Another man's semen reportedly found on Kobe Bryant's accuser

[dutchdemocrat]

This is disgusting. Rape is rape. The nasty tricks by the defense are positively sickening and offensive to all women.

-------------------

Another man's semen reportedly found on Bryant's accuser
BY GREG GITTRICH AND CORKY SIEMASZKO
New York Daily News

NEW YORK - (KRT) - Kobe Bryant's defense team believes it has proof that the woman who accused him of rape had sex with at least one other man shortly before the alleged attack, the New York Daily News learned on Friday.

The revelation came a day after Bryant's lead defense lawyer, Pamela Mackey, caused an uproar at a court hearing by asking whether the woman's vaginal tearing was the result of "sex with three different men in three days."

Retired Eagle County District Court Judge William Jones said Mackey asked the question because she has physical evidence suggesting the tearing could have happened during an earlier sexual encounter.

"There was more than one man's semen found in her panties," Jones said. "That's what's behind all of this."

Jones said he learned of this from Mackey's co-counsel, Hal Haddon.


SNIP

http://www.bayarea.com/mld/mercurynews/sports/6985883.htm

[La_Serpiente]

1. This trial is going to sicken me

On CNN, they were talking about Vaginal fluids, guys, and tears and rips....I'm not even going to follow this case. It's just so terrible. I reccommend to turn it off it it's on the TV and there are children in the room. It gets ugly.

[liberalnurse]

2. The big difference is this....

She may of indeed had consentual sex with someone...That is normal human behavior....

How did she know she was going to be raped within the next few hours? .... It does not matter!

Thats like saying someone drove a friends car one day and was hit by a drunk driver the next afternoon....Does it matter she drove her friends car the day before? No....

[AP]

3. It's supposed to maker her seem loose and therefore not worthy of justice

it's really nasty shit.

This is going to be another case where the person with money is going to get off because of the money advantage.

It's kind of like the recall. If you have a ton of money you can buy public opinion.

It's sad that the government doesn't have the same resources to stand up to this shit that the super-wealthy have to perpetrate this shit. But that's the story of modern America.

[Julien Sorel]

4. It's supposed to make an argument about reasonable doubt.

If Bryant wasn't the only one with her, who's to say he was the one who was responsible for the physical evidence? The physical evidence and her word are the only things that make this case hold up; vitiate the evidence, and it becomes a question of her word against his, which does not overcome the reasonable doubt barrier. Any attorney who didn't try this tack would be grossly incompetent.

[AP]

10. Yeah, she just got raped, so she went and had sex with Kobe?

Isn't the point that she was injured? Why would she go and have sex again?

And previous consensual sex isn't very relevant because there's no real doubt about Kobe's identity -- he admits having sex with her. If there was some question about the identity, previous consensual sex might be relevant.

OK, anything can happen. But 99.9999% of the time, this kind of evidence is meant to make the victim look loose, so the regret factor is lowered for not giving a conviction.

A motion regarding this evidence should not have been made in open court, I’m guessing. It spoils the jury with a claim of evidence that is probably not admissible, and the defense knows the press is going to blow this out of proportion. Because the evidence isn’t admissible for the defendant, the claim will never be proved false. It will always linger in jurors’ minds.

[Noordam]

23. How do you know she got raped

there is getting to be less and less of that "proof" out there.

I have always thought this was a $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ thing.

[kysrsoze]

45. Agreed - None of us know if she was raped

I think rape is a sadistic, vile crime and men who do it should be castrated. However, if the things that are being brought up here are true, that truly does bring about reasonable doubt. I would say sex with 4 men in a short period of time has as much chance of causing a vaginal tear as being raped.

Let's not forget that this woman also bragged about the size of "little Kobe" to people at a party the following night. That story has NOT been discounted. There were multiple people who heard it.

I believe OJ killed his wife and her boyfriend. I believe Tyson raped his victim. I fully believe Scott Peterson murdered Laci. But I have my doubts about this one. I can't see Kobe willing to risk it like this when he has a wife, his past doesn't predict this crime, and he's got so much money that if he's horny, he can just have someone arrange for an escort, or two, or three, or a donkey.

[0007]

29. Exactly!

This is what Hal Haddon did in the JonBenet Ramsey murder case.

Now its quite obvious why they wanted an early hearing.

Planting seeds of doubt like the defense team did the other day in Colorado is absolutely sickening.

[TryingToWarnYou]

69. Hmmm, well, innocent until proven guilty used to be

the standard by which we judged those charged with criminal offenses. Now, we don't need trials?

[DemBones DemBones]

5. We need to write CNN and tell them we won't be watching them

in their attempts to trash this woman. This is yellow journalism at its worst.

I saw the same report you did on CNN and thought it was disgusting. They have no shame in exploiting stories.

[Scairp]

8. That's nothing

Apparently, you all are not watching Court TV. Those people are at the top of the heap in exploiting these high-profile cases. And yeah, he did it and he should pay just like anyone else.

[Democat]

6. Kobe Bryant is innocent until proven guilty

"Rape is rape" but at this point "rape" is just an accusation.

You think it's ok for her to make an accusation of rape, but not for Kobe to defend himself?

For all any of us know, he might not have done anything wrong other than cheat on his wife.

[Cheswick2.0]

18. yes of course he can defend himself

but his lawyer is breaking the law to do so. Those laws were passed for a reason. I suppose you would like to go back to the good old days when rapists were never convicted unless there was a reliable (read anyone but the "lying" woman herself)witness?

[Noordam]

24. If she had sex with anybody then that person could have been

the person that left the marks.

DUHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

[Booberdawg]

7. Defense attorneys are allowed to lie. That's what is so disgusting

She has to prove this. Really all she is doing is trying to taint public opinion, and as we have seen there are plenty of people out there who wouldn't be satisfied of Kobe's guilt if there were a video of the incident taking place.

This case is absolutely disgusting. By all accounts this woman was brutally raped, battered and bloodied, and had the tears, the bruises and the marks to show for it. It's disgraceful the lengths some people are willing to go to in order to discount her experience in order to protect their idol.

[Julien Sorel]

9. By all accounts?

Whose accounts? Hers. No one else was there. I'll believe she was raped when I see more evidence.

[Cheswick2.0]

17. your belief that women routinely lie about rape is duly noted

Thanks for sharing.

PS....What "more" evidence are you talking about? You haven't seen any evidence to date, since you are not in the courtroom.

[Dogmudgeon]

22. Your belief that accusation equals guilt is duly noted

Thanks for sharing Mr. Ashcroft's beliefs.

In case anyone is wondering what I think: She hasn't been "loose". He hasn't been tried.

Since I have absolutely no idea who did what to whom, I'll save my beliefs for the outcome of the trial.

--bkl
Let justice, not outrage, prevail.

[Julien Sorel]

43. Gee, I'm looking through my post, and no where in it

do I find where I said I believe 'women routinely lie about rape.' But your inability to make an argument without trying to cram words into other peoples' mouths is duly noted. As is your willingness to throw due process out the window, as long as the allegation is rape. I suppose it really is a different kind of crime after all -- the sort that removes the presumption of innocence from our legal system.

[kysrsoze]

46. Wow you just lied by accusing someone else of saying something they didn't

Makes you no better than the lawyers, right?

[Democat]

11. He is innocent under the law, whether you like it or not

There is a premise under our system that it is better for guilty people to walk free than for innocent people to go to jail.

Where is any evidence at all that Kobe did anything illegal?

Maybe he did it, maybe he didn't, but where is the evidence?

[Speed8098]

12. I agree with your assessment 100%

And those of you that disagree had better check your values.

In our DEMOCRATIC SOCIETY a person is INNOCENT until proven guilty BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT

How hard is that to understand?
If he is guilty, then he needs to go to prison. But let's wait untill ALL of the evidence is in before we start condemning this man.

I'm appalled at some of the responses on this thread. You do not seem like the type of people who should be calling themselves Democrats with that attitude.

He said, she said, that't what we have right now and that's not good enough to put a man in prison.

[dutchdemocrat]

14. Ok... What about freedom of speech?

Are you saying we are not allowed to judge the case and offer our thoughts on his innocence or guilt? Or the lowball tactics of his attorneys?

This is a Democratic forum and we are free to offer opinions last time I checked.

If I think he is guilty based on the evidence that has been so far put forward in the case, I reserve the right to offer an opinion on that evidence. What you are pushing is a gag order. Don't judge. Innocent until proven guilty. Yeah just like all those muslims at Gitmo.

I never accepted the outcome of the OJ trial either. Did you? Just because the jury let him go?

------------------

Prosecutors in Kobe Bryant Case Seek to Close at Least Portion of Hearing
By Jon Sarche Associated Press Writer
Published: Oct 11, 2003

EAGLE, Colo. (AP) - Prosecutors in the Kobe Bryant case asked a judge to close at least part of the preliminary hearing when it resumes next week, after defense attorneys questioned the sexual history of the woman who accused the NBA star of rape.
Prosecution spokeswoman Krista Flannigan said Friday the request involved a portion of the hearing. She declined to provide additional details.

Prosecutors made the request in private after the hearing on Thursday, when defense attorneys questioned the accuser's past.

Tom Kelley, a Denver attorney who represents several media organizations including The Associated Press, said he was told prosecutors sought to close the balance of the hearing.

Earlier, prosecutors had supported a public hearing, and Kelley called the move a "flip-flop."

"They got in all the stuff that is harmful to Kobe. When the witness started taking a beating on cross-examination, they move to close," Kelley said.

http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGATJZ0INLD.html

[Noordam]

26. sure you can dish out your Fox Feed News all you want

but remember Condit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[northzax]

54. er, technically

he is claiming to be 'not guilty' of the crime. hey, whaddya know? i can use bold text as well, does that mean i'm right?

[Cheswick2.0]

20. Where is the evidence?

They are presenting it in court. You aren't there, so you don't get to judge. Hopefully justice will be done.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

41. No, defense attorneys are NOT allowed to lie....

...because they can be held in contempt by the presiding judge. The penealty for contempt can range from simple fines to bigger fines and time in jail. The defense attorney already defied the judge's earlier restriction on what could and could not be discussed in the preliminary hearing, so I'm thinking that the defense team does indeed have evidence to prove their contention of more than one person having sex with KB's accuser within a certain timeframe. Additionally, intentionally lying in court can result in a lawyer being disbarred...not a good thing for someone who has obviously made the law a career.

Now, having said all of that, defense attorneys ARE allowed to present alternative scenarios based on the evidence presented in a case. That's what KB's attorney is doing, and what any other good defense attorney should do. Unfortunately for those that believe that a person is guilty until proven innocent, as well as those that believe that indefinite detention without representation is a good thing, that's part of our legal/judicial system.

Here's the case so far from what I've been able to glean from various sources:

1) KB claims that he and his accuser had consensual sex.

2) KB's accuser claims that she did engage in some consensual activities up to the point where she said "No". At that point she claims she was sexually assaulted.

3) KB was taken to a hospital later that day and samples were taken of those things necessary for a case of this type.

4) It is UNKNOWN exactly when KB's accuser was medically examined. More than one account has surfaced that she was not examined that day/evening.

5) Two rulings by the judge have greatly limited KB's defense at the preliminary hearing:

a) Certain evidence has been excluded from the preliminary hearing: the accuser's previous medical history to include previous attempt(s) to commit suicide.

b) The judge has ruled that the accuser cannot be asked to testify during the preliminary hearing.

6) There is some confusion as to exactly when the accuser was bruised and scratched. A local deputy apparently stated that she had no detectable scrapes or scratches when the accusation was officially filed.

7) The accuser attended a party a short time after the alleged assault took place and apparently described what took place to include a description of KB's physical size.

8) If the accuser had sex with ANYONE prior to whatever took place in KB's room, it will taint the accuser's case because of her delay in being examined and the alleged statement by the deputy noted above. In fact, it is entirely possible that she may have suffered her physical injuries at the hands of another person sometime PRIOR to her examination by the hospital.

Having stated all of the above, this case is going to be made very difficult for the accuser if any or all of the discrepancies noted above are true. Her case will be made even more difficult if any other testimony comes to light that casts doubt on her veracity. On the other hand, if the defense cannot credibly portray accusations that she may have had sex with anyone prior to KB, KB's case will suffer some real damage.

Now, you're entitled to say whatever you want about KB and this case, but KB is still entitled to a fair and balanced judicial process. He is NOT guilty until proven innocent. On the other hand, the accuser is to be treated fairly as well and I think the judge is doing the best he can to protect her rights under Colorado law while still protecting KB's rights.

[mumon]

42. From what I've seen...

he looks innocent.

Sorry folks, all men - let alone all black men- accused of rape aren't all guilty.

[Padraig18]

55. That doggoned old inconvenient...

... 'innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt and to a moral certainty' sure gets in the way of good lynchings, doesn't it?

What do you THINK his attorneys are supposed to do? Have you ever heard of legal malpractice? If they *didn't try* to discredit the evidence, they'd be guilty of it. :eyes:

He is *innocent* until proven g-u-i-l-t-y, and her accusation is just that--- an accustaion.

[NashVegas]

67. Defense

Bryant's attorney is putting this stuff out in an attempt to scare the kid off the witness stand. The other thing they are doing is guaranteeing (sp?) a poisoned jury pool. By they, I mean both sides - although, had Bryant waived the preliminary hearing, potential jurors would not be aware of these details before the trial's start.

The judge in this case needs to put a gag order on everyone involved.

About the extra semen, it might be true, who knows? It might also be true, as reported, that the accuser's blood was found on Bryant's t-shirt.

Until 2 days ago I was doing a very good job at ignoring this whole story.

[SoCalDem]

13. The whole thing is disgusting.. I hope it DOES highlight this fact

DNA exists.. It is NOT "junk science".

Let this be a warning to men out there who think they can "get away with it" if they have sex (consentual or otherwise).. Until you really know a person, you have NO WAY of knowing what may happen AFTER an encounter.. She/He may have been perfectly willing at the time, but later decides that YOU are the perfect one to go after for monetary reasons ( or other reasons)..

If a person is high-profile, it WILL be in he news, even if the "case" is settled or dropped..

Rape should NEVER be a source of entertainment, but the type of press we have now, csnnot resist every salacious detail.. It's disgusting..

For the "victim", it's always distressing, because they have to PROVE they were wronged.. No one asks a robbery victim about their past history of "walking around unaware" or ATM habits in the past..

Crimes involving intimate contact ALWAYS degenerate into circuses..

I guess Grandma WAS right.. "Never do/say anything that you would not want on the front page of the newspaper "..

[Judi Lynn]

16. Hi, SoCalDem! You just flew in from Tahiti!

How can you stand it?

Hope your new Gropinator won't last long, and will leave a little more humble than he arrived.

[Exultant Democracy]

56. now that was fair and balanced n/t

[qanda]

15. Why has Kobe been tried and

Convicted on this board! It's still her word against his. Because you heard certain facts come out from the trial, don't make them mean what you want them to mean.

[Cheswick2.0]

21. show me where anyone said he is guilty

he hasn't been tried and convicted here. The better question is why are some people here so upset that he might be found guilty? If he raped her, shouldn't you be on her side?
Why don't we just wait and see?

[NicoleM]

25. See post #8.

And yeah, he did it and he should pay just like anyone else.

I don't know if he did it or not. Assume for a moment that he didn't, and what his defense attorney is saying is true. Under those circumstances, wouldn't you want her to do the same thing if you were in Kobe's place?

At this point, exactly two people know what happened. I am not one of them. Therefore I am reserving judgement until I hear ALL of the evidence, which isn't going to happen in a preliminary hearing.

[private_ryan]

40. evidence?

Kobe is a man, athlete and black. That's plenty of evidence that he did it for many here. Next case!

[qanda]

44. Exactly!

eom

[0007]

30. Nor yours!

So why defend Kobe at this point?

[shockingelk]

19. what? you watch FAUX?

un-interesting ....

[Noordam]

27. Remember Gary Condit

Fox and other had the needle going in him.

[jrthin]

28. As a woman, as I minority, as a victim of

sexual violence, I find many of these posts disturbing. Many of these posts ASSUME that Kobi is guilty. Where have these "guilty" posts gotten their facts? Or is one guilty just because an accusation has been made? There are many men found guilty of rape who are now being released from prison because new DNA evidence has shown these men to be innocent and were falsely convicted.

[IndianaGreen]

32. Kobe Bryant is as guilty of rape as Arnold was of groping!

Unlike some people on this board, I do believe in the presumption of innocence and in due process, and I also believe in rape shield laws. A person's past sexual behaviour is not admissable unless it brings into question the alleged victim's account of events.

The media doesn't help either! For example, CNN today has a headline on its home page that screams "Muslim chaplain charged in U.S. spy case." It is only when one reads the story that one realizes that the government has no evidence of espionage against the chaplain, it only has a generic charge often used when there is a lack of evidence to even hold a suspect:

"Army Capt. James Yee, former Muslim chaplain at Guantanamo Bay, has been charged with two counts of failing to obey a lawful general order."

What did he do? Disclose the inhuman and illegal treatment of the prisoners at Guantanamo? Treat the prisoners with compassion?

An allegation is just an allegation, not a fact, and an arrest does not mean that one is guilty. More important, a person's political affiliation has nothing to do with their credibility on criminal matters. anymore than playing a professional sport does.

[Noordam]

33. We are NOT talking about Rape Shield Laws

We are talking about the foreign DNA in her at the time she said she was RAPE.... BIG Difference.

[IndianaGreen]

34. That's not evidence, that's an unsubstantiated allegation

printed in a newspaper after a "leak" by the defense team.

We have seen a lot of this so-called evidence before: the satanic cult that according to Scott Peterson killed his wife Lacy, and the Colombian drug lords that according to O.J. Simpson killed his ex-wife Nicole.

[TomNickell]

58. A bit of a difference....

IG,
There is a big difference between a criminal conviction and a question of public reputation.

If Kobe ever runs for Gov of California, it is fair make a judgment about whether he -might- be guilty and about his general behavior and reputation. This may be unfair, but necessary.

Seems to me there is little question Arnold is a boorish fellow who has bothered numerous women.

Before we lock either in jail, we need definite proof. But before we elect either to high office, -they- need to give -us- proof.

[private_ryan]

39. the more I read the same posts

the more I tend to agree with the right wing that some segment of population HATES men. You know who am I talking about...

[BiggJawn]

31. Isn't somebody being eaten by a shark somewhere?

Frankly, I don't care if they find Bill Clinton's splooge in her ears.

If this didn't involve a "celebrity" it wouldn't even get coverage locally.
You wanna start a flame war on "Kobe's INNOCENT-No he's NOT" go right ahead.

Karl Rove thanks you for your attention.

[radwriter0555]

35. Well we DID have a TIGER attack and a BEAR attack, what more

do ya want?

[northzax]

53. Lions?

is that too much to ask?

[BiggJawn]

71. Oh, MY!

Lions....and tigers.....
And BEARS!
Oh My!

[demgrrrll]

36. If I were a celebrity I would be battening down every hatch I could find

because you know when this dies down they will be looking for another story to deflect from Bush's misdeeds and troubles. I'd be flying low to the ground....and compact.

[Mr.Green93]

37. Isn't somebody being eaten by a shark somewhere?

Thanks for the laugh.

[private_ryan]

38. nasty trick?

some women lie about rape and some men rape, now we have to find out who is telling the truth.

If you're accused of robbing a store and another guy was there 5 minutes before it's fair game to question whether he did it or not. She says she was raped and Kobe says she wasn't, the only evidence apparently is that vaginal injury and blood.

As far as they injury she could've been injured before and not notice it, how many times have you cut your finger and not notice it until you saw the blood?

This is fair game, anyone accused of a crime deserves to defend himself.

[Occulus]

47. Whaaaat.... thaaaa......

FU*K.

WHY should we, any of us here, CARE about this? It's a distraction, anda very convienient one for * and his cronies. It's a rape case, like a thousand others that get opened every day (thousand is just a good, round number to toss out- I know very well it's not the actual number of rape charges filed daily in the US). The *only* reason we've heard about it is because the accused is a "celebrity" of some kind.

I don't know or care who Kobe is, why he was accused of what he was, who his accuser is, or anything else regarding this case. I, friends, have bigger fish to cast for.

Why are we wasting our time talking about this case?

[realFedUp]

48. and we can imagine how Kobe's handled other women...

this can't be his first rape can it....

[Padraig18]

49. Two points rapidly being lost in the clutter

Point 1.) Kobe Bryant is persumed innocent until proven guilty, and he is entitled to a vigorous defense; if his lawyers did NOT question physical evidence, statements and witness' testimony, they would be committing malpractice.

Point 2.) Vigorous sexual intercourse can cause injuries to the vulva and vagina which are NOT greatly different from those one would expect to find on the victim in this case; therefore, evidence of another man's semen on the victim's panties is HIGHLY material and relevant.

While I do not believe an alleged rape victim should be pilloried for her sexual past, neither do I believe that she is entitled to be believed automatically. If the physical evidence, witness' statements, etc., cannot be examined and subjected to cross-examination, then what is the point of an evidentiary (preliminary) hearing, may I ask?

[Southsideirish]

50. So even if she did have sex with another guy - so what??

What does one have to do with the other? She had his semen on her and he had her blood on his shirt.

[Padraig18]

51. That does not *prove* that he raped her,...

...it merely proves that they had sex. There is nothing to prove that the brusing to her vulva and vaginal tearing were NOT sustained prior to encountering Kobe, and given the presence of another man's semen in her panties, the defense in *entitled* to inquire as to whether or not she may have sustained her injuries during sex with that other man.

She is NOT entitled to automatic credibility, simple because she says "Kobe raped me."

[ElsewheresDaughter]

52. it could also have been self inflicted...it has happened before...she did

wait almost 1 1/2 before going to hospital....i know a few women who have done similiar things to get back at boyfriends that have jilted them...very sad and very scary desperate women....these type of women do exist....and i believe it should be looked at...a women i know very well for years...lives next door is doing this now to hurt her ex....ok flame away

[pasadenaboy]

57. I'm ready for the flames, with this comment.

I think the problem with this case, it is really he said/she said. She went to the room willingly. They made out willingly. They had sex, something went terribly wrong. Either it was rape, or she was regretful, or she is not sane. Which is the case. I don't know. There is probably a 50/50 chance she got raped by Kobe and is telling the truth. The is probably a 50/50 chance that it was consentual and Kobe is telling the truth. There doesn't seem to be any significant physical evidence, so I don't think we will ever know.

His attorney is doing exactly what I would want my attorney to do. In a case of two conflicting stories, with limited physical evidence, I would absolutely want my attorney to do whatever is necessary to descredit the testimony of whomever was disagreeing with my testimony. That is their job.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

59. Moral of the Story

Your parents were right: always change your underwear.

:evilgrin:

DTH

[Padraig18]

61. Hehe

I've been thinking to myself ever since I heard about this: "She doesn't even change her underwear after SEX? Ewwww!" :P

[oxycontinrush]

64. ROFL!

too funny

[JackSwift]

60. I presume Mr. Bryant is completely innocent

of the charge of rape. Not only that, but if the accuser claims that she was injured as the result of rough rape and those injuries turn out to have been incurred during other consensual instances of sex with other men, that strongly suggests acquittal.

A number of the posters here have suggested through their posts that there should be a presumption of guilt, that a woman would never make up such a charge. I can't accept that all women are incapable of lying about being raped.

[Ripley]

62. Why is her blood on his shirt then?

I guess bleeding during sex is normal and natural to some men, as long as it's her blood not theirs.

[Padraig18]

63. You've *never* made you partner bleed? Not *ever*? n/t

[GinaMaria]

68. Uh no

nor have I bled.

Are you saying you make your partner bleed as part of sexual intimacy?

[candy331]

70. Blood?

Been talking this over with someone who knows ladies of the evening and even these ladies can't understand this bleeding vagina thing unless they say she was a virgin. This is a hell uv of a case is all I can say. Guilty or innocent I do not know but hopefully the evidence will bring it all out. Then I hope for God's sake it will be dropped and not brought up like OJ for eternity. For Clinton haters they'll never get over it and people who want to keep divison going will always bring up OJ. Before bringing up the OJ comparison why not examine the reason you are doing so before you speak. How many white persons have been found not guilty of killing a black?. Shame on people who keeep this OJ line going. Will we now have to hear OJ along with KB forever?

[dutchdemocrat]

65. Bump

Bump

[oxycontinrush]

66. I told you Clinton's penis did it. There's the proof.

This explains everything.