United: Striking workers may be fired

[struggle4progress]

By August Cole, MarketWatch
Last Update: 6:53 PM ET May 6, 2005

SAN FRANCISCO (MarketWatch) <snip>

United (UALAQ: news, chart, profile) is in the process of trying to terminate its pensions and hand them over to the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corp., a move that the carrier says would prepare it to get out of bankruptcy protection.

To combat the move, the Association of Flight Attendants said late last month that it was preparing for a strike or some kind of work disruption if their plan is terminated. The AFA, which represents 20,000 United attendants, calls its brand of strikes and slowdowns CHAOS, an acronym for "Create Havoc Around Our System." <snip>

In a letter to the AFA's general counsel, United's general counsel wrote that it "will discipline -- with reluctance but without hesitation -- up to and including termination, any flight attendant who engages in CHAOS activity." The airline called on the union to drive this point home to its members.

AFA spokeswoman Sara Dela Cruz called United's letter "laughable" and said the union is set for action if need be. <snip>

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story.asp?guid=%7B97D6CA7B-6266-4F56-96F0-B1905B691229%7D&siteid=google

[CountAllVotes]

1. If they go out on strike

I cancel my trip overseas. How do you like this United Airlines? I'm thinking you really do suck you pigs.


UNION YES!

:dem: :kick:

[me b zola]

2. I've been having Reagon flashbacks all day

This a.m. I read a thread about covert arms dealing to Columbia, now this.

Unions & benifit packages are quickly leaving the American landscape, as is the middle class. Everyday is another outrage.

[Turn CO Blue]

3. OMG! OMG! If either happens - if they strike or they get fired --

and United ceases service in Denver -- then the city of Denver is effing toast as is the entire state of Colorado!

And my own medium-sized low-cost Denver-based airline will be swamped and forced by the Department of Transportation to provide service at a HUGE, HUGE INCALCULABLE loss (which will absolutely RUIN us (and me))!

United's problems hurts all the other carriers...all airlines are linked in this!

NO STRIKE! NO FIRING! NO CESSATION OF FLIGHT SERVICE!

Have they all lost their minds?

[Jensen]

4. And NOOOOOOOOOOOO killing of "Our" pensions!!!!!!

The only sacred COW is this United Airlines CEO who dares give himself and his pack of pigs a bonus while this company is in bankruptcy.

[CountAllVotes]

11. and YEEESSSSS !!!

HONOR THE DAMN CONTRACT!

:kick:

[Turn CO Blue]

15. They'd have to raise fares to do so! United loses $10M PER DAY!

Did you get that?

United Airlines loses $10 million dollars per day! What kind of business can survive like that?

They'd have to raise fares to honor their pensions, because they're going BROKE -- they have a huge overhead and oil prices are off the chart!

But customers WON'T pay more any more!

You yourself won't pay more for tickets -- I'm certain you shop numerous websites for the LOWEST fare you can find - don't you? That is the heart of the problem isn't it? The Wal-mart mentality of passengers today. THE CUSTOMERS ARE GREEDIER THAN THE CEO'S. They want something for nothing. And if the flight is 10 minutes late -- they whine and bitch for days trying to get free tickets -- which amounts to more money OUT OF THE EMPLOYEE'S pockets!

And the Union bosses are still getting THEIR share of the wages as dues, aren't they?

THERE IS MORE THAN ONE KIND OF GREED!

[LeahD]

18. How true...

People who make very, very good money still want to fly from coast to coast for $199 roundtrip. One airline tries to raise prices $20, none of the other carriers go along, and the prices go back down. The industry is in such trouble..... US Air, United employees, who are retiring now, or are close to retirement, are so screwed.

[Turn CO Blue]

21. I really feel for those people. It used to be one of the best jobs...

but now (sigh).

Somebody is going to have to get gutsy and raise the fares and stick to it -- eventually the others would match.

Just a fair fare price to make up for fair wages and the cost of fuel and providing the service, you know?

I hate it that we are in such trouble! I can't imagine what would happen to the country's economy if two of the majors were to fail at once! It's not just passengers they carry...they carry huge percentages of the US Mail and plenty of freight/cargo.

[Turn CO Blue]

14. There is more than one kind of greed

The customers are just as much a problem as are the incompetent greedy CEO's. And the government has done their share.

Our entire industry is subject to oil prices and the whims of consumers who want to pay Greyhound prices for tip top service and excellent safety.

The customers (including the Liberal ones) do not give a shit that their constant quest to buy cross-country tickets for less than cost are what is killing the UNION, the employees, the industry! Passengers have a Wal-mart mentality.

The average fare for a one-way segment is down to $100. The fuel is worth more than that. So now the airlines all price their fares lower and lower to get top-billing on the big websites -- in order to get any positive cashflow even at a huge loss -- and in order to kill the other airlines in a war of attrition -- and it's the employees who suffer.

There is more than one kind of greed. CONSUMERS WITH THEIR GREED FOR IRRATIONALLY LOW FARES ARE JUST AS GUILTY IN HURTING THE UNIONS AS ARE THE CEO'S.

25 years ago, the average New York to Los Angeles fare was $2200. Today it's around $300. Adjusting for inflation, it's no wonder working for an airline isn't the steady, properous or "glamourous" job it used to be.

[Mairead]

47. This is 'free-market', dog-eat-dog capitalism.

Anyone who supports private-profit capitalism, this is what you're supporting. This is what it comes to.

I have no patience with complaints about customers wanting $1.98 fares. OF COURSE they want the cheapest possible fares! That's not 'greed', that's the 'Free Market' at work.

It's not the business of customers or workers to help keep the airline profitable.

Under capitalism, keeping the airline profitable is the responsibility of the CEOs who instead are busy making sure they personally don't suffer no matter what happens to anyone else.

[merwin]

5. Idle threat. They can't very well fire every flight attendant and still be

in business. The cost of the lawsuits from being fired as well as the training of new employees and the downtime inbetween that will put them pretty well out of business.

[AngryAmish]

33. Hello - They are already bankrupt.

United has a huge disadvantage in that they have one of if not the most old workforce. When workers get older they get more expensive. (I have not been privy to much inside airline info for a while so if I am incorrect please correct me). Anyway, senior pilots cost much more and fly much less. Same with stews. There are a million ways for a flight crew to screw up an airline. United has had some of the worst labor/management relations for many years.

United wants to dump their pensions on the taxpayer through bankruptcy. So, we have to pick our poison.

Scenario #1: Workers at United get less money, airline stays afloat.

Scenario #2: Workers at United do not take a paycut, and the US taxpayer pays their pension.

Scenario #3: United gets liquidated. The airplanes get repainted and continue to fly with other airlines. Everybody gets fired. Employees get rehired at much lower rates.

[high density]

6. Ugh, I'm flying United in a couple of weeks

First trip in three years... Heh, I guess I chose the wrong airline.

[CountAllVotes]

7. me either

I have not attempted to fly since 9/11 and I have a pricey R/T ticket. If they go out, I must honor the picket.

Doesn't appear I'll be going anywhere either.

and no, it is NO IDLE threat!

UNION YES!

:kick:

[Turn CO Blue]

17. They won't have to put in scabs. And you'll still be protected

- but it will be at my personal expense, at least the expense of us at other carriers. Other airlines on the same routing will be forced by the Department of Transportation to honor your "pricey" UA ticket for a mere $25 per segment.

That's far less than the cost of fuel burn to fly a 170-lb person.

THAT WILL PUT THE REST OF US IN FINANCIAL PERIL! But at least the "consumers" of that crappy United Airlines will be protected! /sarcasm

[high density]

23. Well do the lousy airlines want our business or not?

Am I supposed to feel guilty that I paid "only" $450 for a cross country airline ticket on United? Is it better to have my ass in that seat for that price or have the seat go empty? I guess you'd probably rather seen that seat be empty since I'm not flying on your airline. I don't doubt that ticket prices are artificially low, but had the price been $750 or $1000 for the ticket, I probably would have planned a much shorter trip via car instead.

I'm really pissed off at the way UA is treating its workers and I wished I had known this before I booked the ticket with them. Anyhow, here's the logic that went into my purchase, which honestly didn't involve labor relations at all: The airport I fly out of limits my options a bit since it isn't exactly the size of LAX, but besides United my choices were Delta, US Airways, Continental, Northwest, and Independence Air. I decided against US Airways and Independence Air since I thought either (or both) of those could have folded between the time I bought my ticket and took my flight. (I guess UA fits this general mold as well, but they're bigger and clearly have better bankruptcy lawyers so I wasn't worried about them shutting down.) Continental would have been flying me through the shithole that is Newark airport and I decided I didn't want to do that. Northwest's pricing was far above what I was willing/able to pay for this trip. I've had good experiences with Delta in the past, but they had screwed up routing and very early morning timing that didn't fit what I wanted. So in the end I chose the 'crappy' United airlines since they had the best overall offer in my particular case with connecting cities in geographic locations that made sense, decent-sized aircraft, good overall timing of the flights, and it was all for a price I could afford. My purchase wasn't meant as a personal or financial attack on you, it's just the fit that seemed best for the trip I wanted to take. :silly:

[Turn CO Blue]

24. I'm sure that I'm not communicating well.

I didn't mean that your ticket wasn't expensive, I only put quotes around "pricey" because I was quoting your word.

$450 is indeed rather pricey in today's market.

I was trying to reassure you that you will be protected if UA ceases service, due to another gov regulation that is rather unfair to the competition, especially unfair to the smaller competition. And that regulation (of forcing airlines into taking tickets of airlines in cessation for only $25) hurts other airline workers in the long run, by forcing the other carriers to take a loss on a seat.

I do apologize to you for any miscommunication.

[high density]

26. OK, I understand now. That does sound pretty unfair. (NM)

[CountAllVotes]

30. ummmmmmm!

To me $1500 is a PRICEY ticket! I went on this exact same trip in the late 1980s and the cost of the ticket was $499.

:kick:

[sam sarrha]

8. where do the Pensionee's go to get out of bankruptsy.. now theres a law

making them pay it off..?? how do the corporations get away with that.. Ohh.. i forgot , they bribe their corporate whores in the White House the senate and congress... the ones we provide with 6 digit pensions.. :banghead:

[LeftCoast]

9. Looks like United is trying to break the unions

I bet you they've got the whole thing planned out. Virtually force the unions to strike and then fire them and replace them with cheap non-union labor making half as much and no benefits.

[SGBL]

10. Exactly

Most other companies have killed off unions in one way or another. Very few remain, and the neocons want them gone.

[CountAllVotes]

12. other union members

will unite and honor the picket just like I will do. It will screw things up worldwide!

:think:

:kick:

[Turn CO Blue]

16. Replace them with whom? It's pretty much the crappiest job

on the planet! Creepy customers yelling at you all day long? Nobody wants to work for an airline. Also, employees at airlines have to pass a 10-year background check and undergo constant drug tests. Cuts down on the applicants.


And the benefits you mention? The only benefit that mattered was the free travel and it's been disappearing since customers started being able to "shop" online based on the lowest fare. The airlines would rather put a $75 ticketed customer in that seat than an employee flying for free.

[zanne]

31. That old fallacy again?

Just because you wouldn't do that kind of job, doesn't mean other people wouldn't. Stop being an apologist for corporate America.

[Turn CO Blue]

39. You haven't been paying attention

I know all about that job! I work for a competing low-cost carrier.

[LeahD]

19. Remember, Reagan broke the air traffic controllers union! n/t

[IChing]

13. workers of the world

United
against the corporation

[harpo]

20. Airline execs are ignorant, greedy, incompetent boobs...

maybe they should take a hard look at an airline who actually makes money like Southwest...the ONLY airline not to ask us to bail them out!!!!

[Turn CO Blue]

22. First, Southwest treats customers rather like cattle..

Leisure travelers are willing to accept that, but not frequent flyers or business travelers (or tall people), as countless studies of buying habits and focus groups prove. They want amenities and Southwest will NEVER add amenities to their business model. Half a can of pop (not even the whole can). No food (just peanuts). No pillows. No blankets. No TV. No inflight entertainment. No legroom or seatpitch. Moo! Moo! Just. Like. Cattle.

Second, the airline industry is the single most taxed and regulated industry in the world!

Third, there are hundreds of airlines in the country, and most of them did not ask for government help after 9/11- only the medium and majors. Most of the mediums paid the money back within two years, and half of those paid it back within some months.

Fourth, this industry is really, really, really complex.

The overhead is huge (billions of dollars in leased assets - a single plane costing over $35M),
really expensive airport leases,
really expensive insurance,
high liability,
enormous safety concerns,
on-time performance standands,
enormous amounts of records and paperwork
fees,
taxes,
forty-five volumes of government regulations, audited by forty-five different government authorities,
unprecedented security issues,
extremely demanding customers,
often very high wages (the average United pilot makes over $200K per year)
on top of it all, the industry has a terrible reputation for not being "friendly" enough to its consumers.

[harpo]

25. excuses excuses...that's all we ever get from the airlines

How much do the execs at United make per year? How much money did they lose last year?

[Turn CO Blue]

27. UA execs made millions (shame). UA lost BILLIONS (more shame)

They operate at a $10 million loss per DAY!

Well, it will ruin Denver and ruin the industry, but when the execs and all those pilots, mechanics, rampers, ticket agents and flight attendants are out of work -- I won't be surprised.

UA employees won't get their pensions either way! The gov won't cover them.

Nobody's hiring either. What airline is hiring? They're all laying off in this time of crisis. The execs were greedy, but the UA unions are almost as bad. Greedy bastards on both sides of the table. Those pilots can shove their $250K salaries for all I care. Like they're worth many times more than other employees ...

[harpo]

28. they can go work at the new CIA site ;)

[Turn CO Blue]

29. Hmmm. Pilots are used to working only 4-5 hours per day

and used to:
acting like prima-donnas, getting paid 5 times what they're worth, getting drunk on the way home from work, ordering people around...

Yep. They'll fit in just fine there.

[zanne]

32. Okay--at least now you're getting more honest.

Pilots act like "prima-donnas, want to get paid more than they're worth, and drink alot". Ahem. I think your true colors are showing.

[Turn CO Blue]

40. My true colors are that I work for an airline and have for a long time

Yes. And I do have a bias against PILOTS. Here's a sweeping generalization for you -- pilots are very aggressive Type-A chauvanistic personality-types.

I happen to know many, many pilots, and at least half of them come from military backgrounds and they all vote repuke. At our pilot training facility, the cars all have B/C 04 and W stickers ! The younger generation of pilots NEVER VOTE DEMOCRATIC and only support unions during negotiation time. They sure as hell don't support the other unions at my airline -- in fact they work against them.

[LeahD]

44. I know two pilots that voted for Kerry.

You see, some pilots actually understand that they're "labor."

[LeahD]

43. H-m-m-m...

Sometimes pilots have 10-12 hour duty days--- have to include early check in before flight, ground time between flights.

[Turn CO Blue]

45. That would be an FAA violation for a pilot.

[LeahD]

46. Reference was to duty time not flight hours

from ALPA web site:

Federal Aviation Regulations (FARs) limit the number of hours that airline pilots can fly. Pilots flying passengers domestically within continental U.S. are typically limited to 8 hours flight time per day, 30 hours per week, 100 per month, and 1,000 per year. Pilots flying domestic cargo may accumulate up to 48 flight hours at the controls per week.

It is important to recognize that these "flight time" limits do not include non-flying time spent preparing for a flight, time spent while passengers and bags, or cargo, is loaded or unloaded, and time spent while the airplane is serviced, or spent completing mandatory pre-flight and post-flight procedures and paperwork. All of these mandatory "non-flight" activities, together with actual "flying time," constitute a pilot’s total time at work, or "duty time." Domestic pilots are generally limited to 16 hours total duty time per day. Tests have shown, however, that when duty time exceeds 12 and extends to 16 hours, performance becomes impaired due to fatigue to the same extent as if pilots had exceeded the legal blood alcohol limit of 0.04 per cent. ALPA believes current scientific and fatigue research has established that 12 hours maximum on duty should be the regulatory limit for most circumstances.

[reprobate]

36. WOW, what a ringing endorsement of the success of capitalism.

Which to me contains the seed of it's own destruction: GREED!

[rfkrfk]

38. jet fuel tax, US, four cents a gallon

what are you talking about?

>single most taxed and regulated industry in the world!<

international jet fuel tax is zero. zilch, not a penny, nothing.
jet fuel tax, US, is FOUR CENTS a gallon

WTF are you talking about?

the twenty bucks of misc. ticket excise tax is nothing
compared to the subsidies that airlines get.

[Turn CO Blue]

41. I know exactly what I'm talking about. It's you who's not familiar

with the industry. It's not just federal taxes I'm talking about - it the city/county/state taxes too for the local airport authority. Read up on it.

I honestly can't name ANY effing subsidy at all that my airline gets -- we pay our freakin' income taxes just like every other business in Denver, plus we pay a whopping sales tax!

Every time an airline brings in an airline part into a city - every time they bring in cargo, every time they haul US Mail -- they pay 8% to 12% of the aircraft part/cargo or mail to the city/county authority over that airport. On a $2million engine - you do the effing math!

Just look at your next ticket in fare calculation line. There is a 7.8% sales tax. There is a security tax of $2.50 per segment. Then there are landing taxes ($3.50 to $4.50 per segment)

The average ticket price contain 20 to 45% taxes.

And don't get me started about regulations. The Code of Federal Regulations that covers the airline industry and the security stuff covers reams and reams of paper!

[rfkrfk]

42. what about the zero tax on international jet fuel, don't you get?

The nickle n dime taxes, you discuss, are nothing.

Do you own a private car, in the US?
and pay road taxes?

is so, you effectively incur more tax liability
travelling your driveway, than it takes
to fuel a 747 flying from London to Sydney.

[reprobate]

35. you just described all corporate managers. Isn't it time to return to

airline regulation. I know that's a dirty word now, but it did provide a ticket for a fair price, fair to the customer and fair to the airlin.

Ticket price was based on the acrual cost of providing travel plus a fair and regulated profit for the airline. Air travel was treated like a utility, and communities who needed service got service.

In my experience it was deregulation that marked the decline of quality in air travel.

Ane let me suggest that only reregulation will save the airline industry, which in these days of Peak OIL will disappear without some intervention. Can we afford a nation without commercial air travel? After all, there is essentially no passenger rail to speak of. What's left, automobiles? Personnally I wouldn't want to be on the roads in those conditions.

[Zorra]

34. Well, if they do, everyone should boycott them. There are other airlines

out there.

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

37. General Strike anyone?

I think it time we take a page from our European friends and all stay home on the same day..................