MOVE Marks Police Bombing Anniversary

[chlamor]

MOVE Marks Police Bombing Anniversary

Sunday May 15, 2005 12:31 AM

By PATRICK WALTERS

Associated Press Writer

PHILADELPHIA (AP) - Under the watchful eyes of police and neighbors, the militant group MOVE marked the 20th anniversary Saturday of the police bombing that destroyed the organization's home and killed 11 members.

Group members and supporters gathered in West Philadelphia near the site where police trying to evict armed MOVE members from a rowhouse dropped an explosive from a helicopter. Officers then ordered firefighters to keep their distance as flames killed six adults and five children and consumed 61 adjacent homes.

``We will never allow another May 13, 1985,'' MOVE supporter Orie Ross shouted through a bullhorn to about 75 people. ``Our family can't be replaced.''

The group, which espoused equality with animals and preached against technology, had clashed with neighbors and police long before the bombing. Neighbors complained that group members shouted from bullhorns late into the night, were confrontational and unsanitary, and jogged on people's roofs.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-5006644,00.html

[cestpaspossible]

1. Jogging on roofs

is certainly a crime deserving of the death penalty.

[Demit]

3. MOVE (an acronym that doesn't stand for anything, it's just made up)

was a radical, anti-social group that lived in a house on a nice block in a middle-class neighborhood. They didn't bathe, they threw their human waste into their backyard, and they kept the neighbors up at all hours shouting through bullhorns & running back and forth along everyone's adjoining porch roofs. They fortified this ordinary rowhouse by building a bunker on the roof. Which is what the stupid stupid police were trying to breach when they used the C4. The stupid stupid fire chief made the decision to let the bunker burn.

This was a mortifying event in Philadelphia's history. But this was not a pacifist group, this was a group whose sole purpose it seemed was to radically confront & defy any social norm. The city grossly mishandled the situation, but MOVE was not blameless. They even used their own children as pawns in the confrontation. It was horrendous.

[chlamor]

4. Learn more about MOVE

The word 'radical' means 'to the root'. As always the context is to be the center from which we observe the singularity lest our assertions and calculations go astray from the start.

Nobody was Supposed to Survive 

by Alice Walker 

There we stood on a street corner in Paris, reading between the lines. It seems MOVE people never combed their hair, but wore it in long 'ropes' that people assumed were unclean. Since this is also how we wear out hair, we recognized this 'weird' style: dreadlocks. The style of the ancients: Ethiopians and Egyptians. Easily washed, quickly dried - a true wash-and-wear style for black people (and adventuresome whites) and painless, which is no doubt why MOVE people chose it for their children. And "for themselves: 'Why suffer for cosmetic reasons?' they must have asked.

It appeared that the MOVE people were vegetarians and ate their food raw because they believed raw food healthier for the body and the soul. They believed in letting orange peels, banana peels, and other organic refuse 'cycle' back into the earth. Composting? They did not believe in embalming dead people or burying them in caskets. They thought they should be allowed to 'cycle' back to the earth, too. They loved dogs (their leader, John Africa, was called 'The Dog Man' because he cared for so many) and never killed animals of any kind, not even rats (which infuriated their neighbors), because they believed in the sanctity of all life.

<snip>

Further: They refused to send their children to school, fearing drugs and an indoctrination into the sickness of American life. They taught them to enjoy 'natural' games, in the belief that games based on such figures as Darth Vader caused 'distortions' in the personalities of the young that inhibited healthy, spontaneous expression. They exercised religiously, running miles every day with their dogs, rarely had sit-down dinners, ate out of big sacks of food whenever they were hungry, owned no furniture except a few pieces they'd found on the street, and refused to let their children wear diapers because of the belief that a free bottom is healthier. They abhorred the use of plastic. They enjoyed, apparently, the use of verbal profanity, which they claimed lost any degree of profanity when placed next to atomic or nuclear weapons of any sort, which they considered really profane. They hated the police, who they claimed harassed them relentlessly (a shoot-out with police in 1978 resulted in the death of one officer and the imprisonment of several MOVE people). They occasionally self-righteously and disruptively harangued their neighbors, using bullhorns. They taught anyone who would listen that the US political and social system is corrupt to the core - and tried to be, themselves, a different tribe within it....

<snip>

The people of MOVE are proof that poor people, not just upper- and middle-class whites and blacks who become hippies, are capable of intelligently perceiving and analyzing American life, politically and socially, and of devising and attempting to follow a different - and, to them, better - way. But because they are poor and black, this is not acceptable behavior to middle-class whites and blacks who think all poor black people should be happy with jherri curls, mindless (and lying) TV shows, and Kentucky fried chicken.

This is not to condone the yelping of fifty to sixty dogs in the middle of the night, dogs MOVE people rescued from the streets (and probable subsequent torture in 'scientific' laboratories), fed, and permitted to sleep in their house. Nor to condone the bullhorn they used to air their neighbors' 'backwardness' or political transgressions, as apparently they had a bad habit of doing. From what I read, MOVE people were more fanatical than the average neighbors. I probably would not have been able to live next door to them for a day.

The question is: Did they deserve the harassment, abuse, and, finally, the vicious death other people's intolerance of their life style brought upon them? 

Every bomb ever made falls on all of us. 

And the answer is: No.

http://www.mindfully.org/Reform/MOVE-Alice-Walker1988.htm

[Demit]

8. I didn't need to read Alice Walker to learn about MOVE.

As she notes, she learned about in Paris. I was here & lived it. (And watched both sorry sagas, Powelton Village and Osage Avenue, as they happened.) Ms. Walker paints such an idealized picture of MOVE in this essay. The group sounds so lovely and benign. They were not.

As for what radical means: don't be pedantic. It also means extreme.

I have no idea what your second sentence means.

[kodi]

10. right. i lived in philly then and those MOVE folks were just plain nuts

and they were dangerous to those around them. alice walker must have shit for brains or a hatred for the truth to have written such revisionist history.

if she could write such bullshit she could write travel brochures for concentration camps and make them look like cancun.

the MOVE people were a nasty bunch, nothing more than a cult that destroyed their neighborhood and harassed neighbors and strangers alike.

people seem to forget that it was at the insistence of their black neighbors that the city hall finally took action against MOVE and that a black mayor was in office at the time.

Powelton Village? its been a long time since i heard that name.

[Redstone]

39. kodi, you're absolutely right. I knew those MOVE assholes back in the

70s, and a bigger bunch of dirty, foul, insane, obnoxious, self-important, pointless, arrogant, flaming shitheels you'd never find.

The worst thing of all was they way they treated their kids. If adults want to live the kind of filthy, hostile existence the MOVErs did, that's their choice. But forcing kids to grow up in that kind of environment is nothing but pure, simple child abuse.

Not that I ever like the idiot Philadelphia PD very much, and they probably went overboard with the bomb business, but those MOVE assholes were just begging for it.

You get right in someone's face and scream "HIT ME, GO AHEAD AND HIT ME, I DARE YOU, COME ON, HIT ME" for long enough, you shouldn't be surprised when you get punched.

Redstone

[Name removed]

84. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cestpaspossible]

5. One of my neighbors is a real asshole.

Maybe I can convince the government to kill him for me.

[Demit]

7. Your flippant remarks show me you don't know this subject very well.

[cestpaspossible]

9. I just think it is wrong to drop bombs on apartment houses

if you want to believe that my feelings in this matter are based on misinformation, this would be a good chance to inform me. Or if it's the best you can do, you could limit yourself to lame, ineffective, and inaccurate personal comments about me based on your speculations.

PS, take my poll

[LynneSin]

13. Yes, it is wrong to drop bombs on entire neighborhood blocks but...

....the city needed to do something to address this problem. I had a sorority sister that lived like 2-3 blocks from this home and was with me the day that MOVE was bombed (we were all in Avalon NJ celebrating my 19th birthday.

MOVE was a health hazard to the neighbors because of their 'back to earth' mentality. If these people wanted to let their garbage & human waste pile up in the backyard they would have been better off out in the country than in some row home neighborhood where neighbors are on top of neighbors. It's all fine & dandy to support MOVE's existance unless you were one of their neighbors and had to live near this filth.

Our group in Avalon ended up in front of the TV most of the day watching this event unfold and calming the fears of our friend that hopefully the fire would be contained within the neighborhood block (and to our sorority sister that owned the house that it was imperitive that we make long distance calls on the phone in order for Kathy to keep in touch with her family).

Wilson Goode and the city of Philadelphia are definately to blame for this fiasco, but don't start hero worshipping MOVE - they were scum that made it difficult for the rest of the neighbors in that block

[iamjoy]

182. That's What I Wonder

they would have been better off out in the country. Closer to the lifestyle they claimed to prefer and out of everybody's hair. Instead, they lived in the suburbs. It sounds like they made life miserable for their neighbors (maybe on purpose) and were possibly creating a health hazard if they had the raw sewage in their yard.

As for the actions of whether or not the police were extreme, we always tend to say that anytime there is loss of life, particularly so many and in cases like these, especially children who did not "choose" to live this way or violate the law. (IANAL, but it seems like MOVE was guilty of extreme zoning violations and had doubtless failed to act upon warnings. They were also disturbing the peace and creating a health hazard). Of course in hindsight none of what they did seems like it warrented such an extreme response, but what option would have worked?

In some ways it makes me think of what happened in Waco, with the Branch Davidians.

[chlamor]

184. How many examples past and present

would one need to cite so as to convince the observer that the symptom was NOT the disease?

"Of all races in an advanced stage of civilization, the American is the least accessible to long views. . . . Always and everywhere in a hurry to get rich, he does not give a thought to remote consequences; he sees only present advantages. . . . He does not remember, he does not feel, he lives in a materialist dream."
--Moiseide Ostrogorski (1902, 302-303)

[Pachamama]

185. Your right on both counts-firebombing a house w/ kids in it was wrong but

so was the situation in which this group of people were living too...I went to school at Penn and was there when this happened...a bunch of fellow students and athletes who were staying on campus after graduation were up in the High rises watching the fires glowing and burning at night...it was awful...I think it was the same summer that they had a garbage strike and Philadelphia really earned its name "Filthadelphia"...My sorority was also a few blocks from there and I passed by this area quite often...it was pretty bad and a health hazard to the neighbors and community....If they had been living out in the country on some 20 acre parcel, that would have been one thing, but living in a row house on a 1500 sq ft lot is ridiculous.

The way Mayor Willie B. Goode and the Phillie PD handled this situation was awful....talk about a failed politician and corrupt police dept.....

Alice Walker's recount of the existence of MOVE sounds nice, but that Utopia is not what existed on the block that burned....But to have a standoff like that was so unneccessary and wrong....

[Demit]

14. For starters, it wasn't an apartment house.

It was a two-story, single-family rowhouse. The fact that you don't know that is telling. Also, that you insist on reducing this story to a story of people merely "jogging on roofs" or being "assholes" tells me that you are not interested in being fully informed. You apparently just want to toss off quips about the government. That's not speculation on my part; that's observation.

I am cautioning you that this was a more complicated story than you know. It was a catastrophe that resulted in, in retrospect, an indefensible act by city officials that will forever be a stain on the city's history. But MOVE, with its military arms and fortified fortress, was NOT an innocent feel-good group just minding their own business, or having a little fun. They deliberately provoked the confrontation and willingly escalated it.

[msanthrope]

21. Damn Straight--I love how people who don't live here

romaticize this group of murderous thugs.

MOVE? Looking for trouble, and whining when they found it.

RIP John Gilbride. And if you don't know who he is, and how MOVE executed him, then shame on you and STFU. (Not you, DemItAllTheWay)

[cestpaspossible]

28. Murder is wrong whether commited by civilians or the police.

are the children the police burned alive the ones who killed John Gilbride? Maybe the police somehow guessed that decades later, he would be killed, and decided to kill these children as a sort of 'advance retribution'.

I can't believe I am actually being attacked for thinking the police should not kill innocent children.

[Redstone]

42. NOBODY HERE IS DEFENDING WHAT THE COPS DID!

Stop putting word into people's mouths, would you?

Torry for the shouting, but it annoys me when people do that. Every post I've seen here byt people who were actually THERE says "The city / police were wrong, but..."

Redstone

[cestpaspossible]

46. I don't agree with you. It looks like defending the cops to me.

It's as if my child were shot by the police, someone expressed outrage, and someone responded to them by saying "but cestpaspossible was a really bad person" - I'd call that defending what the cops did. An invalid, morally reprehensible defense, but a defense nevertheless.

[enough already]

90. Poor analogy by someone who is clearly uninformed

A more appropriate analogy would be, "cestpaspossible created a dangerous environment for his own child and his neighbors, built a fortified bunker on his roof, armed himself to the teeth, threatened cops and neighbors with violence, then his child was shot in the crossfire by police....." In such a scenario, which is actually what happened and which you want to deny, you are every bit as culpable as the cops.

[cestpaspossible]

105. um, no

his child was shot in the crossfire by police....." In such a scenario, which is actually what happened and which you want to deny

That's what happened? Children were 'shot in the crossfire'. Crossfire? So there were bombs being dropped on the police as well as on the MOVE house?

So much for the attack on me as 'uninformed'.. :eyes:

[Tomee450]

107. Well

It seems like you are defending the cops to me. There were innocent children in that apartment. Many of the neighbors who had wanted the police to take action, were horrified at what they did. There were also reports that the mayor was not given accurate information about what was to be done. Nothing that MOVE did excused the bombing in a residential area resulting in the deaths of innocent people and the destruction of many homes.

[enough already]

73. You're being "attacked"

Because you haven't got a clue what MOVE was all about. I also live in Philly and that group were/are the most vile pigs you'll ever meet in your life. Their treatment of their own children was totally barbaric. The city and the (democratic) mayor fucked up royally, but those jerks wanted a fight and they got it. The local PBS station did a 20 year retrospective of the incident recently. You might want to try and get a copy, get informed, and then come back to discuss.

[Name removed]

75. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cestpaspossible]

79. Yeah. I don't think anything MOVE did is an excuse for burning their kids

That's my point, and anyone who wants to disagree with me is welcome to state their opinion, but simply accussing me of being 'uninformed' because I condemn the police killing children - and that is all I've done - is not neither a persuasive argument, nor is this unrelated and off-topic speculative attack on me in any way a response to my point that burning children alive is wrong.

[RobinA]

85. It Amazes Me

that they haven't solved this Gilbride thing. The police have every reason to be trying REALLY hard to get to the bottom of it.

[cestpaspossible]

96. Sarcasm? or unintended irony?

[JohnnyBoots]

164. Wasn't Mumia connected to them or related to Romona Africa in

some way. I was only six when it happened and I can remember the pictures from the news watching it with my mom.

[cestpaspossible]

30. I'm not interested in your speculation about what I know, but I agree

that the bombing was an indefensible act by city officials that will forever be a stain on the city's history.

I have absolutely no idea why you insist on pretending that I believe MOVE was "an innocent feel-good group just minding their own business, or having a little fun". That is simply something that came out of your mind, absolutely unrelated in any way to what I think or said.

But I do think that 'assholes' is a pretty accurate description of the MOVE people, and I'm pretty sure that they also jogged on people's roofs. So I don't know what your objection is to the use of those terms - and in this narrow instance, you are right - I don't really care to learn, either. I'll happily remain blissfully ignorant as to why you think MOVE were not assholes.

[msanthrope]

25. Apartment House? Show's what you know.

It wasn't any apartment house--it was a two story residential house with a sniper's nest on top encircled by full gasoline drums. More than enough stupidity on both sides.....

[cestpaspossible]

27. OK, I take it back, lets just saying Im against burning children alive.

If you disagree with me, fine, but I think I am on pretty solid moral ground here.

[msanthrope]

34. Isn't everyone against burning children?

I mean, why the strawman?

I think we can all agree: burning children=bad.

But MOVE shares plenty of the responsibility for having children in such a situation.

Look, when you fortify your house with a sniper's nest and store gasoline on the roof, you can't claim shock when an armed standoff happens---in other words, MOVE went looking for trouble, and whined when they found it.

[cestpaspossible]

38. Obviously not since children were burned and that act is being excused.

I don't think that act was justified in any way whatsover, and you are welcome to pretend that you aren't trying to excuse it with statements like:

Look, when you fortify your house with a sniper's nest and store gasoline on the roof, you can't claim shock when an armed standoff happens---in other words, MOVE went looking for trouble, and whined when they found it.


And I will continue to condemn the murdering of children - if you aren't disagreeing that murdering children is wrong, then you aren't disagreeing with me, because that is my point and no other. (speaking of strawmen)

[Tomee450]

109. I don't buy your argument

To my knowledge the authorities have used bombs twice on African Americans, once in Philadelphia, the other in Tulsa, Oklahoma, when the black business district was burned to the ground after a someone said a white woman was attacked by a black man. I don't care how awful the group MOVE was it was wrong to drop bombs and kill innocent people.

[cestpaspossible]

6. Why do you call it an acronymif it doesn't stand for anything?

And why is there something wrong with having a name that isn't an acronym? Have you complained that 'moveon' isn't an acronym? Because it isn't.

[tinanator]

16. a nice neighborhood?

those monsters!

[psychopomp]

2. One of the most shameful acts of domestic terror

THEY DROPPED A BOMB on this apartment building!!! A disgusting, criminal act that barely caused a ripple in mainstream Raygun Amerikkka.

[alarimer]

12. I agree with you

The other people on this thread seem to think the police have the right to BOMB whomever they want. Gee, sounds like W. took page from the Philadelphia police handbook. If they are black (or brown) and radical we must bomb them.

[Skeptic_All]

44. It wasn't a bomb.........

It was a breaching device that unfortunately ignited an assload of trash, flammables and other materials that were on the roof. While I certainly agree this situation should have been handled in a more appropriate manner, it was not the intention of the Philadelphia Police Department to kill those poor children.

The outcry from the civilian community which surrounded this group was so great, the Mayor was under overwhelming pressure to do something to rid these people from the neighborhood. A classic example of trying to do too much, too soon.

[Tomee450]

113. The Philadelphia police

did not care. They were dealing with black people whose lives were not that important to the police. Do you think that action would have been taken had Move not been a black organization. The answer is NO. Furthermore, Philadelphia was known for its brutality against minorities. I believe at one time the police chief was Frank Rizzo who had a virulent hatred of African Americans. Rizzo toughness towards black people enabled him to be elected mayor. I doubt if you could find five black people in Philadelphia with anything good to say about him. The police did not care whether those people lived or died.

[msanthrope]

125. Yeah, that argument is great except for the fact that Rizzo wasn't

the mayor of Philadelphia then. It was Wilson Goode, an African-American. Who got reelected, too.

[Tomee450]

130. I know that.

My point was that Philadelphia police department is known for its mistreatment of black people. The culture of the Philadelphia police was virulent anti black. Frank Rizzo was the police chief for a long time and later became mayor. His was a reign of brutality against minorities. It was easy for the Philadelphia police to drop a bomb on black people since many in that department never valued the lives of black people anyway. Numerous claims of brutality have been lodged against the Philadelphia police department.

[cestpaspossible]

115. OK, it wasn't a bomb, and the dead kids are just 'collateral damage'

:eyes:

[modrepub]

15. Maybe

More to do with Rizzo (law and order Democrat) police force than anything else. It didn't help that MOVE wanted a confrontation. Guess the righties would support shooting at police trying to disarm you, but I wouldn't. The fire started after the police dropped a bomb to dislodge a bunker structure on the roof. This was after the Philly fire department blasted it with a water cannon. The bomb touched off a fire because MOVE decided to store gas in this bunker structure. The fire company was slow to try and put the fire out. They didn't try for about 20 minutes by then it was too late.

In my opinion both sides are to blame; when you decide on violent confrontation there is always the chance that things will get out of control. Wilson Good through away a good career by ceding too much control to the Philly police department.

[tinanator]

17. whoa, sounds like Waco

what sort of gas were they storing?

[modrepub]

18. Just cans of gas

maybe Kerosene. Who knows what they were doing with this. Maybe they were planning firebombs. I don't know. Good analogy, MOVE had a Koresh mentality for sure.

Found this this morning, any Philly types remember Beru Revue?

Be Careful Tonight - Beru Revue

Afro leaders are outside and they're bangin' down the door
All the MOVE's in prison or in Albany, New York
A little education is what our people need
Got to burn the place down so you and I can breathe

[tinanator]

20. I bet it was nerve gas or some other WMD

you know?

[Tomee450]

116. Totally disagree

The last thing the police should have done was use such an inflammatory device that could easily have caused great destruction and loss of life. They did it because they thought the people were expendable. No thought whatsoever given to the fact that there were children in that building. They died a horrible death. Yes, MOVE was disruptive but it was the police who decided to drop a bomb that killed the innocents. There actions just cannot be justified.

[modrepub]

173. My point

I don't condone the loss of life. Collateral damage is not acceptable under any circumstances. But MOVE wanted a confrontation. They had kids in that house and they chose to fight. They could have come out of that house at any point during the confrontation in my opinion and they didn't. That's insanity on their part. Did the police over react? Sure they did. Was the fire department negligent by letting the fire burn for half an hour before trying to put it out? Absolutely. Was Mayor Goode negligent for letting the Police Department control the scene? In my opinion yes he was. There's plenty of blame to spread around in this tragedy. That's war for you; it's a dirty business best to be avoided.

[Tomee450]

178. Attempting to deflect blame from

from the police onto MOVE just does not work. Yes, MOVE should have complied with the orders of the police. Despite their non compliance, the police, once they knew there were children in the building should have backed off and sought some other way to settle the matter.

[modrepub]

188. Response

It would have been nice if the police would have stood down. But most police are trained to use overwhelming force when confronted. I would hope most sane people would realize that and not seek a confrontation. I just think MOVE used poor judgment in this case.

A couple of hypotheticals for ya:

If you were armed with a gun and the police raided your house in a case of mistaken identity. Would you put up resistance if your family was with you?

Is it ok to use force against the government if you disagree with it?

Just hypotheticals but I'm interested in your answers. Mine would be no and no.

[chlamor]

181. Collateral Damage?

A term of the oppressor used to sanitize the brutality of the STATE. Who owns the language?

[seemslikeadream]

11. MOVE, supporters mark fatal '85 bombing

Published May 15, 2005


PHILADELPHIA, PENNSYLVANIA -- Under the watchful eyes of police and neighbors, the militant group MOVE marked the 20th anniversary Saturday of the police bombing that killed 11 members.

Group members and supporters gathered in West Philadelphia near the site where police dropped an explosive from a helicopter as they tried to evict armed MOVE members from a rowhouse. Officers then ordered firefighters to keep their distance as flames killed six adults and five children and destroyed 61 adjacent homes.

"We will never allow another May 13, 1985," MOVE supporter Orie Ross shouted through a bullhorn to about 75 people.

City officials promised to rebuild, but the new houses were defective and later condemned. Twenty-four families sued and were awarded $12.8 million.
more
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0505150211may15,1,3362979.story?coll=chi-newsnationworld-hed


At the rally, members called for the release of the "MOVE 9" those they said were wrongly convicted in the 1978 death of police officer James Ramp. Eight remain in prison; the ninth died of cancer in 1998.

Today, MOVE has a few dozen members, most of whom live in a pair of houses in Philadelphia's Kingsessing neighborhood. Other residents of the block describe them as good neighbors.

The group, which once preached against technology, now has a Web site. It describes itself as a revolutionary organization that believes in life, natural law and self defense but rejects the government and big business.

Neighbors watched Saturday's rally from their front stoops, some shaking their heads and eyeing the event suspiciously. Several declined to comment on the demonstration or the anniversary, saying they preferred to put it behind them.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=758273

[Barrett808]

19. Frank Rizzo: "I'm gonna make Attila the Hun look like a faggot" n/t

[Demit]

22. Oh, now that could be a whole other thread, Rizzo quotes!

Of Jacques Lipschutz's sculpture: "It looks like a plasterer dropped a load of plaster".

Or my personal fave, on before taking the lie detector test: "If this machine says a man lied, he lied."

Mr. nightstick-in-a-cummerbund. What a thug.

[whatelseisnew]

23. Update & Quote from Ramona

1985 bombing in Philadelphia still unsettled
By Martha T. Moore, USA TODAY
Posted 5/11/2005 10:23 PM     Updated 5/11/2005 10:52 PM
PHILADELPHIA — The last block of Osage Avenue is a half-abandoned and lonely place. Most of the houses on the narrow street are boarded up.
Two decades after their neighborhood burned to the ground two dozen families are in court trying to force the city to pay for their wrecked homes.
By George Widman, AP

The memory of the bungled decisions and bad judgment that led police to drop a satchel of explosives from a helicopter onto a residential neighborhood — and the horror that resulted — still stings.

A commission that investigated found that Goode and two other officials, police commissioner Gregore Sambor and fire commissioner William Richmond, had been "grossly negligent." The deaths of the MOVE children "appeared to be unjustified homicide," it said. Police had not taken them out of the house when they had the chance. They had used excessive force in firing 10,000 rounds of ammunition into the house. The plan to drop explosives was "reckless" and "unconscionable." And they let the fire burn until it was too late to control.

One of the two who escaped the fire, Ramona Africa, 49, spent seven years in prison for riot and conspiracy. Today, she earns her living speaking about MOVE and Mumia Abu-Jamal, a death-row inmate convicted in an unrelated 1981 killing of a police officer.

"I am angry, and bitter, and justifiably so," she says. "Not a single official went to prison for murdering my family," referring to the whole Africa clan. The bombing, she says, was "not bad judgment. That is murder."

[msanthrope]

24. What about John Gilbride, Ramona? That's murder, too. n/t

Murderous thug. The only people I have pity for is the children who died---children caught between the idiot city officials, and the adults in MOVE, who had no problem using them as political pawns.

[cestpaspossible]

29. Interesting timeline you have going

The events of May 13, 1985 are justified by the events of Sept. 26, 2002???

:wtf:

[msanthrope]

35. It's not a question of justification--that's fairly simplistic

moral relativism. One does not equal out, or cancel the other, but you knew that when you constructed this strawman.

You know people by their actions. MOVE is a violent, nasty organization who has no problem killing off people who cause them trouble. In this case, MOVE had no problem acting against a father seeking custody of his son.

Live by the sword, you die by the sword. And in this case, I don't have pity for anybody but the children involved--children used as political pawns by MOVE, and abused by the police.

[cestpaspossible]

37. You're right. It's just poor reasoning to mention Gilbride

in the context of this discussion, because the future is influenced by the events of the past not the other way around. The police murdered children and that act is in no way justified by something that happen almost two decades later.

I'll let others judge whether your comments are really fueled by pity or hatred.

[Tomee450]

117. Why are you bring up a murder that

occurred years later to which MOVe was not connected? That just does not make sense. The point is that the police killed young children. They dropped a bomb in a residential area on a home that contained children. There are plenty of nasty, violent people in the world. Do you believe that they should have bombs dropped on them? I don't think civilized people engage in such behavior. What the police did will live in infamy. It was simply horrible.

[msanthrope]

189. MOVE is not connected to the murder of John Gilbride?

Whatever Kool-aid you are drinking, I suggest you market it. Maybe I could drink some and forget the past five years of the Bush Administration.

[RobinA]

87. Don't Forget

Officer Ramp, shot by MOVE on the Powelton Village fiasco. Kids caught between two sets of idiots - tell me about it.

[msanthrope]

92. Right--and we are supposed

to forget the terror--the true terror that MOVE perpetrated on their own neighbors, and the firefighters they shot at...

I've always loved how MOVE claims that the Philly PD and/or the CIA are the ones who foment all this trouble in order to discredit MOVE. I wonder if it is the same CIA agents who hid the body of Holly Maddox in Ira Einhorn's apartment.

[Demit]

112. LOL! Ira "How did that get here?" Einhorn.

Why no, officer, I didn't notice any odor from a putrifying body in a trunk that turned out to be my girlfriend. Well, I think I'll go to France now.

[cestpaspossible]

114. That is related in some way to the murder of these children by the police?

perhaps you'd like to make the connection clearer to the rest of us.

[Demit]

151. No. It was a parenthetical remark.

On another subject, Ira Einhorn. Addressed to someone else. You're amazing.

[cestpaspossible]

163. Parenthetical - a different way of saying 'off-topic'

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=parenthetical

[cestpaspossible]

31. Murdering children is wrong

I never thought such an opinion would cause controversy on DU...

[Tomee450]

120. I'm not surprised

at these negative comments at all. Even on this forum, we find people who are always more accepting of the harsh treatment of African Americans than they would be if the victims were members of another ethnic group. After all, we have people who justify shooting of black youth who are running away from the police and no threat;they also justify the handcuffing of a five year old black children. Unfortunately, even among people who say they are liberal or progressive we find acceptance of the brutal treatment of African Americans.

[Mandate My Ass]

122. tweedle dum and tweedle dee

Nobody has said any such thing but go on thumping your chest and pontificating from your soapboxes since it makes you feel so superior. Nobody justified the brutal treatment of minorities, we just provided some much-needed background on what led up to this tragedy.

You also should refer to the definition of the logical fallacy of hasty generalization in post #101 since you offer a particularly egregious example of it in your post.

[msanthrope]

129. Well, Mandate, don't you understand?

In the black and white world that is reality, we must choose one side or another--and let's not critique an organization of minorities--well-armed monorities that were terrorizing their minority neighbors with their threats, destruction and behavior.

[Mandate My Ass]

132. Good point

The minority mayor who made the decision to bomb the minority militants came at the behest of the terrorized minority community but I understand now that I am a total racist because I critiqued MOVE's illegal actions leading up to the confrontation.

Also, I now am an official spokesperson for child incineration. :eyes:

[msanthrope]

135. Right, because it's not racist at all

to essentially infantilize MOVE as poor, misguided minority souls just trying to buck society, live peacefully as naturists, and getting the short end of the stick.

I mean, why see them for what they are? Murderous thugs, completely rationally capable of moral thought and choice. The MOVE members chose their fates, and chose to use violence.

I guess it's more romantic the other way.....

[Tomee450]

154. Utter rubbish

Who is romanticizing MOVE? It seems more that some are trying to romanticize the police. For crying out loud, they dropped a bomb knowing that children were in the building. They incinerated helpless children. Whether or not MOVE was an organization of thugs is besides the point. You think it is acceptable for the police, knowing that young children are in a building, to drop a bomb an kill them? Unbelievable, such lack of caring for human life. Those kids had done nothing. Why should they have had to die? Even some of the neighbors who had wanted actions taken against move were utterly appalled at what the police did.

[Tomee450]

152. And the minority mayor

apologized for his actions. Being a bad neighbor is no reason for murder. And it was murder since the police knew the children were in the house but dropped the bomb anyway. You can spin all you wish but the fact are clear. And yes there are people who appear to be racist when they attempt to excuse police brutality applied against minorities. Members of MOVE did not kill those children, the police did and they did not have to do so. The commission called the action of the police homicide. Of course you will continue to dismiss the findings of the commission.

[Mandate My Ass]

153. being a bad neighbor is no reason for murder

A bad neighbor is someone who plays his stereo too loud at 1:00 AM during the work week.

Once again, MOVE was openly flouting the law and terrorizing their neighborhood.

Stoke up that hate, man. It feels really good to call others racists because they don't find 100% blamelessness with regard to the behavior of the openly confrontational adult MOVE members.

THe mayor did the right thing to apologize, but it was his decision to do what was done that day, not anybody here and despite your repeated protestations to the contrary, nobody here is condoning bombing a house with children inside.

[Tomee450]

161. Nonsense

you are engaging in the demonetization of MOVE to make it appear that there was some justification for the acts of the police. There was none. Once they knew the children were there they should not have proceeded as they did. The adults in the organization may have been horrible, the children were not. They should have been spared such a horrible fate. The Philadelphia police department has a terrible history of mistreatment of black people. They did not care about those children.

[cestpaspossible]

133. No need to choose sides. Nor is there a need for false equivalency.

There's nothing inconsistent with both comdemning shouting through a bullhorn to all hours of the night and condemning the incineration of innocent children, but that doesn't mean we need to pretend that both actions are equally immoral.

[Tomee450]

150. One can

criticize the actions of minorities, but one should not attempt to excuse the murder of minority children by saying the actions of their parents were partly responsible. You can spin, spin , spin, but it won't work. The police knew the children were there, the commission investigation proved that. Yet, despite that knowledge, they dropped a bomb on a home an incinerated innocent children. Your criticism and that of others is simply and attempt to justify a terrible wrongdoing by the police. Nothing you say can say absolves the police of the brutality perpetrated against innocent children. They did not deserved that horrible death.

[Tomee450]

140. Your response is not surprising..

One would not be surprised to see such comments coming from someone who tries to find excuses for the horrible actions taken by the police against defenseless children. Your so called "background" was just an attempt to make the actions of the police seem understandable and less horrific. You failed. There was no excuse for what they did, it was a barbaric act by people who cared nothing about the lives of the innocent.

[cestpaspossible]

124. I'm not sure that it is strictly

a matter of racism, although I would not argue that it is not a factor... there is an institutional bias in most people in favor of the police, and in any confrontation between a cop and a citizen, most people automatically give the benefit of the doubt to the cop... Lord Acton's words are memorized but not understood by most schoolchildren.

[makhno]

26. Although MOVE sounds like a sad bunch of assholes ...

... what the fuck kind of justification can there be in using explosives on a densely populated city block?

Why did both the bomb squad and the MOVE survivor refuse to testify in front of the commission? The stuff of conspiracy theories, that.

[Demit]

32. Of course murdering children is wrong

But that is not what the police set out to do. That morning, they set out to serve warrants on several MOVE members, that's all. They were fired on from the house. Every time they tried entry into the house they were fired upon. They called on MOVE to send the children out. MOVE refused. MOVE refused to send their children out.

Of course bombing people is wrong. But that is not what the police set out to do. They set out to destroy the bunker on the roof so that it would collapse into the house so that the people would be forced to finally come out. They were going for a controlled burn. If it had been successful, it would have been a good idea. But it went wrong. The explosives used were the wrong type. MOVE had stored gasoline in the bunker. Even as the fire was spreading, MOVE refused to come out, still refused to send the children out. Two people did come out, a woman and a young boy, but the rest refused.

This was a series of events involving a lot of reckless behavior and stupid decisions that culminated in tragedy. It shows what can happen when two groups are in confrontation and neither will back down. But it is not a story of deliberate murder.

[psychopomp]

33. I'm not going to argue with you

"Of course bombing people is wrong. But that is not what the police set out to do. They set out to destroy the bunker on the roof so that it would collapse into the house so that the people would be forced to finally come out...it is not a story of deliberate murder."

I'm just going to call bs on your representation of the events of that day.

[cestpaspossible]

40. Your revisionist history attempt to excuse the inexcusable

sickens me.

A commission that investigated found that Goode and two other officials, police commissioner Gregore Sambor and fire commissioner William Richmond, had been "grossly negligent." The deaths of the MOVE children "appeared to be unjustified homicide," it said. Police had not taken them out of the house when they had the chance. They had used excessive force in firing 10,000 rounds of ammunition into the house. The plan to drop explosives was "reckless" and "unconscionable." And they let the fire burn until it was too late to control.

Sambor resigned six months later. Richmond retired in 1988. Goode apologized tearfully on TV and was re-elected in 1988.

"Everybody was shouting at the television set, 'Put out the fire!' " says Carl Singley, a lawyer who was counsel to the MOVE commission.

That five children died, huddled in the basement of the MOVE house, brings tears to his eyes. "I imagine those last hours down in the basement," he says.
link

yes folks, you read that right, Philadelphia reelected this child killer after he 'apologized'. I wonder how the folks trying to defend the actions of the police in this thread voted?

[enough already]

83. Frank Rizzo was Goode's opponent in that general election

Which way would YOU have voted?

[cestpaspossible]

98. I wouldn't vote for a child killer

but that in no way implies that I would vote for the child killers opponent.

[Demit]

118. Actually I voted against him.

I thought he should have resigned in disgrace after MOVE. He came out that night and said I take full responsibility, then spent the next months backpedaling and making excuses, including the absurd claim that he thought the firemen were battling the flames, but that turned out to be "snow on his tv set". He was weak, and passive, and altogether lacking in leadership.

The black community stood foursquare behind him, in the belief that Philadelphia's first black mayor could not be allowed to be tainted with MOVE, and must be supported for reelection. I thought that was wrong. But it was a political decision on their part, much like those situations when dead men remain on the ballot and win. I was active in politics at the time, and trust me that many of the people supporting him were holding their noses to do it.

Although I reject your premise that I am defending the police, I answered your question because I thought you might be interested in (one person's, anyway) answer.

[cestpaspossible]

121. Not voting for Goode was the right choice.

However, I didn't enter this discussion with a 'premise' that you are defending the police, rather, that is my observation based on the comments you've posted.

The meanings of words matters.

[Freddie Stubbs]

86. How do you do a 'controlled burn' on a row house?

:shrug:

[LostinVA]

36. I grew up very close to where the MOVE incident happened

And basically this is what happened:

1.) MOVE broke health and disturbance laws, and continuously harassed their neighbors. They were basically kinda nuts.
2.) Their neighbors complained and complained and complained, and nothing was done. Gosh, they were black and in a black neighbor.
3.) FINALLY the cops did something, when they discovered eh bunker.
4.) Their idiotic solution was to FIRE BOMB AND INHABITED CITY BLOCK.
5.) Chaos ensued, and lots of building were burned down.

The bottom line: MOVE needed to be held to the same laws as their law-abiding neighbors -- they weren't out ion the country in a commune, they were literally living in filth which was dangerous for their children and neighbors, and were really harassing their neighbors. Firebombing them was NOT the right solution. I greatly respect Alice Walker, but she is wrong here.

[Mandate My Ass]

41. I grew up nearby too

MOVE members said they wanted to live close to nature. They were generously offered a large parcel of land by a person who wanted them to be able to live their lifestyle without without ruining the quality of life of everyone who lived around them. These neighbors didn't want MOVE's lifestyle forced on them: the filth & stench, the patrolling the roofs with guns, the health hazards, the late night obscene bullhorn tirades.

MOVE refused the offer.

Several times on May 13th they turned down repeated requests to let the children leave the house peacefully, knowing a violent confrontation was imminent.

I still don't condone the bombing, but MOVE shares part of the blame for escalating the violence, not only that day, but over the course of years.

[cestpaspossible]

43. If these facts about MOVE are not meant to excuse the police action

why are they being repeated ad nauseum?

[Mandate My Ass]

45. Probably for the same reason you repeat ad nauseum

if you're not for MOVE, you're for child incineration.

[cestpaspossible]

47. Except I never said any such thing.

I'm against the bombing and murder of children.

Period.

[Redstone]

48. They could have sent those kids out. They had plenty of opportunities

to do so.

But they didn't.

Redstone

[cestpaspossible]

51. I guess someone could read your post and pretend it's not a defense

of the police action.

Not me.

[Redstone]

59. Shared responsibility. What the cops did was wrong, and also

when people provoke a situation in which there is likely to be gunfire, and do so deliberately, and equally deliberately place children in the line of fire, they are responsible as well.

My last words on the subject. You may misread them as you wish.

Redstone

[chlamor]

60. What about a totally dysfunctional violent culture

It's the criminally insane society that creates reactionaries. Context.

The police do not serve me.

The police do not serve you.

They are not there to serve and protect.

They are not there to uphold law and order.

The police are not agents of the people.

They are agents of power.

_________________________________
We live in country of 1984, Fahrenheit 451, etc...

[cestpaspossible]

74. I'm afraid that the all-encompassing propaganda we are fed from birth

to obey and conform, is too powerful to be countered with mere rhetoric. Until someone has been the victim of out of control police power, they usually just don't get it.

[chlamor]

78. Those who never stray too far from the peg

don't know just how short the leash is.
highest prison population-educational incarceration aka compulsory education-largest military in world-societal depression-IT'S ALL CONNECTED.

How is it possible that this cannot be seen? As long as the focus can be maintained on a 'reactionary group' or an 'individual failure', i.e.Welfare Queen, the pathological culture is off the hook as the true culprit.

[RobinA]

89. What Are You Talking About?

The neighborhood was screaming bloody murder for officials, i.e. police, to do something about MOVE. They did not do what The People wanted for quite a long time, probably because it was pretty hard to figure out a solution to the problem that wouldn't end in just the sort of disaster this mess did end in. It was pretty obvious in the morning, as I was driving to work and listening to reports of the beginnings of this seige, that it was going to end in disaster, it was only a matter of who was going was going to precipitate it.

[chlamor]

176. What I am talking about

is looking into DEEP reasons and not just the individual situation.

Why not bomb suburbia? Because that toxic and ecologically DEVASTATING lifestyle has been normalized. And don't even say I defend MOVE.

Our culture is SO SICK-TO THE CORE that it is amazing there aren't a thousand examples per day of people coming unhinged, of course the TV and anti-depressants keeps folks from acting up.

It is not MOVE-It is not THE WEATHER UNDERGROUND-It is not THE BLACK PANTHERS-It is not THE ANARCHIST THAT THROWS A BRICK THROUGH THE WINDOW-It is not THE HIGH SCHOOL CHILD WHO OPENS FIRE ON THE STUDENT BODY-It is not FILL IN THE ENDLESS BLANKS that is the problem these are symptoms. It is the psychotic culture of DEATH that you must look at or you will always look in the wrong direction. That is my point!

[cestpaspossible]

65. We can either believe the commission that investigated, or you.

The deaths of the MOVE children "appeared to be unjustified homicide," it said. Police had not taken them out of the house when they had the chance.

[Tomee450]

123. So what if they

did not send them out. Perhaps they never believed that a police department would actually drop a bomb on a building in which there were young children. Even if MOVE was barbaric, should the police have also behaved similarly? We expect more of law enforcement. We expect them to honor life, especially the life of the defenseless. By your logic, if one sees a parent kicking his child, it's OK for another to walk over and kick him too. Decent people try to protect children, not harm them.

[Mandate My Ass]

49. Yes, you did

"An invalid, morally reprehensible defense, but a defense nevertheless."

[cestpaspossible]

50. You are welcome to assert that A = B, but your post is utterly false

I never ever claimed that anyone should be FOR MOVE. I do condemn the killing of innocent children and I find the defense of the killing of children in this thread to be invalid, and morally reprehensible.

[Mandate My Ass]

52. NOBODY DEFENDED KILLING CHILDREN

Is English a second or third language for you?

I've read this thread several times and all people have asserted here was that MOVE provoked a confrontation that turned deadly for themselves and the children they refused to release so that no harm would come to them.

The bomb wasn't even a traditional bomb, it was an incendiary device that would not have caused the conflagration if there had not been gasoline on the roof. It was only considered after a daylong standoff in which police tried by several other methods to gain entry to the house.

You remain willfully ignorant of the facts in this case so you can heap moral outrage and self-righteous indignation on anybody who doesn't put the full blame on the police and city officials.

Whatever. :nopity:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

53. To put it more simply..MOVE was nuts, but we expect better from

law enforcement. :D (not disagreeing with your posts, my friend :hi:)

[cestpaspossible]

55. Yeah. A lot better.

[psychopomp]

56. That is an oversimplification

MOVE was a reaction to an insane, unjust society that saw the black power movement crushed violently by the FBI and local law enforcement and the war on African Americans continued unabated.

I am not saying that we cannot critically judge MOVE for what went down, but context is everything. We certainly can put this in the larger context of the ongoing "cold war" on African Americans in this country.

[chlamor]

58. I posted this

in my first response to the OP-"As always the context is to be the center from which we observe the singularity lest our assertions and calculations go astray from the start."

You posted this-"MOVE was a reaction to an insane, unjust society that saw the black power movement crushed violently by the FBI and local law enforcement and the war on African Americans continued unabated."

Reading through all the posts in this thread I found it disturbing that the historical and contextual basis from which MOVE and any other reactionary groups brought into being by the 'insane, unjust society" was not taken into consideration for the most part. MOVE was a bit cultish in my view and obnoxious to a high degree but from what does this arise?

Peace

[RobinA]

93. The City Officials

aren't sociologists, they are hired to run a city. MOVE was a disaster in their neighborhood, and their black neighbors were screaming for help. In fact, one of the claims by angry neighbors at the time was that if MOVE had set up shop in a white neighborhood, things would have been dealt with a lot sooner.

Whatever MOVE was a reaction to, it's not relevant for mayors and police commissioners who are expected to keep peace, plow the streets and pick up the trash.

[cestpaspossible]

100. What about the responsibility of city officials to not burn kids alive?

Do you consider that responsiblity as important as the responsibility to plow the streets?

[RobinA]

187. You Missed My Point n/t

*

[Mandate My Ass]

61. True

The bomb was a terrible choice, even as a last resort. Letting the fire burn was unconscionable. Under Rizzo, a proud and open racist, a lot of these tensions fomented to the point of no return.

But MOVE used their kids as human shields. No parent should provoke violence and then force their children's involvement in the hopes that the police won't retaliate.

There is plenty wrong with what went on that day and both parties share some of the responsibility.

[cestpaspossible]

63. According to the commission,

Police had not taken them out of the house when they had the chance

So we can either believe the commission, or you.

[Mandate My Ass]

64. and their parents wouldn't let them out when they had the chance

:shrug:

[cestpaspossible]

67. Like I said, your assertions are contradicted by the commission report.

[psychopomp]

190. Just speculating here

but perhaps they saw giving their children up to the shitstem they were fighting just as throwing their kids to wolves...they would have lost custody and the kids would have become wards of the state.

[Hobo]

69. First let's correct a few factual inaccuracies

Frank Rizzo was not the mayor during this period. W. Wilson Goode was mayor, and for those of you who care about such things, he was and I think still is a black man.

The reason the fire burned is the MOVE memebers were shooting at the fireman trying to douse the flames.



It seems to me the same people who defend MOVE are the same people who defend Cop killer Mumia.

Just my opinion

Hobo

:beer:

[Mandate My Ass]

71. I know who was mayor at the time of the 1985 bombing

The MOVE/police confrontations began in the 1970's under Frank Rizzo.

I hope Mumia rots in jail forever.

[cestpaspossible]

72. Does your claim have any basis in fact?

The reason the fire burned is the MOVE memebers were shooting at the fireman trying to douse the flames.

That's not what the published reports say

You ARE entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts.

[Hobo]

82. A published report that was written 4 days ago........

There is a basis of fact for you. :sarcasm:


Hobo

:beer:

[cestpaspossible]

94. IOW, no.

Post a link, citation or reference to support your claim, or the inescapable conclusion is that it is bullshit.

[enough already]

76. Rizzo was long gone before this heated up

Bill Green looked the other way before Goode was forced by the neighbors to finally "do something".

[Tomee450]

136. Don't try to pass

the responsibility for what happened on that day to MOVE. It was the decision of the city official to drop that bomb. They knew there were children in that house yet they burned it anyway. That action in no way could be laid at the feet of MOVE. It would be far different if they had not been aware that the children were there. They were aware, they dropped the bomb because they did not care. We expect law enforcement to go the extra mile to prevent the loss of innocent lives. That was not done in the case of MOVE.

[cestpaspossible]

54. I don't agree with you; in fact the post I'm replying to

includes this statement:

The bomb wasn't even a traditional bomb, it was an incendiary device that would not have caused the conflagration if there had not been gasoline on the roof. It was only considered after a daylong standoff in which police tried by several other methods to gain entry to the house.

Clearly meant to make the police appear less culpable, imho.

The commission report declared the killing of the children appeared to be an unjustified homicide. I'll stick with that interpretation of the events.

[Mandate My Ass]

62. I'm not asking for your agreement

so your withholding it is quite meaningless, as is your opinion in this matter since you refuse to educate yourself.

Using one's children as human shields is as abominable a choice as the police dropping a bomb on the house.

[cestpaspossible]

66. According to the commission, the cops could have taken the kids out

but they murdered them instead.
http://p123.news.scd.yahoo.com/s/usatoday/20050512/ts_usatoday/1985bombinginphiladelphiastillunsettled

You can defend those murders, you can try to excuse them, you can try to shift the blame to the victims, but the fact is that the police brutally murdered those children.

[Mandate My Ass]

68. I neither defend nor excuse them - nor has anyone else

You have contributed nothing to this thread but baseless accusations and putting words in people's mouths.

[cestpaspossible]

70. I think killing children is wrong. I don't thing anything justifies

the actions of the police. The idea that the mayor who approved this was reelected truly saddens me - a black mark on democracy.

[tinanator]

57. and our tax dollars go towards unlawful land mine practices

this shit has to stop.

[Tomee450]

119. Oh please

Some individuals are posting negative comments about MOVE to make the action taken by the police understandable. MOVE brought itself seems to be the sentiment. I say baloney. The police had all the power and they used it violently. Why are you ignoring the findings of the committee which blamed the mayor and others and which says the police failed to move the children out when they had the opportunity. They said the children's death appeared to be homicide. Also, the fire department failed to put the fire out but let the people burn to death. How anyone can try to equate the actions of MOVE as justifying the dropping of bombs in a residential area,the killing of children, is beyond me.

[cestpaspossible]

126. Post #77 explains it

it's about HATE.

[msanthrope]

131. Now you want to blame the Fire Department? Now I know you

don't know what you are talking about.

Perhaps the Fire Department was hesitant to repeat what happened the last time they tried to put a MOVE fire out--they got shot at, by MOVE.

Remember Powellton Village? Those of us who live here do. And I bet you don't.

[Tomee450]

155. Spin, Spin, Spin

Excuses, Excuses, Excuses.

The police dropped a bomb knowing children were in the house. The children were incinerated. Can't spin that no matter how hard you try.

[RobinA]

88. I Think People

are trying to inject some gray into your black and white world.

[cestpaspossible]

95. Perhaps you'd like to describe the gray area in your moral map

that justifies the actions of the police on that day.

[RobinA]

177. The Gray Area

in this case was that the police were trying to alleviate a situation that could have resulted in - the deaths of children and adults. MOVE had a bunker, lots of stored gasoline, and guns. They were nuts. Throughout history, the authorities get nervous when people known not to adhere to basic rules of civilized behavior stockpile explosive stuff. The thinking at the time was that the place could have gone up at any moment and taken the block with it. The police tried to do their job and solve a very bad situation and they made what in hindsight were huge mistakes. That's the gray.

I'm curious as to how you handle these "somebody could get hurt/killed/shot/blown-up no matter what I do, and I have to do something NOW" situations at your job?

[Tomee450]

179. Do you think that MOVE is the

only organization ever to threaten to do violence? The answer is NO. Why then haven't bombs been dropped in those other cases. I've heard experts on hostage situations say you wait the people out. Sometimes you cut off their gas, electric, water. Many times I've heard of people being taken hostage and threatened with death by their captors. No one bombed the place where they were being held. There was fear that drastic action would result in the death of the hostage and others. Why was the likelihood of something happening to the children who were really hostages in a way, discounted? There was no gray here. The children were there in the home. Knowing that, the police should have tried a different approach. The last thing they should have done was bomb the place. The Phildelphia police did to those children what the Klan did to four other black youngsters in Birmingham, Alabama.

[cestpaspossible]

183. so an immoral act is not as bad if it is labelled a 'mistake'?

I see. The fact that the authorities 'got nervous' made their conscious decision to kill children not simply wrong, but partly right...ok

I'm curious as to how you handle these "somebody could get hurt/killed/shot/blown-up no matter what I do, and I have to do something NOW" situations at your job?

Why couldn't they wait? Why did they have to do something right then?

[RobinA]

186. I Think That

in order for something to be an "immoral act" there has to be a certain amount of intent, as opposed to a "stupid act" or a "mistake" which this was. I can't label every screw-up that ends in disaster, no matter how heinous, an "immoral act."

They waited for quite a very long time, actually. This situation was going to blow, one way or another. Had authorities NOT done something, when MOVE shot somebody else, or when the bunker blew up on its own, or had the neighbors decided to take matters into their own hands, and people had gotten killed, then the cry would be how immorally and criminally negligent the city had been in not doing anything.

[Demit]

106. Thank you! That's exactly it.

Those of us who were here that day, & knew the years of history that preceded it, realize that it is not so easy to judge.

[cestpaspossible]

111. Perhaps you'd like to describe the gray area in your moral map

that justifies the actions of the police on that day.


Since the other poster seems unwilling to do so.

[Demit]

146. That's YOUR frame, "justifying the police actions", "defending the police"

And it's a false premise. You apparently are a philosophical absolutist, and presumably don't believe in concepts such as contributory negligence or mitigating factors or extenuating circumstances or any kind of complexity at all. There are evidently no accidents in your world, nor any possibility of one thing leading to another, and things never spiral out of control.

Your first post summed up the MOVE debacle with the sarcastic "Jogging on roofs is certainly a crime deserving of the death penalty." Your second post restated it as "One of my neighbors is a real asshole. Maybe I can convince the government to kill him for me." You certainly had a point of view, but, curiously, it wasn't until later that it evolved into "murdering children is wrong". Despite your pious claim that that was ever your only point.

This thread has gone on a long time, inflated greatly by your insistence that you are morally right. There's plenty to debate on the subject of the MOVE debacle, but your approach is entirely wrong.

[cestpaspossible]

165. Yeah, it's a frame called morality. It is immoral to incinerate children.

You can reject that frame, fine.

[Tomee450]

134. How absurd.

Some deeds are just plain wrong. There is no gray. The police knew there were children in that house, they dropped the bomb anyway and killed them. Where is the gray? There is none. There are just some things that are not done in a civilized society. Nothing, absolutely nothing, justified the incineration of innocent, helpless, children.

[Voltaire]

77. I still lived in Philly for Powelton Village

and while living in Scotland turned on the BBC one night to see the steet where some of my relatives lived in flames. I am with everyone here in saying while I HATE the Philadelphia Police, I hated MOVE that much more. There are no clean hands in that one and it will forever be a stain on my hometown.

[cestpaspossible]

80. Thnks for finally stating what the apogists posts in this thread are about

HATE.

while I HATE the Philadelphia Police, I hated MOVE that much more.

As this thread indicates, many folks are consumed by hate.

[Mandate My Ass]

81. Wow, what a giant leap of illogic

You really like that broad brush, doncha?

[cestpaspossible]

91. Would you care to expand on your view?

the other poster confessed to feeling hate for both sides. I made the observation that many dicussing the topic seem to me to be consumed by hate.

Would you care to point out the 'leap of illogic'? Thanks in advance.

[Mandate My Ass]

97. well it would be riiiiiiiiiighht

HERE:

"As this thread indicates, many folks are consumed by hate."

And then we had this oh so lovely backpedal:

"I made the observation that many dicussing the topic seem to me to be consumed by hate."


That's some sharp critical analysis right there. :eyes:

[cestpaspossible]

99. You skipped the part where you were supposed to show

the 'leap of illogic'. Simply reposting my posts in which I twice stated the exact same opinion, while perhaps flattering to me, does not in any way refute that opinion.

[Mandate My Ass]

101. Wow! 1st it was a fact, now it's an opinion, but you can't see where

the illogic is. Hmmm, I'm going to have to make this very simple so here:


Fallacy: Hasty Generalization
Also Known as: Fallacy of Insufficient Statistics, Fallacy of Insufficient Sample, Leaping to A Conclusion, Hasty Induction.

Description of Hasty Generalization
This fallacy is committed when a person draws a conclusion about a population based on a sample that is not large enough. It has the following form:


Sample S, which is too small, is taken from population P.
Conclusion C is drawn about Population P based on S.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/hasty-generalization.html

"As this thread indicates, many folks are consumed by hate."

And you're stating that the above statement of fact(sic) is the exact same as this?

I made the observation that many dicussing the topic seem to me to be consumed by hate."

[cestpaspossible]

102. No it was always my opinion, and it still is.

the poster expressed his hatred outright, but the responses in this thread indicate that he is not alone in his feelings.

Now does that fact that I did not label this with a large neon sign saying "THIS IS MY OPINION" mean that I've committed some logical error? Of course not. lol

[Mandate My Ass]

103. LOL

Such contortions! :crazy: It must be very tiring spinning like a top all the time.

[cestpaspossible]

104. I stand by my belief that the police were wrong to incinerate those kids

and I further believe that there is a lot of hate fueling those who find such a belief so offensive, that it must be countered by excuses like 'it wasn't a bomb' or 'what about Gilbride's murder 17 years later?'

[Mandate My Ass]

108. It must be *so* lonely

being the only person here who doesn't believe in burning children alive. It's heartbreaking, really it is.

[cestpaspossible]

110. I think it was wrong to incinerate these particular innocent children.

And I don't care whether that is a popular sentiment or not.

[Tomee450]

128. I couldn't agree with you more.

Those people died horrible deaths.

[Tomee450]

127. I disagree with you.

There is a lot of hatred revealed in some of the comments. It's quite sad to see people trying to make it appear that the actions of the police were justified. Just because someone is the object of disgust is no reason for them to be murdered. Yes, MOVE was an undesirable neighbor but their behavior in no way justified their destruction. The police did not care about those people, including the children. And Philadelphia police is known for their harsh treatment of African Americans.

[Mandate My Ass]

137. Whatever

You see hatred because that's what you want to see because then you can feel superior and not have to think.

Nobody justified anything and calling MOVE an undesirable neighbor is quite an understatement. They were armed and dangerous and in a prior confrontation had shot and killed a police officer.

[cestpaspossible]

138. The children that were incinerated shot and killed a police officer?

[Mandate My Ass]

139. No, the people who were using them as human shields did

[cestpaspossible]

141. The commission reported the police had the chance to get the kids out

and chose not to.

You seem to be spinning this as a hostage situation, which looks inaccurate based on the commisison's findings, but even in a hostage situation, the correct law enforcement response is not to kill the hostages.

[Mandate My Ass]

142. The parents of the kids had several chances to get them out

and refused to do so because it was more important to them to use them as shields than to place them out of harm's way as any moral parent would do.

You're the one doing all the spinning as you obviously know nothing of the background of this situation that was years in the making.

[cestpaspossible]

143. That's what you say, but the commission says otherwise.

And frankly, even if a hostage taker won't voluntarily give up a hostage, the correct response from law enforcement is not to kill the hostage.

[Tomee450]

145. But some people do not

care about the truth. They just want to excuse the inexcusable. Notice the complete rejection of the commission's report?

[Demit]

171. Do a little research on that commission report, and you'll get

an understanding of why it hardly is worth mentioning. It was designed to be a whitewash. It wasn't considered credible. Here, from a Free Mumia site:

"...When Philadelphia's first black Mayor Wilson Goode did come around to the realization that a significant portion of his constituents were not as accepting of the use of bombs as a means of pursuing public policy as he and his handlers would have hoped, he impaneled a commission to whitewash the event and, in effect, blame the victims. The "MOVE" Commission, as it came to be called, had no powers to bring indictments, pursue prosecution, and even lacked subpoena powers. The fact that the mayor himself handpicked the members of the commission was nothing short of scandalous, and the fact that this commission was throughly devoid of any real power seems to illustrate quite conclusively what critics of the commission process had been asserting. And that was that the commission was nothing more than a clever subterfuge that was designed to cover the mess that the city had made of the MOVE conflict. Even the fact that the tribunal was dubbed the "MOVE Commission" seems to serve the interest of authorities in their work of deflection. By shifting the focus from the actions of the city to the actions of the members of MOVE the victims became the assailants and the assailants became the victims. ..."


http://www.mumia.org/freedom.now/article.php?sid=444&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0

[cestpaspossible]

172. An odd argument

you say to discount the commission's report's condemnation of the actions of the police and city officials because it was designed to be a whitewash of the actions of the police and city officials? So they tried to whitewash it, but the facts were to compelling to allow a whitewash, so we should discount it?

:eyes:

[Demit]

174. But, cestpaspossible, I'm not making any argument here.

I'm showing you--well, actually I was answering Tomee450, but I know now to include you in every exchange--I'm showing that even the people most in sympathy with MOVE--the Free Mumia Now people--saw the commission as a sham. Tomee450 was wondering why there was a "complete rejection" of their report here, and I was helping him understand why. Wherever you and he were at the time, I doubt if you followed this story as closely as we in Philadelphia did. I doubt if they televised the hearings every day where you were. The commission was not then, and isn't now, considered the authority on what really happened.

There was also a grand jury convened in 1988. Some of their findings differed from what the commission said. What you in your certainty call "facts" are not at all clear as such, even to the people who were most in a position to study them.

Now I know how you will answer this post: "murdering children is wrong". To so many of us in Philadelphia, and to anyone still following this thread, this is a Rashomon story. To you there is only one thing that needs to be said (well, after you abandoned the joggers and asshole themes) and you have said it over and over. Enough. I'm tired of your baiting.

[cestpaspossible]

175. I totally agree that you don't have a coherent argument.

Yes, it is true that you are just posting stuff - almost at random - without forming a rational argument. That actually was my point. At least I had one.


As for your faith in the credibility of www.mumia.org, I'll let that speak for itself.

[Mandate My Ass]

149. I was here that day and I remember it well

and for the one thousandth time, nobody condones killing the children.

[cestpaspossible]

162. Were you a participant or did you just hear about it on the news

like the rest of us?

[Tomee450]

147. Baloney

The MOVE incident has been much discussed. Just because parents don't care about their children does not mean other adults should not. Your attitude is very callous. Law enforcement is supposed to exercise good judgment, is supposed to be fair and unbiased. That was not the case with the Philadelphia police department. I don't care if the parents refused to send the children out, the fact that the police knew they were in the house should have been enough for them to abort the operation. They just did not value the lives of those black children.

[Tomee450]

144. No, I see hatred

where it exists and it does exist in some of these posts. Don't tell me, and African American about racism and hatred. I know it when I see it. There are some individuals who will always side with people who have harmed blacks and will turn somersaults to justify such brutality. I don't care how horrible MOVE was nothing justified the actions taken by the police, nothing. The alleged killing of a policemen by members of the group still was no reason to kill innocent children. It's quite unfortunate that some people think otherwise, that they care so little about human life. But then, members of MOVE were black and for some, that's a different story.

[Mandate My Ass]

148. So because you're African American and I disagree I'm a racist?

Funny, because the African American community that had to put up with the dangers posed by MOVE's illegal behavior and unhealthy squalor said it was racism that the mayor and PD took so long to do something about getting MOVE out of their neighborhood. They said it would not have been allowed to go on for so long in a white neighborhood.

I said and I repeat, you are seeing what you want to see.

Oh and it wasn't an alleged killing, Officer Ramp is still dead FWIW.

[Tomee450]

156. I've experienced

enough racism in my life to know it when I see it. I think attempts to make the actions of the police in the MOVE case seem less egregious is simply appalling. MOVE could have been a terrible neighbor, their members thugs, but the plain fact is that the children were none of that and they did not deserve to die. Your demonetization of MOVE does not change that fact. For some people, the degree of outrage over police brutality depends on the race of the victim. That is not the case with me. I would be just as appalled had this been done to a white group. To me life is sacred and I expect law enforcement to value life, not be all to willing to take it.

Yes, the neighbors did want something done about MOVE but they were very upset over how the police handled this situation.

[Demit]

157. Not all of them. Here is what Milton Williams said:

"It was well worth it, because they're out. We'll be back and we'll be a community again, without MOVE." -- Milton Williams, MOVE neighbor, in the aftermath of the disaster.

http://www.philly.com/mld/dailynews/news/local/11577511.htm


That link has more interesting quotes. Like

"Attention, MOVE. This is America. You have to abide by the laws of the United States."
--Police Commissioner Gregore J. Sambor, on the morning of the fatal confrontation, telling MOVE over a bullhorn it had 15 minutes to leave the house on Osage Avenue.

"We've been waiting 17 years for this. Come and get us. We ain't got a m-----f------ thing to lose, so come on down and get us." --MOVE's retort to Sambor, over a loudspeaker on the house.

[msanthrope]

158. "Come and get us."

Of course, we shouldn't hold the parents of these children accountable, should we, for engaging in such reckless behavior.

No, it's all black and white, and everyone on this thread is just so happy that children got burned up.....(sarcasm)

[Tomee450]

166. You can continue

to spin but it just doesn't work for people who care about human life. The deaths of those children could have been avoided. That bomb did not have to be dropped. The police did so knowing that the children were there. Yes, there are sometimes shades of gray, but not in this case. The bottom line is that the police were wrong to kill children. They should have opted to save, not take lives, especially lives of the innocent. It's rather sad that you can't see that.

[Tomee450]

159. If that quote is correct,

Mr. Williams is an exception. I suspect if you asked any of those neighbors if having MOVE out was worth the lives of those young children,the answer would be no. I have relatives who live in Philadelphia and I have never heard any of them comment that they or any other members of the black community were supportive of the actions of the police. People were very sympathetic to MOVE's neighbors but not supportive of the way the police handled the situation. But even if the neighbors were supportive, did that make the actions justifiable? I think not. And I will also add that even though the members refused to comply with police orders, the police should have aborted the mission since they were well aware that their were innocent children in the building. The police, knowing children were there, bombed anyway. That was wrong, wrong, wrong.

[Mandate My Ass]

160. LOL, how pathetic...

when shown how wrong you are you still resort to hyperbole and anecdotal BS.

Aborted the mission? They had been fired on trying to serve warrants. THey weren't there to deliver pizzas.

[Tomee450]

168. Plenty of cops

have been shot at but bombs aren't dropped. Nothing you say changes the fact that the police, knowing children were in that building, dropped a bomb and killed them. They were wrong to do that. That cannot be excused.

[Mandate My Ass]

170. Repetition of a fact both sides have conceded is NOT making a point

Nobody in this entire thread claimed the police were justified in the decision to drop a bomb on a house where children lived. The only claim I see that is in dispute is whether the MOVE adults/parents acted in the selfless, reasoned and responsible manner that we demanded of law enforcement. Nobody disputes that these children were victims of overzealous, self-absorbed adults.

I repeat myself therefore I am.

[Demit]

169. Milton Williams is now the VP of Osage-Pine Community Association

I haven't read that he disowned that statement, but he is eminently reachable if you want to double-check with him. Here's the link to the story, if the picture doesn't load: http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/11370173.htm

I think if you "asked any of those neighbors if having MOVE out was worth the lives of those young children" they would look at you horrified for posing the question that way. They would see disrespect in that question. But I'm just guessing. Please, you have relatives living here, maybe you could have them ask the MOVE neighbors for you the next time you talk to them.

[cestpaspossible]

167. Thank you for posting that

the deaths of those children were 'worth it' to Mr. Williams because he wouldn't have to deal with MOVE any more. I think that pretty much sums it all up.

[Catherine Vincent]

180. From what I remember, this tragedy was similar to the Waco tragedy.

Both occupants defied authority. And they paid for that defiance with their lives...including innocent children.