Poll: Most Say Abandon Flooded New Orleans

[Eugene]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-5266236,00.html

Poll: Most Say Abandon Flooded New Orleans


Friday September 9, 2005 1:31 PM

AP Photo LADM115

By WILL LESTER

Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON (AP) - More than half the people in this country say the
flooded areas of New Orleans lying below sea level should be abandoned
and rebuilt on higher ground.

An AP-Ipsos poll found that 54 percent of Americans want the
four-fifths of New Orleans that was flooded by Hurricane Katrina
moved to a safer location.

Their skepticism about restoring New Orleans below sea level comes as
the public mood has darkened after one of the nation's worst natural
disasters.

Almost two-thirds, 65 percent, say the country is headed in the wrong
direction - up from 59 percent last month. President Bush's job
approval was at 39 percent, the lowest point since AP-Ipsos began
measuring public approval of Bush in December 2003.

more...

[Tesla]

1. They got those people in the Astrodome and made tham sign their

life away for $2000.
I'd love to see what they have to sign to get the voucher.

[Jamastiene]

42. I'd hate to imagine what it said in -72 point font only

viewable with a microscope. I am officially predicting that the poorer survivors and the black survivors who were lucky enough to have their homes left intact, but had to evacuate ( mandatory ) anyhow will have their homes & land taken away. Sadly, New New Orleans will probably be a super ritzy place only the richest of Bush's rich friends will be able to afford...

[chicagiana]

2. They need to raise the city ...

Jack up the historic and salvageable buildings. Fill everything else in. Landowners KEEP their right to the newly raised real estate.

New Orleans is where it is for a reason. Just like all those people living next to the Mississippi are there for a reason.

[Tace]

8. That Seems Reasonable To Me

Build a big wall, and raise the entire city 50 feet. Hey, they could charge all the municipalities in the nation to take their land-fill for a year or two.

[DBoon]

19. And keep some of the old city underground

Imagine tours of "underground New Orleans"

[M155Y_A1CH]

10. Erie canal was built for a reason

I'm not saying that the low lying areas
of NOLA should be abandoned.

It is one of our older cities and one of our few French cities. There are many great reasons to rebuild but I'm not sure that it's original purpose is still one of them.

If we decide that New Orleans should be completely rebuilt, we MUST decide to keep up with the levees. We need a "contract with New Orleans" that promises never to neglect the levees again.

[noonwitch]

18. We need to consult with The Netherlands about rebuilding

Their system of dikes and levees seems to be holding the ocean back from a good part of their country. They might have some ideas worth considering for the future.

[NickB79]

50. The Netherlands doesn't get 140 mph hurricanes

Sorry, but the Netherlands system of dikes and levees wouldn't have stood up any better than the New Orleans ones did. And with global warming heating up the Gulf, I would expect we will probably see a few more Katrina-size hurricanes in the next few decades along the Gulf Coast or Eastern seaboard.

[Igel]

21. The Erie canal was built to

get flour and meat and coal east to NYC and other urban areas, and move people and goods west to Cleveland and points west. Little drains into it, and it's not really a flood hazard or flood mitigation, since it has no real flow: it passes over rivers and streams.

It died when the St. Lawrence Seaway opened in response to ships that could haul goods more efficiently. It's still in existence, but mostly for pleasure craft and hikers/bikers.

[TankLV]

56. In fact, it has many bridges where the canal goes ABOVE the surrounding

land and roadways.

It has NOTHING to do with any type of flood control at all.

[txaslftist]

29. If "we" decide?

Shit. New Orleans has been flooded disastrously in the past a buncha times, all the way back to when the US was just 13 colonies. They've always rebuilt, even when it was a French city.

New Orleans didn't even want to be part of the US at the time of the Louisiana purchase, they wanted to remain French. Don't worry. New Orleans will rebuild, whether the feds help them or not.

There's a reason for a port where New Orleans is, and it is a vital seaport, as you can tell from your gas prices. The spirit of New Orleans isn't going anywhere either. It's not going to become rich white suburbia on the bayou or anything like that, and it will always be a rich cultural center.

"We" aren't deciding anything. New Orleans will be rebuilt because the people of New Orleans will rebuild it. Sure as the sun coming up tomorrow.

[Bridget Burke]

12. That's what Galveston did after the 1900 Storm that struck 105 years ago

The one that killed up to 8,000 people. At one point the whole island was covered by water. Storm surge destroyed everything in its path; some buildings on the landward side of the island were spared.

http://www.1900storm.com/index.lasso

The city (& the Feds) built a Seawall protecting the populated part of the island. Then the grade behind the wall was raised by pumping in dredge material. Every building & utility was raised, up to 11 feet.

Houston became the power in the region--the Storm was not the only reason. Some would say being less like Houston is not a curse. Galveston is now a charming, historical town. But people have now built far beyond the area behind the Seawall. And the 1900 Storm was only Force 4.

[Zynx]

38. Indeed. It makes no sense to thumb our nose at nature.

What does it prove?

[Pepperbelly]

51. I think that part of the problem is what is beneath the ground ...

as much as the elevation of the ground. New Orleans teeters right at the edge of the North American plate, and bedrock, which consists in NO's case of compacted clay, is 80 beneath the soft soil that makes up the city's surface.

So, my point is that if it is "raised", that would mean that EVERYTHING would have to go to bedrock or sink by compacting the ground beneath the structures.

[mcg]

54. "New Orleans is where it is for a reason" Yes, it's a major port,

"Vulnerable or not, New Orleans will rise again"

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-09-11-rebuildingneworleans_x.htm

Hastert is an idiot, and the republicans are idiots for not funding the improvement of the levees. Besides the potential danger to human lives, which became actual, it also made no economic sense. It was a very bad gamble born of greed and short-term thinking.

Many people think of jazz when they think of New Orleans. What I didn't think about until I read about it is that it is a very major port. It's pretty obvious with a little thought, after all, it's at the end of the Mississippi river. Duh. I can be excused for not realizing that, but the President of the United States? No way, inexcusable. This shows that bigotry is not just evil, it's stupid. The economic impact to our country for this shortsightedness will be enormous. Maybe if it weren't for bigotry and greed, the republicans would have seen that improving the levees would have been one of the greatest investments ever.

[jsamuel]

3. 39 percent job approval... in the 30's (now 2 major polls say in 30's)

this one and the American Research Group (36%)

[dmkinsey]

4. I'm sure most of that "majority"

don't have any idea what would actually be lost if those sub-sea level areas are abandoned.

[pnorman]

5. I don't have the experience or technological background on this.

But a nation as poweful and wealthy as ours should be able to figure out a way to rebuild and preserve it as a living monument to what it was, all during our Nation's history. The alternative would be a mammoth land rush, as a horde of greedy developers stake out their claims. the rest of the world will take due note of what choice we may make.

pnorman

[rodeodance]

6. as Blanco said a few days ago-they know not what they speak of.

paraphasing

[formerrepuke]

7. Well, the alternative scenario you offer seems like it will happen..

after all, the poor people are all gone from the city. Start the land specualting now, the prices are gonna be steep.

[mrbill]

11. ohhhh, no, the land prices are going to be cheap........

who would want to build in a flood plain?

[Maeve]

39. There is a plan to make it safer--has been for years

Listening to "Science Friday" on Talk of the Nation (NPR) yesterday...we have the ability to make it safer, rebuild the natural defenses that we destroyed and the cost would be fractional compared to the damage if we continue to ignore the probability of future storms in the area.

Not that this misadministration will listen...

[Kashka-Kat]

9. consult with the Netherlands

they don't seem to have problems keeping the sea out.

[Spinzonner]

13. How many hurricanes have they been hit by ?

or anything else equivalent to a category 4 or 5 hurricane

[Kashka-Kat]

14. got north sea gale force storms

interesting discussion pros/ cons (scroll down from 1st entry):

http://blogs.chron.com/sciguy/archives/2005/08/big_check_comin.html

different place obviously, but some similarities.

N.O. is a national treasure, a place unlike any other in the US due to French/Spanish heritage and add to that the culture of freed slaves and educated black people who settled there thru out 1700s/1800s. It has been said to be the capital of Black America. Unlike most of our historic sites where you might see people in period costume giving tours -- this is still(or was until recently) a living breathing city inhabited by descendants of the original settlers.

I'd much rather have N.O. than that bloody insane war in Iraq, and that is exactly how I would frame the choices-- $$ and resources and person-power going into our own infrastructure vs. sending it down the Halliburton toilet.

[daleo]

15. There was a huge storm in 1953

It flooded something like a quarter of the country, and killed tens of thousands. They have spent enormous sums on their dike system since then. Their population isn't all that averse to taxes, though.

[yellowcanine]

16. There are still problems though. WP article yesterday addressed this.

Apparently there are engineers in the Netherlands who are looking at New Orleans and figuring that there are lessons for them as well. They are talking about the possibility of having to permit more flooding in some areas in order to better protect the area below sea level (about 80% of the Netherlands).

[daleo]

20. It is good to learn from mistakes

I guess with 80% of the land below sea level, they don't have any choice. I didn't realize it was that much.

[Coastie for Truth]

44. North Sea Storms - NT

[Barrett808]

17. Anybody have those Bush approval graphs handy?

I'd really like to see the cliff Bush is falling off.

[cmd]

22. Yeah, a major port city

Most Americans think of NO as Mardi Gras. That's it. Party city. Nothing more. Do away with it. People have no idea of the importance of this city on their lives. When they are choking on higher prices I hope they remember NO.

[Igel]

23. I think they should abandon the lowest lying areas, and

find stable areas for the levees they do build. A 10-ft high levee's a lot easier to maintain than a 20-ft high levee. Pick a reasonable depth below sea level that makes sense from a geological, structural, and city-organizational point of view.

Most, but not all, of the touristy historic sections can easily be preserved, as well as some of the "traditional communities".

Clearing out flood-prone areas is not a new idea. It was controversial a few decades ago.

[freedom_to_read]

24. I agree

It pains me to think of losing the historic chaos that was the 9th ward, but the damage has already been done.

[barb162]

26. I agree, those lowest level areas should maybe be made into parks

or something. Let's face it, a lot of the people who left NOLA are not coming back.

[demo dutch]

25. I don't believe that Poll at all

[darkism]

27. It seems they only polled the Hastert family n/t

[ninkasi]

28. This is an open letter published in Galveston...

I got this a day or two ago from TexasDems2 at Yahoo Groups

This open letter to the evacuees displaced by Katrina was published this morning in the Galveston Daily News was written by our friend and great public servant, State District Judge Susan Criss.

Dear Visitors from Louisiana, Mississippi & Alabama,

The first thing that I want you to know is that you are very welcome here. We are so glad that you are safe.

Many, many people here want to do what ever is necessary to help you. Please let us know what you need.

The second thing that I want you to know is that we understand what is to suffer through and survive hurricanes here. Although many of us have survived dangerous and destructive storms, none of us have suffered through a storm as horrific as Katrina.

But this island that is our home has. Up until Katrina this nation's worst natural disaster was the Storm of 1900. September 8, 2005 is the 105th anniversary of that hurricane.

Over 8000 lives were lost. Three fourths of Galveston was completely destroyed by the 150 miles an hour winds and the 15 and a half foot storm surge.

There had not been any evacuation. The storm was not expected.

People climbed up to their attics. Many ended up spending the night clinging to tree limbs.

When daylight came and the storm had passed they found corpses all over the streets and yards.

Water was contaminated. Clara Barton, the founder of The American Red Cross, came here to help with the relief effort. There was concern over sanitation, disease, disposing of the dead and looting. Galveston was under martial law for a week.

Some questioned whether it made sense to rebuild. Some moved up the coast to to Houston. But most stayed and began the challenging work of rebuilding.

Before the storm Galveston was 9 feet below sea level. After the cleanup, city officials decided to "raise the grade". The entire city was raised by 17 feet. The lifting of the city began in 1903 and cost about 3 and a half million dollars. They also built our seawall.

In the year 2000 we celebrated the 100 year anniversary of Galveston's surviving the Storm of 1900. We thanked God that our ancestors had the courage and foresight to rebuild this beautiful home of ours. We realized that many bonds had formed between families who rode out the storm together. Those bonds have survived several generations and exist today.

A statute of a man holding his family with his hand reaching up towards heaven was put on the seawall to honor the spirit of the survivors.

We live in a wonderful city that was rebuilt after being destroyed by a hurricane.

We know that your cities can be rebuilt. If it was possible in 1900, it is possible now.

Our ancestors could not have rebuilt this city without hope despite overwhelming desperation and fear. Please remember that hope is there for you also.

May God bless you and keep you safe.

Judge Susan Criss

www.co.galveston.tx.us/judgecriss

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TexasDemocrat2/

[Bridget Burke]

31. Good find.

The Galveston Storm happened just 105 years ago.

And the city was rebuilt. Nobody thought to ask anybody's permission.

[The Wielding Truth]

52. What a refreshing letter! Susan Criss seems like a compassionate leader.

[NuttyFluffers]

59. wow, beautiful! great find!

"We live in a wonderful city that was rebuilt after being destroyed by a hurricane.

We know that your cities can be rebuilt. If it was possible in 1900, it is possible now."

the truth is often as succinct as that.

[indepat]

30. The 39% are freaking fools or religious zealots and die-hard ideologues

[A-Possum]

32. Galveston and the Netherlands

When any Republican starts whining about writing off New Orleans, just say, so do you think the Netherlands should have been abandoned in 1953? Here's a good site to point to for that history: http://www.thehollandring.com/1953-ramp.shtml

And Galveston...the houses themselves were jacked up and the ground raised under them. So the city still has beautiful old houses that are really a joy to see. It is still in danger of hurricanes, though--should it be abandoned? How good is the evacuation plan there? There's only ONE causeway out of the city, even now.

[blindpig]

33. well, sea levels are rising.........

and New Orleans is sinking. These two facts are indisputable. The wild card of Climate Change can't help.

Just because some god damned rethugs said it doesn't absolutely make it untrue(though that's a good bet).

It's far past time that the human species stopped trying to act like the masters of the universe. Yes, we could bring in the Dutch experts, spend a godawful pile of cash and buy some time , a few decades perhaps. But I think it would be better to start living with the Earth again instead of upon it.

I never got around to seeing NO, one of the few cities I'd want to visit, and now I guess I never will. Because if they do rebuild, and I expect they will, I'm afraid it will be a caricature of it's former self, a theme park. Too goddamned bad, too bad!

[kestrel91316]

34. "rebuild on higher ground"???? Oh, right. Just confiscate land in, say,

Metairie and tear the homes down and build more homes and call it New Orleans. I think the residents of those places with higher ground might object to being taken over.

[Coastie for Truth]

45. San Franciso was rebuilt after 1906 and 1989.

Los Angeles-Northridge was rebuilt.
Galveston was rebuilt.

Halliburton isn't the only engineering firm around - nor are they the best.

[kestrel91316]

47. San Francisco was rebuilt in the exact same location, not nextdoor.

Northridge didn't need to be "rebuilt". The entire San Fernando Valley had spotty areas of damage to be repaired but an entire community did not need to be "rebuilt". I should know, I lived through it and am still here.

If you are talking about rebuilding on "higher ground" I want to know how this is physically possible, other than bringing in fill dirt to raise the level of the soil. The higher ground that is there is either already built upon and survived, or is in other cities.

[Coastie for Truth]

48. My post was talking about Amsterdam-Rotterdam flood control

(I live between the San Andreas and Calaveras/Hayward Faults, in the Guadalupe River-Coyote Creek-Alviso Spill Way in the Red, "VIII-Very Strong" region at the southern tip of SF Bay in the map below-->

<>

My Dad's sister and brother lived in the San Fernando Valley. So, I am familiar with the area.

[Endangered Specie]

35. Chicago was rebuilt

I see no reason why NO shouldnt be rebuilt as well.

[reprobate]

36. The biggest problem in rebuilding NO is the pollution.

AI heard a biochemist (I think that's what his title was) on FreeSpeach TV talking about it yesterday. He said that with all the chemicals in the water that toxicity was horrific. Even when the water had been dried, the soil would be toxic for feet under ground level. Dry, the wind will carry toxic dust with it.

IOW, the top few feet of the surface will have to be removed and a safe place found to store it for generations. He left the impression that the entire area will be unsafe for the foreseeable future.

So it's not just a matter of 'should' NO be rebuilt. It's a matter of 'can' NO be rebuilt safely.

[PaulaFarrell]

37. New Orleans has to stay where it is

according to this article (which I posted in another thread but I think it's relevant here)


http://www.stratfor.com/news/archive/050903-geopolitics...
<snip>

A simple way to think about the New Orleans port complex is that it is where the bulk commodities of agriculture go out to the world and the bulk commodities of industrialism come in. The commodity chain of the global food industry starts here, as does that of American industrialism. If these facilities are gone, more than the price of goods shifts: The very physical structure of the global economy would have to be reshaped. Consider the impact to the U.S. auto industry if steel doesn't come up the river, or the effect on global food supplies if U.S. corn and soybeans don't get to the markets.

The problem is that there are no good shipping alternatives. River transport is cheap, and most of the commodities we are discussing have low value-to-weight ratios. The U.S. transport system was built on the assumption that these commodities would travel to and from New Orleans by barge, where they would be loaded on ships or offloaded. Apart from port capacity elsewhere in the United States, there aren't enough trucks or rail cars to handle the long-distance hauling of these enormous quantities -- assuming for the moment that the economics could be managed, which they can't be.

The focus in the media has been on the oil industry in Louisiana and Mississippi. This is not a trivial question, but in a certain sense, it is dwarfed by the shipping issue. First, Louisiana is the source of about 15 percent of U.S.-produced petroleum, much of it from the Gulf. The local refineries are critical to American infrastructure. Were all of these facilities to be lost, the effect on the price of oil worldwide would be extraordinarily painful. If the river itself became unnavigable or if the ports are no longer functioning, however, the impact to the wider economy would be significantly more severe. In a sense, there is more flexibility in oil than in the physical transport of these other commodities.
<snip>

The oil fields, pipelines and ports required a skilled workforce in order to operate. That workforce requires homes. They require stores to buy food and other supplies. Hospitals and doctors. Schools for their children. In other words, in order to operate the facilities critical to the United States, you need a workforce to do it -- and that workforce is gone. Unlike in other disasters, that workforce cannot return to the region because they have no place to live. New Orleans is gone, and the metropolitan area surrounding New Orleans is either gone or so badly damaged that it will not be inhabitable for a long time.

more....

[Jamastiene]

41. ...and until it has been remodeled, the survivors should be allowed

to make little "mini New Orleans" ( like Chinatown, only New Orleanstowns instead ) all over the country. It would upgrade every community that could be graced with it's culture and it's music. Imagine that. I sure have been.

[Jamastiene]

40. There is no reason they can't backfill some to make it slightly higher in

the areas where it is below sea level and rebuilt the homes for the people who lived there. I have been thinking about all the money being raised. If they were to just give each survivor, based on need, enough to get by and put a portion in the bank until their homes are ready, they could be taken care of better. An endless supply of school suplies, water, and clothes followed by gradual re-abandonment is going to put a strain on this country like nothing we have ever seen before. The orgs should give them the money directly and let them make their new lives. It might give them a little healing. And this is coming from someone who has been homeless. It wouldn't be a handout. It's called charity.

[Coastie for Truth]

43. It is simple but expensive matter of engineering - beyond Halliburton

Maybe we whould hire some good engineers instead of Halliburton..





Look at that --
<>
and this--
<>
and this---
<>

On a cold winter night in 1953, the Netherlands suffered a terrifying blow as old dikes and seawalls gave way during a violent storm.

Flooding killed nearly 2,000 people and forced the evacuation of 70,000 others. Icy waters turned villages and farm districts into lakes dotted with dead cows.

Ultimately, the waters destroyed more than 4,000 buildings.

Afterward, the Dutch - realizing that the disaster could have been much worse, since half the country, including Amsterdam and Rotterdam, lies below sea level - vowed never again.

After all, as Tjalle de Haan, a Dutch public works official, put it in an interview last week, "Here, if something goes wrong, 10 million people can be threatened."

So at a cost of some $8 billion over a quarter century, the nation erected a futuristic system of coastal defenses that is admired around the world today as one of the best barriers against the sea's fury - one that could withstand the kind of storm that happens only once in 10,000 years.

The Dutch case is one of many in which low-lying cities and countries with long histories of flooding have turned science, technology and raw determination into ways of forestalling disaster.

London has built floodgates on the Thames River. Venice is doing the same on the Adriatic.

Japan is erecting superlevees. Even Bangladesh has built concrete shelters on stilts as emergency havens for flood victims.

Experts in the United States say the foreign projects are worth studying for inspiration about how to rebuild New Orleans once the deadly waters of Hurricane Katrina recede into history.

"They have something to teach us," said George Z. Voyiadjis, head of civil and environmental engineering at Louisiana State University. "We should capitalize on them for building the future here."

Don't abandon New Orleans --

ABANDON HALLIBURTON

"Coastie"

-Board Certified Professional Engineer (Pennsylvania)
-Chartered Professional Engineer (Saskatchewan)

[President Kerry]

46. great read - thanks for that! n/t

[Coastie for Truth]

49. What Will It Take To Safeguard New Orleans - NY Times Sept 11

<>

NEW ORLEANS has long lived with the hurricane protection that it, and the nation, were willing to pay for. Measured against the costs of Katrina's fury, however, better armor may suddenly seem more affordable.

With officials vowing to rebuild New Orleans, the question of how fully to defend the city against another catastrophe will be examined as never before.

Unlike San Francisco or Los Angeles, where there is no way to prevent widespread destruction from the most powerful earthquakes, New Orleans is uniquely dependent on one feature: its aging network of levees. If levees hold back the water, the city is spared. If they fail, much of the city is ruined.

"For people to feel confident about coming back again, they're going to have to rebuild the levee system," said Ivor van Heerden, deputy director of the Louisiana State University Hurricane Center. They must be taller and stronger, he said, built for the worst-case Category 5 storm. Existing levees were designed decades ago to withstand only a quickly receding Category 3.

The success of levees in a restored New Orleans will depend partly on the resilience of other civil engineering, and on wetlands between the city and the Gulf of Mexico. Today, the condition of these outer defenses is poor: Barrier islands and wetlands are disappearing, and gates to protect against storm surges and waves are years away.

---severely edited due to space imitations ---

A very good, layman's discussion of the role of surrounding wetlands, and Dutch style "defense in depth."

"Coastie"

Board Certified Professional Engineer (Pennsylvania)
Chartered Professional Engineer (Saskatchewan)

[newspeak]

53. our heritage

New Orleans is one of the 0ldest cities in the US. I've been to New Orleans, my niece lived in Metairie. The history, the culture, the music is all part of our heritage as citizens. New Orleans has faced disasters and hardships before-don't let it die.

[TankLV]

55. Well "they" don't get to choose, do "they"! It's only for people of New

Orleans to decide.

If not, then I've got some "decidin" to do with all those yahoos who insist on residing in tornadoe prone areas and those in mudslide areas and beach areas.

It's either all or nothing.

[DoYouEverWonder]

57. It's so easy to say they should do this or they should do that

has if it were up to us. Excuse me, last time I checked the city of New Orleans belonged to the people of New Orleans and it is up to the People of New Orleans to decide what to do with the place. We've got a million people who live there and most want to go home. It's not going to be possible to say oh just live somewhere else for a year or forever while we redesign your city.

Beside if people shouldn't live in NO because of hurricanes and floods, then everyone who lives along the coasts that we keep rebuilding should move, and all the people along the major rivers, and all the people in tornado alley... Can never be too safe you know and the repugs are sick of rebuilding their houses for them...

[GoddessOfGuinness]

58. What say the people of New Orleans?

To hell with everybody else...They don't live there!