Daily Mirror: Was it Suicide? (London bombings)

[cire4]

Why did they buy return train tickets to Luton? Why did they buy pay & display tickets for cars? Why were there no usual shouts of 'Allah Akhbar'? Why were bombs in bags and not on their bodies?

THE London bombers may have been duped into killing themselves so their secrets stayed hidden.

Police and MI5 are probing if the four men were told by their al-Qaeda controller they had time to escape after setting off timers. Instead, the devices exploded immediately.

<snip>

"We think it's possible they were told that when they pressed buttons to set off timers they'd have a short time to abandon the bombs and get away before the blast. Instead, the bombs exploded immediately."

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/tm_objectid=15742951%26method=full%26siteid=94762%26headline=was%2dit%2dsuicide%2d%2d-name_page.html

[Anarcho-Socialist]

1. It's worth considering

but there's a lot of theories flying around at the moment. I'll just sit tight and wait-and-see.

[Roland99]

3. Agreed...maybe they didn't want to draw attention to themselves

Four men of apparent Arabic descent buying one-way tickets?

[Puzzler]

32. One-way tickets...

... for a plane ride could possibly arouse suspicion, I agree. But, certainly not on a 50-100 mile intercity rail journey. A one-way rail tickets like these are common.


-P

[imenja]

2. this theory had occurred to me

in part because the explosion emanated from the feet area of the bombers, indicating they had laid the packs down.

[muriel_volestrangler]

4. While the questions are valid, on a crowded tube train

you often have to take off a backpack just to be able to fit. Taking a pack off would be a normal thing to do (even if it's not crowded, you might do it to take the weight off your back, or so that you don't hit people with it when you turn round).

[imenja]

5. right

I don't think it's the most likely explanation, but the thought crossed my mind. I suppose it's just difficult for us to imagine Europeans wanting to blow themselves up.

[LondonAmerican]

10. No europeans

blew themselves up that day.

[muriel_volestrangler]

15. If you're born in Britain, you're European (n/t)

[Igel]

24. English has gotten goofy: there's ethnicity, there's nationality,

there's citizenship, and there's where you reside. Frequently the same words are used for all of them, and some minimum level of good will and civility are required for discourse. Otherwise polysemy is untenable, meaning that natural language is untenable.

The kids were Pakistani, possibly English, British, and English (British, European), in the order I listed the traits above. I say "possibly English" because "nationality" seems to have a couple of different meanings--whether it's the political nation you hold citizenship with, or the natio into which you are natus 'born', and how you interpret it.

[muriel_volestrangler]

31. True, and the USA has long had the subtleties of the words

how do you describe the members of an immigrant family - Italian, Italian-American, American etc. ?

The England 2001 Census asked the question "What is your ethnic group?" and had the options

• White
  
  
  
  • British
    
  • Irish
    
  • Other
    
  
  
• Mixed
  
  
  
  • White and Black Caribbean
    
  • White and Black African
    
  • White and Asian
    
  • Other
    
  
  
• Asian or Asian British
  
  
  
  • Indian
    
  • Pakistani
    
  • Bangladeshi
    
  • Other
    
  
  
• Black or Black British
  
  
  
  • Caribbean
    
  • African
    
  • Other
    
  
  
• Chinese
  
• Other
  

so even there, assuming they did a bit of research on the group names before asking them, some would say 'Asian' where others would say 'Asian British' (and in the UK, 'Asian' as an ethnic group normally means 'South Asian', rather than the whole continent).

[LondonAmerican]

42. In the UK

they could be considered British. English, like Scots, Welsh or Pakistani is an ethnic identity, not a political one.

[Hoping4Change]

38. The question is if identified themselves as Islamists or Eurpoeans/Brit.

Most Islamists reject any identity other than their religiouis identity. So it indeed could be said no Europea/Brit blew themselves up.

[LondonAmerican]

43. Bingo nt.

[LondonAmerican]

41. These guys did not consider themselves "europeans"

they considered themselves muslims first and foremost. As one of their friends said, nationshoodf is not about football teams or where you are born but about what you believe. nobody should be surprised that they killed people whom they thought they had nothing in common with.

[Henny Penny]

62. How do we know what they considered themsleves to be? n/t

[Cha]

52. I thought he meant..

they didn't know they were being suicided. Maybe not.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

21. What is your criteria for determining one's nationality? If one is born in

Europe, that should make one a European. MKJ

[imenja]

25. Brits don't think of themselves as European

my mistake

[LivingInTheBubble]

30. Some do

I do since the UK is in europe geographically.

[LondonAmerican]

45. None of my friends here do

they consider themselves English (or British) but not European. And the reason is simple: they have more culturally in common with Americans, Aussies, New Zealanders and Canadians than they do with Luxembourgers, French or Belorussians.

Nationality isn't determined by geographical abstractions, but by culture and history.

[muriel_volestrangler]

48. I consider myself European

But you're now specifying a nationality. 'European' isn't a nationality, but it is a grouping, which, if you say "Europeans think ..." I think of myself as being in that group.

[LondonAmerican]

54. Well I honestly don't know what you mean

or why the word 'European' should have any real meaning if you insist on including people in it who do not consider themselves as such.

And certainly muslims who consider their primary loyalty to be toward their 'ummah' and not where they are born and raised should hardly count as Europeans either unless the word has a purely trivial meaning.

I think the Bristish attitude toward the abstraction known as 'Europe' is shared pretty well across the continent: witness the resounding NO to the so-called constitutoion in the Netherlands and France and the polls showing it would fail in a vote almost anywhere outside of Luxembourg...

[muriel_volestrangler]

60. There's a world of difference between rejecting that constitutional treaty

thinking you're not European. For one thing, Europe is more than the European Union. For another, the people who rejected the constitution don't, on the whole, want to withdraw from the EU - they just didn't like the proposed constitution (for instance, many of the French left thought it too market-driven, economcially).

I don't know why you have difficulty with someone being European as well as their nationality. If someone says they're a Yorkshireman and a Englishman, there's no problem. I don't think it's a trivial meaning.

The people who blew themselves up were brought up as Europeans. They played soccer and cricket here, wanted to play for their county, and worked in a fish and chip shop; went to a university in Leeds; worked in a school, and toured the Houses of Parliament with them. They may have withdrawn their allegiance to their country, but that doesn't stop them being British - it just makes them traitors.

[DemExpat]

67. Yep, I voted against the EU Constitution in this form, but feel very much

a European..........American Ex-pat!

DemEx

[Henny Penny]

64. Its good to see you hanging out with progressives online...

even if you can't seem to manage it in the real world! :-)

[Lisa]

37. I was just picturing ...

... a very polite terrorist apologizing because he'd accidentally whacked someone with his bomb-laden backpack. (I hope it doesn't sound like I'm making light of the situation ... but as a transit rider myself, I couldn't help smiling when I read your post, Muriel!) Here in North America, elbowing your way onboard with bulky luggage and ignoring the complaints (as I've frequently seen people do) would actually help them fit in better.

[screembloodymurder]

6. It's obvious that they didn't intend to die.

What proof do they have that these guys intended to blow themselves up? Were there timers or not? Seems like a simple question. You don't go to the trouble of putting a timer on a bomb just to hear it tick.

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[stickdog]

14. Put down your assumptions.

I've yet to read or hear ANYTHING that even remotely persuades me that ANY of the supposed supects had anything to do with this tragedy.

[goforit]

46. Yes I agree!!!

I heard an interview by the BBC that a former British intellegence
officer said that they were having a war-game at the exact same time and place that these bombings took place.
The DU chose to delete the interview.....of which I do not know why.

[Henny Penny]

63. do you have a link for that, goforit? n/t

[Frederik]

23. Mass murder and suicide

Those are two different things. Put down the crack pipe.

[daleo]

59. The latest BBC report says no timers, but who knows what to believe?

"Police sources have told the BBC they had not recovered any timing devices from the bomb scenes, possibly indicating that detonation was by hand"

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4676861.stm

[sunwyn]

7. They biught return tickets

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/tm_objectid=15742951%26method=full%26siteid=94762%26headline=was%2dit%2dsuicide%2d%2d-name_page.html

[barbaraann]

18. Welcome to DU, sunwyn!

:hi: :applause: :hi:

:patriot:

[ROH]

8. "WAS IT SUICIDE?" ... Were they told it was an exercise?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=125&topic_id=47182&mesg_id=47777

[Algorem]

9. Wouldn't this hurt "al-Qaeda" recruitment when it gets out?

Blowing up delivery boys not very ethical.

[Henny Penny]

65. you are assuming it was an al qaeda operation n/t

[Gay Green]

73. Probably "Al-CIAda" out to kill two birds with one stone

Islamic militant extremist recruitment

and

Brit reluctance in fighting the so-called "Woh uhn Terra" alongside Bush

[Paradise]

12. this makes more sense, and they would have lived to kill, another day.

furthermore, if the bombs were to be detonated by cell phones, others could have set them off, remotely, at a time of their choice.

[Tai-chi]

13. Some deception going on

Just read this, follow the links...and get educated.

http://www.propagandamatrix.com/articles/july2005/090705bombingexercises.htm

[Cha]

53. God!

Thanks for the link.

[bennywhale]

16. My girlfriend and i thought exactly the same thing last Friday. If they

all went off similtaneously then someone other than the four could have activated them to kill them as well as everyone else. The Tavistock bus bomb ended that theory but this is interesting.

[DemExpat]

17. I even want to believe that they didn't know they had bombs on them...

it just boggles my mind to think of these seemingly very nice young men wanting to do this inhuman deed.

:cry:

DemEx

[imenja]

27. they knew they had bombs

no question about it. Their apartment and car was full of them. You can't carry that much explosive and not know it's going to blow up. The
question here is did they intend to blow themselves up.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

56. How convenient that their apartment and car had bomb materials....

...found in them. How convenient that they belong to a religious group that has been demonized over the last several years by the so-called Coalition. Good thing they were riding in the vehicles that exploded, otherwise the Brits would have no one to blame.

Sounds almost exactly like the undamaged and unburnt passport of one of the alleged hijackers found at the WTC. And the rental car filled with flight manuals. Nevermind that the FBI never found a paper trail from the hijackers to Al Qaeda/Osama. Nevermind that the two airfields in Florida were owned by Germans who had come to America and bought the airfields at basically the same time. Nevermind that one of the owners has ties to the CIA. Nevermind that five of the hijackers attended U. S. military schools.

Just ignore all of those other uncomfortable facts.

[imenja]

69. Now I see the problem

Bush blew up the WTC, the london underground, madrid trains, Bali hotel, and the rest of the terrorist targets around the world.

Such theories are very comforting. It's easier to believe a few malevolent individuals are responsible for deadly acts than to consider the far more nebulous and complex factors that give rise to international terrorism.

[Algorem]

19. Why do I wonder if their "Al Qaeda controller" 's name is something like

'Thurston'or 'Bob'?

[lateo]

20. What about the one bomber that told the woman...

"we are all going to die."

Remember that? One of the survivors of the blast said she heard one of the bombers say that.

[muriel_volestrangler]

22. I can find that said by a survivor

Preston, who was evacuated at the station, told CNN she heard an enormous bang on the train next to the one she was travelling on.

"The whole thing just shook. Our carriage filled with smoke and I thought, 'My God, this is it. We're all going to die.'"

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1120738818266_116148018

But not by a bomber. Can you remember where you saw this? Was it on the bus or in a train?

[Igel]

26. It's a possibility.

But it also raises the question of just what they thought they were doing?

"Here, Joe, I have these backpacks. We're all going to go to London and ride on the tubes for a while. I want you to carry one around, but be sure not to look inside."

"Gee! Backpacking on a tube line! What a fun way to spend the day!"

The planning scenario is just as entertaining. It runs like the first one, with an added line:

"Here, Joe, we're planning for an operation. We're all going to go to London and ride on the tubes for a while. I want you to carry one around, but be sure not to look inside."

Maybe they were deceived; maybe they weren't. It's also possible somebody mis-set the timers, or mis-stated when they were set for.

The first scenario implies that the bombers had a collective level of curiosity easily surpassed by an especially dull radish; I find that difficult to accept. The second that it was the *suicide* part that they were clueless about; that point I don't particularly care about.

I don't like the idea of people blowing themselves up, either. But I also don't like the idea of them knowing they'd be blowing up others--if they're going to do that, I'd just as soon they take themselves along for the ride, wittingly or otherwise.

[MissWaverly]

40. I don't know but I do remember about the 9-11 bombers

supposedly being linked to drug dealing in the weeks before 9-11, could these individuals have thought
that they were transporting drugs to others?

[Igel]

72. There's a thought.

But in a backpack ...? :yoiks:

[MissWaverly]

74. I know it sounds improbable but

they were all young guys, they could have just slipped it off, set it
down and struck up a conversation with someone, meanwhile person x comes
along and picks it up, who would notice, and if someone did, they could
say, I just borrowed it from my buddy, I got conned into carrying someone's backpack onto an airline in the days of my youth, and it weighed a ton and was not searched.

[Henny Penny]

68. more like ....

Hi Joe,

remember your friend Fred? the one that died in a car crash last week???

Well that was no accident... Your dad drives a ford escort... very similar to Fred's... very similar...

Do us a favour... there's a good boy... don't worry, you won't get hurt...

[sleipnir]

28. This is what I've been saying all along.

The whole plot of suicide bombers just doesn't make any sense.

Nothing adds up, that's the problem, nothing.

This is one bizarre case. And the guy on the bus? He's the most odd of all. I've got a Hollywood movie style theory, but due to the crackdown on supposed "CT" and speculation, it would probably get deleted.

[Frederik]

29. MSNBC: 3 of the bombers had American connections

"LONDON - Western intelligence sources tell NBC News that three of the suspects in the London bombing plot, including one of the suspected bombers, have U.S. connections. These sources also say authorities are now back to believing that the explosive material was homemade — similar to that found in the shoe of the “shoe bomber” Richard Reid.

Police sources say an apartment in a Leeds building served as the bomb making factory and that the suspected bomb maker is Egyptian born biochemist Magdy el-Nashar, who may have made the explosives in the bathtub.

“This has been and still is a fast moving investigation, with new leads emerging, literally, by the hour,” says Peter Clarke, of Scotland Yard's Anti-Terrorist Branch."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8574827/

[donsu]

33. I still think the CIA had a hand in it - psy-ops

nt

[Ezlivin]

34. They were part of the drill?

Since a drill was taking place that mirrored these circumstances, is it beyond the pale to suggest that these "bombers" were willing participants in what they thought was simply a drill?

One insider could have put real explosives with real timers in their backpacks and sent them on their way, each of them believing they were only portraying terrorists in a drill, not a real event.

No large conspiracy is needed. Just one insider. The drill put all the "assets" into proper position.

[bassman79]

35. need more info on the drill

Some are now arguing that the drill was only a "tabletop" drill in a board meeting where a bunch of junior executive types get to pretend a crisis has happened and practice running through emergency procedures. This could be a company totally unrelated to the London Underground or any other company related to the blasts.
When Power says the drill became real and the participants went in to real crisis management, he may mean simply for their own unrelated company, you know, telling everyone to go home, safely turning off computers, sercuring things, etc...

Or it could have been a bigger exercise involving related groups, such as the police, medical personel, tube personell, and gov't officials. If it was this type of drill, it's a pretty daming peice of evidence implicating the gov't in the attack. giving weight to this is that Power does say that the exercise he was conducting was part of a "larger exercise" going on.

Just need more info about the drills before we can tell if this is a smoking gun or a freakish unrelated occurence...

[goforit]

50. Quite frankly.....will we ever get that info? If only people would demand

an inquiry of both London and the WTC....I sure their will be an immence amount of evidence.

As a tinfoil hatter......my opinion is already formed.

[MADem]

36. They likely believed that the timers were set so they'd go off

...precisely at 9-11.

Seeing as the bulk of them went off at 8:51, they may have been murderous, unknowing, sacrificial lambs. Well, they are dead bastards now, in any event.

If they KNEW they were going to toast, they wouldn't have carried ID on them. Why make it easy on the investigators?? Who knows, maybe they were told to move back a few cars, and go out with the other distressed victims in innocent fashion--a perfect cover, with all the confusion.

They got suckered, I suspect. If this is the case, and it comes out that they were used, it might make recruiting a bit more difficult. I happen to like public transport, and they are screwing it up for everyone, the bums.

[Hoping4Change]

39. A survivor said he was watching one of the bombers because

of his behaviour which the survivor says was very annoying. The bomber it seems was in a very agitated state and that agitation was irritating to witness.

[MattSWin]

44. ....

I think all that matters is that these guys knew they were going to kill other people. So who really cares if they were lied to and died as a result.

[nolabels]

55. The answer is the sacrifice

When, why and how they were coerced to do it willingly or if they were unwitting pawns makes a big difference in stemming the tide for the recruiting of such people

The same type of force is acting to create low rates of enlistment in the US military. The amount of debt you pay (including ones possible loss of life) is higher than the benefit that can be received. There is little honor in a unjust war for plunder or power.

[Tai-chi]

47. Why is a CIA activist in charge of London Transport Network?

London Bombings - Web of Deceit: Peter Power, The Terror Drill, Giuliani and The CIA

Steve Watson | July 16 2005

http://propagandamatrix.com/Pages/Jul05/160705web_of_deceit.html

[muriel_volestrangler]

49. 'activist'?

What, so you think he goes on pro-CIA marches? :rofl:

[EchoV]

58. Curious

Why is it so much easier for you to believe the government of England killed its own citizens rather than that some crazed extremists were responsible? I know, I know, to justify the war. Ok, that answer doesn't work for me. I'm a glass half full person myself... Conspiracies are not logical. It takes too many people to make a conspiracy. Somebody would talk.

[Chicago Democrat]

51. So interesting to have a real investigation

hurrah for the Brits

[Media_Lies_Daily]

57. Yeah...they would never resort to lying like the U. S. NeoCon Junta....

...oh, wait...they lied about Iraq, too.

[MattSWin]

70. .....

"They're coming to take me away".

So, the police, Tony Blair, the CIA, the FBI, etc. are all in on this big conspiracy to bomb London transportation....

[CJCRANE]

75. It doesn't have to involve

any of those people to be a conspiracy different to what it appears to be on the surface.

[bklyncowgirl]

61. Interesting theory

The purchasing of round trip tickets certainly indicates that these young men may not have fully understood their role in the plot and the story of the bomber who became agitated before blowing up the bus and was rummaging through his backpack with an alarmed expression on his face may indicate that he either had second thoughts or had just realized that he was about to become a martyr for Islam.

I remember hearing that possibility about some of the 9/11 hijackers also. It may be just a way for westerners to come to terms with the idea that jihadists are willing to sacrifice themselves for a cause or it may be true.

[muriel_volestrangler]

66. Here's one hypothesis

which has no evidence, but it's a thought:

When buying a rail ticket into London at a station in the southeast of England, I know you can combine a ticket to travel in Zone 1 (the central bit of London, where all the explosions took place) on tubes and buses with it. I've done that myself with a return ticket - but I'm not sure if you could do it with a single ticket (can anyone who travels into London occasionally confirm or deny this?), especially from a ticket machine, as opposed to the ticket office.

They may have purchased return tickets that included Zone 1 travel, rather than taking the chance of queues, etc having to buy tickets in London; and they may have done it so that they could buy the tickets from a machine (which has buttons for the 'usual' combinations of tickets from that station), rather haev the chance of drawing attention to themselves, however slight, at the ticket office.

Remember, a suicide bomber isn't going to worry about saving a few quid. If it's in his pocket, it's either literally going to go up in smoke, or get scattered. The chances of getting it returned to you next of kin are nil.

[WinkyDink]

71. Jeezowhiz

Now I feel sorry for them.
Except not.