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RapidCreek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-03 08:49 PM
Original message
New U.S. Commander Upset by Comments From Troops in Iraq
Edited on Thu Jul-17-03 04:24 PM by Skinner
General Unrest
New U.S. Commander Upset by Comments From Troops in Iraq

ABC NEWS
Tuesday Jul. 16, 2003 - The new U.S. war commander today took exception with American soldiers who, angry over extended tours of duty in Iraq, criticized Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld in televised interviews on ABCNEWS.

<SNIP>

"None of us that wear this uniform are free to say anything disparaging about the secretary of defense, or the president of the United States," said Gen. John Abizaid, the head of U.S. Central Command.

But several of the wives of soldiers from the 3rd Infantry Division who talked to ABCNEWS said today that their husbands spoke the truth and they wanted those views heard.

"They feel that their mission is completed. They feel that they came, did what they went over there to do. And, I mean, they're done," said Rhonda Vega, whose husband is Sgt. Felipe Vega.

Sgt. Vega, in the interview with ABCNEWS' Jeffrey Kofman, said it was not easy to maintain morale in his platoon when the Army keeps changing the orders. "They turn around and slap you in the face," he said. When asked if that's the way it feels, he said, "Yeah, kicked in the guts, slapped in the face."

Another soldier who was interviewed, Spc. Clinton Deitz, said he had a message for the defense secretary. "If Donald Rumsfeld was here," he said, "I'd ask him for his resignation."


<SNIP end>


<SNIP>

<SNIP end>

Officially, a non-commsioned soldier cannot be court-martialed for making such comments. And here is why....


The Limits of Free Speech in the Military:
Can Public Expressions of Discontent by U.S. Troops in Iraq Be Punished?



By DEAN G. FALVY

Thursday, Jun. 19, 2003


<SNIP>

As if the fruitless hunt for weapons of mass destruction and persistent rumors of intelligence manipulation weren't annoying enough, the Pentagon faces a new headache: rumblings of discontent from soldiers in the field.

The putative liberation of Iraq has turned into grinding, dangerous occupation duty - exacting a steady toll in lives and morale. And some disgruntled troops have begun complaining about ambiguous missions and delayed homecomings.

Perhaps the most colorful comment came from Pfc. Matthew C. O'Dell, an infantryman stationed in Iraq. According to The New York Times, O'Dell told a reporter, "You call Donald Rumsfeld and tell him our sorry asses are ready to go home. Tell him to come spend a night in our building."


<SNIP end>


<SNIP>

On first glance, Private O'Dell might seem to be imperiled by Article 88 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice. It prohibits "Contempt Toward Officials," and it's possible that O'Dell's comments could be read as contemptuous toward Rumsfeld.

But a closer look shows that O'Dell's comments fall outside Article 88, which states:



EDITED BY ADMIN: COPYRIGHT

<SNIP end>


Abizaids assertion that a non-coms verbalized criticism of Rumsfeld is punishable under the UCMJ is nothing more than pure unadulterated bullshit and he goddamn well knows it. It is one more slap in the face to our military, one more lie, and one more attempt by this administration to terrorize Americans into docile servitude.

Odd don't you think, that the "liberal media" failed to nail his ass to the shit house wall after this utterance. I would surmise they never will either. We woudn't want to many dog faces calling a spade a spade, while they're working as security gaurds for Kellog Browne and Root.

I have mailed the major networks and complained about their lack of interest in protecting the legal free speech rights of those non-coms who are risking their lives in Iraq....I would encourage you to do so also.

Rapid Creek
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-03 08:57 PM
Response to Original message
1. Not many would know as much about the rules as you do. Bravo.
.
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NIGHT TRIPPER Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-17-03 01:55 AM
Response to Reply #1
29. here's some freedom of speech
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indictrichardperle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-03 08:57 PM
Response to Original message
2. Genl Abizaid brown-nosing Rummy
All the Generals with integrity and balls, have been run off by Rummy, Wolfowitz and Perle.

Thats a dangerous combination, Neo-con intellectual cowards...and quisling "yes-men".

McCaffrey, who i dont particularly like, ripped on Rummy pretty good today on MSNBC, calling him "ridiculous".
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atreides1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-03 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #2
11. It's still to early to tell
The general knows that enlisted troops cannot be charged for their comments, they can't even legally be given a reprimand. I think that the general realized this and was playing to SecDef, giving him a
bone so to speak.

Also remember that the general was the first one to say officially that this was a guerilla war, and that the enemy is getting better.
This was a contradiction to what Rummy has been saying, Abizaid also
stated that the war was not over, this contradicts Top Gun George, when he stated that is was "MISSION ACCOMPLISHED".

Let's give Abizaid a little time, he's still new at the job. If he starts the ass-kissing like Franks did, then let's trash the traitor.
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indictrichardperle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-03 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #11
16. Sorry, but
only boot-lickers get promoted.

Anyone who questions Rummy, Wolfowitz and the neo-cons arent seeking "career advancement". Yea im sure this guy was given Frank's job because he told Rummy what he didnt want to hear. Vince Brooks will get the job next.
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atreides1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-17-03 09:43 AM
Response to Reply #16
43. That's Funny
I got promoted when I was in the Army, does that make me a boot licker? Or do you just apply genralizations as a habit?
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chiburb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-17-03 07:42 AM
Response to Reply #11
36. I agree, let's wait and see...
Maybe, just maybe, the brass at the Pentagon who hate Rummy and Wolfie are smelling some blood in the water? For this general to go so far off-script with "guerrilla" and "year-long" deployments, only a week after Rummy angrily denied it was anything like "guerrilla", seems like a clear message: We're telling the truth, and FU Rummy if you don't like it.

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uhhuh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-03 08:57 PM
Response to Original message
3. Fantastic!!
I was wondering why those soldiers only went after rumsfeld. I also wondered why ABC would risk getting those guys in trouble. THis shows that both the troops and ABC knows more about the military than the idiots in charge! Great!
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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-03 08:58 PM
Response to Original message
4. SCREW YOU ABIZIAID
The head of U.S. Central Command ----ABIZIAID---- said the war is now A GORILLA (sic) WAR.

What an imbicile.

Of course it is a GORILLA War. The local population does not want the united states troops (gorillas) led by you to "Liberate them" anymore.

What part of this don't you understand.

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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-03 08:58 PM
Response to Original message
5. Thanks RC
interesting post
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RapidCreek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-17-03 04:30 AM
Response to Reply #5
30. Glad you took the time to read it!!!
and you are very welcome!

Peace and Inner Harmony,

Rapid Creek
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-03 09:00 PM
Response to Original message
6. Thanks for the reminder.
:thumbsup:
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Stuckinthebush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-03 09:02 PM
Response to Original message
7. They are losing...
Edited on Wed Jul-16-03 09:19 PM by Stuckinthebush
When they (the administration) have to publicly state that soldiers shouldn't make negative comments about the Secretary of Defense or the President then this means they have lost the PR battle.

The soldiers are pissed. They hate this administration and they are growing more sickened by the lack of planning for this "war".

While I very much want to see these men and women home, I am encouraged by this turn of events.

So, keep telling them that they can't speak ill of the POTUS or the SOD. That will make them even more sickened by the admin.

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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-03 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. 5 MORE OF YOUR SUBORDINATES DIED TODAY ABIZIAID
What are you going to do about it. Maybe stick you nose up a friendly place EH?

The incompetent are now in charge

Kill the Messenger you Moron!!!
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-03 09:08 PM
Response to Original message
9. Griping is a GI's only sacred right
The military leaders found nothing wrong when it was Clinton that was on the receiving end, but hear the grunts bitch about Bush & Co, and the threats and crackdown comes.

What could they posssibly do to the grunts? Any disciplinary action that is taken means that the grunt will have to be taken out of the combat zone, which is exactly what they want.

I saw one of the military wifes being interviewed in Hinesville about her husband with the 3rd ID, and she said that as soon as he got back to Ft. Stewart, he was getting out of the Army. No reenlistment for him!
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-03 09:09 PM
Response to Original message
10. A copy of the Free Speech article
Edited on Wed Jul-16-03 09:11 PM by Walt Starr
needs to be sent to the wives of the members of the 3rd ID.

And specifically, they need to know about these articles:

888. ART. 88. CONTEMPT TOWARD OFFICIALS

Any commissioned officer who uses contemptuous words against the President, the Vice President, Congress, the Secretary of Defense, the Secretary of a military department, the Secretary of Transportation, or the Governor or legislature of any State, Territory, Commonwealth, or possession in which he is on duty or present shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.

889. ART. 89 DISRESPECT TOWARD SUPERIOR COMMISSIONED OFFICER

Any person subject to this chapter who behaves with disrespect toward his superior commissioned officer shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.


All of this is located right here:

http://www.military-network.com/main_ucmj/main_ucmj.htm
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RapidCreek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-03 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. sounds like a great idea!!!
Do any of you folks know of message boards frequented by military wives? If so please PM me with a list. I would be very grateful.

Peace and Inner Harmony,

Rapid Creek
USN VET
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Mari333 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-17-03 08:38 AM
Response to Reply #12
39. Try this site
Edited on Thu Jul-17-03 08:39 AM by Mari333
http://www.mfso.org/


edit to add: hey! over 3000 posts for me and I didnt notice til now.
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Sushi_lover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-03 09:36 PM
Response to Original message
13. The husbands will let the wives do the talking then
Expect their emails to their wives to contain pictures too. These troops have digital cameras.
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-03 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. As long as the soldiers are enlisted, they can call Rummy a dipshit
to every camera filming live on the nightly news and there is not thing one anybody can do about it.

Article 88 specifically makes it a court martial offense for COMMISSIONED OFFICERS. Enlisted men can criticize political figures all that they want.
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LiberalLibra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-17-03 08:41 AM
Response to Reply #14
40. We need a couple of good consitutional lawyers willing to do pro bono....
....work just in case. I wouldn't put it past these jerks to court martial a few military personnel just to make a point.
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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-03 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. WHAT THE HELL IS THIS RUMDUMB
More of Wolfie, Rumdumb, Cheney and the CHIMP'S handiwork. Tell this to his/her family.

The news blackout of this stuff is almost total

""
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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-03 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #13
22. TOTAL PRESS BLACKOUT
Reuters, Al Jazeera and others have the other side of what's going on.
Faux news is the propoganda arm of the Pentagon.
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Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-03 09:54 PM
Response to Original message
17. What will he be saying several years from now?
We're expected to be in Iraq for as many as 10 years. Suppose after the bullshit our soldiers just refuse to re-up. Will we bring back the draft?
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Jacobin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-03 09:55 PM
Response to Original message
18. Screw him. If he doesn't like the words, wait until
the FRAGGING starts.

Just fricking wait.

:mad:
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DrBB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-03 09:56 PM
Response to Original message
19. Shut up, he explained.
It's important that the leaders be unaware of any morale problems. It's even more important, of course, that the American public, which is footing the 100s-of-billion-dollar bill for this fun little escapade in Iraq also be kept unaware of any morale problems. Best if the civilian leadership also be kept in the dark about this. Obviously, morale problems are best delt with by disciplining those who are experiencing them.

Or in the immortal words of some unknown martinet destroyer captain in WWII, "It has come to our attention that there is a morale problem aboard this vessel. All leaves are hereby cancelled until morale improves. That is all."
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RapidCreek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-03 10:24 PM
Response to Original message
20. I'm kicking this cause it's damned important
RC
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young_at_heart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-03 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. Agreed....muzzling of the troops is not the way to go
This is not the country I grew up in....I'm 63 yers old and I've never experienced such feelings....of living in a "foreign" land!
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-03 11:13 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. Why should Our Soldiers Be Used?
They went in good faith to fight the enemy and liberate a people, and come home. They risked their lives in combat, willingly. Now the third infantry is being told they will stay in a hostile country and be sitting ducks for dissidents. There is no rotation or exit plan by this administration. The only thing Bush has done well is to get the oil protected and flowing...to hell with our soldiers but his contributors are smiling...big time.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-03 11:49 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. They're not "dissidents".
They're Iraqi "my country right or wrong," "love it or leave it" patriots!

What? "Moral relativism" you say? Uh-huh. :eyes:
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Mari333 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-17-03 08:44 AM
Response to Reply #21
41. YEP
I know the feeling...!! for the last 2 years I feel like Im in a nightmarish fascist country that makes no sense to me, a place of neurosis, terror, fear, and NOT the country I thought we were becoming...Im 52 and I was an atomic age baby, so my childhood was spent ducking under school desks terrified of being nuked...But I thought perhaps after the 60's, out of the horrors of the 50s', there might be some progressive hope and change..
all of that has turned into a nightmare of epidemic proportions as I age..I dont want to leave this insane place to my kids to grow up in...or my grandkids..!
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NYC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-03 11:36 PM
Response to Original message
24. Thank you for this informative post.
I had been concerned about repercussions.
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RapidCreek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-17-03 01:52 AM
Response to Reply #24
28. My Pleasure NYC
I think it is very important our enlisted men know that they are free to speak their minds.....it is equally important for us to encourage them to do so.

RC
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benfranklin1776 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-03 11:37 PM
Response to Original message
25. Great legal info!
Edited on Wed Jul-16-03 11:39 PM by benfranklin1776
Thanks much.

This incident merely serves to underscore the human consequences of political leaders' deceptions. I am sure these troops were thoroughly indoctrinated and regaled with neocon fairy tales about how the war would avenge Spetember 11th, protect the US from vast stockpiles of weapons which could be launched at any second, how the battle would be a cakewalk, how they would be welcomed with rose petals and wine and how they would be home by the fourth of july. Needless to say they now realize just how much they have been lied to and are recoiling from the depth of the deceit and the conditions they find themselves in. So they are quite naturally angry at those responsible for putting them in this mess, as I would be if I were in their shoes. Yes I think it a splendid idea for Rumsmelled and Wolfowitz, and of course dick and george, to be sent to take their places since it was their delusional quest for empire, PNAC that spawned this whole sordid lethal mess.
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RapidCreek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-17-03 07:27 AM
Response to Reply #25
35. Your Welcom Ben!
RC
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JohnOneillsMemory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-17-03 12:36 AM
Response to Original message
27. Kick. Send this story to every high schooler being lobbied by the army.
They'll not get much fodder to imperialise with if teens are told "when you criticise authority, you'll get busted." What teenager wouldn't want to play 'video games with live ammo!' under those rules? What if they gave a war and nobody came?
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Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-17-03 05:08 AM
Response to Original message
31. All Abizaid need do is issue a gag order
Simply order that enlisted personnel not give any opinion, pro or con, about the SOD. Then any criticism becomes disobeying a lawful order.


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VietVet007 Donating Member (4 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-17-03 06:48 AM
Response to Original message
32. Professional Soldiers?????
:bounce: "It's very unfortunate that soldiers, professional soldiers, made comments like that," he said in his inaugural briefing at the Pentagon after taking control of Central Command from Gen. Tommy Franks, who retired. "Whatever action may be taken, whether it's a verbal reprimand or something more stringent, is up to the commanders on the scene."



To the US Commander: Four year enlistees are not considered to be professional soldiers. That is a deliberate play on words.
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BeatBush Donating Member (17 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-17-03 06:56 AM
Response to Reply #32
33. they
are more "professional" than he is since they are on the front lines. whatever happened to "support the troops"
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DoctorMyEyes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-17-03 07:21 AM
Response to Original message
34. Good to Know!
Thanks for posting this here. I just heard Matt Lauer saying that the soldiers faced court martials for speaking out.

I'll be sending him an e-mail!
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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-17-03 07:43 AM
Response to Original message
37. The fucking Generals don't like to hear the truth, 'eh?
If you don't listen to the man in the trench, the trench will never be dug.

So let's get the firing squad in order and start shooting the grunts, 'eh?

What a Goddamn attitude!!
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ChickMagic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-17-03 08:34 AM
Response to Original message
38. Thank you so much!
I somehow knew that soldiers had a right to complain - that's the only way we can hear how things are really going. I didn't know the specifics, so I'm very grateful to you for pointing that out. :loveya:
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Chovexani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-17-03 09:20 AM
Response to Original message
42. A kick for free speech
This is important info! :kick:
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mightywurlitzer Donating Member (27 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-17-03 10:31 AM
Response to Original message
44. I was just thinking...
This would probably be the best angle Dems could use in 2004. If they started putting out a strong "Let's bring 'em home" message, repugs would be unable to deal with it. Think of the military votes...
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newyawker99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-17-03 04:22 PM
Response to Original message
45. RapidCreek
Per DU copyright rules
please post only
4 paragraphs from
the news source.

Thank you.

NYer99
DU Moderator
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