Most Americans Wants Troops Out After Iraq Referendum

[struggle4progress]

Polling Data

As you may know, in October Iraqis will vote on whether to accept or reject a new constitution in a referendum. If the referendum passes, should America:

Maintain current troop levels while working to ensure the implementation of democracy 29%
Assume the implementation of democracy is achieved and begin a process of withdrawing troops 57%
No answer 14%

Source: Knowledge Networks / Program on International Policy Attitudes / The Chicago Council on Foreign Relations
Methodology: Online interviews to 808 American adults, conducted from Sept. 15 to Sept. 21, 2005. Margin of error is 3.5 per cent.

http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/index.cfm/fuseaction/viewItem/itemID/9214

[Starbucks Anarchist]

1. Most Americans are idiots.

Don't they realize the oil/bases connection?

[struggle4progress]

2. Most people are neither idiotic nor evil: they are absorbed with their ..

.. own problems, under enormous stress from their responsibilities and therefore too busy to become well-informed, and they naturally want naturally to believe the easy answers, since the hard answers are demanding and stressful.

But when all the chips are down and they stop their own busy-ness long enough to look at the world around them, many can be counted on to behave decently even if it costs them ...

[melody]

5. excellent post n/t

[Starbucks Anarchist]

10. I get so tired of that excuse.

Everyone has a duty to be informed of their surroundings. I'm sure the vast majority of DUers lead busy lives, yet we still manage to stay informed, don't we?

[melody]

19. It may also be

The things of which you are unconscious, they are conscious of. We all fall short of the goal of perfection.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

21. Who's perfect?

I don't expect anyone to know absolutely everything about anything. But I do expect people to have a basic understanding and knowledge of their government's actions.

I'm sure you remember the poll that showed 70% of respondents believing Iraq was behind 9/11--that's the start of what we're dealing with.

It may be too much to expect people to know every wrinkle in the Plame affair, for example, but a general understanding should be required in an intelligent society. Anything less is a disservice to all of us.

[melody]

45. I absolutely expect people who vote to have this awareness, yes

But I try to deal with my own internal moron, as I've said. Judging other peoples' relative "intellect" tends to blind me to my own perpetual ability to screw things up. lol

[struggle4progress]

29. The duty to be informed is part of a larger duty to make a serious ..

.. contribution to improving the situation

Whenever you call people idiots, you are choosing: rather than winning, you prefer to be a self-righteous voice crying alone in the wilderness.

But only rarely are any folk persuaded by those who call them idiots.

Idiots, of course, do exist, and there really are braindead zombies walking among us, too: I say, however, that they are not the majority.

The issue is simply: who can we reach, how can we reach them, and what can we do together?

If you reach out, you will find that many of the sleepwalkers are experiencing distressful cognitive dissonance and would really prefer to be awake -- unless being awakened offers only you, in their faces, cursing at their idiocy ...

[tainowarrior]

25. this is an easy escape

I struggle with bills, never have any money left over to save anything, sometimes even have to borrow money from parents to help here and there...and I found the time to find out the truth.

The first poster has it right. I believe a sizeable portion of this country are jingoistic, America#1 idiots. There's nothing that can dissuade them from being the way they are, except the reality that they can't force themselves on other people because those people will kill them.

[struggle4progress]

26. What I suggest is neither "easy" nor an "escape." To win politically ..

.. we must transcend self-righteousness and try to reach people WHERE THEY ARE.

Calling them names may feel good to us, but naturally it does not help change THEIR minds.

Jingoistic idiots, of course, do exist and can be reached only slowly by degrees. Such people, however loud they may be, are not a majority of the population, although they often attempt to create the impression that they are, by bullying others into silence.

The trick is to understand who we can reach and to reach them. I say we will reach MOST people, if we proceed correctly ...

[tainowarrior]

27. I'll leave that to the soulless, spineless Democrats in the party

I, however, am not in the mood to try to sit down bible-thumping, war-hungry, orc-like Bubba and give him the Democratic pitch.

I'd rather not even waste the time. Let reality persuade them. Reality has all the time in the world to sit down with Bubba and let him know he screwed up...like right now! :) Bubba sure is learning the HARD WAY that they didn't want us in Iraq, and he's findout the hard way that gas prices rise when you screw around with the source of petroleum (Middle East countries), and he's sure learning that other countries do take retaliatory steps against his country, which is why prices for everything are rising. He's also learning that a lot of the benefits he assumed were always there and magically appeared at the institutions he frequents for aid, come from taxes (the very same he opposed). He's learning what it means to run multiple wars, huge domestic budgets, and give the rich tax cuts.

It's wonderful! Bubba is learning fast, 'cause he's quickly starting to call his slimy Republican representative to complain about gas prices. Bubba ain't caring about abortion or gay marriage anymore. He's worried about his dear old Ford Truck...it's just not running as it did before.

Screw Bubba. Screw him HARD. I hope he squirms. I'll weather this storm, but just so I can enjoy seeing Bubba squeal like the goddamn pig he is.

Folks, sorry, but I've had it with Republicans. I had to rant.:mad: :rant:

[struggle4progress]

28. Fun rant. But it has nothing whatsoever to do with what I said. eom

[Starbucks Anarchist]

31. If people didn't bother to stay informed before the election...

then why the hell would they try now? What makes you think they'd listen to reason?

[struggle4progress]

38. I do not know whether people "listen to reason." I do know that ..

.. many people will pay close attention to short ethical arguments supported by facts.

Most people want to be fundamentally decent.

So I think many people DO listen to discussions related to fundamental questions of decency, if matters are presented to them in ways they can stomach.

We do not control the apparatus for mass production of consciousness: these instruments are currently controlled by a small group with interests very different from the material interests of most people.

As a result, the population at large is flooded by propaganda.

Rather than being angry at the victims of such brainwashing, I simply wonder if there are not effective techniques to offer alternative views to them.

Calling them idiots, I suspect, does not qualify as an effective technique.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

40. We do control the apparatus for mass production of consciousness.

The very existence of DU is proof of that. The information DU and other resources like it put forth are accessible by nearly everybody -- if they choose to take advantage. Sadly, most don't.

[tainowarrior]

34. yes it did

You're asking me to postpone my rage and my disbelief of the idiocy of Republicans to try to sit down and persuade them. I respect and admire that you have the patience. I simply said I don't, and that Republicans can go screw themselves.

But, at the end of the day, I'll be supporting people like you in your attempts to persuade them, and people like you running for office.

I'm just honest enough to admit that I'd rather put my fist through their empty heads and soulless hearts, than persuade them.

We need all types of Democrats, Che Guevara types, and Martin Luther King types.

[struggle4progress]

37. Actually, I'm just disagreeing with the premise "Most Americans ..

.. are idiots."

It's fine with me if you're angry: I think it's an appropriate reaction to the context in which we find ourselves.

Nor would I encourage you to waste your breath trying to persuade a completely unreachable fraction of the population, some of whom who may indeed have "empty heads and soulless hearts."

And I completely agree with you that without a broad spectrum of opposition, we will lose.

But I completely disagree with the assertion "Most Americans are idiots." I believe a large number of them can be reached by some sector or other of opposition. And I believe that a large number of them must be reached by some sector of the opposition. I further say that regardless of your tendency, you cannot reach people by calling them idiots. This is true whether or not you believe in mainstream processes and mainstream political parties ...

[tainowarrior]

42. call me pessimistic

but after studying American history, I'm disappointed in the social justice potential of this population. And it makes sense to me. We're the Empire of turn. We're the priviliged elite in the world. The priviliged elite are not interested in social justice because social justice inevitably means that we have to share what we got. The system is bread to keep Americans dumb, shopping, and consenting to everything the elites want it to do.

I gave up a long time ago the idea that one day I'd see a President I'd liked, or that "my" party will win, or that I'm going to see the type of society I want to see here in the U.S. I realized early that most Americans are closet xenophobes, racists, and, like the Germans in Nazi times, willing and wanting to support a jingoistic military state. In fact, I'd say the military IS the most important institution in this country. Everything revolves around it (civic patriotism, our national budget, our national history is nothing more than war after war). AMericans cannot conceive of an American nationalism or patriotism that is healthily based on a superior domestic society (such as the Scandinavians). Their nationalism is based, very crudely put by the Team American puppet movie, on the slogan, "America, phuck yeah!"

Are there pockets of smart, justice-minded people? Sure. Go live in the Northeast and primarily in cities. That's where you find the most artistic, most cultural, most intellectual, and generally progressive people. But, the rest of the country is a wasteland of religious and scholarly idiots (with your ocassional isolated progressive who feels himself/herself surrounded by rural hillbilly rednecks). I guess we'll have to disagree on this.

[melody]

4. Now there's a bigoted statement

No, most people have idiotic opinions of various kinds - we all share that as humans. No one nationality has the corner on idiocy - Americans included. Our culture is not "number one" in anything in the world, including that.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

9. I didn't say we had a monopoly on idiocy.

I was addressing the results of the poll which involved Americans. If they polled another country with the sane results, I'd say the same thing about them.

[melody]

12. you can't say "most" about any group...you haven't met most Americans

Also, we all know the relative verity of polls.

>Most Americans are idiots.

That's the element that offends me. Most Americans aren't any one thing. All groups are relative to perception. All we have are individuals and each one is different.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

14. Yes, we're all different.

I'm sure all the people polled are different in various ways, yet the majority of them said they wanted (and expected) a cutback in troops. Therefore, they are alike in that particular sentiment, which, backed by the available oil/bases evidence, will not come to fruition. Yet they are not well-informed enough to believe otherwise.

And, yes, polls are tricky, but they are generally fairly accurate. We believe the polls that show Bush in the low 40s as accurate, so why don't we look at this poll the same way?

[melody]

15. there's a difference between "ignorance" and "idiocy"

We are all ignorant in one area or another. That doesn't make us idiots.

I always use my own experience in tandem with poll information. My experience is Bush's "popularity" is MUCH lower than 40%.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

18. Simply not knowing the facts is ignorance.

But willful ignorance is considered idiocy, at least IMO.

I think these poll results speak for the latter since anyone who didn't do basic research regarding oil and bases when the facts were so obvious is practicing willful ignorance (idiocy).

[melody]

20. Not everyone has an equal ability to discern fine detail

We all fall short in some areas but not others. It's a matter of gradation, is what I'm saying. And I also don't think name-calling helps a lot, except in the minority of cases with people who are clearly sociopathic.

I'm happy to call anyone connected with George Bush a MAJOR idiot AND an ignorant putz, however. lol

[Starbucks Anarchist]

22. Name-calling is good, IMO.

The only ones I would refrain from calling idiots are those with actual mental handicaps who can't help it in the first place.

But the majority of people have the ability to think and discern, fine detail or not. It's just that they choose not to.

[tainowarrior]

36. so, what do you call people that can't discern fine details?

Idiots.

That's why there's smart people (people who can discern fine details) and then there's idiots (those who can't). Dummies, morons, dunces, whatever your favorite synonymous adjective. There's a reason why in educated sectors of our society (actors, intellectuals, etc.) most people were against the war, and in the sectors of ignorance (religious faithful, rural populations, etc.) they were pro-war. Yes, I'm overgeneralizing. I'm sure there were some rural dwellers who are here on DU and just as smart as everyone else. I'm sure there's religiously faithful people who are progressive and against the war. But my point is that, by and large, education mattered to your political perspective.

Either adjectives mean something or they don't. Let's not get so "support group mentality" that we can't use time-tested adjectives to describe particular realities. Granted, use them with caution, but sometimes, they fit.

If you can't discern fine details, you're an idiot. That's what seperates the smart from the idiot.

If you thought Saddam Hussein was Osama BIn Laden, you're an idiot. They don't even look alike.

If you thought Al-Qaeda was a country or was Iraq, you're an idiot. Try watching even CNN for a correction on that.

If you thought the poorest and weakest nation in the Middle East (since the 1990s) was a threat to the mightiest nation in the world, you're an idiot.

If you thought Saddam Hussein had the ability to deliver his so-called weapons (nobody ever talks about Iraq's lack of delivery missiles), you're an idiot.

If you thought we were going to be welcomed with flowers and kisses, you're an idiot.

Geesh, I'm not the smartest person in the world (by far), and yet I knew these were hyped bullshit from the beginning.

[melody]

44. No, that's an Aristotelian's inability to perceive fine detail

You're throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

There are gradations, is what I'm saying. None of us know the mind of god...we can attempt to make sweeping judgments for everyone but we only make ourselves look idiotic in the process.

I draw the line when some perspective is hurting another person. Otherwise, I deal with my own inner moron. I do enough stupid things to deal with in my own life. I leave it to you "smart people" to discern what is right for the universe. ;)

[tainowarrior]

35. I agree..

but the level of social, historical, and political idiocy evidenced by Americans is quite alarming. I think it is substantial, in comparison to other advanced nations.

I can forgive a Bedoin Arab in the middle of the Saudi desert for still believing in fairy tales, superstition, and religious dictates.

But, affluent Americans in the most powerful country in the world?

I don't forgive them for that. I don't forgive the Germans for falling for Hitler's siren call when they were the most advanced European nation at the time, I'm not gonna forgive Americans.

I do believe that most Americans ARE idiots, some more than others. If 80% of this nation felt Bush did a great job after 9/11, something is wrong, because he didn't do crap. He did some photo ops, and then invaded Taliban Afghanistan and messed up at Tora Bora.

Some of that 80% includes Democrats as well.

[cassiepriam]

23. Can't leave, have to steal their oil first.....

Wasn't that the whole point of murdering many of the people
and ruining their country??

[termo]

43. well...

http://media.spikedhumor.com/3029/On%20The%20Streets%20Of%20America%203.wmv

not sure it is a real video or a fake, but I laughed my ass off!

[Lexingtonian]

3. Interestingly

they didn't poll for what happens should the ratification fail.

It must be too horrible to contemplate.

[ECH1969]

7. Actually that would probably be a good thing

The Sunnis would be very happy, the Shia would be unhappy, and the newly elected government in December with Sunni participation would work on a new Constitution.

[Lexingtonian]

13. I don't buy that rosy scenario

The 'Governing Council' would have to be dissolved and, yes, there would be an attempt to rerun the efforts of the past year- elections, forming an executive and legislature, etc. and another attempt at writing a constitution.

But the concept and process have already been given one great chance and that will not have failed on small details or marginal issues. It will have failed on fundamental issues in Iraq not being peaceably resolvable, and that by deliberate and fully debated choice of the major groups. To resolve them will, as I see it, take a civil war.

It may be possible to get another election in should ratification efforts fail. But what would the people who are elected to do- repeat what their predecessors (who were, mostly likely, they themselves) did in 2004 to similar effect? I don't think so. I think the electees will meet a few times and go home, declare that there's no room to be found on any side for further negotiation, and the civil war will simply break out.

[Why Syzygy]

24. That's what I was thinking . nt

[LibDemAlways]

6. Most people don't know and don't

want to know. The most reliable and predictable conversation-stopper among people I know is to bring up anything related to American foreign policy. If some media whore on the 6PM news tells them Iraqis will be voting on a new constitution and that democracy is coming to Iraq, they have no other frame of reference, so they believe it. People are happily and willfully ignorant, and when the troops don't start coming home, they'll gladly accept the next Bush Crime Family excuse. Beats thinking.

[frozenfishdemon]

8. let government form and leave

i think the troops should stay there as long as they want us and the second they say out we leave. and not help even if they beg us.... but after october, we should sit in the backseat.... now that Iraq has gone from an invasion to almost civil war.... the Sunnis need to grow up, and the Shiites should grow some balls.... and america was the only excuse the Sunnis needed to start attacking Shiites.

[LynnTheDem]

16. Ummm TOO LATE. The vast majority of Iraqis didn't want us there

in the first place. The vast majority of Iraqis have been saying GET THE HELL OUT OF OUR COUNTRY since the start.

[The_Casual_Observer]

11. American troops aren't leaving Iraq because of this

Even under the best circumstances, the troops would be invited to stay under some kind of agreement to provide regional security.

[deadparrot]

17. *ruffles the hair of the general public condescendingly*

Okay, guys. You keep on hoping.

[crankybubba]

30. whats his name

does not care what the public thinks. He will do what he wants (like invade iraq)

[damntexdem]

32. If the referendum doesn't pass: better pull them out after.

Wouldn't want U.S. troops to suffer from what Iraq will become.

[enigma000]

33. So if the Iraqis make a choice we don't like

We leave them to settle their national unity problems the good old fashion way: a bloody civil war that may drag in neighboring counties and that may well end in genocide.

Sorry America - You can't get off that easy. You are stuck until a cohesive national government is created and a functioning, non-political army is operational capable. I doubt anything will get your administration to back off this goal (at least for 2-3 years)

Everything else is just talk.

[Solly Mack]

39. "Assume the implementation of democracy is achieved"

LOLOLOLOLOLOL

Well why the hell not word it that way....shit, democracy is "assumed" to have been achieved in America too. It's a winning phrase...

LOLOLOLOLOLOL

I'm just getting a giggle out of the wording is all.

I want to see a poll that says

Since Iraq continues to be one huge lie after one huge lie, and we shouldn't have invaded to begin with, should the troops be withdrawn immediately...

[Disturbed]

41. The US/UK will stay in Iraq unless driven out by...

the will of al Sistani. He is the real leader in Iraq of most of the people.

Most Amerikans get their info about the Bush Admin. Wars from TV which is mainly RW propaganda.

The following article by Scott Ritter is accurate in my view.

http://www.commondreams.org/views05/1002-24.htm