Breaking - Two F-18s Feared Down in Iraq

[RamboLiberal]

CNN Website:

A search is under way for the crews of two U.S. Marine fighter jets lost while on an Operation Iraqi Freedom mission.

http://www.cnn.com/

MSNBC Website:

Two Navy F-18s feared down in mid-air collision in Iraq

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/

[DoYouEverWonder]

1. Haven't lost any F-18s before?

Of course, the Iraqis had nothing to do with shooting it down. Nah, no way. :sarcasm off:

[hatrack]

2. Excuse me, but what in Iraq is there to bomb?

Are the insurgents operating airstrips, power plants or weapons factories?

Didn't think so . . .

[Briar]

7. There's constant bombing

but the western media doesn't report it.

[saigon68]

43. They can blow up a couple of Orphanages and an old folks home

Shit these's plenty of elderly rag heads to Napalm and Fry to a crisp </sarcasm>

[nguoihue]

55. bombing targets

Don't forget the wedding parties

[Barkley]

92. Q: Why are there no WAL*MARTs in Iraq?

A: Because there's a TARGET on every corner.

[saigon68]

111. LOL KICK

[KansDem]

94. Besides, less bombing means smaller war profits...

Halliburton and the Bush Family wouldn't like that.

http://www.costofwar.com/

[The_Casual_Observer]

8. Columns of tanks, bunkers, missile silos, all the usual terrorist

fortifications. Don't you know anything?:+

[NNN0LHI]

11. And an occasional wedding n/t

[olddad56]

41. I've gotten bombed at many a wedding.

[Eloriel]

112. And the winner is ....

I am STILL laughing out loud, ready to roll right out of my chair.

[catastrophicsuccess]

18. Don't forget

Weddings, journalists, etc...

[screembloodymurder]

22. Iran

and that explains the collision.

[leftofthedial]

37. there are reportedly still a few children left alive and unmaimed

in parts of Iraq.

[Straight Shooter]

40. "A few children left alive and unmaimed." Much truth in that.

x(

[Henny Penny]

67. al jazeera outposts...

recently freed hostages...

[Doctor_J]

99. There's daily bombing according to Sy Hersch

In defense our our field commanders, WTF else are they going to do? If we try to fight them on the ground, our casualties will rise exponentially. Too bad the Il Dunce' never read a book about Viet Nam, or he would realize that this isn't going to work either.

[goodhue]

108. Lots of stuff

Particularly homes with people, some of whom may be suspected bad guys. Plus we've been going into Iran some. If we didn't bomb, then how would we keep up all that collateral damage?

[Algorem]

3. .

[Roon]

4. Two Navy F-18s feared down in mid-air collision in Iraq

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/

[stevedeshazer]

5. Yikes

Not good.

[NeoConsSuck]

6. CNN Breaking News says..

.A search is under way for the crews of two U.S. Marine fighter jets lost while on an Operation Iraqi Freedom mission. Details soon

CNN must constantly drill home that everything done in Iraq is for freedom.

I think it should have read:

A search is under way for the crews of two U.S. Marine fighter jets lost while on an Operation Drain Iraqi Oil mission. Details soon

[nolabels]

63. Operation Iraqi Freedom

http://www.antiwar.com/news/?articleid=2444

BERLIN LYRICS

"Masquerade"

The painted faces on the street
caricatures of long ago
oh they were young and oh so sweet
down beyond the boulevard
knock on doors and empty halls
and still sometimes remember
the masquerade's forever

when you see the price they paid
i'm sure you'll come and join the masquerade

the reeling figurtes pass on by
like ghosts in some forgotten play
beneath the black and empty sky
music plays and figures dance
with partners chosen by chance
and still some times remember
the masquerade's forever

they reached for tomorrow
but tomorrows, more of the same
so they reached for tomorrow
but tomorrow never came

when you hear the price they paid
i'm sure you'll come and join the masquerade

one by one and two by two
past eight by tens in shattered frames
the players try to leave the room
frantic puppets on a string
and all the while the music sings
and still sometimes remember
the masquerade's forever

http://www.lyricscafe.com/b/berlin/masquerade.html

[Doctor_J]

100. I prefer Operation I Like Wearing A Flight Suit

[kenny blankenship]

110. New Network Graphic For Iraq

...and as you can see from the map, much of "southern Iraq" is just south of western Iran, as well as being south of northern Iraq. Up in the air it all looks the same. I wouldn't be too surprised to hear that our two young Navy aviators experienced "engine trouble" over Iraq but then the uh...prevailing winds, or a sandstorm or something, caused their wreckage to get scattered somehow on the other side of the border. All very innocently.

[leftchick]

12. From the link.. wtf? Mid air collision in the Desert?

I am sorry. This makes no sense so far...

WASHINGTON - Navy officials said Friday that two F-18 fighter jets apparently were involved in an "air-to-air collision" over southern Iraq. There was no immediate word on the fate of the crew members.

The officials, who spoke with NBC News on condition of anonymity, said there was "no initial indication that hostile fire" contributed to the loss of the aircraft.

The fighter jets, based on the aircraft carrier USS Carl Vinson, were reported missing at 10:10 p.m. local time, four hours after they were due to return from their mission.

A statement by the military said search efforts were under way and that the status of the crew members was unknown.

[Jacobin]

14. They fly in formation and air to air collisions happen

with some regularity.

[leftchick]

28. at night?

I am sorry do be so doubtful. But this misadministration has made me this way. :(

[Zynx]

33. F-18 is all weather, all hours

Night ops are very common.

WIth the speeds they are moving at, if one plane brushes the other, both are going to shatter. And military aircraft tend to fly in very tight formations.

One pilot leans on his stick, or turbulance bounces one aircraft into the other one, or one pilot moves the stick when he looks at his buddy...this sort of thing can happen.

There's a reason almost all midair collisions are in the military.

[DemoTex]

46. Having done that, let me gently correct you. You statement misleads.

I would say: The F-16s fly everywhere in formation (at least they should unless they are on a solo training or recce mission), and mid-air collisions are extremely rare (they are!). The military has a much higher mid-air collision rate than civil aviation, but it is still extremely low relative to all rates a very few years ago.
Know what I mean Vern?

[leftchick]

51. I know whatcha mean Demo!

and thank you for the clarification.

[KansDem]

104. This might sound like a naive question...

but I was never in the military, so I must ask...

Why fly so close in formation if such accidents can happen? Can the planes fly a little farther apart to avoid these kinds of incidents? I would think that planes flying in a looser formation would also make less of a target in the same way troops patrolling in a looser formation would make less of a target if a grenade or land mine should go off.

What is the advantage of flying tight formations?

[Xithras]

19. Have you ever been in extreme turbulence?

I was once in a jet that hit turbulence and "fell" several hundred feet, pretty much out of control of the pilot. Turbulence can roll jets on their sides, cause them to gain altitude, and do all kinds of other nasty things. Now imagine hitting turbulence like that and having another jet sitting 25 feet off your left wing. Collisions happen with some regularity in the military for this reason, and dozens of others.

[mmonk]

48. Traffic over Iraq must be tough

[catastrophicsuccess]

9. AP wire

The Associated Press
Monday, May 2, 2005; 6:52 PM

BAGHDAD, Iraq -- The U.S. military said Tuesday it had lost contact with two jets flying in support of operations in Iraq.

The status of the two U.S. Marine F/A-18 Hornet aircraft and their crew was not immediately known, the military said in a statement.

Contact was lost at 10:10 p.m. Monday, the statement said. There were no initial indications of hostile fire in the area at the time.

Search efforts were underway, the military said. No further information was released.

[NIGHT TRIPPER]

10. so clueless they "lost" 2 jets? & don't know if they were shot down?

yep, somone's lost.
Who's running this circus?
No one seems to have a clue where half of those "billions" of taxpayer dollars went either...but no search is underway for that.

Idiots.

[CoffeeCat]

16. The Iraq war is not a circus...

We took our children to the circus last weekend.

The circus was exactly as we expected. It was worth the money we paid. There was no false advertising involved. We got what we expected, and no one lied to get us in the door.

The Iraq war is not a circus.

That statement is an insult to circuses all over the world.

How can you defile the Shriners like that?

:)

[NIGHT TRIPPER]

25. Chimps are in the Circus-- this is a Circus of Death- a Sadistic Circus

Don't send your children there--We have Clowns that love to inflict pain and death and destruction.
Circus of the killer klowns--Featuring a Chimp (commander in Chimp)
How many dead thus far?
Grab your peanuts and tell me "my" statement is an "insult" to circuses--
It's our Ring Leaders who created the Greatest Blunder on Earth.

It's a laugh --ha ha ha--200 thousand dead Iraqi civilians!
Ha Ha Ha....
Think that's ok?
I don't.
The blood is on your hands and the hands of everyone welse who supports this insane Clown in charge of our country!

[confludemocrat]

53. fuckin right

Couldn'a said it better myself. A colossal fuckup for the ages, borne of lies, fueled with senseless killing and corruption for an ever-shifting panoply of flimsy bullshit justifications all carried forward on a wave of stupidity and mass irrationality that rivals the delusional acquiescence of the German masses during WW2. All for national pride and hubris and our "rightness".

Makes you sick

[pie]

95. You have a wonderfully cynical sense of humor

Gris Gris

[htuttle]

13. The sky is very big

What a coincidence that two F-18's would attempt to occupy the same space at the same time.

[benburch]

17. GPS navigation makes some flying more dangerous.

If two planes are lost in bad visibility and trying to fly the same course, there is a good chance that they will fly EXACTLY the same course, within a few feet.

[Zynx]

32. One might have gone right while the other went left

Stupid military aviation accidents do happen, and fairly frequently.

This sounds like two wingmen took each other out with their aircraft.

[johnfunk]

15. Maybe they defected to Monaco

Heck, no taxes!

[NorthernSpy]

20. those things have ejector seats, right?

So there's a chance that the people who were on those planes are still alive, I think.

[Renew Deal]

26. A pilot was found in Serbia a couple weeks after he went down.

It was around 2 weeks of survival in the forest.

[Barrett808]

47. Worst case scenario: pilots captured by insurgency

Then things would be mellow.

[kenny blankenship]

105. Or perhaps, shot down over IRAN

For all we really know, that's where they really were.

[leftchick]

65. yikes! I had a scary thought....

It would indeed be nice if they ejected safely. But what are the chances of them being taken hostage by the resistance? I am not getting good visuals right now. :(

[kenny blankenship]

102. Sure there's a chance BUT

But they also have transponders. Unless they bailed over a hostile territory --oh, like um Iran maybe-- they would surely turn on their transponders to let air rescue know that they are alive and where they are. If the Navy and the rest of the military don't know about the pilot's whereabouts or their status, there's a chance they are alive, but an even better chance that they're dead.

Unless they actually were lost over Iran, and not where they were said to be.

[AwareOne]

21. How many millions does one F-18 cost?

Doesn't matter of course, we'll just borrow more money to replace them.

[catastrophicsuccess]

23. yup its not like Social Security...

Print the fucking money and lets kills some ragheads.




:sarcasm:

[ComplimentarySwine]

24. From the Blue Angels's website:

How much does an F/A-18 cost?

The 1997 basic acquisition price of a single F/A-18 Hornet is approximately $28 million. The cost of additional weapons-related equipment varies according to the configuration and use of each aircraft can significantly increase the total price. (http://www.blueangels.com/faq.shtml)


Compare to a Boeing 737 that is reported to cost, in 2004 dollars, $44 - $74 million. (http://www.boeing.com/commercial/prices/)

[Renew Deal]

27. Cheap

Only $56 million lost. :shrug:

[nittygritty]

29. give or take several million-

depending on model and/or inflation:



Data below for F/A-18E
Last modified 16 March 2005



HISTORY:
First Flight December 1995
Service Entry

(F-18E) November 1999
(F-18F) 2003


CREW: (F-18E) one: pilot
(F-18F) two: pilot, weapon systems officer


ESTIMATED COST:

(F/A-18E) $57 million <2003$>
(F/A-18F) $59 million <2003$>
(EA-18G) $66 million <2003$>


AIRFOIL SECTIONS:
Wing Root unknown
Wing Tip

unknown


DIMENSIONS:
Length 60.01 ft (18.31 m)
Wingspan 44.71 ft (13.62 m)
Height 15.79 ft (4.82 m)
Wing Area 500 ft2 (46.45 m2)
Canard Area

not applicable


WEIGHTS:
Empty 30,600 lb (13,880 kg)
Typical Load unknown
Max Takeoff 66,000 lb (29,935 kg)
Fuel Capacity internal:
(F-18E) 14,400 lb (6,530 kg)
(F-18F) 13,550 lb (6,145 kg)
external: 9,780 lb (4,435 kg)
Max Payload

17,750 lb (8,050 kg)


PROPULSION:
Powerplant two General Electric F414-400 afterburning turbofans
Thrust 44,000 lb (195.72 kN) with afterburner


PERFORMANCE:
Max Level Speed at altitude: 1,190 mph (1,915 km/h) at 40,000 ft (12,190 m), Mach 1.8
at sea level: unknown
Initial Climb Rate unknown
Service Ceiling 50,000 ft (15,240 m)
Range typical: 1,200 nm (2,225 km)
ferry: 1,660 nm (3,055 km)
Endurance unknown
g-Limits unknown


ARMAMENT:
Gun one 20-mm M61A1/A2 Vulcan cannon
Stations nine external hardpoints and two wingtip rails
Air-to-Air Missile AIM-7 Sparrow, AIM-9 Sidewinder, AIM-120 AMRAAM
Air-to-Surface Missile AGM-65 Maverick, AGM-84 Harpoon, AGM-84 SLAM, AGM-84 SLAM-ER, AGM-88 HARM, AGM-154 JSOW
Bomb GBU-10/12/24 Paveway laser-guided, GBU-29/30/31/32/35 JDAM, Mk 82/83/84 GP
Other ECM pods, SHARP reconnaissance pod, rocket pods, mines


KNOWN VARIANTS:
F/A-18E One-seat Super Hornet with enlarged fuselage allowing much larger fuel capacity, improved radar, greater payload, and greater stealth characteristics; 244 to be built
F/A-18F Two-seat version of the Super Hornet; 304 to be built
EA-18G Electronic warfare platform based on the F-18F airframe to provide jamming escort capability


KNOWN COMBAT RECORD:

Afghanistan - Operation Enduring Freedom (USN, 2001-present)
Iraq - Operation Southern Watch (USN, 2002-2003)
Iraq - Operation Iraqi Freedom (USN, 2003-present)


KNOWN OPERATORS:

United States (US Navy)


http://www.aerospaceweb.org/aircraft/fighter/f18ef/

[AwareOne]

30. Wow! So thats about $100,000,000 worth of junk strewn across

the desert. I hope the pilots ejected, I don't mean to be callus about the possible loss of life. I can just picture some Iraqi standing with his foot on the detached engine holding his WWII surplus rifle over his head like he just shot it down.

[NeoConsSuck]

36. Don't worry..

once that Iraqi SUV juice starts flowing, we'll get that money back </sarcasm>

[bvar22]

31. The cost of a few F-18s

is nothing compared to the overall cost of the Iraqi War to the US taxpayers.

More money for the Republican War Machine

Less money for healing the sick and feeding the poor.

And these assholes have the NAKED AUDACITY to claim Christian values.

Jesus Weeps every time a Republican gets elected!!

[DrDebug]

60. But you can't bomb any terrorist 'hotspots' in a 737

It's only military purpose is to fly into World Trade Centers :sarcasm:

[Doctor_J]

101. That's pretty good value

I worked at a place that made them 20 years ago, and they were $30M then.

[RetroLounge]

34. My thoughts go out to the pilots and their families

My middle finger goes out to bush** and his clan.

RL

[progressivebydesign]

64. My thoughts are with the families, as well... nt

[cliss]

35. It appears that

the Iraqis or someone on the ground has figured out how to bring down our F-18's. Think of how many heli's have come down in the past few months.

I would suspect Russian assistance on the ground, or possibly Iranian technical people. Maybe they have infra-red detectors, or heat-seeking devices that can zero in on these aircraft.

Heli's are one thing, but F-18's are a completely different animal.

The statistics on this are daunting. I'm sure the Pentagon knows, but it won't divulge.

[Zynx]

38. Much more likely they just hit each other

It happens and hasn't happened in Iraq for a while.

[jayfish]

39. I Wouldn't Say They Were Shot...

down just yet. However if you watch the insurgencies latest video, they display a very nice shoulder fired SAM that could do the trick. I hope they haven't learned how to use them.

Jay

[NNN0LHI]

45. I would not say that just yet

Though I would not be shocked to find out that Putin has began supplying the Iraqis with some type of assistance (SAMs maybe?) to repay the USA for providing Osama bin Laden and the Afghan mujahideen Stingers and other weaponry in Afghanistan during the 1980's. Wouldn't surprise me one bit.

Boosh trusts Putin, but I sure don't.

Don

[jayfish]

57. He Does Lament The Collapse...

or the USSR and was deeply entrenched in it's inner workings. Sounds like the obvious thing to do for a sour man bent on revenge.

Jay

[Richard Steele]

52. aaaaaand....CHINA, anyone? Bueller?

They have developed EVERYTHING we have: Nukes. ICBMs to carry nukes. A capitalist economy.
They just BOUGHT IBM's computer division.

Their 'Silkworm' SAMs are currently the STATE of the Art...best bang/buck ratio on the market!
They are probably going to be on the MOON decades before we get back there........

The only thing we HAVE NOT seen from China is: Shoulder-launched seeker-missles which can take down a fighter jet.

We have them, the USSR had them...and many thousands of BOTH models disappeared from view decades ago.

So were these jets taken out by one of the THOUSANDS of 'Stingers' we handed out like CANDY in Afghanistan...
or some ex-Soviet yard sale surplus...

Or does the People's Republic have another groundbreaking product in Beta Testing?

[Renew Deal]

54. It's unlikely

but not impossible. It is incredibly difficult to take down a jet, especially 2 jets. We have to see if this keeps happening. Of course, that's how everything turned around in Afghanistan. They were able to take down Soviet helicopters.

[NNN0LHI]

59. They weren't only downing Soviet helicopters.

If my memory serves me Soviet MIGs began falling out of the sky pretty regularly too.

Don

[cliss]

61. OK. I agree.

We'll chalk this one down to "mysterious circumstances". Keep it in the back of our mind.

We'll just keep a tally of the heli's downed, and any other fighter aircraft.

It seems that if someone is using sophisticated weaponry, there will be more. I hope not, but this will repeat.

[deadparrot]

42. US military loses contact with two jets over Iraq (link)...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/usiraqmilitary

Fuck.

[Contrary1]

44. How many crewman are usually on an F-18 ? n/t

[Frederik]

49. one pilot

and, for some versions of the plane, a weapons guy too.

[Pepperbelly]

50. 1 per plane. nt

[Ilsa]

56. Oh, you know, those flyboys have to have some target practice

every few days! They used to go scaring (buzzing) cattle on the big ranches in Texas, but this is much more fun! :sarcasm:

[Imagevision]

58. Section Front • Section Front U.S. Military: Two Jets Missing

(CBS/AP) The U.S. military has lost contact with two jets flying in support of coalition operations in Iraq, military officials said.

The status of the two U.S. Marine F/A-18 Hornet aircraft and their crew was not immediately known, the military said in a statement. Contact was lost at 10:10 p.m. Monday, a statement said. There were no initial indications of hostile fire in the area at the time.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/02/24/iraq/main541815.shtml?CMP=OTC-RSSFeed&source=RSS&attr=HOME_541815

Last week a private helicopter was downed by a missle attack

[daleo]

62. How's the weather? another sandstorm?

Why fly in a tight formation when your main threat is kids throwing rocks from the ground (well maybe an AK-47 burst too)? And why use F-18s against a few dead enders? Were they anywhere near a border (Iran, Syria)?

[DoYouEverWonder]

66. One pilot confirmed killed

At least one US Marine Corps pilot has died and another is missing after two F/A-18 Hornet jets crashed in Iraq.

The planes are thought to have been involved in a mid-air collision in bad weather on Monday evening, reports say.

A US military spokesman said the planes had been flying too high to have been shot down by hostile fire.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4507609.stm

[llmart]

68. Man.........

those musta been some bad pilots!

(tee hee tee hee - Bush type humor)

[lovuian]

69. Two U.S. Hornet jets collide in mid air over Iraq

http://feeds.bignewsnetwork.com/?sid=f3e056f37483d911

The U.S. Marine Corps has lost two F/A-18 jets in bad weather over Iraq, fearing they collided.

A rescue and recovery mission was launched after
the aircraft carrier USS Carl Vinson lost contact with the planes about 10:10 p.m. (2:10 p.m. ET), a statement from military officials said.

The mission of the planes was described by authorities as routine. "There was no indication of hostile fire in the area at the time contact was lost," the statement said without disclosing the location of the planes.

If confirmed that the planes collided it will the third such collission by hornets in the past 18 months.

The Boeing F/A-18 Hornets cost US $35 million each and are all-weather fighter and attack aircraft, usually manned by one or two person crews

more...

What the hell is wrong with these hornets that our pilots keep colliding this is horrible!!!

[beam me up scottie]

70. R.I.P.

Devildogs.

[surrey405]

71. its a sad thing for two reasons.

one is definitely for the pilots, if something happened to them...hope things go well with his family...other sad thign is i cannot find any reason to blame Bush for this...anyone can find a reason...i would be more than happy.
thanks DUers

[bluestateguy]

73. Well

one is definitely for the pilots, if something happened to them...hope things go well with his family...other sad thign is i cannot find any reason to blame Bush for this...anyone can find a reason...i would be more than happy.
thanks DUers

If they were not sent over there in the first place--to a war fought on false pretenses and lies--they would likely still be alive today.

So yes, I blame George W. Bush for anything bad that happens to any serviceperson over there, seeing as how it likely would not have happened to him had Bush not sent them there in the first place.

[flordehinojos]

75. those planes would not have been flying over iraq, (and therefore would

probably not have collided) if bush had not invaded and occupied iraq.

i think that is reason enough to blame him for what happened.

in the end, those soldiers' blood is on his hands.

[Stand and Fight]

76. Hiss....

Cannot find any reason to blame Bush for this?

How about the dammed war that he lied this country into? How about the logical conclusion that if he hadn't started this fool crusade many servicemen -- like these pilots -- would be alive?

Cannot find any reason to blame Bush for this?!? Please... :eyes:

[thebigidea]

77. talk about disingenuous... phew.

[The_Casual_Observer]

81. Nah, chimp's paws are clean on this one for sure.

However, it's too god damn bad he wasn't in the back seat of one of them at the time wearing his codpiece and goofy smirk!

[RetroLounge]

87. No reason to blame Bush for this?

Who the fuck do you think you're kidding?

:eyes:

RL

[NNN0LHI]

89. My guess would be himself

Because no one else around here is drinking that Kool-Aid.

Don

[lectrobyte]

96. Uh, if * hadn't lied us into a war, lots of dead people might still

be alive... Remember the State of the Union speech a few years ago? Condi's mushroom cloud remark? Colin Powell at the UN? If not Bush, then who else bears the blame?

[Ms. Clio]

97. Pobrecito

No need to be sad. There's plenty of reasons to blame Bush for this and every other debacle stemming from his illegal invasion of a harmless nation--just see below.

Feeling better now?

[Maple]

72. Your pilots

do not 'keep colliding'

[NIGHT TRIPPER]

74. I thought they "lost" the planes- maybe tcheck the lost and found

Whoever's running this "circus" doesn't have a clue.
"losing" 28 million dollar planes..
maybe they collided?
maybe?
well maybe hostile fire is as good a "maybe" when you don't know anything.

And everyone who signs up to fly or drive or shoot for the gang that couldn't shoot straight should realize just who've they've entrusted their safety to.

I feel sympathetic toward those killed and their families-they obvioulsy didn't know what they were gettiing into. It's our job to spread awareness of the truth to prevent people from supporting things they should oppose.
-Truth isn't popular on the "corporate"evening news.

[Stand and Fight]

78. Did you read the article?

The planes are $35 million each... Not 28 million.
Furthermore, your comments are offensive in regards to our brave servicemen and women. "And everyone who signs up to fly or drive or shoot for the gang that couldn't shoot straight should realize just who've they've entrusted their safety to." That is a damn fool thing to say -- damn arrogant and completely dismissive of the feelings of those who have served and the family members lost to grieve over loved ones lost in this foolish charade, this War of Terror. How dare you? You may follow it up with the comment of feeling sympathetic, but how sympathetic do you really feel saying such things as the aforementioned? Nonetheless, you are right that we should spread awareness of the truth -- that is, the illegality of this war and the lies which lead to it.

[Erika]

79. More dead Americans

And Bush sent them over there.

[Stand and Fight]

80. Yes, and one life is just as bad as what is quickly approaching 1600. n/t

[tuckessee]

93. Don't forget that

there are Iraqis in Iraq and those po' wittle brave American soldiers and airmen are killing them by the bushel.

At the time of the collision, those pilots might have been hootin' and hollerin' at "smokin' some hajis". Regardless, their job that night was to kill natives.

Bush (with the House's drooling approval) may have sent the military to Iraq, but they willingly went and seem to relish in their job of killing and torturing Iraqis while destroying the locals' property and tearing the social fabric of a once prosperous nation into shreds.

[beam me up scottie]

103. Wow.

"those po' wittle brave American soldiers and airmen"

"those pilots might have been hootin' and hollerin' at "smokin' some hajis""

"seem to relish in their job of killing and torturing Iraqis"

I had no idea you knew every man and woman serving in Iraq and what every one of them is thinking.

How on earth do you find time to post on this board?

[beam me up scottie]

82. Thank you.

nt

[atreides1]

84. I do Sympathize and pray for the families

But as a former soldier who was taught to think outside of the box, the military is in this not only because of Bush and his crowd of wackos, but because their chain of command for the most part don't give a rat's ass about the troops.

And don't look for those generals and admirals to begin to care about the troops under their command, they all have their tickets punched now and all it cost them were almost 1600 military personnel
and possibly over 100,000 Iraqis and Afghans.

Look at Tommy Franks, he retired at the right time, he got his little medal of freedom, and wrote a book. Once General Myers steps
down you can bet he'll be getting a nice high paying consulting job
with a corporation that's already in bed with the Bush Cabal.

And now, defying what has been a long standing tradition, the new
Joint Chiefs Chairman is going to be a Marine, not just any Marine, no. Good old General Pace, the man whose head is so far up Rumsfeld's
ass, that if Rummy turned a corner too fast, Pace would break his neck.

Those pilots don't deserve scorn, they thought that they were doing the right thing, the problem is that throughout history many military
people thought they were doing the right thing.

The Romans Siege of Masada, The Crusades, Wounded Knee, Sand Creek, the Spanish American War, WWII(I'm sure the German, Italian, and Japanese soldiers thought they were doing the right thing), My Lai, and let's not forget Kent State.

And those are just a few periods in history when the military thought it was doing the right thing. And now once again the US military really believe's that they are doing the right thing.

The real problem is that what they are doing isn't right, and yet they still do it. But when you're morals are superficial, I guess it really doesn't matter does it.

Personally I hope they find the crews of both F/A 18's, alive and well, so they can get back home to their families, but I have a bad feeling it isn't going to happen.

[Stand and Fight]

107. I agree with your post.

You're not the only former military member on the board by the way. I'm a veteran myself, and I still don't like the tone of attacking our men and women in uniform -- especially when they are possibly dead and there is no evidence WHATSOEVER that they engaged in any wrong-doing. The poster has the right to express his opinion, and I have the right to call it foolish. To insinuate that the pilots are somehow responsible for their fate while at the same time saying you pray for their safety -- as the poster in question did, not you, atreides -- is a clear exercise in the most Orwellian double-speak.

[daleo]

109. Very well spoken, on a difficult subject. n/t

[Massachusetts]

86. "That is a damn fool thing to say "

This is America.....remember! Whether you like what was said or NOT, he has the right to express his opinion (last time I checked).

[DivinBreuvage]

90. Yes, and others have the right to call his opinion foolish.

Contrary to what you seem to believe, the right to speak one's mind does not entitle one to immunity from criticism.

[Stand and Fight]

106. Thank you.

I could not have said it any better myself.

[NIGHT TRIPPER]

113. did you read my post at all?

you're a Damn Fool yourself!
And I have a link that proves they're 28 million dollars.
Why the hell would I write 28 if I thought the 35 was correct?
I have no sympathy for peeople like YOU.
As for soldiers, I stated already, it's not their fault they signed up with the ass hat circus-
These leaders haven't got a clue on how to invade and take over foriegn countries.,
Isn't that Obvious?
200 thousand innocent civilians dead and they STILL can't control the situation?
Hilter knew how to do it better than these rich pig filthy oil mongers-and even he failed in the end.
These soldiers are working for the corporations and don't even know it.
And it appears you don't know it either.

Join'm if you'd like...they're short on recrutiment quotas..they could use a good "yes" man.

[Stand and Fight]

114. Don't say this often, but

WHATEVER

[lovuian]

83. I just hope the military is going to fix the problems

cause to keep sending this men out in these Hornets is stupid if there is a problem!!!

[DulceDecorum]

85. GPS jammers

JANUARY 17, 2003 (COMPUTERWORLD) - Government officials and communications experts are assessing the public safety and security implications of a newly posted online article that provides directions for making cheap devices that can jam Global Positioning System (GPS) signals.
http://www.computerworld.com/securitytopics/security/story/0,10801,77702,00.html

MARCH 27, 2003 (COMPUTERWORLD) - The U.S. Army awarded $192,000 in contracts in 2002 to a Russian company identified in news reports as a supplier of Global Positioning System (GPS) jamming equipment to Iraq.
Moscow-based Aviaconversiya Ltd. has denied selling the jamming equipment to Iraq, according to the news reports. Officials there couldn't be reached for comment this week, despite repeated attempts by Computerworld to do so.
http://www.computerworld.com/governmenttopics/government/story/0,10801,79783,00.html

REBUTTAL
by George Smith
January 22 - 28, 2003
In light of the story's evident folly, it cannot be ruled out that the "news" was intentionally fostered by the Pentagon. It is well known that employment of jamming immediately reveals the location of the jammer, painting a bull's eye on him. Good news for Uncle Sam's regime-change plans if one gets used on top of the Iraqi presidential command bunker.
http://www.villagevoice.com/news/0304,smith,41341,8.html

Please do not use a Russki jammer.
The Pentagon cannot be held responsible if your jammer causes you to be blown up because the location of you Red Cross warehouse, hospital, or wedding celebration has been identified.
Please also note that two clicks of a mouse will never break past Pentagon redaction.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4506517.stm

[0007]

88. RIP

bRING THE TROOPS HOME NOW!

[MetaTrope]

91. Bush should get in the cockpit and show them how it's done

:freak:

[Doctor_J]

98. ROFL

Yeah, he used to be a pilot, ya know, and when he heard about this crash, he thought, wow, that's one bad pilot.

God, what a loser.