Gay Catholics To Be Denied Communion

[sonicx]

(St. Paul, Minnesota) Archbishop Harry Flynn has told gay-rights supporters they can't receive Holy Communion while wearing rainbow-colored sashes because it is seen as a protest against Catholic teaching and unacceptable to the Vatican.

Flynn's decision, conveyed in a letter this week to the Rainbow Sash Alliance USA, reverses his four-year policy of not interfering with sash-wearers receiving Communion at the Cathedral of St. Paul.

A gay-rights leader said sash-wearers would continue to attempt to receive communion at the cathedral.

The Rainbow Sash movement is an organization of lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender Catholics and their families and friends.

Rainbow-sash supporters in St. Paul and a handful of other dioceses have organized their presence around the Christian celebration of Pentecost, which this year is May 15.

much more = http://www.365gay.com/newscon05/05/050605catholics.htm

[Erika]

1. Take the tax exempt status away from the church

They don't want gay parishioners, don't take the taxes of the gays to support the church.

[Maat]

6. Amen!

[Stinky The Clown]

17. I agree with your sentiment

But I don't think this is exactly the situation in which that applies. This isn't about politics. Its about religion. I don't like this. I think it flies in the face of all I know and hold to be decent and "Christian" (having been raised and educated Catholic, but long ago lapsed).

But the Catholics have been pretty consistent on this stance and, in purely religious terms, it is their right to do this. It is also one of a bazillion reasons why I stopped going as a teenager.

Now, if ol' Bishop Flynniepoo were doing what that guy at the small church in NC did (kicking out anyone who was a Dem or supported a Dem politician) the Hammers of (IRS) Hell shoudl be cutting a wide swath right up their ass ... as it were.

[Richard Steele]

35. "No Matter How THIN You Slice It, It's Still BALONEY!"

Quote:
"But I don't think this is exactly the situation in which that applies."

The key word is: "exactly".

I agree with you, H2S, this is not EXACTLY the same. But is IS in the same vein.

The Fascimentalists are growing BOLDER everywhere, EVERYWHERE!!!!

They are CONSTANTLY encouraged by those in power who appeal to the WORST in everyone,
and spit upon the 'LAW' as some 'elitist highbrow' creation.

That Church in NC may have jumped into the pool before the starter's gun...

But all the other "CHURCHES" are standing at the same "starting line" at the edge of the political 'POOL'.

So now a Catholic Diocese has dipped its toe, to test the water.
The WATER is warm and inviting.

[Daphne08]

18. Yup!

[Seabiscuit]

49. If the church doesn't want to bury gays or give them communion, then they

should just excommunicate gays and quit hypocritically accepting their donations as members of the church.

"Oh, we'll take your money. You're welcome to sit in our pews and contribute when we pass the basket. But forget about communion. And find some other church to bury you."

[Sabriel]

87. Do what my friend does: put a note in the basket instead of $$

Her note says something like, "I'm a gay Catholic, and I won't give another penny until I'm fully recognized as a human being by the Church."

[revelhag]

121. what a great idea

all women should do the same!!! since we aren't seen as human beings, either.

[DemBones DemBones]

68. They're NOT trying to get rid of gay parishioners; there are many gay

Catholics. What they ARE saying is that anyone, gay or straight, engaging in this rainbow scarf protest to disrupt Mass will be denied Communion.

As I said elsewhere, as a disabled woman and a Catholic, I would also oppose disability activists or feminists engaging in any form of protests during Mass, even if the protest only involves clothing.

They are not attending Mass for the right reason if their focus is on wearing that rainbow scarf.

[AngryOldDem]

78. Agreed

Rainbow Sash has no other motive than to be disruptive. The archbishop is fully within his rights to bar them from receiving. The Church has the right to maintain the integrity of the Eucharist, as well as the atmosphere of worship for those parishioners who are there to take part in the Mass.

There is a time and a place to protest. Mass is not one of them.

I am all for gay rights, and yes, the Church has some ways to go in its thinking about homosexuality. But as a Catholic, I would be angered if such a protest were staged at my church. And no, I'm not being hypocritical. I would be just as angered if a pro-life group would use the Mass and the Eucharist to further its particular aims by making itself the center of attention.

Not the way to win friends and influence people. Never saw the sense in it, and still don't.

[sonicx]

84. someone wearing a pro-life sash would not be asked to remove it

A piece of clothing is not disruptive. Someone lower said this sounds similar to kicking people out of Bush rallies only because they have Kerry pins or bumper stickers. Even if they go just to hear the US President speak and have no intention to heckle. If the sash wearers were heckling, that would be another story.

"the Church has some ways to go in its thinking about homosexuality"

Actually, DemBones says they are never going to change. :eyes:

[AngryOldDem]

85. With all due respect, I doubt that

They **are** calling attention to themselves, which is their point in wearing the sashes, which makes me wonder how sincere their intent is for receiving the Host in the first place. For the ordinary Catholic in the pew, Communion is the most active and visible part of the Mass for him or her -- it is standing up, professing belief, and making a sign of unity with fellow believers. Where else in the Mass could Rainbow Sash make its (valid) point that the Church is indeed regressive in its views on homosexuality and have all the focus on them? This is nothing more than one huge "I dare you" to the presider, since Rainbow Sash knows full well what the outcome will be. That only turns Mass into a confrontation, and ultimately a cheap sideshow. Again to me, as a practicing Catholic, that is offensive, no matter how much I may agree with those espousing the agenda.

This is using the Eucharist and the deeply held faith of many as a tool. That will score few points with some Catholics, especially those who may be willing to listen to reasoned argument on the subject. You risk turning off more than you convince, but I also understand that for some that is a risk they are willing to take.

[jbnow]

92. I don't understand your view

They have been doing this for four years and there was no problem there. Disruptive? They aren't shouting "I'm here and I'm queer". They are wearing a sash with pretty colors.

It isn't a protest but a symbol of declaration or expression of who they are or who they love. They are wearing a sash. It isn't a chant, it isn't profane, it isn't loud, it doesn't block anyone from getting to communion.

[AngryOldDem]

94. What's so hard to understand?

They are making a statement of defiance against Church teachings. The sash is the visible representation of that. It is setting themselves apart from the rest of the congregation, calling attention to their particular sexual preference. The sash is more than just "pretty colors."

They know full well they will be denied the Host by the priest. As I said, they are making an ultimatum. "Peaceful and serene" it may be, the intent is to challenge. Mass is not the time or place for that, and nothing will convince me otherwise. And I seem to recall in the past at some higher-profile churches (like St. Patrick's in NY) some Rainbow Sash participants became quite vocal when they were inevitably denied Communion.

If they approach the Host with pure intent, with a conscience and heart square with God -- as some in my own family do -- then they should approach the priest afterward and say, "Father, I'm gay and you gave me Communion. Can we talk about that?" I think that approach beats "in your face" any day. Perhaps the chances for productive dialogue would be slim, but I guarantee the chances will be none with the Rainbow Sash tactics.

[sonicx]

96. "They know full well they will be denied the Host by the priest."

Why is the priest denying them? The person will be gay or a gay rights supporter even without the sash. What is the difference? John Kerry and other Catholic Democrats (some moderate republican Catholics too) are open gay rights supporters. They defy Church teachings everyday when they speak in support of choice and gay rights. Should they be denied too?

"Father, I'm gay and you gave me Communion. Can we talk about that?"

And what do you think a priest is going to say to a proud gay or gay rights supporter who is a practicing Catholic?

"As I said, they are making an ultimatum."

How? Giving communion to an active gay or gay rights supporter is not accepting their actions.

[zanne]

115. But friends and family wear the sashes, too.

Does that mean that even people who sympathize and support cannot receive Holy Communion? I can understand trying to stick up for the Church, but at some point, it becomes disingenuous.

[demosincebirth]

88. Some only read what they want into a statement

[DanCa]

2. Didn't they do this last year?

I was just wondering if this is a repeat performance.
Side not I go to the episcopal church or when i go into a catholic mass again I will proudly wear my democratic donkey on my lapel in support of my gay brothers and sisters in christ love.

[Straight Shooter]

3. Wow, that's rich, considering how many priests are homosexual.

And I'm not slamming priests here. It's merely the truth, that's all. One of my favorite priests -- well, my favorite priest in fact, was gay. He didn't broadcast it, it's just the way it was.

[CJCRANE]

43. But it's ok as long as they're celibate

according to catholic dogma.

A cousin of mine went into training to become a Catholic priest, but then dropped out. Turned out that he was gay and couldn't repress himself any longer.

[Straight Shooter]

54. But many of them are not celibate, at least in the sexual sense.

If what I have learned is correct, "celibacy" in terms of priesthood refers to not marrying rather than sexual intimacy. True, my priest did not marry, but he was involved in a very long-term relationship with another man.

Good for your cousin. I've never understood how people expect (demand) other people in basically the prime of their sexual life to repress the sexual drive. Maybe some people can challenge that drive into other areas, but no one can deny that it's always there.

[Nothing Without Hope]

73. They are SUPPPOSED to be celibate in the sexual sense.

They are not even supposed to give THEMSELVES pleasure or release - we were taught in Catholic schools that masturbation was evil.

[Straight Shooter]

90. Priests are human beings. Did not God give them sexual desire?

How anyone can expect a priest to deny himself any kind of intimate comfort is beyond me. It's like throwing someone into a restaurant and saying, okay, you can only drink plain water and eat saltines, and you'll have to do this for the rest of your life.

Maybe it worked better when priests didn't live so long, and maybe when they had a lot of physical labor to channel that sexual energy. :shrug:

[Nothing Without Hope]

97. Yes, it's a no-win situation. Guilt manipulation has been a major force

over people for centuries of church rule. So there is a constant struggle with desire - that's the voice of Satan, see? - and if you even give yourself a release by masturbation that is a sin. It's a setup. You lose no matter what. There is ALWAYS guilt and the need for intercession (through the church, naturally) with God so you won't go to hell. it's a racket, in my opinion, and a very cruel and inhuman one. Unbelievable that it is still going on after all this time, but that's human nature. The racket works - people want to be reassured that they won't go to hell, that they'll go to their loved ones in heaven, so they agree to do the most amazing things to keep the church's approval. And of course the cycle works - they "sin" --it's inevitable, since they are human and have normal human desires - and they need to go to the church for "reparation and forgiveness" over and over all their lives.

Jesus would be APPALLED, I feel sure.

[Straight Shooter]

98. A favorite joke of mine: How do you get a Catholic to do something?

Make them feel guilty if they don't do it.

(As a lapsed Catholic, I reserve the right to poke fun at myself and request lenience by those who understand exactly what I mean.)

[Nothing Without Hope]

100. I'm an L.C too - and what a guilt-laden term that is! - so I do understand

Religion gives a kind of comfort to millions, but it comes at a price. To me there is no question that this price is more than should be paid. And I feel that obedience enforced by guilt and fear is an ugly way to push people around. That dark side of the church's character as an institution seems to be coming more to fore again. There had been hope with Vatican II, but that has been all but completely banished by the hardliners now in power.

Depressing. To dispell this dark frame of mind, here's a religious joke you may enjoy as I do - though we might choose something involving guilt for the Catholics. Don't know where this came from, it's one of the classics floating around on the net:

How many Christians does it take to change a light bulb?

Charismatics: Only one, Hands already in the air.

Pentecostals: Ten, One to change the bulb, and nine to pray against the
spirit of darkness

Presbyterians: None, Lights will go on and off at predestined times.

Roman Catholic: None, Candles only.

Baptists: At least 15, One to change the light bulb, and three committees
to approve the change and decide who brings the potato salad.

Episcopalians: Three, One to call the electrician, one to mix the drinks
and one to talk about how much better the old one was.

Mormons: Five, One man to change the bulb, and four wives to tell him how
to do it.

Methodists: Undetermined, Whether your light is bright, dull, or completely
out, you are loved. You can be a light bulb, turnip bulb, or tulip bulb.
Church wide lighting service is planned for Sunday. Bring bulb of your
choice and a covered dish.

Nazarene: Six, One woman to replace the bulb while five men review church
lighting policy.

Lutherans: None, Lutherans don't believe in change.

Amish: What's a light bulb?

Unitarians: We choose not to make a statement either in favor of or against
the need for a light bulb. However, if in your own journey you have found
that light bulbs work for you, that is fine. You are invited to write a
poem or compose a modern dance about your light bulb for the next Sunday
service, in which we will explore a number of light bulb traditions,
including incandescent, fluorescent, three-way, long-life and tinted, all of which
are equally valid paths to luminescence.

[Straight Shooter]

103. Catholic: candles only

Aha, that explains my incredible love for candles. They're everywhere in my house! :7

I wonder, sometimes, if the Church of Lapsed Catholics has as many members as the official Roman Catholic Church ...

[Nothing Without Hope]

104. I'd guess that the Church of L.C. has MORE members than the other one

...and I know which congregation I'd rather be marooned with if I had to pick one.

[Straight Shooter]

119. Amen to that.

Makes you wonder how many lapsed members of other churches there are, people who would like to go back except for the dogma being shoved down their throats instead of the words of Jesus being introduced to their hearts.

[Nothing Without Hope]

123. Yes, it's so sad. Many people stay out of fear of damnation and guilt

over their perceived sins - some of which I would say are not evil at all. But the fear of damnation plus the desire to remain accepted by their acquaintances and their families keeps them hanging on. Besides, they belong to SOMETHING, it's like a club sometimes and can be supportive.

There's little of joy or love in it for all too many. And that number will rise with the hardliners' proclamations of intolerance and closure of hearts and minds. Vatican II showed that the institution is capable of so much better.

[reprobate]

67. Careful, I posted pretty much the same and it was deleted.

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[delete_bush]

16. Gee, another group of Merkuns I didn't know

about. Any links to info about these guys?

[harpo]

30. email the pope...I'm sure he will get a letter out on it to you

[Occulus]

5. Why don't they just rip the stuff out of his hand?

TAKE communion. Literally.

(don't give me bullshit about being 'respectful'. Respect has gotten us negative progress.)

[harpo]

7. another attempt to control people through religion...bleah!

[Arugula Latte]

134. Really. Who needs this crap?

Thank, um, nature that I'm not religious!

A pox on the lot of them. Fucking churches.

[Nothing Without Hope]

8. With Ratzinger and Opus Dei in full power, the bigots can do what

they want on this and be safe in the assumption that the Vatican will support their stance. He's probably wanted to do something like this for years.

[Bozita]

25. Ratzinger was the guy who declared a fatwa on Kerry (communion thing)

Politicians who vote for abortion are to be denied the sacraments.

So, ... how does America like it when a German Cardinal injects himself into an American presidential election?

Pisses me off, ... bigtime.

[Nothing Without Hope]

33. Exactly. So ironic: it's an UNHOLY alliance between the extremist RW

of the Prostestant sects and the Catholic hierarchy. Why they can't see this themselves: that they do NOT follow what we know of what Jesus actually taught, seems to be a special blindness. If I were a Christian, I'd say it was blinding by Satan. Since I'm not, I'm guessing it's some combination of hubris and the worst excesses of human nature, enhanced further by mob instincts for persecution of the unlike.

[revelhag]

122. Jesus left a long time ago

and they have just been living on the dying embers of penticost--his gift to them, which they abused. It's sad-- they've lost the connection with the Divine. And with all the corners of the world already pilaged what miltary really needs their mission work anymore?

They can keep their 'eucharists'. I'll accept and cherish my Savior in my heart, thank you very much.

[struggle4progress]

9. " ... In a reply sent Monday, Flynn told McNeill that he had received ..

.. a directive from the Vatican declaring that wearing the sash during communion is unacceptable. Flynn said the sash has increasingly been perceived as a protest against church teaching, and asked that group members remove their sashes before receiving communion ... Flynn's letter emphasized that the policies of the Church and the archdiocese will continue to welcome baptized Catholics of all backgrounds, including those with same-sex orientation ..."

http://www.startribune.com/stories/462/5388460.html

[harpo]

28. now they have to dress a certain way? is there a list of whats acceptable?

[Hand]

74. Burqas, perhaps? With chastity belts? nt

[Nothing Without Hope]

34. This policy does not make sense to me. It seems to make this statement:

If you don't reveal that you are gay by wearing a special article of clothing, you can have communion. So it's not the gayness or the support for open acceptance of it, it's this article of clothing they've fixed upon.

That seems bizarre to me and brings back memories of how when I was a little girl being raised Catholic, I HAD to have something on my head in church, even a hastily pinned bit of kleenex. Women had to cover at least the tops of their heads. I don't know if it was some kind of official directive, but it was a very big thing that was paid attention constantly. Many times I forgot my uniform hat and had to borrow a kleenex and a bobby pin. Why they would think the being they believe created and maintains the entire universe would give a flying fig was never explained. Of course.

Recommended for greatest - we have to watch what they do OFFICIALLY, on directives from the Vatican. This is a significant gesture- what will come next?

[Nothing Without Hope]

37. Is it possible that Flynn is deliberately doing lip service to the Vatican

while supporting the gays as much as he dares? As I said elsewhere on this thead, this policy of allowing openly gay people who do NOT wear the sash communion doesn't make sense - why fixate on the sash? But if the Vatican directive SPECIFICALLY covered the sash but did not forbid communion to openly gay people, then Flynn would have no alternative but to obey that.

This is so bizarre to me. Why just the sash? Are they afraid of driving more people away if they are more sweeping in their anti-gay rules? And is Flynn doing only as much as he is forced to by the Vatican, while perhaps disagreeing with it?

[struggle4progress]

55. Well, a bunch of rightwing sites are whining about exactly that ... eom

[Nothing Without Hope]

72. Now THAT is interesting. If Flynn really wants to hold the line on bigotry

while at the same time obeying the directives of the Vatican, he's going to be walking a thin line while making both sides angry. And he won't be able to explain his actions.

How long until Ratzinger moves to a more global ban on gays getting communion? This business of banning the sash but not the people is silly, and he is many things but rarely that. And what will happen if a more global ban comes down? It would cause outrage and fury, including among many of the clergy in the US and Europe.

[reprobate]

79. Interesting. While at the same time the vatican closes churches....

....in france, among other places. They can't find enough priests to fill the parishes. If this were a corporation the board of directors would have sacked management by now.

In europe catholic church attendance (in fact all church attendance) is declining while in the U.S. the leadership does all it can to drive members away. What a strange way to run a railroad.

[Nothing Without Hope]

106. Yes, it IS a strange way to run a railroad. Logic doesn't coexist well in

an environment where people think they are talking to a god and receiving directions. Though it looks to me like the directions are more in the other direction, that they are telling GOD what is "right." Reminds me of one of my favorite Voltaire quotes (wish I knew French so I could relish the original):

"If God created us in his own image, we have more than reciprocated." --Voltaire, philosopher (1694-1778)

[havocmom]

10. About Communion, do they let pedophile priests give it?

Even the ones who molested young boys? Are those priests among the group who would deny Communion to gays who celebrate love with consenting gay adults?

Would really like to hear from Cardinal Law on that one.

[harpo]

13. yes...but the question I have is do they wash their hands first? ewww

[havocmom]

23. Ah, brief, to the point and damned funny!

Thanks, I needed that tonight.

[saigon68]

39. The good Cardinal won't speak to you

He is busy hiding form the "LONG ARM" of the Law.

After doing massive "SHORT ARM" inspections of his charges.

[gratuitous]

11. And Jesus said

Come to me all you that are weary and carrying heavy burdens, and I will give you rest. (Matthew 11:28)

Anyone who comes to me I will never drive away. (John 6:37b)

Love your enemies, do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return. (Luke 6:35)

But I'm sure that Archbishop Flynn is much smarter than Jesus, and far more in tune with God and God's thoughts than Jesus ever was. St. Paul is certainly fortunate to have such a man in a position of authority.

[Erika]

12. Yeah, there is no humility in the churches anymore

They remind me very much of the arrogance Bush displayed with his "bring them on" insanity when he was the great war president.

[Roland99]

14. Catholic version of Don't Ask, Don't Tell?

[DesEtoiles]

15. to hell with the Catholic Church.

[Bluebear]

19. The Holy War has begun.

[Erika]

20. Withdraw their tax exempt status

and watch them cry uncle. They think with Bush they can get away with extremism and still take our money. They need to realize Bush is held in very low esteem by most Americans. They need to wake up.

[RPM]

21. burn the church!!!

or at least tax it!

[harpo]

29. I have a feeling that will be happening a lot this summer

:smoke:

[dsc]

22. They have a right to do this

I certainly think it is stupid of them to do this, but religions get to set their own rules. My problem with them is their trying to get government to enforce those rules.

[antonialee839]

24. I think it sad when mortals pretend to know the

mind of God. It always seems to get them into nothing but trouble.
Apparently God thinks it's OK to hide rapist priests, but He has to draw the line when it comes to the gays.

[Bozita]

26. Google: Ratzinger Kerry Holy Communion ... history repeats itself

Results 1 - 10 of about 18,000 for Ratzinger Kerry Holy Communion. (0.20 seconds) 

New pope intervened against Kerry in US 2004 election campaign ...
... John Kerry. In a June 2004 letter to US bishops enunciating principles of
worthiness for communion recipients, Ratzinger specified that strong and open ...
beta.news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20050419/pl_afp/vaticanpopeus - 31k - Cached - Similar pages

Cardinal Ratzinger Orders Kerry Communion Ban
... such as Kerry “still presents himself to receive the Holy Eucharist, ...
of Holy Communion must refuse to distribute it, ” Cardinal Ratzinger wrote. ...
www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2004/7/6/152916.shtml - 29k - Cached - Similar pages


NewsMax.com: Inside Cover Story
... With one bishop saying he would deny Holy Communion to Kerry, Ratzinger helped
guide the US prelates' discussion of the matter. ...
www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/4/19/223150.shtml - 29k - May 5, 2005 - Cached - Similar pages

Ratzinger flip flops on Communion for Pro-abortion politicians by ...
... addresses the question of the denial of Holy Communion to Catholics in political
life, ... As Cardinal Mahony told Kerry, “If you are refused Communion, ...
www.traditioninaction.org/ Cultural/F004cpFlpiFlop_Joseph.htm - 10k - Cached - Similar pages

New pope was force in efforts to deny Kerry communion during '04 ...
... when the Ratzinger-led intervention of the Vatican highlighted Kerry's ...
in evil" and is likewise "unworthy to present himself for holy communion." ...
www.reflector.com/news/content/ shared/news/world/stories/04/POPE_KERRY21.html - 38k - Cached - Similar pages

Attytood: Are you a Roman Catholic who voted for Kerry? Pope ...
... principles of worthiness for communion recipients, Ratzinger specified that
... and so unworthy to present himself for holy communion," the letter read. ...
www.pnionline.com/dnblog/attytood/archives/001741.html - 15k - Cached - Similar pages

CNS STORY: Cardinal Ratzinger lays out principles on denying ...
... John Kerry, is a Catholic who supports legal abortion. ... where he must refuse
to distribute holy Communion to someone," Cardinal Ratzinger said. ...
www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0403722.htm - 17k - Cached - Similar pages

Cardinal Ratzinger said, "The minister of Holy Communion must ...
... what we know Cardinal Ratzinger's memo, "Worthiness to Receive Holy Communion
... Chiesa (L'Espresso), 7/3/04, "The Kerry Affair: What Ratzinger Wanted ...
www.renewamerica.us/columns/kralis/040706 - 52k - Cached - Similar pages

Politics and Virtue -
The Kerry Affair: What Ratzinger Wanted from the American Bishops ... should give
to “public unworthiness to receive Holy Communion,” as Ratzinger writes. ...
www.politicsandvirtue.com/ratzinger.htm - 25k - Cached - Similar pages

Washington Notebook April 21, 2005
... that they too would deny Kerry Communion because of his pro-choice views, ...
Holy Communion until he brings to an end the objective situation of sin, ...
www.nationalcatholicreporter.org/washington/ - 17k - Cached - Similar pages

[DemBones DemBones]

27. You neglect to add that Cardinal Ratzinger also sent a letter to

U.S. Bishops clarifying that Catholics were morally allowed to vote for a pro-choice candidate if there were compelling reasons to do so (such as the possibility that a candidate presented as pro-life is morally less acceptable than the pro-choice candidate.

Cardinal Ratzinger reminded the bishops that it would only be a sin if a Catholic voted for a candidate specifically and only because he supported legalized abortion.

[sonicx]

32. Perhaps it would have been better to send no letters at all...

Anything to say about the sash denying story?

[ElectroPrincess]

44. You're absolutely right DemBones, however, the letter goes on

and on ... the last several paragraphs hyper-focuses of those of us Catholics who dare vote for Kerry *because* vice *in spite of* his vow to represent his constituency with a pro-choice stance.

This letter should have been the impetus to PULL the Catholic's Church's tax free status. It was reprinted and disseminated to individual Parishes the Sunday before the 2004 presidential elections.

It was only within the first four paragraphs that he "simply stated" that it is "OK" to vote for Kerry in spite of his pro-choice position IF other moral positions outweigh it.

The smarmy way Ratzinger's letter goes OFF on a tangent - going on (and on!) about hell and damnation for us who (I don't know why he'd think any thoughtful practicing Catholic would?) would dare vote for a candidate BECAUSE of a pro-choice voting record.

Although I still attend Mass and personally contribute my free time to our Catholic School and Outreach Program, words can't described how saddened I am that far too many of our Church Leaders have breeched the time-tested USA government tenet: The Separation of Church and State. However, just like any large bureaucracy, the seemingly arrogant politically driven leaders (too many Bishops, Cardinals and now Our Pope) don't have a clue about the people that they have vowed to guide and represent.

On topic: it has been deemed DIRECTLY by officials in the Vatican that it is NOT the individual Priest's duty to discern whether *any* individual Church Member can receive communion. It's the INDIVIDUAL Parishioner's duty to search their Soul to arrive at this important decision.

Gee guys!?! Would you kindly read "The Sermon on the Mount" more often for inspiration? Those of us practicing Catholics living in the REAL day-to-day World would greatly appreciate it.

[DemBones DemBones]

63. Quite simply, you're wrong. At the end of the letter he added

a note marked N.B. (stands for the Latin Nota Bene and means Note Well, i.e., this is the crux of what I'm saying, despite all the theological wording above -- Listen Up!)

The N.B. not briefly stated that Catholics would only sin IF they voted for an abortion supporter BECAUSE of his/her support for abortion. That should be patently obvious to any Catholic. I think the N.B. also reiterated the bit about other moral reasons compelling one to vote for a candidate who supports abortion if the other candidate might be expected to do more evil.

[ElectroPrincess]

102. There's nothing "simple" about this issue and I know what I read ...

Again, I'm stating my opinion and what I have validly observed in the form of a "smarmy" tangential letter.

No disrespect to you Dembones. Please consider hesitating a moment or two before passing judgments on my beliefs. After all one's thoughtful beliefs are nothing BUT genuine.

There's very little about the presence of our new Pope that gives me a sense of hope. May God grant us liberal practicing Catholics the patience and strength to endure these arrogant men of power.

[emMingo]

117. The Letter Doesn't Get Too Specific

The Ratzinger Doctrine basically says that abortion is a HUGE issue, so if it comes down to a pro-choice candidate or an anti-abortion candidate, you chould generally chose the anti-abortion candidate. If both candidates are pro-choice, then you can vote for the candidate that is more in line w/Church policies. You'd go, then for someone who is anti-war, etc.

[revelhag]

130. so putting all the pieces together

I guess we're the biatches of the Vatican's New Pope and the British PM.

who would'a thunk it?

[Robeson]

31. Why are churches tax exempt? They are a money making enterprise...

...so is my business, and I have to pay taxes. I say tax the churches, and use those funds specifically towards social programs. That would be the best way churches could contribute to the benefit of mankind and society...

[Carolab]

36. How about skinheads with Nazi armbands?

Are they okay?

[Barkley]

56. Are gays banned from the collection plate too?

I wonder if the Church would accept a check with a rainbow inscription on it?

[DemBones DemBones]

65. GAYS ARE NOT BANNED FROM ANYTHING IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.

The Catholic Church teaches that gays are children of God, like anyone else, and not to be discriminated against. These people are not being told they'll be denied Communion unless they stop being gay, and many of them are not gay, anyway.

People wearing rainbow sashes to protest Catholic teaching (i.e., give the Church the finger and disrupt Mass) will no longer be allowed to receive Communion if they're wearing the sashes. They'll have to choose whether to protest or receive Communion.

If they are truly Catholics, they'll leave the sashes at home. If they are nominal Catholics who want the Church to change everything to fit their likes and dislikes, they'll show up wearing the sashes and whine when they're denied Communion.

[NickB79]

69. How exactly does wearing the sash disrupt Mass?

I have yet to see a riot break out at Mass over a man or woman wearing a rainbow sash, or hear so much as a peep over it from others around me.

[flordehinojos]

38. GAY PEOPOLE OF AMERICA. PROCEED TO RECEIVE HOLY COMMUNION WITHOUT THE SASH

THEN PROCEED TO PUT IT ON RIGHT AFTER YOU RECEIVE HOLY COMMUNION.

MAKE IT AN ISSUE BETWEEN YOU AND GOD. ELIMINATE THE MIDDLE MAN THE IGNORAMOUS MARABUNTA PRIESTS UNLEASHED BY THE LIKES OF THE BUSH MARABUNTA BOYS) FROM THE REAL ISSUE WHICH IS...NO ONE HAS THE RIGHT TO JUDGE YOU EXCEPT GOD and HE is a loving, wisdom filled God ... so different from all this bush marabunta crap being unleashed on the world and the catholic church as well.

[The Stranger]

53. I'd spit the communion right back in their faces.

[DemBones DemBones]

64. Aren't you the clever one?

So mature, too. :eyes:

[Ripley]

71. And you are so mature in your above post...

claiming gays should quit whining and trying to change the church for their little whims.

Maybe the church and it's defenders should recognize their hypocricy and hatefulness on this subject instead of making the absurd argument that someone wearing a rainbow sash is disrupting the services. :eyes:

[Xithras]

112. You may, but no Catholic would.

If you understand the Catholic teaching about what the host really is, you'd understand why that thought would never even cross the mind of anyone who received it.

And if you don't believe in transubstantiation, you don't belong in a Catholic Church anyway.

[The Stranger]

118. I bet some Catholic would.

They have desecrated the host by withholding it and making it subject to and allocated according to their hatred.

Besides, I escaped misguided worship of Earthly "authorities" long ago. And (ironically, I suppose) I thank God for it.

[DemBones DemBones]

40. Headline is misleading. Gay Catholics are NOT to be denied Communion at

all, which would be logistically impossible if you think about it for a second.

Look at the statement:

(St. Paul, Minnesota) Archbishop Harry Flynn has told gay-rights supporters they can't receive Holy Communion while wearing rainbow-colored sashes because it is seen as a protest against Catholic teaching and unacceptable to the Vatican.

the person making the ruling: Archbishop Flynn

the persons affected by the ruling: gay-rights supporters -- not gays but gay rights supporters, though certainly a large percentage of gay-rights supporters are gay

also, not all gay rights supporters are affected, only those wearing rainbow-colored sashes when they go up to receive Communion.

The main point of rainbow-colored sashes is an in-your-face statement to the priest and all those attending Mass that these people are pissed off at ancient Church theology and policy that isn't going to change. It's essentially "Fuck twenty centuries of Christian theology and practice; we want what we want and we want it right now."

They have a right to make their protest but no right to make it inside a Catholic church during a celebration of Catholicism's greatest sacrament and expect to receive Communion. Let them express their anger elsewhere, not during a sacred rite.

As a disabled woman, I'd feel the same way about disability rights protesters or women's rights protester being disruptive at Mass, even if the disruption is "only" visual. Rainbow sash wearers are purposely distracting people from concentrating on the purpose of the Mass and that's just wrong.

[sonicx]

41. "Fuck twenty centuries of Christian theology and practice"

Active Christians who are actively gay or gay rights supporters are saying "Fuck Christianity"? Wow. BTW, i'm not all that impressed at the "Christianity's been around so long" BS. Sounds too much like the anti-gay marriage arguments I hear (Marriage is sacred and has existed for centuries").

"policy that isn't going to change"

what does that have to do with anything? I'm pissed off at things I can't change everyday.

[DemBones DemBones]

62. Not what I said, read more carefully before you spew, please.

[sonicx]

75. Yes, it is. Someone earlier made the right comparison...

This is the church version of 'don't ask, don't tell.'

[NickB79]

59. Check Post #9: the Vatican is making this ruling

Flynn is following and enforcing it.

"Rainbow sash wearers are purposely distracting people from concentrating on the purpose of the Mass and that's just wrong."

What exactly is the purpose of Mass again? Studying and understanding God's teachings to us. And what is the most important lesson God taught us? That He loves us, and for us to love each other, no matter who they are. Where does Jesus say to shun and turn away gay people or people who support them?

Wearing the sashes isn't distracting people from the purpose of Mass: it is forcing them to realize the true meaning of it. It is a small rainbow ribbon on their shirt, how distracting is that? The only ones who would be distracted by this are those who are not following the teachings of God, because God told us to welcome all who come to Him for forgiveness. If they aren't loving their neighbors as Jesus taught, why should they recieve communion either?

[Zhade]

124. BEST POST IN THE THREAD.

You destroy the bullshit "disruption" apologia from DUers who have no business claiming they support human rights.

Very, very well-said. And I'm an atheist, even.

:yourock:

[Malva Zebrina]

42. the news today of religious

A minister in NC throws out long standing members because they are Democrats. He said he would do it again unless those members publically confess and seek forgiveness or some such.

It is OK for the Catholic church to threaten the faithful with "sin" and removal of the sacrament by making it known, with all the attendance of the media, Kerry would be refused the sacrament because of his stance on abortion. Now, they are telling gays to remove a symbolic scarf and apologists here insist it is the fault of the gays because they "disrupt" the sacred mass--those filthy gays and gay supporters have some nerve wanting to receive a sacrament they hold dear to their believing hearts while wearing a rainbow scarf. Guess they got put into their place, eh. If the ladies in pink wore their pink dresses to communion, I wonder if they would be asked to remove it before communion would be given to them.

Given the approach by these two religious--I almost think the minister more honest than the Catholic Archbishop, who threatens his congregations with hell and damnation, sin and punishment, if they vote for Kerry or anyone else who is fair minded according to the law, in this regard. At least to me, the minister's decree was far less insidious than the cloaked threats made by the Catholic church.

I think that the gays have broken an accepted barrier--that is peaceful, passive non violent protest over how their church has demeaned, ridiculed and condemned them for merely being who they are. I think Protests or statements made like this should be done more in the church instead of meekly sitting in a pew unable to voice any opinion or stand up to a sermon because of the "sacredness" and "holiness" of the place and it's rituals.

[katinmn]

45. I started a discussion in the MN forum

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=160x10124

[dhinojosa]

46. Well the church needs to surrender gay artwork (Michealangelo, et al)

Another DU member had that idea, and if the Catholic religion wants to enforce then they need to surrender all their artwork to a museum.

[panzerfaust]

47. Not the Pope - the IRS

This is a political issue.

Tax law prohibits tax-exempt organizations from engaging in politics.


http://www.irs.gov/compliance/enforcement/article/0,,id=106778,00.html

If you suspect or know of an individual or company that is not complying with the tax laws, report this activity. Reports of suspected tax fraud can be made by phone, mail or your local IRS walk-in office.
By phone:

You can contact the IRS toll free at 1-800-829-0433.

[bettyellen]

51. if the point is to discriminate against gay right supporters then, yes....

they should lose tax exempt status.

[cap]

48. if gayness is a sin...

why cant it be treated like any other sin... Confess it on Sat. Go to Communion on Sun. Relapse into "sinfulness". Repeat the process next Sat.

Catholicism is founded on forgiveness.... We forgive anybody everything

[leesa]

50. I'm sure Jesus would be pleased.

[Barkley]

57. Did Jesus ban Judas from the Last Supper?

"Do this in rememberance of me..."
"What so ever you do to the least of these you do unto me..."
"Father forgive them for the know not what they do..."

[UrbScotty]

52. I guess "Love one another as I have loved you" is overrated, huh? (nt)

[wicket]

58. ASSHOLE!!!

:grr: :grr: :grr:

[pie]

60. you cannot be serious!

[0007]

61. Jesus wouldn't refuse any one Communion!

[DemBones DemBones]

66. Sure He would! Remember when he ran the money-changers out of the

Temple? They were interfering with worship, which is the intent of the rainbow scarf wearers. Remember the woman "caught in adultery"? He stopped the crowd from stoning her but he told her to "Go and sin no more." He did NOT say "Just go living your life according to your feelings." There are other examples, check out the four Gospels.

[0007]

76. Get real!!

[Mandate My Ass]

81. He told her "Go and sin no more"

after he stopped the hypocrites from stoning her, which was well within the law at the time. He obviously demonstrated by this action that sins of the flesh are between the sinner and God.

If, as you say, God loves gays, then there should be no problem with their straight brothers and sisters showing that they love and support gays too. This is the height of hypocrisy.

Disrupting services? Good grief, if the sash was a sign of shame I'm sure it would be allowed, even encouraged. That "disruption" BS sounds eerily similar to the RNC banning democrats from Bush rallies. They're only there to disrupt. :eyes:

[Name removed]

82. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Dogmudgeon]

116. You should double-check that

Jesus drove the money-changers out of the temple because they were defiling the temple. The Catholic parish(es) in question are enforcing an absurd rule based on some vague perceived moral threat. Any problem happens inside their own imaginations.

Yes, it is absurd. Even your version of it -- that it is disruptive -- fails scrutiny. I am quite willing to cut the church slack in my own political view, but the church is doing itself enormous damage with such policies. As much as the rainbow sash advocates for gay Catholics, efforts to ban it are not seen as the inviolable right of the Church to do whatever it wills, but simply to single out and alienate gay Catholics.

The recent selective moral directives issued by the Church seriously undermine its mission, and no amount of "the Church can do whatever it so pleases" will mitigate that. People -- even a good many Roman Catholics -- will not parse this out to the jot and tittle. It appears petty, and it's unnecessary. The Church would do well to eliminate the pettiness and include gay parishoners as it would to any other sinner.

--p!

[Zhade]

126. Oh, but don't you know? GLBTers are defiling the church.

At least, that's the way some DUers apparently see it. It's disgusting.

Good post, my friend.

[Zhade]

125. Post #59 utterly annihilates your "disruption" argument.

The Jesus written about in the bible would NEVER turn his back on people the way you are.

Face it, you don't like gays. At least be honest about your bigotry. Anyone who could compare GLBT persons to money-changers and adulterers clearly has some issues with homophobia.

[revelhag]

131. hmmm

but he didnt say--"now ya cant be hanging around me or going to my church until you stop whoring".

but i do wonder what he would put in the Sunday collection. Or would he just take it and say 'thanks my peeps'.

[Joey Liberal]

70. The Catholic church is a right wing wacko organization

The Catholic church should not be tax expempt.

[Hardknock]

77. That church is wacko anyway.

I don't know why anyone would be a member of a church that sings "god loves all his children" but then outcasts them at the same time. Hypocrites. That's what they are.

[RetroLounge]

80. How long until we see church burnings again.

Wouldn't surprise me a bit.

Fucking Hypocristians.

RL

[Geo55]

83. .......said Harry, as he leeringly gazed at the new alterboy

[JackDragna]

86. To all the homosexuals here on DU..

Get out of the organized religions now. I'm not saying don't be Christians, but these churches abuse you, use you for political gain and treat you like garbage. Don't give them tithe money, don't lend them your time or do anything to improve their status. You deserve better.

[IndianaGreen]

127. The argument can be made that we cannot vote for a Catholic for President

Two mutually exclusive reasons:

1. If the candidate truly believes in his Church, it would be unfair and unethical of us to demand that he breaks with Church teaching on women and GLBTs just to earn our vote, OR

2. If the candidate only pays lip service to the teachings of his Church, how can we trust the candidate to keep his word when he won't do the same to his G-d?

The American Catholic Church has been out of sync with the Vatican since Pope Paul VI banned birth control pills. It will be interesting to see how far the Vatican goes in reigning in American Catholics under its discipline. If we are to use what happened in the Missouri Synod of the Lutheran Church as a predictor, the conservatives will win by driving the moderates out of the Church.

These are tough times for those that don't toe the orthodoxy line!

[sellitman]

89. Isn't organized religion grand?

End of :sarcasm:

[0007]

91. &.....manipulated by organized crime!

[Princess Turandot]

93. I always had the impression that the decision to offer a sacrament..

to someone was within the provence of the individual priest's conscience. Under Catholic beliefs, if a person is 'in a state of grace' they are entitled to receive communion. A priest cannot tell by looking at someone whether they are in a state of grace; that is on the individual's conscience. (Being gay is not a sin; it's sex outside of marriage for gays and straights that is considered a sin.)

I hope that other priests in this diocese have the courage to follow their own consciences and distribute communion to everyone who presents themselves to receive it. The only thing that actually forbids a priest from giving communion to a Catholic would be if the person was ex-communicated. Even Ratzinger's comments on John Kerry were pretty meaningless, because comments do not ex-communicate Catholics: a detailed process does.

[KittyWampus]

95. Clergy Like This Are Really Small. How Narrow Minded Can You Get

[FDR33]

99. Why join?

I don't understand why these people would even want to be apart of the catholic church. They don't need some priest to tell them what they are doing is wrong.

[Robworld]

101. Almost 5 years of Bush

Has taken this country back socially 50 years?

http://www.dumdumgoestothecircus.com/

[Gloria]

105. Also: editor of US Catholic magazine--Reese--finally resigned after

being hassled by Pope Rat for years. Magazine approached abortion, gays from both sides, encouraged discussion.

Not any more!!!! Heard it this AM on the BBC................

[LiberalFighter]

107. Hide the wine and wafers from the other communicants

[w4rma]

108. Catholic leadership has no problem giving Communion to murders and mafia

members.

[4MoreYearsOfHell]

109. IMHO - the gay group is first in bringing

politics into the church...

Let it go...you wanna receive communion? Keep your political stance out of the Mass...

Do not desecrate the celebration of the Eucharist...find another way...

[sonicx]

110. Being gay is not a political stance.

Supporting equality shouldn't be a political stance, either. It should be a given among civilized people. In the UK, all 3 main political parties supported the Civil Partership Bill.

Wearing a sash is not desecration. Enough with the hyperbolies.

[readmoreoften]

111. Wow is going to the grocery store with your spouse political?

Going to the movies, holding hands in the park, picking up his/her medicine from the pharmacy, going to church. How would you like it if every second of your life was politicized?

I'm sure you'll say you'd welcome it, having never experienced it.

[revelhag]

132. yeah sounds like a GREAT celebration

yippiee....who...hoo...rah....rah...r......

[surrey405]

113. i would agree with them...although i am gay myself

See...religion has its own values and such...they obey their religion and keep them...if being gay is not right...they have the right to say that...and its ok if they say no to a gay guy because it says gay on this forehead...its because its against their religion...well, if politicians try to do that...then its wrong..also, i am gay...and i know many religions dont like me...so i just dont go to their church or whatsoever. thats the logic...if you agree with me.

[cap]

114. the gays missed the best Sunday to protest...

the Sunday after Easter is now the Feast of Divine Mercy. Confess, dont sin until communion (go to the special service at 3 pm) and ALL your sins are wiped out since baptism.

If gayness is a sin, well, God has forgiven it on that day. It's hard to deny communion on a day where everyone's sins since the day they were born have been forgiven. It would be hard to deny someone communion on that day.

[Jacobin]

120. Why do people go to a 'church' that kicks them around so badly?

I mean, What in the ever lovin' Fuck?

Start your own, go to one that doesn't tell you you are going to hell for living the life you live.

WHY do people SUPPORT churches that do such godawful things?

Are they masochists?

[Catfight]

135. Because a promise of something in another life absolves a person

of responsibility in reality. So they go to their little churches and listen to little minds preach little ideas about life after one perishes this life, therefore, they never live the life they are living right now. Most 'WARshipers' don't think beyond phrases and one bible liners to rationalize their own hatred of anyone different. They see the word as liner, threatening and ugly, when in reality, the diversity of the world is all around them. Just count how many different species of trees and wild life there are, if this 'god' wanted oneness in the world, I think this 'god' would have created oneness. The reality is, most people like living for another life that may or may not come, and therefore, the don't live a single day on their own.

[babywatson]

128. God, they make me sick.

I hate these hypocrites that preach Christian messages yet treat a whole class of people like demon-seed.

[IndianaGreen]

129. They are all alike!

And you will find them in all religions, always trying to impose their bigotry on everyone else. Somehow the mantle of religion makes bigotry alright to some people. Not me!

[mmonk]

133. I'm personally glad

I'm managing to skip most of the Catholic threads lately as a Catholic (though agnostic member). Should I be kicked out? I dunno, hope not. Anyway, this priest is just dealing with hardasses from the vatican. He'll give them communion and also pass along the garbage they've thrown out to the faithful (of which half will ignore entirely). It's still wrong of the bishops and pope and I can't wait until their time has passed to better clergy. Carry on.

[maxrandb]

136. Be Careful What You Wish for Bishop

If they kick all homosexuals out of the Catholic Church, where will they find priests, or choir directors?

I've been a life-long Catholic, but am converting to Greek Orthodox. It's really the same faith with a little more ceremony and tradition than what the catholic church has become, and yes! The Orthodox faith has some of the same mis-guided views on woman, but I have never seen the Ecumenical Patriarch of the Greek Orthodox Church telling me who I should vote for.

Like the priest at my local Greek Church says, "Who am I to deny anyone communion with Christ?" "it's His calling that you are here today, so I don't care what religion you are, you are welcome to come forward and receive communion"

[gauguin57]

137. Eff the Catholic Church and the homophobic, misogynist horse it rode in on

Seriously. Eff the old men in dresses who run the place. Eff their unchristian attitude toward many of their parishoners. Eff their murder of millions through their attitude toward condoms. Eff their enslavement of women through their attitude toward birth control. Eff their misogyny in not allowing women to be leaders in the church (in the year 2005 for chrissakes). Eff their foot-dragging on the pedophiles in their midst.

And EFF them for this.

-- A PROUD lapsed Catholic