can extrapolate the opinions of a population of in excess of 295 million people based on such in-depth research!

[muriel_volestrangler]

86. It's the fifth poll this year to come up with a similar result

As I told your sibling in another thread.

http://www.pollingreport.com/science.htm

808 people is a sample gives margin of error of under 4%, as the article said.

[Truebrit71sbruv]

87. Eeeek

You've been talking to my sibling???

Now that's more scary than the poll results!

(And maybe they should stop asking the same 808 people ~ahems~)

[muriel_volestrangler]

88. 'fraid so - there's a large thread in General Discussion on this

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=5157411&mesg_id=5162644

[Realityhack]

102. Actualy

assuming a truely random sample you can have a fair degree of accuracy in doing that yes.

[biggles1]

107. Quite right....

The reliability of the survey is NOT determined by the sample size. All that is affected is the Margin of Error range. Unfortunately, this WOULD appear to be a reliable measurement of popular opinion, give or take 4%.

[Truebrit71sbruv]

144. I would however....

... love to see the exact breakdown of the "nationwide" element...

Sorry, I am just habitually suspicious of pollsters...

:shrug:

[Montauk6]

68. Unrelated but didn't most Americans believe Saddam was behind 9-11?

[Gidney N Cloyd]

76. Saddam tried to fly two pterodactyls into Noah's Ark, too.

Noah stopped them with a Holy Hand Grenade.

[Realityhack]

106. ROTFLOL - thanks I needed that n/t

[onenote]

70. I guess this proves that a whole lot of people haven't evolved

This is so confusing.....

onenote

[Angry Girl]

72. And 20% of Americans think the sun orbits the earth....

Twenty percent of Americans think the sun orbits the earth. Seventeen percent believe the earth revolves around the sun once a day (The Week, Jan. 7, 2005).

The United States is 49th in the world in literacy (the New York Times, Dec. 12, 2004).

The United States ranked 28th out of 40 countries in mathematical literacy (NYT, Dec. 12, 2004).
http://citypages.com/databank/26/1264/article12985.asp

And some 45% of Americans were stupid enough to actually vote for Bush!

So what an educated crowd from which to draw our sample....

Besides, if AOL's users knew any better, they'd switch providers, since AOL has granted Homeland Security unlimited surveillance of its millions of members, according to a report from the U.S. Department of Commerce.
http://markcrispinmiller.blogspot.com/2005/10/aol-is-watching-you.html

[GoddessOfGuinness]

73. The majority of people who read this article believe in evolution,

at present, anyway:

How were humans created?
By evolution alone 37%
By God in our present form 32%
By evolution, with God's guidance 31%

Is it possible to believe in both God and evolution?
Yes 70%
No 30%

Total Votes: 128,737

[Judi Lynn]

90. Here are the numbers, a little over an hour later:

How were humans created?
By evolution alone 37%
By God in our present form 32%
By evolution, with God's guidance 31%
Is it possible to believe in both God and evolution?
Yes 70%
No 30%
Total Votes: 128,851
Note on Poll Results

[enki23]

74. an even higher percentage believes there's one or more ghosts in the sky

who watch over us, and get mad when we have sex without asking them first.

[Coastie for Truth]

75. Actually, I reject:

1. The literal story of Creation in Genesis.
2. Immaculate Conception.
3. Virgin Birth.
4. Physical Resurrection of the Dead.
5. Intervention by Saints.
6. Book of Revelations.

a. Rapture
b. Apocalypse

7. Papal Infallibility

a. Presidential infallibility
b. Clergy infallibility.

And I have some serious questions about:
1. Some points of sub-atomic physics.
2. Field Effect Transistors
3. Maxwell's Equations.

[Realityhack]

105. Whats the question about FETs?

Just wondering. I only know a little about them.

[Coastie for Truth]

109. It's them sources and drains and gates and quantums.

And the dopers.

Have you ever seen a quantum.

And tunneling - like that's with bulldozers.

[Realityhack]

113. ???

Sorry but I lost you there somewhere.
The doping adjents used in the silicon? Are you poking fun and I am missing it or are you serious?

[Coastie for Truth]

120. Poking fun at the IDers

It's like my Dad's old joke:

Son tells dad -- "I learned a lot in college this year."

Dad - "What did you learn?"

Son- "Math"

Dad - "And, what did you learn in math?"

Son - "I learned PI R Squared"

Dad - "No, no, No!! -- Cake are square - Pie are round."

Dad was a great extemp speaker and stand up comic - of the Ed Schultz type.

[hunter]

123. The first time I played with a FET it was like magic.

It really was, especially to anyone like me who was used to building things with plain old npn and pnp transistors.

Maxwell's equations, like our five fingers and the resulting base 10 counting system, are just some of the tricks God uses to keep us from getting into too much trouble before we achieve true intelligence.

Imagine if everyone and their neighbor had city-busting anti-matter bombs that cost less than a cup of coffee to make, and you sort of get the picture. Civilizations where folks have eight fingers and no Maxwell tend to die quicker than drunken teenagers driving big motorcycles at night.

:silly:

Something very cool about the internet, is noise:

http://www.ciphersbyritter.com/NOISE/NOISRC.HTM

[0rganism]

143. Reminds me of the Lexx episodes about the Higgs Boson

Earth being a type 13 planet and all, we're very likely to be collapsed into a pea-sized object by scientists trying to find the mass of the Higgs Boson.

“Are you sure you want to return to an alien-infected type thirteen planet in it’s final stage?”

[jpgray]

79. Note this doesn't ask if you believe the theory of evolution is sound

It asks if God created humans in their present form. I know personally more than a few people who believe that their faith in God is wholly separate from their belief in the scientific foundations of the theory of evolution. I think a "theory of evoltuion--agree with/disagree with" would provide a more accurate picture.

[Realityhack]

104. What about the middle opption

It also had a choice of evolution guided by god. That would seem to cover that group.

[geniph]

83. The majority of Americans think there are penguins at the North Pole

What is this, fucking Family Feud? "Survey says...."

So people make stupid-ass responses to push polls. This qualifies as Latest Breaking News? Hate to break it to anyone here, but a lot of us figured out quite some time ago that the short bus has more riders than seats.

[cosmicdot]

84. there's a poll next to the article ... with 128,824 votes so far. ...

It looks like 63% lean toward evolution.


How were humans created?

By evolution alone 37%

By evolution, with God's guidance 31%

By God in our present form 32%


Is it possible to believe in both God and evolution?
Yes 70%
No 30%




The article didn't mention who conducted the poll unless it's assumed it was a CBS-conducted poll.

[Rabrrrrrr]

85. The majority of Americans are ignorant, backwards fuckbags

So it isn't surprisiong that they'd put superstitious non-Biblical nonsense above science.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

98. They're scared...

Deep down, they're thinking, "What if there is a hell after death? If I acknowledge evolution, I might go there!"

I challenge them with this thought:
What if there is a hell after death, and all those who rejected the sacred gift of scientific thought go there? What then, you doopy-heads?

[Placebo]

91. NEWSFLASH: Poll Proves Only 15% of Americans Are Intelligent

:o

[Triana]

92. most believe in fairy tales then...

...that's how we ended up with an idiot in the W.H.

[Realityhack]

103. Blind belief + Willful ingnorance + defend at all costs attatude =

one really fucked up mess.

[boddhi]

94. unfortunately, the numbers are true

http://www.religioustolerance.org/ev_publi.htm#earth

I was researching for a talk a while back when I came across the statistic. The site seems pretty balanced, but I still didn't believe it, so I signed up for a free subscription to Gallup.

I tracked down their version of the poll taken over the past 20 or so years (as referenced in the article) and the numbers were pretty much the same and have remained virtually unchanged over that 20 year span +/- the margin of error type of thing.

I agree wholeheartedly that this is very difficult to accept, but I'm afraid the stats are real. I've been trying to figure out why ever since....

[DaveColorado]

110. Teh Great Lego flood

[MrSlayer]

111. Never let it be said that Americans aren't stupid.

Because they prove it over and over again.

[Name removed]

116. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[m0nkeyneck]

118. some stupid, most misled

[Realityhack]

126. You missed willfuly ignorant.

I can't let them off the hook for being missled when so many people get so many more facts correct. You can't just blame the leaders... the sheep want to be led.

[m0nkeyneck]

117. so this is how...

Charlton Heston felt in The Planet of the Apes

[stepnw1f]

121. Fundis Are a SUPER Minority

Get over it dick heads!

[Realityhack]

127. ???

Whah? How does that poll show that?!?

[stepnw1f]

157. This Poll is Crap is What I Am Saying

That's whah...

[Roland99]

122. And * got 51.5% of the vote...hmmm....coinky-dink? I think not!

[radio4progressives]

135. this is crap. invented propaganda n/t

[Dr Fate]

139. "Guided Evolution" is still a belief in the theory. The poll is misleading

What is wrong with believing that God "guides" the universe AND understanding a scientific theory?

[Carolab]

141. PEW: Reading the Polls on Evolution and Creationism

http://people-press.org/commentary/display.php3?AnalysisID=118

A bit of selective interpretation on AOL's part, apparently


Surveys are also fairly consistent in their estimates of how many Americans believe in evolution or creationism. Approximately 40%-50% of the public accepts a biblical creationist account of the origins of life, while comparable numbers accept the idea that humans evolved over time. The wording of survey questions generally makes little systematic difference in this division of opinion.

{snip}

Consider for example the approaches taken by Pew and Gallup (see table below). The two organizations find similar numbers in favor of a creationist position ­ 42% for Pew, 45% for Gallup ­ although each describes the concept in decidedly different terms. But Pew finds far more people believing in natural selection (26% vs. 13% for Gallup) while Gallup finds more subscribing to the view that God or a supreme being guided the evolutionary process (38% vs. 18% for Pew).

These differences result from the way the options are presented. Gallup asks respondents to choose among three views, two of which suggest a belief in God ("God created human beings pretty much in the present form" and "God guided process"), and one that rejects God's involvement altogether ("God had no part in this process"). It seems likely that for many respondents, agreeing with this last statement could imply a denial of belief in God. The resulting percentage choosing this option (13%) is about the size of the segment of the public that does not believe in God at all.

Pew's approach, on the other hand, asks people initially if they believe life "evolved over time" or existed in its "present form since the beginning of time"; the question makes no mention of God. Those who said that life evolved were then asked if life "evolved due to natural processes such as natural selection" or whether "a supreme being guided the evolution of living things for the purpose of creating humans and other life in the form it exists today." The Pew formulation provides a significantly more positive and inclusive description of the scientific position by characterizing natural selection as "a natural process" rather than something "God had no part in." This implicitly allows people who believe that God or a supreme being set the evolutionary process in motion, or even shaped it in some way, to still opt for "natural selection" as the main engine of evolution.1

[StellaBlue]

145. aah... living in Europe was SOOOO nice while it lasted...

...people in this country are irredeemably ignorant, IMHO.

This is the type of thing that would never even come up in Europe.

[Nostradamus]

146. good old god who makes babies die from schrapnel wounds and cancer

[depakid]

149. AOL/CBS "news" story & cheap media poll

If anyone believes this ridiculous telephone survey, then I feel sorry for them, because they're likely to get hoodwinked and duped about a whole lot of things in their lives....

[ErisFiveFingers]

153. Yaaay.

American science educaton sucks.

[AnneD]

155. It is a fact...

not a theory just as gravity is a fact not a theory. It has a few interesting anomilies that should be studied----but it is still a fact. Talk about your Flat Earth Societies. Oh and by the way, I attend church every Sunday and have no problem with either. For me, the main purpose of going to church is to hear the words of Christ....not the rehashed tale of the Gilgamesh. That should be the focus of Christianity. And while we are on the subject, why put up the 10 Commandments. If you really want to be Christian, put up the Beatitudes.....
Oh, then you would have to treat the poor, the criminal, the widowed with compassion and forgiveness. We can't have that in this 'Culture of Life'. These people give Christ a bad name. Hope he comes down and smotes them on general principal- or at least makes them live in this mess they have created.
Now there is a thought, all us DEM's and lefties getting Raptured and letting the fundies duke it out.

[0rganism]

163. It's a fact AND a theory

The word "theory" has been degraded colloquially, but in science it is high praise. A scientific theory is a sound explanation of the evidence with predictive value, underwritten by plenty of peer-reviewed research and evidence.

Frankly, we know more about evolution than we do about gravity. We don't yet have a working theory of gravity, i.e., how it does what it does, whereas the mechanisms of evolution are relatively well understood -- not perfectly, but well enough to do something about them. Thus, we talk about "Laws of gravity" (facts), such as how much one mass is attracted to another, and we can make pretty good quantitative predictions about how future masses will attract one-another, but we don't yet grok why. Consequently, we can't do artificial gravity yet (as far as I know). We're stuck with the cookie-cutter gravitational defaults until we have a predictive theory of its workings.

Similarly, with evolution, we know that life forms do evolve from common ancestors, and have done so over billions of years (facts, as you say), but the key difference is that we have a decent model (well, more than one competing model, really) of how it happens and what gets tweaked to make it happen. Thus, we can cause artificial evolution, we know that antibiotics should be used sparingly to prevent accidental evolution, and so on.

The theory explains the facts.

Here's a website with a nice overview of the situation: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-fact.html

[AnneD]

166. True

but these are black and white thinkers and the subtly is lost. Trust me, if you to stand a chance with these folk....you have to frame in in the terms I used. I have had many a debate with these folks and that argument stops them and causes them to use their brain.

[Strawman]

156. Polls are bad for measuring true public opinion on this

I'm skeptical of any poll on something like this. People's thinking on a subject like evolution is too complex to be lumped into these general categories. Also I beleive there are social desirability biases to appear religious that skew the results. People may feel like they are being asked to be skeptical about the power of God or to affirm it, and they assume that most people, including the interviewer, are religious.

Polls are good for predicting election outcomes for for determining preference between a set of candidates, etc., but not always as good at determining what the public is thinking on issues.

[ECH1969]

159. Morons

[goodboy]

164. nobody said we're the smartest bunch...(nt)

[GeorgeGist]

165. Which explains a lot about why most Americans...

has evolved so little in the last 229 years.

[wordout]

167. bush is chimp of the earth swinging tree to tree like his ancestors