Two killed in Mo. school bus accident

[proud2BlibKansan]

Officials say fatalities were in cars hit by vehicle; More than 20 children hurt
By Bill Draper
The Associated Press
Originally published May 9, 2005, 4:42 PM EDT

LIBERTY, Mo. -- A school bus slammed into two vehicles as it approached an intersection this morning, killing two people in the cars and injuring 23 elementary students.

Investigators said they don't know why the bus suddenly veered into the cars, which were waiting for a stoplight to change in this community about 15 miles north of Kansas City.

At least three children were taken to hospitals with life-threatening injuries. Some of the children suffered head injuries, cuts, scrapes, broken bones and neck injuries, said Laura Fitzmaurice, head of the emergency department at Children's Mercy Hospital in Kansas City. Many were bleeding and crying for their parents.

"One little boy had his teeth knocked out and he asked me if he was going to be deformed," said a shaken Vickie Whattoff, one of about 20 workers from a nearby grocery store who responded. "We saw that it was a bus and ran over and started helping kids out."

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nationworld/bal-bus0509,1,6371961.story?coll=bal-nationworld-headlines&ctrack=1&cset=true

[proud2BlibKansan]

1. This was a horrific accident

and all over KC, the debate is now raging - should school buses have seatbelts? At least one of the severe injuries in this wreck was a girl who was thrown from the bus.

So what do DUers think? Seatbelts on buses? Yes or No??

[proud2BlibKansan]

3. Here's a picture

[AmBlue]

30. Absolutely...

I positively cringe every time my first grader has to take a school bus for a field trip. Every mom I know complains about the lack of seat belts in the buses. How can this be justified? Why were seatbelts never installed in the first place? If they are mandatory in light vehicles, then why not in buses? :grr:

[LizW]

2. Teeth knocked out and head injuries

Sounds about right for a school bus accident. Even at a low speed, a sudden stop sends the kids into the hard back of the seat in front of them.

My kids don't ride the bus daily because we're so close to the schools, but every time they go on a field trip, I'm nervous.

I hope all the kids involved in this accident will be okay. :(

[proud2BlibKansan]

4. Several kids are still in critical condition

Around 10 were admitted to a hospital. The two people killed were in cars the bus ran over.

[jayctravis]

21. Maybe not seat belts...

But I remember a torn seat on my school bus...the framework was a solid iron bar. Some kids would lean on that and if we hit a pothole it could chunk the teeth pretty good.

What about if seats were somehow redesigned with rigid foam that could give in an impact...held by canvas webbing? Lots of velcro that would hold under normal circumstances but would unravel and catch, slowing bodies during impact forces? Would still be injuries but bumps and bruises as opposed to cuts and gashes.

[donco6]

23. Have you been on one lately?

The iron bars are long gone. All the seats are firm padded material.

We can install seat belts, sure. But then the kids have to wear them. How is that going to happen?

[htuttle]

5. If people want safer school buses, they're going to have to pay more taxes

School districts usually go with the absolute lowest dollar bid on bus services, almost all other factors be damned. This leads the bus companies, often affiliated with big multinationals nowdays like Laidlaw, to cut corners anywhere they can. 'Just good enough' is unfortunately the guideline for that industry.

If people want safer bus service for their children, they are going to have to fund their school districts better, so their school districts can afford to hire the most qualified transportation contractors, not just the cheapest ones.

But as we all know, when the choice comes up between higher property taxes or shortchanging children's education, people stuck with lower taxes everytime. They just don't really care enough to pay more. Apparently.

For reference, I've been working in the passenger transportation industry for many, many years, but have only seen the school bus sector from the outside. The above description is what I've seen. It's true whether or not this particular accident was any fault of the bus driver or vehicle.

[proud2BlibKansan]

7. It's really all about the cost

At $1,800 a bus, outfitting the 440,000 school buses in the U.S. would cost nearly $800 million.

http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a981106a.html

[htuttle]

9. At $1800 per bus, they are doing it on the cheap

There aren't enough 'hard points' in a typical school bus to attach seatbelts to each seat. That price would probably be for someone just bolting them into the sheet metal (which is what a school bus is mostly made of).

Even so, you're right -- it is really all about the cost.

[proud2BlibKansan]

14. Well call me crazy

but I think keeping kids safe is worth whatever it costs.

[hezekkia]

32. i'll call you crazy, i guess...

there are SO few injuries/deaths in school buses each year... kids are more likely to be struck by lightning. We wouldn't make it illegal for kids to go outside whenever it's raining.

Why waste precious resources when it is SO unlikely to prevent any harm? If there were thousands of injuries/deaths per year, we'd have an issue. but with tens of millions of school kids going to school every day, and then something like this happens once every few years in the whole country, it simply isn't worth it.

[proud2BlibKansan]

35. I doubt the family of the little girl

who was thrown from the bus would agree.

I DO understand your point. But I think the safety of our kids is pretty important, regardless of cost.

I also think seatbelts would keep the kids seated and prevent a lot of discipline problems on the bus.

[donco6]

39. 9 deaths/year . . .

and 4 or 5 of those are caused by the impact itself, so seat belts would not have prevented the injury.

I've said all along, yes, we can put seat belts on buses. But there is significant evidence that the seat belt itself will cause more injuries than the lack thereof (from loose, unfastened belts flying around hitting kids in the eye.)

We can say all we want, "This bus isn't going anywhere until all those belts are fastened." But in reality, after the bus driver is screamed at by an angry parent who is upset that the bus is late for the 3rd time because the kids weren't fastening their belts, things begin to break down. When bus schedules are set by the minute, we don't have the luxury to sit there waiting for the one obstinate kid to comply.

Until the data shows that seat belts will significantly impact the number of injuries suffered in school bus accidents, we're throwing money at a nonexistent problem.

[donco6]

24. We don't outsource our transportation.

But each bus costs us about $62,000. I can afford about one or two a year.

We can install seat belts, but then the kids have to wear them. What happens the first time there's an accident, and a kids is injured because he wasn't wearing a belt? The school gets sued. That's another $50,000 in defense costs even if we WIN.

So then we're forced to hire paraprofessionals for each bus at $24,000 a pop, per year. Their job is to make sure the kids wear the seat belts.

And people wonder why schools cost so much.

[proud2BlibKansan]

36. Paras make 24K a year?

What planet are you on? Ours start at minimum wage. Some have worked their way up to $8 or $9 an hour. Our first year teachers make a bit more than 24K. How much do they make in your district?

Most districts have insurance that pays those defense costs. Are the premiums 50K a year?

It also concerns me that so many folks assume kids won't wear seat belts without an adult on hand to enforce them. I honestly believe most kids will fasten those belts without being forced.

[donco6]

37. That's what ours make

$24,000 for 8 hour, 186-day work year. Full first person insurance. Dental. Eyeglasses. PERA retirement.

We're self insured, so the first $100,000 comes out of our (your) pocket.

Maybe most kids will. But not all will.

[proud2BlibKansan]

40. I have a friend who is a para in suburban Denver

I had no idea she made that kind of money.

[donco6]

41. Bus paras are a special breed

Most office and classroom paras don't work full 8-hour shifts. Bus paras have to have a lot of extra training on lifting and other special ed needs (trach tubes, feeding tubes, diapering). We only have them now to help with physically handicapped kids.

Office paras make around 12-15,000; classroom paras make a little more.

[proud2BlibKansan]

42. We don't have bus paras

We have a few monitors who work on buses with special needs kids but they don't make squat. And our bus service is contracted out so they don't work for the school district.

[donco6]

43. I won't contract out

The only thing we have contracted out now is lawn service.

Lots of districts are moving to contract out food service, transportation, custodial, maintenance, technology support, etc. But they're having all sorts of problems with it. The biggest problem is, when a person is not your employee, it's not always possible for you to tell them what to do. The outsourcing company is the real boss. So the custodian who doesn't clean well can't be made to do a better job, because the outsourcing company determines how many square feet he has to clean (almost always too much), what products to use (the cheapest available), etc. In addition, the outsourced people just don't ever really become part of your school community. The relationships are just not there - it becomes impersonal.

The outsourcers (ServiceMaster, Sodexho, Marriott, Mayflower etc.) are really good at making the numbers look attractive to schools, but I think you lose a great deal more than you gain.

[proud2BlibKansan]

45. I agree

My hubby works in maintenance for our district. He is a district employee, but his boss is not. He also has to get all his work orders approved by Service Master. They hired him and they buy all the tools he needs. The custodians have to use all Service Master cleaning products. Some are good, but most are not. It is a royal pain. But it saves money so the district does it.

[tanyev]

6. Are there seat belts on school buses now?

There weren't any in my day, but hardly anyone wore seat belts back in those days. We know better now. I took a trip on Greyhound not too long ago and it really bothered me that there weren't any seat belts. I'm sure kids who have been raised in car seats would be pretty compliant about wearing seat belts on a bus.

[proud2BlibKansan]

8. Some buses have seat belts

but most do not. They are usually required on the smaller buses.

It is really a local issue. Some states and school districts have mandated them. But every time this issue comes up, the factor of the cost is brought up.

BTW, you do realize that the bus driver ALWAYS has a seat belt?

[htuttle]

10. The driver usually has to wear one by law

If the state has a seatbelt law, that is.

[proud2BlibKansan]

12. I have a huge problem with that

The law mandates a belt on the driver but NOT on the kids?

The naysayers claim the kids are safer without seat belts. They point to an NTSB study which concluded seat belts would not make buses safer and are cost prohibitive.

But if the kids really are safer, then why does the driver have to wear a belt?

[donco6]

25. Because he's facing a window

and not the back of a padded seat.

But if you guys want seat belts, we can do it. But it's not the cost of belts that's the biggie, it's the cost of paras to ensure the belts are secured by the kids.

[proud2BlibKansan]

27. I think they would put them on

without paras. Take it off and they get in trouble. In my district, they get bus conduct cards. Three of those and you are off the bus for a week or more.

In fact, I think seatbelts would help out with discipline on the bus. The kids would stay seated. That would eliminate a lot of problems.

[donco6]

29. Ha!

Well, I wish I lived in your world.

[proud2BlibKansan]

34. I teach

I spend my days around hundreds of kids. So yes, I think I am qualified to say that most kids WOULD keep the seatbelts on. Most kids DO follow the rules.

[donco6]

38. I'm the CFO

And I file the insurance claims. Some kids do stupid things. We pay for them.

[AmBlue]

31. Most kids are use to putting seat belts on

My kids tell me if their seatbelts come loose for any reason when we are in the car. Kids are conditioned from birth to wear seatbelts so I don't think it would be a problem at all. The bus simply goes nowhere until all seatbelts are on.

[October]

11. Yes, but they're lap belts only in most cases

Our school buses do not have any belts...but the ones I've seen or heard of that do, are generally lap-only belts. I suppose that would help a bit...but the shoulder harness is best.

[proud2BlibKansan]

13. I have seen mainly lap belts too

And the driver always has a shoulder harness.

[jayctravis]

22. What about roller-coaster like shoulder harnesses?

[donco6]

26. Children under 40 pounds have to wear a harness.

Here in Colorado.

[October]

28. We're in PA, by the way. /eom

[XemaSab]

15. why not phase seat belts in

on new busses and require bus companies to make busses with shouder-lap belts?

[proud2BlibKansan]

18. Well that would make sense

But we don't always operate that way when it comes to protecting our kids. (Unfortunately)

[Ron Green]

16. Sounds as if the driver lost it in this case.

Went to sleep, blacked out, had a seizure, whatever. The unwitting people sitting in their cars were the fatalities, although some kids on the bus were injured, too. Seat belts can't prevent the bus driver from crunching some cars.

[proud2BlibKansan]

17. Yes it does look like the bus driver caused the accident

But seat belts would have prevented at least one litle girl from being thrown from the bus. Who knows how many others may not have been injured?

[Red State Rebel]

44. Local reports are that driver was unable to stop - brake failure?

They are investigating.

[booksenkatz]

19. Similar discussion I started in GD this a.m.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3623665&mesg_id=3623665

I was truly bothered reading about this accident, but am not sure what the answer is -- I've heard fair arguments on both sides today. The main problem seems to be the cost of retrofitting the buses benched against the "mere" 11 kids or so who die each year in school bus crashes -- I'd bet that there are many, many more injuries, but I have no stats to support that. Such deaths are obviously horrible, but injuries can be almost as horrible.

[proud2BlibKansan]

20. Thanks for the link

good thread

Such a dilemna.

[BrightKnight]

33. Implementing NTSB Recommendations

http://www.cnn.com/US/9909/21/bus.safety/

Have any of the NTSB recommendations actually been implemented? This should be addressed at the national level.

[proud2BlibKansan]

46. good LTTE in the KC paper

School bus belts

Dr. Jeffrey W. Runge, administrator of the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, was in Kansas City pushing for tougher seat-belt laws, praising seat belts as life savers. He then said that shoulder belts in school buses would be impractical. That's old-fashioned hogwash.

School buses need newly designed seats with integrated, adjustable shoulder belts that slide up and down to adjust for people of different heights. Many automakers have used that basic design for years.

Lynn Hawkins

Kansas City