Gay Catholics Kids Might Not Be Baptized in Canada (Me:How Petty & Cruel!)

[arwalden]

http://www.latimes.com/features/religion/la-fg-canada16jul16,1,4170385.story?coll=la-news-religion&ctrack=1&cset=true

Gay Catholics' Kids Might Not Be Baptized in Canada
Archbishop of Quebec testifies as the church continues to fight a same-sex marriage bill.

By Christopher Guly, Special to The Times


OTTAWA — With Canada's gay marriage bill just days away from becoming law, the country's top Catholic leader has warned that the church could refuse to baptize the children of same-sex parents.

"If I take the example of the ceremony of baptism, according to our canon law, we cannot accept the signatures of two fathers or two mothers as parents of an infant," Cardinal Marc Ouellet, the archbishop of Quebec and primate of the Canadian Catholic Church, told a Senate committee hearing held here on the pending legislation this week.

SNIP

The same-sex marriage legislation, passed last month by Canada's House of Commons, redefines civil marriage to be the "lawful union of two persons to the exclusion of all others," and not just between a man and a woman.

But the pending law allows religious officials to refuse to perform marriages "that are not in accordance with their religious beliefs."

On Monday, the committee will recommend that the Senate pass the same-sex marriage bill with no amendments. The legislation is expected to receive final passage in the upper chamber Tuesday or Wednesday. Canada would follow Belgium, the Netherlands and Spain in passing laws allowing gay and lesbian couples to wed.

SNIP .... continued....

[cap]

1. the church needs to get a grip

they should allow kids to get baptized regardless of who the parents are. They should allow at least the biological mother or father to sign the certificate.

[msongs]

2. child molesting ok, baptising innocent kids NO...how xian can u get? n/t

[donco6]

3. Good.

If that's what it takes for gay Catholics to leave that church, good. They'll be better off for it.

Would anyone complain if a bunch of gay Republicans left the party because of a similar slight? I think not. We'd all be rejoicing.

[DanCa]

4. Two tales

I have two tales about the Roman Catholic Church. They are not flames per se but I would like to share my story with you. Please dont read if your easily offended that is not my goal.

They wouldn't baptize my niece Destiny Marie in Wisconsin because her mom is a single parent. My mom finally found a parish out an Il that would do because she has hemophilia and she needs to be in a disciplined class room environment.

Okay thats my shout out to catholic schools they do know how to raise disciplined kids. And have been good to her ever since.

My case and anger with the RC church comes from when I was trying to become ordained to become a Deacon. This was during the Al Gore campaign just when the purge all the pro choice dems started. The schools pro life click wanted me to take pictures of woman entering clinics so that they can shame in them in newspapers and websites. I said no and I was so upset and appalled that I lost my voice and could not talk for three days. The neuro that I say traces my stroke back to that day.

I finally found a home in the Episcopal Church where I serve on the bishop's council to make sure stuff like this doesn't happen. But it' so hard because I cant manage to sit thru a mass to see my niece in a choir or in a play or be with my family at christmas.

Note I do not blame any catholics here for what transspired. I know you had nothing to do with it. What frustrates me is that for every good thing the church does it cant get past the big two stances of abortion and gay rights. Which is a shame because other than that I agree with it on so much more like helping the poor the death penality, the war, and the fact the late great pope john paul two called President Bush the Anti christ.

Any how I just want to say to everyone that all I know is that my god loves everyone regardless of thier stance on orientation, reproductive issues, and party affiliation. Peace everyone no more no less. :hugs:

[Kathy in Cambridge]

5. If the Catholic Church spent this much energy fighting the death penalty

it would be abolished by now, or at least many innocent folks on death row would have been exonerated.

Instead, the Church chooses to deny spiritual sustenance to gay children, tries to purge pro-choice Catholics from its ranks, and supports pedophile priests.

Talk about screwed up priorities.

[DanCa]

8. John Paul two, may he rest in peace, was against the war and hand guns

Why did the American Bishops attach themselves to the conservative movement is beyond me.

[SharonAnn]

29. Gary Will says they need to get over their "pelvic issues". Everything

focuses on the pelvis.

Sexuality, birth control, abortion, etc.

Born and raised Catholic, I thought we'd be way beyond this sh*t by now.

Just goes to show what happens when you leave misogynistic men in charge of things.

[xxqqqzme]

34. they're not gay children!

they R children who happen 2 have parents of the same sex.

[LibDemAlways]

6. There used to be a requirement that

a candidate for the priesthood could not have been born to an unwed mother. Don't know if this is still the case, though I tend to doubt it. Beggars can't be choosers.

The Catholic church has long been burdened with a boatload of bs rules that turn people off and get in the way of their professed mission of "loving and serving the Lord." Example. I have a friend who years ago was dating a Catholic guy and got in the habit of attending mass with him on Sunday. After careful consideration she decided she'd like to convert and made an appointment to speak with the priest at the parish where she attended mass. When he found out that she didn't live "within the parish" - an arbitrary geographic boundary - he told her he couldn't baptise her. She left and hasn't set foot in a church since.

To be fair there are priests who wouldn't give a rat's ass where a person lived or who a person's parents are. Unfortunately, guys like this Canadian Cardinal end up making all priests look bad. Considering how many gays there are in the priesthood, it stinks of hypocrisy as well.

[Smarmie Doofus]

7. On the bright side...

...it saves the kids the trouble of dumping the church when they get old enough to think for themselves.

BTW, the headline-writer should be shot: having two gay catholic parents makes one a "Gay Catholic Kid"?

Jebusmaryandjoseph.

[fasttense]

9. Hell, the Catholic church refused to baptize my beautiful daughter

because my husband was a Protestant and not a Catholic. Join the club gays and lesbians, we can all thank God we left the Catholic church before our children became targets of their pedophilia.

[cap]

22. that shouldnt have happened...

the church accepts mixed faith couples who want to baptize their kids as Catholics. Whoever did that to you was just wrong.

[Zorra]

10. The catholic church has a long, well documented history of cruelty.

So this is no big surprise.

The Inquisition:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inquisition

Witches

However, all witches were not burned at the stake. It seems various countries had their preferred forms of execution. Hanging was preferred in England and the American colonies. In France, Scotland and Germany it was the custom to first strangle the condemned witches, as an act of mercy, before sending them to the hanging stand or garroting, and then cremating them to ashes.

Many witches were burned alive, needless to say. It is alleged by church authorities that many who were burned had either recanted their confessions at the last moment or did not repent for their crimes. The burnings were executed by civil authorities because the church would have no part in the murdering of people. An elaborate accounting system connected with the burnings was established which included expenses for the trail and the prisoner's incarceration in jail. Some trial in Scotland show that the burning of a witch consumed 16 loads of peat plus wood and coal. This debt was attached to the condemned person's estate or relatives. If the debt was so large, more than the person's estate value, or more than one generation of relatives could pay off, then it was carried over to the next generation.
snip---
Witch lynchings and burnings continued infrequently into the late 19th century in England, Europe and Latin America. There are no reliable accounts as to the exact number of witches executed. Only estimates can be made. During the 150 year period of the Inquisition, in Germany where the most fierce witch hunts occurred, the minimum estimates range from 30,000 to 100,000.

http://www.themystica.com/mystica/articles/b/burning_times.html

Pope John Paul II apologizes to world for Catholic abuses. Ratzinger's amazing and creepy understatement: “Even men of the church, in the name of faith and morals, have sometimes used methods not in keeping with the Gospel in the solemn duty of defending the truth,” the cardinal said.

The pope said the church has had many saints, but some of its members have shown disobedience to God and inconsistency with the faith—in the past and present. “For the part that each of us, with his behavior, has had in these evils that have disfigured the face of the church, we humbly ask forgiveness,” he said.

Pronouncing the apology for Christian intolerance in the past was Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, which was created more than 450 years ago under a different name to conduct the Inquisition. “Even men of the church, in the name of faith and morals, have sometimes used methods not in keeping with the Gospel in the solemn duty of defending the truth,” the cardinal said.

Other Vatican officials expressed regret for actions by Christians that have aggravated ecumenical divisions, increased discrimination against minority and ethnic groups, “humiliated and marginalized” women, and shown contempt for local cultures and religious traditions.

The pope called for “genuine brotherhood” between Christians and Jews, praying to God that “we are deeply saddened by the behavior of those who in the course of history have caused these children of yours to suffer.” At the conclusion of the apology liturgy, the pope embraced and kissed the crucifix and, in a final blessing, declared that “never again” should such sins be committed.

http://www.americamagazine.org/catholicnews.cfm?articleTypeID=29&textID=2057&issueID=281

[Mari333]

13. No one expects the Spanish Inquisition!

(priests wear dresses..that says a lot.)

[arwalden]

20. ...What A Show!

[Zenlitened]

11. Maybe those kids could be sent away to the US for adoption by "good"

... Catholic families.

Oh, wait. That won't work. Nevermind.

Adoption firm: No Catholics

Catholicism "does not agree" with statement of faith, agency says

By Jean Gordon

A local Christian adoption agency that receives funds from the sale of Mississippi's Choose Life specialty car tags will not consider Catholics as adoptive parents.

"It has been our understanding that Catholicism does not agree with our Statement of Faith," wrote Bethany Christian Services director Karen Stewart in a July 8 letter to Sandy and Robert Stedman, a Catholic couple in Jackson seeking to adopt. "Our practice to not accept applications from Catholics was an effort to be good stewards of an adoptive applicant's time, money and emotional energy."

A private adoption agency, Bethany Christian Services has locations in 75 U.S. cities, including Jackson, Hattiesburg and Columbus.
The agency is one of 24 adoption and pregnancy counseling centers in the state that receives money from the sale of Choose Life car tags, which advocate against abortion.

Full story:
http://www.clarionledger.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050715/NEWS01/507150380/1002

What goes around, comes around, huh? Catholics hates th' gays, protestants hates th' catholics, fundies hates th' whole damn world and everyone in it who doesn't toe their line... and it just goes 'round and 'round and 'round. Happy little religious planet! See the pretty pious people? So precious, so very precioussssss. :eyes:

[madrchsod]

12. a church is a group of people

though diverse have a common interest in how and why they worship. if the "church" decides that "these people" do not "deserve the rights of their faith" then go elsewhere just as other people have gone thru history..luther and others got fed up with the churches they belonged to and started great churches...christ would be ashamed of those who refuse to give comfort in his name.
the catholic church leaders have always been corrupt and they always will be. they, as the jewish leaders before them,would nail the spikes into the saviors body....

[mtnester]

14. The sinners in this situation are CLEARLY identified

and it ain't the gay parents or their kids.

I am telling you, these people have to stand on the steps someday and recite the ENTIRE history of their lives on earth in front of people with stones in their hands. Punitive actions against innocent children probably REQUIRE a stoning at the gates.

[OldEurope]

15. Earnestly: are there many gay couples,

who want to be member of a church that doesn´t accept them?

Is it very difficult for a Roman Catholic to join an other Christian Community?
For Edit: Except that you have to deal with your sins alone

[TankLV]

16. Stop all this "catholic bashing"! There. I said it before "they" did!

sarcasm off

[onager]

17. Dammit! You beat me to it!

:hi:

[sonicx]

24. trust me, "they" will still say it...

any time now...

[July_July]

25. i'll say it

can we please stop ragging on my religion?

I've read DU for a long time, I understand we're all homophobic bigots, you really don't need to say it any more. Thanks.

[sonicx]

28. "I understand we're all homophobic bigots"

strawman.

[July_July]

30. huh?

all i'm saying is, we're never going to win back anything with this kind of crap.
It's no different from the things the fundies say, except they threaten catholics with hell while DU'ers threaten us with witty barbs about how we're all pedophiles.

[Skittles]

47. define "WE"

please

and I don't think you're all "homophic bigots" - but you certainly put up with homphobic bigots

[arwalden]

36. Oh Good Grief! -- That's Untrue. And It's Unfair...

<< I've read DU for a long time, I understand we're all homophobic bigots, you really don't need to say it any more. Thanks. >>

Nobody is saying that about "all" Catholics. :eyes:

[Zenlitened]

41. I guess that's your choice, whether to be a bigot or not.

Are you?

:shrug:

[TankLV]

44. That didn't take long, now did it!

Thanks for playing!

You'll get your repuke crying towel signed by w in the mail in a couple days!

You really are something, ya know?!

[HockeyMom]

18. My Godmother, who is also my Aunt, was a Lesbian

She didn't come out until the 1960s, about 20 years after I was born. The whole family knew about it though. My Mom certainly did. She told me about Aunt Josie when I was around 7 or 8. Apparently, it did not affect Mom's choice of a Godmother for me.

I am starting to think people, and the Church, might have been more tolerant years ago than they are now.

[merh]

19. Folks have to understand, that is how the Catholic Church has

been for years. According to the Catholic church, unwed couples are living in sin and it is perceived that they cannot reer their children as true Catholics if they are not practicing the faith (religion). That goes for people that were married outside of the church, as that union is not considered "blessed" and proper by the Catholic church, the "tenets" of the Catholic church is that their children cannot be baptized either.

There have been priests for centuries that see beyond the tenets of the religion and have true faith. Said priests baptize the "unbaptizable" and marry the "unmarriageable" because they truly believe and live the messages of Christ. They love and share the sacrifices with those that are "not worthy" because they know the sacrifices are meant to bring us closer to God and not separate us from God.

We have to keep in mind that there is a huge difference between "faith" and "religion".

~~recovering catholic~~

[anotherdrew]

21. there aren't any gay Catholic kids

a child can't choose a religion 'til the age of majority, parentally forced conversion should end.

[Massachusetts]

23. "Gay Catholics Kids Might Not Be Baptized in Canada "

Duhhh!!!, didn't you know Jesus was a PRICK! So whats the problem? (SARCASM)

THIS IS JUST THE SAME OLD, SAME OLD. OLD, WHITE HORNY MEN CALLING THE JESUS GAME, ( and I was brought up Catholic). I'm just SICK of the hypocritical BULL SHIT!!!!! (IMO)

I don't care if I offend those Catholics who choose to stay "lock step" with the church. WAKE UP!!!!!!!

[assclown_bush]

26. Can one be "un-baptized"???

As a recovering catholic, and one who was baptized as a baby, I am wondering if there is a ritual that one can undergo to be "un-baptized"? I resent my parent's attempt at drowning me in a baptismal font. If anyone knows of any "un-baptizing" rite please let me know. If I have to click my heels three time while wearing ruby slippers, I have the ruby slippers handy.

:puke:CATHOLIC CHURCH

ASSCLOWNBUSH

[arwalden]

37. Isn't That What Excommunication Is All About?

[assclown_bush]

40. Things that make you go UHHHMMM!!!???

By Joe I believe you got it. Thanx for that awalden...I know I won't have much trouble getting myself excommunicated.

[Lisa]

27. and yet, the church up here has been complaining ...

... about declining attendance, and the decreasing number of baptisms in recent decades (especially in Quebec).

(sigh)

[geek tragedy]

31. Jesus would be ashamed of these Pharisees. eom

[AlwaysQuestion]

32. What's all the fuss?

sorry, but I just don't get it. Apparently it is the Catholic Church's position that kids of lesbian and gay couples can't be baptized Catholic. If you disagree with their stance on this, why would you want to have your youngsters baptized as a Catholic? It just doesn't make any sense to me.

It is precisely this type of dogma found in most organized religions that made me conclude to hell with them all. Nor did I find any good reason to try and fight the system from within. Whatever was my take on it. And so it is that I brought my children that they should do their damndest always to use the Golden Rule as their yardstick. They thank me to this day, and although they have dabbled in a few religions on their own, they've concluded not to pursue religion for themselves or for their children. Anyway, it worked for us.

[Voltaire99]

43. Can't get worked up about it, either.

This is quite different to ped priests and birth control opposition. That's the Catholic Church harming society.

But if they don't want you as a member, they're fully in their right. It's an ancient, deeply conservative church run by celibate men who think sex is all about insemination (except in their savior's case, where the lack of insemination is what it's all about, heh).

Look elsewhere; there are loving churches, after all.

[Taylor Mason Powell]

45. I agree.

I'm gay, and I can't get worked up about this. To me, it's a freedom of religion issue. Churches should have the right to set whatever cockamamie rules they see fit. People who object should seek out a more welcoming and evolved faith community. Hopefully the more retrograde churches will eventually find their pews empty. (Although I recognize that's going to take a while, in the case of the Catholic Church!)

[Hoping4Change]

33. I think it is bordering on deranged for a gay

couple to want to baptize a child in the Catholic Church. Find a more accepting church.

[BattyDem]

35. As I've said before ... ultimately, the only thing the Catholic church

will succeed in doing is destroying itself. This type of action blames children for the "sins" of their parents - and even heterosexual parents will recognize how wrong that is. Think about it ... the child of two murderers can be baptized Catholic, but the child of two homosexuals can't. :eyes:

It's only a matter of time before Catholics who oppose bigotry will realize that they don't need the Catholic church to worship God and practice Christianity. There are plenty of alternatives.

On edit: By the way, I was raised Catholic and I know the church has always opposed certain things. However, I don't ever recall being asked if I was a virgin, if I practiced birth control, if I was pro-choice, if I was heterosexual (when I served as Godmother for my niece) or who I voted for - yet these days, the church is becoming increasingly "nosy" about people's actions and beliefs. It's as if they're saying, "Do as we say or else!" I don't EVER remember politicians being denied Communion or threatened with excommunication based on what issues they supported. I don't ever remember parish members being told they couldn't receive Communion or be part of the church if they supported gay rights. This behavior is new; it started when the fundies took over the country.

[daleo]

38. Suffer not unto the little children

Or something like that. Once more, the church doesn't really care what Jesus said.

[NashVegas]

39. Great! I Hope They Do It

Best thing that ever happened to opponents of the church was when Henry VIII got excommunicated.

[Peace Patriot]

42. The Catholic Church also teaches that unbaptized babies cannot go to

Heaven; so, this Catholic bureaucrat, Cardinal Marc Ouellet, is, in effect, condemning babies and children to external exclusion from the presence of God, because they disapprove of the people who chose to love and nourish these children.

What an abomination! Is THIS what Jesus taught, Cardinal Ouellet?! To exclude children from the presence of God forever, because YOU, in your God-faking omnipotence, consider their PARENTS to be sinners?!

This sin of the Church (arrogance! egotism!) goes WAY BACK to the 6th and 7th centuries A.D., when the Church was consolidating its wealth and power by forced baptisms--baptisms by the sword--among the unconsenting, pagan tribes of Europe. That's when all this fetishism began. Ouellet should be in sackcloth and ashes over the crimes committed in the name of gentle Jesus! The power games! The political games! The greed! The promotion of pogroms and witch-burnings. The instigation of bigotry ! It is outrageous! Not to mention the utter hypocrisy of Church tolerance for anointed child abusers, while they sanctimoniously preach against CONSENTING ADULT gays! Clean your own house, Oullet!

And three cheers for Canada, I say! They, Belgium, the Netherlands and Spain appear to understand the Gospels far better than the power-hungry Pharisees of Rome!

[ninkasi]

46. These days, it seems that every organized institution

from religion to government, seems to be on a hateful crusade to demonize and deny rights to gays. I am heterosexual, and I truly believe that my sexual orientation is something I was born with. The same goes for gays...what child spends time wondering whether to be gay or straight?

All humans are born as they are meant to be. To deny people basic human rights and dignity based on a trait they were born with is not only cruel, but incredibly stupid. There is, to me, no difference between discriminating against people on the basis of race, or sexual identity, and both forms of prejudice are wrong.

Even if I believed that people can make a choice, choosing to be either gay or straight, that still would make no difference as far as their rights are concerned. In this case, the Catholic church is willing to deny the rite of baptism to innocent children, merely because of what they perceive to be sin committed by the children's parents.

How cruel, and truly spiteful, that a church which purports to teach about God's love, and Christ's death to save us from our sins, would be so filled with hate against a segment of the population, that they have no trouble passing judgment on innocent children.

I am not Catholic, so all I can do is give my opinion based on what the church does, and says. For them, or any other church or group of people, to emotionally abuse other people this way is sickening.

If they were not so cruel and hateful, I would pity them for losing out on friendships with people who are, after all, just other human beings. Speaking for myself, one of my dearest friends in the world is gay, and he is worth more than all of his haters put together. He is loving, and sweet, and thoughtful, and would do anything he could for a friend. So...nobody can tell me that he is a threat to society, or deserving of anything less than the respect he is entitled to based on his actions, and who he is.