US opens criminal probe of two army deaths in Iraq (Fragged?)

[RamboLiberal]

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/MAR050364.htm

The U.S. army has opened a criminal investigation into a blast that killed two soldiers at a base in Iraq after discovering it was not caused by an insurgent mortar attack, a military statement said on Friday.

It said Captain Phillip Esposito and 1st Lieutenant Louis Allen were killed on Tuesday in an explosion at Forward Operating Base Danger near Saddam Hussein's hometown, Tikrit.

"The initial investigation by responders and military police indicated that a mortar round struck the window on the side of the building where Esposito and Allen were located at the time," the statement said.

"Upon further examination of the scene by explosive ordnance personnel, it was determined the blast pattern was inconsistent with a mortar attack."

[Jacobin]

1. Hmm, a captain and a 1st Lieutenant.....

Has the fragging begun?

It's the only thing missing to make this a perfect match for Viet Nam.

[nadinbrzezinski]

3. I think it has... it was charlie you see coming in

and using OUR grenades

[TahitiNut]

5. It's long past "begun"

When fraggings don't even await a hostile fire episode and become this overt, there's not much question that the animosity in the enlisted ranks has reached the tipping point. Fraggings are the last resort of enlisted troops against a 'leadership' that's perceived as exceedingly threatening to the life and limb of enlisted personnel.

It's very important to realize that the sum and substance of the motivation of troops in combat is to cover one another's butts. "Politics" becomes glaringly simple in a combat zone: it's the buddy system. Anything or anyone that's seen as immediately threatening to the lives of people with whom you eat and sleep is the 'enemy.' Mickey Mouse martinets have a very short life expectancy.

One of the most bizarre "facts of enlisted life" in Viet Nam (I still prefer the Vietnamese spelling) was seeing and working with indigenous people every day that we knew were probably Viet Cong -- and knowing that we didn't have person-to-person animosity even though we'd be trying to kill one another during orchestrated attack scenarios. It was the almost unspoken understanding - that the barber who was using a razor while giving you a haircut was probably a VC or helping the VC at night. Something in the eyes. Some kind of subliminal understanding. Crazy-making. (Maybe some would call it a "shared psychosis. I didn't think so, but I was a 'Nut' then too.)

Meet Thuy ...

[Submariner]

19. The troops have no motivation to go on

They must know or at least feel by now that they were LIED into a war, and now they see there warlock republican brothers avoiding harms way and the army and marine recruiting stations like the plague.

They know they don't have enough combat soldiers in the field to the job, so with this phony "defending murika" hype seen as a lie, I can see what you mean by looking to protect each other.

I was not a ground-pounder, but I could envision myself disobeying an order to put my ass in the line of fire for Bush's Iraq war. Maybe that is what happened and someone took the opportunity to dust a couple of west point types putting their command at risk. The old kiss ass up the chain of command thingy.

On edit: Some colonel got killed the other day...the highest rank mortal casualty so far, I wondering now if that was a frag.

Iraq is Arabic for Viet Nam

[TahitiNut]

32. Psychology (and philosophy) in a combat zone is very "bottoms up".

People operate at the most fundamental level of Maslow's Hierarchy: survival. One's own survival is enhanced if others help you ensure it. Therefore, you bond with your buddies. This is simple and immediate -- it uses absolutely no intellectual horsepower. You sleep and eat with your buddies. Bonded, you are vigilant to any threat. The foremost threat is whomever is shooting at you -- and anyone who looks like them or acts like them. It's animalistic and instinctual. It's the very source of ritual, clothing, and cosmetics. Threats are increased or decreased according to where you are and what you're doing. Again, this is very basic - almost reptilian ritualism - and requires almost no higher order thought.

This is where we even begin to get into thought processes. This is where we get into questions of "why am I here?" and "why am I doing this?" When not thoroughly convinced that it's to protect "home and hearth" (or nation) the soldier's "motivation" is a bit iffy. Any line officer who doesn't appreciate this has a very limited life expectancy. Any line officer who becomes a perceived threat will be fragged if the opportunity arises. The most reckless and brain-dead will go first. Typically, all that's needed to understand why some line officer got fragged is their association with prior casualties. Did they order people out on some useless patrol where they go killed? Can they be held at least partly responsible for any deaths? If so, they're toast.

[DemoTex]

6. Company grade officers (Ell-tees and Captains) ..

The most frequently fragged in Vietnam.

[AndyTiedye]

7. Maybe That Explains the Sudden Shortage of Officers

ARLINGTON, Va. — Facing an urgent requirement to field an additional 300 second lieutenants in 2006, Army officials have decided to make it easier for nontraditional officer candidates to enter that career track.

Two-star generals now can sign waivers that would allow Officer Candidate School admission for NCOs who are older than 30 or who may have minor criminal or military offenses on their records, according to a memo sent to Army leaders on May 25.
...
Speed is of the essence, Hilferty said. Instead of the 4,300 new officers Army officials originally thought they would need to produce in fiscal 2006, the real requirement is 4,600.

http://www.estripes.com/article.asp?section=104&article=29616

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=1537761

[radar]

8. CO & Ops officer, no less...

"assigned to the Headquarters Company of the 42nd Infantry Division. Esposito was company commander and Allen was an operations officer."

Steve Gilliard's NewsBlog posts stories that might be of interest regards military, iraq, vietnam, history etc....
http://stevegilliard.blogspot.com/

[TahitiNut]

33. I'll bet a dollar against a moldy old horse turd ...

... that there were some troop casualties associated with what they ordered some troops to do, often for reasons of puffery, pretense, or show. Officers who are seen as part of the problem and not part of the survival get fragged. Line officers who get troops killed for stupid reasons or due to stupid leadership get fragged.,

[rocktivity]

12. Do lieutenants and captains tend to have the least field experience?

I could see where that would make it harder for troops to have confidence in a leader who was coming fresh out an officer training program.

:headbang:
rocknation

[DemoTex]

13. 1st Ell-tees and captains are usually fairly well seasoned.

2nd Ell-tees, especially newbies, are generally green (unless they are re-treaded NCOs). The problem is that company grade officers (1st and 2nd Lts and captains) are the closest to the troops. They live with the troops and they lead the troops. If morale goes south it is usually easier to find an Ell-tee to take revenge on than a colonel back at battalion headquarters. The irony sometimes is that the order the Ell-tee gave that pissed off the troops came from an asshole colonel overhead in the C&C (command and control) helicopter (which was exactly what happened day-after-day at the Battle of Hamburger Hill in Vietnam).

[leftchick]

10. This is actually the third this week

and yeah, the fragging has been going on for a while now.

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

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[RBHam]

16. Both wars are illegal and based on lies.

Similar enough.

Sigh.

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

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[Jacobin]

17. You forgot your sarcasm moniker

Iraq is Viet Nam on steriods.

No valid reason to invade.
Trumped up reasons given (WMD in Iraq), Gulf of Tonkin "incident" in Vietnam.

We were not attacked in either conflict before we started it.

Not being fought to 'win' but to 'liberate'.

Puppet governments elected in a fraudulent way in both conflicts, which the populace does not support.

Guerilla warfare you can't tell friend from foe. They melt into the city/jungle when not shooting at you.

Becoming more unpopular by the day.

Draft in Viet Nam. We can't get enough troops for Iraq Nam.

Would you mind explaining how they are "different", except for the geography?

[Name removed]

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[radar]

21. Those pathetic fighters have done a nice job...

Keeping our soldiers confined to the relative safety of their bases when not on duty. Those pathetic fighters have rpgs & automatic weapons the VC only dreamt of

Have you seen, heard, read any stories/reports of soldiers browsing through the country where civilization originated a la tourists without the body armor, weapons & safety in numbers?
...Vietnam vets could get off base and shop, drink, or get laid amongst the civilians - without the body armor.

Humvees and trucks with inadequate armor are in the news so often because the choppers aren't flying like they used to in 'Nam.

"...Ever wonder why the 101 spent their tour in trucks instead of their Blackhawks? Well, because of the rpg and the SAM. People were suprised that $20 grenades can blow million dollar machines out of the sky. Well, they can. I guess the Iraqis saw Black Hawk Down. What was a desperation tactic in Somalia is now SOP for the Iraqis."
http://stevegilliard.blogspot.com/2005/04/how-not-to-fight-war.html

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

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[radar]

25. Well "militarily speaking..."

The Iraqi opponents aren't going to retreat - they live there.

Respect your learned opinion - but the tactics our military currently employs to subdue opposition shows me the leadership hasn't learned from the loss of Vietnam; shooting up the general area with superior firepower won't convince the average Iraqi to point out the "bad guys" in the crowd.

[Name removed]

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[panzerfaust]

27. With respect:: Bullshit

In Viet Nam the USA lost 58,226 KIA/MIA, 153,303 WIA.

The NV/VC figures are very speculative. Probably about 500,000 KIA, 300,000 MIA.

RVN: Perhaps 300,000 KIA.

Civilians (Not including Laos and Cambodia – likely at least another 500,000 in these countries) probably 2-3 million were killed (no one was counting), at least twice that number must have been wounded.

Then there were deaths in the troops from Australia/NZ, Korea, China, USSR, Thailand … thousands more dead here.

As is pointed out in the Wikipedia article where these figures were mostly derieved from (also see the link below), the total count is not in yet.

No, am not talking about the lives shattered by physical disability and by PTSD, but by people (many of whom were children playing) who are being killed even now – decades later - by our unexploded ordinance (which we have refused to try to retrieve). At least 40,000 have been killed, countless others maimed, since the last American came home.

And then there are the tens of thousands of children born with birth defects from our actions. Even our government admits “Birth defects continue at a high rate in areas that were heavily defoliated”, and you can only imagine how bad it must be if the Regime is willing to admit this much.

The maiming and killing in Viet Nam is not done yet. It will not be for decades more.

Sorry son, but Iraq is not Viet Nam ‘on steroids’. Iraq is Viet Nam suckling on it’s mother’s breast.

It is going to get a lot worse.

[Jacobin]

29. For the length of time Iraq has been going on

It is comparable or worse than Viet Nam in the first two years.

Time will tell whether we reach the casualty rates of Viet Nam, but that will take eleven more years to determine, won't it?

[TahitiNut]

35. "It is going to get a lot worse." .. Amen.

I did Viet Nam. Iraq isn't Viet Nam. (But a combat death is a combat death.) However, the political faults and partisan fabrications by the adminstration are "on steroids" compared to the rationalizations and lies that embedded us in Viet Nam. It's in the domestic symptoms that the similarities lie. Since the vast majority of people who're banging the "it's Vietnam all over again" tom-toms base their opinions on a domestic perspective, it's not surprising.

[carincross]

31. another similarity

Vietnam almost destroyed our military. Iraq is now doing the same thing. The longer this goes on the more and more the two wars become alike. Iraqi vets now walk the streets homeless, and fragging has now started. Bring the troops home for our sake and theirs....

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

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[Teaser]

4. What?

nt

[ugarte]

9. Imagine the parents of these two

Just another kind of "friendly fire."

[TX-RAT]

11. Nope, it's called murder.

[pfitz59]

14. Self-preservation......

Troopers resent being used as "trip-wires" and "cannon-fodder". Would you like being ordered to die so Biggus Dickus could get his "deferred" Halliburton salary, or so Commander Bunnypants can get a hard-on?

[TX-RAT]

22. So you think the premeditated murder of our soldiers, by our soldiers

Is OK?

[DoBotherMe]

24. This ain't no morality play

Nothing about this folly is okay. D ; )

[Jacobin]

30. It's not a parlor game

Its 125 degrees, you haven't had enough to eat, you are a teenager, you have been scared shitless for 18 months, and duck at the sound of a door slamming, you just found out that your girlfriend is back home going out with your 'best friend', your comrades, some of them are dead, some of them are mangled back in hospitals...you watched some of them get hit.

You are two months short, you know the entire military venture is a disaster and a lie to steal oil, and your CO comes up to you, out of his air conditioned bunker, and tells you to go do something which you know is a suicide mission, or close to it, which will achieve absolutely nothing.

You want to live......I'm not sure what I would do in those circumstances.

[jazzjunkysue]

43. The GOP counted on our inability to comprehend what invading Iraq

would mean to our teenagers. The sickest thing is that so many war veterans didn't balk at the idea, but became ever more "patriotic" and supportive of the war just because the Boy King wanted it so badly.

Many thanks to those of you who served in wartime and are now here to educate the rest of us. Thanks for staying with this.

[malmapus]

34. I hate to say it but there is a difference to me

I wasn't in Nam and luckily didn't end up with any idiots on deployments where major decisions were needed.

But we ended up with a Company CO who was all book smarts and nothing else (if he even used his book smarts). This guy was getting us killed on freaking JRTC making stupid mistakes, and almost got ME and a couple others killed doing a live fire exercise.

Now take him on an extended deployment in a major hostile environment where other buddies lives are in danger on the whim of a command from this guy. I almost guarentee for the better of the whole he would of been taken out of the equation one way or the other.

[TahitiNut]

36. As a Viet Nam Vet ... I have to say (sadly) yes.

It's a dirty little secret that those who "investigated" fraggings in 'Nam pretty much abandoned any further examinations when they found that the fragging victims were reckless or irresponsible in the deployment of troops. Such investigations were usually abandoned "for the good of the service." The 'service' got rid of a lousy officer - and saved troop lives. The families were told they died 'honorably' and given a nice flag. And other families were more likely to be able to welcome home returning troops!

This is just one of the many gut-wrenching, crazy-making surrenders of civility and sanity that takes place in a combat zone. In Viet Nam, we didn't take Charlie to the local justice of the peace for a trial by a jury of his peers. He didn't get Mirandized. He got shot, bombed, or napalmed. The same happened to NVA, ARVN, USARV, MACV, ANZAC, and ROK. That's what substitutes for "life" in a combat zone. "Abandon sanity all ye who enter there."

[0007]

37. Self-preservation......is not the cause of premeditation

[panzerfaust]

28. Fragging was not unique to Viet Nam

“Fragging” (Derived from Fragmentation Grenade) has been a part of all wars, of all armies. It is how the troops remove those officers who are a danger to survival.

For those of you who have never been to war, I can only (once again) suggest that you read Goodbye, Darkness: A Memoir of the Pacific War by William Manchester. It will give you a very good understanding of what it is like. Perhaps the best understanding you can have without actually shipping out.

For those of you who have been dipped in the shit, I also recommend it: They (the Greatest Generation in WW2) had to put up with the same crap, and dealt with it in the same way, that we did in Viet Nam.

[maddezmom]

38. kick to combine

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

39. self delete

i searched using "fragging" instead of "fragged". my bad. MKJ

[TahitiNut]

40. See ...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1538699

[Doctor_J]

41. More like Nam every day

...

[MADem]

42. Front Towards Enemy?????

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m18-claymore.htm

[RamboLiberal]

44. New Info - NY Daily News mentions word Fragging

http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/318015p-271965c.html

<snip>

Soldiers reported four explosions destroyed the ground-floor room where Esposito and Allen had been sleeping in one of the many marble buildings of the sprawling palace complex built around a man-made lake. The Army occupied the facility in 2003 and renamed it Forward Operating Base Danger. Despite its name, attacks on the base have been so rare that soldiers there are not required to wear their body armor.

"We are evaluating all possible threats to our soldiers," Buckner said. "We are taking all measures to ensure the safety of our soldiers."

Known as the "Rainbow Division," the 42nd is based upstate and draws soldiers from several Northeastern states.

The only confirmed "fragging" of officers in the Iraq war occurred in the days before the invasion began. A court-martial in April convicted an Army sergeant of murdering two officers in a grenade attack in Kuwait.