Girl, 13, argues right to abortion ---"Why can't I make my own decision"

[demo dutch]

Let's bring another "unwanted" child into the world!!!

Girl, 13, argues right to abortion
Judge asked to reverse decision by state guardian
Sunsentinel
By John Coté
Staff Writer
Posted April 30 2005

"Why can't I make my own decision?"

That was the blunt question to a judge from a pregnant 13-year-old girl ensnared in a Palm Beach County court fight over whether she can have an abortion.

"I don't know," Circuit Judge Ronald Alvarez replied, according to a recording of the closed hearing obtained Friday.

"You don't know?" replied the girl, who is a ward of the state. "Aren't you the judge?"

Read on...
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/southflorida/sfl-pabortion30apr30,0,700609.story?coll=sfla-home-headlines

[wndycty]

1. What the hell is going on in Florida?

:kick:

[hannah]

81. what's going on in Florida

Jeb Bush, and and his brother, and the republican party's cultural/religious wars!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[fortyfeetunder]

121. Not enough earthquakes

to knock some sense into the so-called government and legislators.

[1monster]

125. I'd like to point out that existing law in Florida allows a minor to get

an abortion without parental permission. In this case the DFC, under Jebbie Bush, is trying to delay this girl's abortion until she is in the second trimester making it more difficult legally and risker to get that abortion.

DFC knows darned well, that had L.G. the time to go though the court system in Florida all the way to the Supreme Court, that L.G. would be granted the right to the abortion. They are trying to do an end run around the law in order to force their will on this girl and all other girls (and women) in the state.

The ideologues that run the state government now have tried many times to curtail abortion rights in this state, especially for minors. However, they keep running up against the State Constitution which, unlike the Federal Constitution, does have the right to privacy in actual form, rather than implied form.

Be warned people: If they are successful here, they will try and try and try until they have dominion over your part of the country too.

[philosophie_en_rose]

127. The State of Florida is unfit!

Florida social services is a disgrace. It has literally lost children, some of whom have ended up dead. This young woman ran away from foster care, but did the state petition to have her returned? Of course not! The State didn't give a shit about this girl, until they could interfere with her uterus.


What kind of monster would force a 13 year old to give birth against her will? It's a nine month long rape.

[DELUSIONAL]

2. She has more wisdom that some of the damned adults!

This case is exactly why I get upset with some Dem males who want to just give into the religious right on the choice issue.

To force a 13 year old child to have a baby that she does not want is CRIMINAL -- and every damned adult who is denying her the right to make a choice about her body should be condemned to their own personal hell.

I have watched a rape victim's belly grow bigger and bigger until she had to leave school and go off somewhere to gave the thing that was growing inside of her. She was a classmate pre Roe v Wade.

Why do I detest Harry Reid -- because he has always voted on the side of the ANTI-CHOICE. He is NO friend of women.

[JerseygirlCT]

37. This is one of those situations I completely do not understand

Do they not understand that carrying and delivering a baby is MUCH more risky for this 13 yo child than having an abortion? If these people are supposed to be looking out for HER interests, then the abortion is right. (Particularly since it's what she wants).

It sounds like they've decided to look out for the FETUS' interests, not the child's. Screwed up. Entirely.

[Sean Reynolds]

76. But don't you know that she opened her legs. She needs to pay the price!

tic

[IndianaGreen]

88. It was a crime to have sex with her, even if she had consented to it

Is the State of Florida now arguing that victims of statutory rape and/or incest are now required to give birth to a child resulting from such rape?

Are we going to allow the American version of the Taliban to impose their morally twisted theology on the entire nation?

I think not!

[Miss Chybil]

100. She says she had sex with a "boy." If he was under 18, that's not crime.

[HockeyMom]

124. Florida age of consent law (crazy)

The age of consent in Florida (different states, different ages) for a boy is 16 and the age of consent for a girl is 18. I just looked this up. So, that means if a 16 year old boy has consensual sex with his 17 year old girl friend, that is statutory rape? Unbelievable.

In the majority of the states the age of consent is the same for both boys and girls.

[Evergreen Emerald]

158. That is not how it works.

Besides being under 15, there must be a difference in age. In WA if a child is under 12 there must be 24 months difference in age before it is a crime

If the child is 12 or 13 there must be 36 months difference in age

If the child is 14 or 15 there must be 48 months difference in age

Or it is not a crime

[imenja]

168. whether she has wisdom is aside from the point

She could be making a very bad decision. It doesn't matter. It's hers to make.

[insane_cratic_gal]

3. good for her

Seems like they are forcing their will upon the young woman and making her have the child only to take it away. Which would be equally devastating.

Where was the caring when she was running away? When she was having sex? where were these people then?

[LostinVA]

6. She's an American citizen -- she has rights

Why does this country act like minors are OWNED by their parents/guardians? I don't et it. They can be forcibly literally KIDNAPPED and sent to "boot camps" in foreign countries and have no recourse. Or even to ones in this country -- no judge or doctor suggested this, just send the mouthy/goth/gay teenager away. Or this.

Why do we allow our children to be treated like chattel? Why aren't they also given basic American citizen rights? I do NOT get it.

[demo dutch]

9. Here's the key .. FL State law allows minors to have abortions without

notifying their guardians, despite that fact that the DCF is the teen's legal guardian. According to the article....

"Experts say that law extends to wards of the state, raising the question of why this girl's decision has ended up before a judge"

That's why she telling the judge
"I think if I want to make the decision, it's my business and I can do that,"

My fear is that this thing will grow to "Schiavo Proportions" and that would be a really bad thing for this girl who is already 14 weeks pregnant. If that happens do you think they're going to try to run out the clock or something?

[LostinVA]

21. Ah-ha... interesting spin

I didn't realize that. Oh yeah, something will happen to screw this girl over -- AGAIN.

[salin]

35. Had a similar thought... but on the judge's safety side.

If this judge allows the abortion... how long before he is issued death threats?

[uppityperson]

64. Judges get death threats all the time

It goes with the territory and they deal with it in various ways, including extra security. Most everytime a judge rules on something, someone is pissed.

[Scairp]

42. Her guardian should take her to another city

Get the abortion, nothing they can do after that.

[tblue37]

58. If she is a ward of the state,

then the state is her guardian. And that particular "guardian" is precisely the entity that is forbidding the abortion.

[demo dutch]

117. No again ..FL State law allows minors to have abortions without notifying

their guardians, despite that fact that the DCF is the teen's legal guardian. According to the article....

"Experts say that law extends to wards of the state, raising the question of why this girl's decision has ended up before a judge"

[ngGale]

131. The state guardian didn't do their job...

or she would not be pregnant. The state should be punished for their poor system that fails at every turn, for all Fla. children. She sounds more rational than the judge. They are just trying make another political point at her expense. She sounds so bright, they may have chosen the wrong one. It's very sad for them to be using a child. A test case for the whole US. This is our future?:evilfrown:

[BattyDem]

109. "FL State law ...

allows minors to have abortions without notifying their guardians. Experts say that law extends to wards of the state, raising the question of why this girl's decision has ended up before a judge."


If the law says minors can have abortions without notifying their guardians, even if that guardian is the state, then why is this happening? It doesn't matter if you agree or disagree with allowing a 13 year old to make that kind of decision ... the point is, THE LAW SAYS SHE CAN!

This never should have gone to court. The girl is within her legal rights to have an abortion and if she's forced to have this child aganist her will (and in violation of the current law), I hope she sues the state of Florida for every f*cking penny it has! The state has no right to make an example of her and ruin her life because some people at the DCF don't like the law. No one gave a shit about this girl until she had "the almighty fetus" inside her!

If you don't agree with the law, you have every right to do what you can to change it, but in the meantime, abide by it! STOP PLAYING POLITICS WITH PEOPLE'S LIVES! :grr:

[iamjoy]

62. It Will Get More Tragic

The girl said if she had the baby she wouldn't let them take it away. "DCF would take the baby anyway," she said, but later added: "If I do have it, I'm not going to let them take it."

If they don't let her have an abortion, I see this girl running away. I see her trying to raise the child on the streets.

Are any of these anti-choice fundamentalists offering to adopt or take L.G. into foster care? The same family should also take the baby into foster care and care for both of them until L.G. is old enough. Probably not, because they only care about the fetus, not L.G.

[Carolab]

122. I personally know some fundies who are against abortion.

It's ENTIRELY selfish. They can't have children together (even though the husband has two kids from a prior marriage) and so they are hoping to adopt, but say "there is a shortage of white babies".

UGH.

[ooglymoogly]

4. imo florida is run by a totally demented religious tali ban

[Laughing Mirror]

5. Good for her

She sounds like a very smart young lady. It's good to hear people, young people especially, sticking up for their rights and not afraid to speak up, and loudly, to so-called justice, judges and courts.

[confludemocrat]

7. Still another Florida mess thanks to the Bush family

and their need to maintain their hegemony at every level their infestation or infection of the body politic resides.

Show me one thing any of them has touched and not turned into disastrous, sickening spectacle!

God, I hate these people.

[fighttotheend]

8. She sounds like a smart girl, but not too smart to get pregent at 13

[cap]

10. judge not, lest ye be judged...

we dont know the circumstances...
irresponsible behavior, maybe.

But maybe not...maybe she's was a product of "abstinence only" sex ed. You will be surprised at how many kids simply dont make the connection between fooling around and having a baby. Not knowing how your body works doesnt help. Maybe they were using contraception and the contraception failed.

Thirteen is too young for this behavior. But kids are physically maturing much earlier as well.

We just dont know.

[fighttotheend]

20. Kids act older nowadays cause of what I think, parents lack supervision,

common sense, Parents believe there kids can do no wrong They would shit knowing the stuff that goes on, kids in middle school carrying color bracelets letting other kids know what they do to them (sexually) its sick-- kids should just be kids, parents have to teach them they'll get older and have penty of time to explore all that later on.
Its not their maturing, its other things, And I blame not only parents but t.v. and so on,

Look at the 1950's ( in respect to parent child relationship) they had respect, parents cared even if the family didnt have alot, they got by, the neighborhood looked after each other kids, When a kid came home they got yelled at by Mom then dad, then grandma, etc. Nowadays it just crazy!

[Laughing Mirror]

24. Yes, let's look at the fabulous 1950's

when an unwed mother was a wretched outcast in our society, and if she built up the courage to try to get an abortion, from some backroom butcher usually, she could become a convicted felon, if arrested.

Oh yes, let us please swing back the clock to that brutal decade for women in America.

[fighttotheend]

29. I was only referring to child-parent relationship nothing else!!!!!

[w4rma]

38. She has no known "parent". She is a ward of the state of Florida. (nt)

[fighttotheend]

43. Well then theres your prob, the parents I think abused her or something

and thats why she is messed up, what I said relates back to parent-child relationship!!

[w4rma]

45. She doesn't sound "messed up" to me. Just un-protected, un-supervised,

and maybe un-loved.

[fighttotheend]

48. And that is sad, her situation is messed-up--they should

let her make decision and put her w/a family that can maybe help her!!

[w4rma]

50. I am in full agreement. (nt)

[salin]

51. She sounds messed-up to me.

Most kids this age aren't running away various times. They aren't vulnerable to getting pregnant at 13. Sadly, many kids who end up in 'the system' (DCF custody) arrive messed up by the adults in their lives and sometimes those placements just serve to further mess the child up.

However, she sounds very well spoken and intellectually mature - characteristics that might allow her to survive this period of her life. Yet the likely fall-out from the brewing sideshow being created at the hands of Florida's DCF.... somehow seem to make it more likely that she winds up more messed up than ever. I can see it now - the radicalized religious right holding her up again and again as the example of what is wrong with America... how long before her identity is exposed? I fear for this child - regardless of how this plays out.

[Sean Reynolds]

84. And that could force her into sex.

For all we know the abuse this article talked about could mean sexual abuse. If she was sexually abused by her father her mind could be telling her sex compensates for love. Maybe she had sex because she felt it'd restore someone's love in her. She's 13 years old and obviously of sound mind. However when a child is abused, little issues like love & sex are often blurred.

That, to me at least, means she shouldn't have this child. Because I highly doubt her goal was pregnancy. But of course with Republicans they only see the black & white issue here. She got knocked up, force her into having the child...blah, blah, blah. Life isn't just a cut and dry scenario. There are often other problems and situations that lead a person to do what they do.

While in the end every person is responsible for their actions, IF this baby is born we're not just talking about ONE human life. Now we're talking two (and more if she has twins, triplets, etc).

But I guess in their eyes it's ok to bring an unwanted baby into this world. Even if there is a chance it'll be abused, poverty stricken and unloved.

In the end it seems Republicans only seem to care about the baby when it's IN the woman. When it comes out, they ignore the health issues, poverty issues, educational issues and the abuse issues.

Societies problems today all stem from the fact too many people are having children when they shouldn't be. It's only the sane people that realize abortion or adoption is the correct way to go. If you force a baby into this world with NO hope of caring for it....how can that baby succeed? It can't.

So why do it?

Why let them do it?

[Zhade]

71. Like you have ANY fucking clue what her life has been like.

I'd wager none of us do, yet here you are, spouting conspiracy theories about the parents of a girl you don't even know.

[fighttotheend]

80. It was in the news report, No I dont know anything either do you

All I know is the situation she is in is messed up!!

[philosophie_en_rose]

126. Obviously, we know what her life has been like.

She is a foster child that is 13 and pregnant. We don't need the details to know that this she has had an unfortunate upbringing.

The parents may not be abusive. They could be dead for all we know. However, it does not get around the fact that somehow those parents are either not available to be involved or are completely unfit to be her guardians.

On Edit: She was taken from her parents, because they abused and neglected her. So it is reasonable to assume that she has suffered trauma in her life. Although none of it has anything to do with the fact that she has a legal right to choose.

[renaissanceguy]

174. Right...the same era that fathers would beat the hell

out of their kids, and mothers would sit there and do nothing about it. The fathers would have mistresses, but the mother had to stay at home and shut up.

Right...that was an EXCELLENT time.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

178. Yes, the marvelous 1950s

When women had no alternatives but to stay in bad marriages where they and/or their kids were brutalized by husbands/fathers who had absolute power - i.e., they ruled the checkbook.

When sex was whispered about and coat-hanger abortions on someone's kitchen table was the best a woman or girl "in trouble" could hope for.

If you honestly believe that parent-child relationships were that great in the 1950s, you clearly weren't a kid then. It was the most repressive, misleading, dishonest time, and kids were nothing but property - much like this little girl is being treated in Florida right now.

But, she's obviously learned to speak up for herself, and it sounds to me that if she can get herself through and out of that wretched system, she's going to be a remarkable human being.

[JimmyJazz]

12. One doesn't have to be STUPID in order to get pregnant at 13.

This girl has been in foster care most of her life. If she wasn't the victim of rape, perhaps she was guilty of accepting affection from someone in any form she could get it????

There was another person involved in this - maybe he's the stupid one?

[demo dutch]

13. Thank you, the boys generally aren't blamed ..are they!

[Pacifist Patriot]

33. At 13 there is no way around it. She is the victim of rape.

Even if it is "only" statutory. A crime has been committed and it isn't seeking a first trimester abortion.

[BadNews]

57. The Father Could be Another Teenager

Don't jump to conclusions.

[Pacifist Patriot]

63. Actually, I wasn't jumping to conclusions I was just stupid.

I didn't realize the father had to be at or over a certain age. I thought if he was 15, for example, it was still considered statutory. My mistake.

[JerseygirlCT]

119. Could be, but I don't believe that matters under the law. nt

[JerseygirlCT]

118. Great point. Legally speaking, she's been raped, regardless nt

[fighttotheend]

56. Agreed you dont have to be stupid but maybe..

irresponsible, ppl are saying smart girl hooray for her she is 13 and pregnant, I say poor young foolish girl now faced with this messed up-decision, I feel bad that this is the way it is, and there are a lot more girls like her but didn't get the chance to have their story public, Who wants 13 yrs old girls getting pregnant not me, they can do some much and be so much if only they would wait until they were older

[uppityperson]

65. Pshaw. We're not saying "smart girl horray"etc

I think most of us feel sorry for her, for choices she made or decisions forced on her by others. Look at this that she is trying to take some responsibility for her condition and the powers that be won't let her. I agree that there is so much more people can do when they are older than 13, but sometimes conditions are forced on a person out of their control and it sounds like this has been her life so far.

[Zhade]

73. Man, you're just full of shit on this one today, aren't you?

The only cheering anyone is doing is for this girl being aware of and demanding her inherent right to control her own body.

No one - NO ONE - on this thread is cheering her for being pregnant. Please try to follow: no one is cheering for her being pregnant at 13. Got it?

Tell Ms. Malkin to increase your training budget, because she's not getting her money's worth.

[catzies]

159. WHO THE HELL IS SAYING 'HOORAY FOR HER SHE'S 13 & PREGNANT?'

Who?????????

[CottonBear]

16. A condom could have broken or a sponge may not have been

properly inserted. The boy could have told her that "withdrawal" works as birth control.

I have several friends who became preganant when diaphragms or condoms failed. They had abortions because they already had children, were getting divorced or were not married and did not want a child.

edit: It is awful to ask her to have the baby so it can be adopted. (What do you want to bet that the girl is white? The fundies want white babies not black or hispanic babies.) Adoption is worse than abortion for the woman.

[fighttotheend]

22. Being an unwanted child she should of known, what could happen,

I'm not knocking getting pregnant, shit I was a young mother, she seems smart, and with that should of known what could happen and why would she want to go through that, And being a young mother I know and I preach all the time it isn't glorious it's damn hard work by yourself ( I had to put school on hold and my life I wouldnt have it any other way now)
But these young girls (we need to teach the girls a little bit more, because its them who suffer the most) think there untouchable and parade around like it's ok to get pregnant

[alarimer]

27. She was probably raped

She is below the age of consent; that makes it statutory rape at the very least. She is NOT AT FAULT here. No matter the circumstance. This is about the stupidest post I have ever seen

[fighttotheend]

31. So you see nothing wrong here she is 13 and pregent

still she could of said No, or avoiding the situation, just the fact she doesnt want to mention the guys name is evidence she still is involved some way, Let your kid come home 13 and pregent--

[Zhade]

78. I can't believe you just said that.

"...still she could of said No, or avoiding the situation..."

Yes, because we all know that a tiny 13-year-old girl can stop being raped by just saying no.

WTF? I mean, I'm not saying she was raped, but your comment is ridiculous. Sometimes a young girl can't do anything, and yet you're eager to blame her for everything.


"...just the fact she doesnt want to mention the guys name is evidence she still is involved some way,"

What a stupid, pointless remark. Yes, she's involved because she's pregnant. Kudos for figuring that one out on your own. Now, let's examine the possibility that she is pregnant by, say, rape or abuse by someone working for the state. Would her silence then make sense to you?

Would you even care, or would you still find a way to blame her?

[fighttotheend]

87. I meant it this way....

Listen there is more to the story who knows the real situation I am thinking it was another 13 yr boy, with that she could of told him no lets wait, my fault for not clarifying that enough, avoiding the situation by maybe concentrated more on other things like trying to get the system to put her with a better family, school I dont know, something,
No way do I want to see other 13 yr old girls go through this,

I am glad she is speaking out, but what about the young girls who hear her story what will they think,

Its sad to see this will effect her, her whole life.
If she was raped no way her fault but I am not thinking that she was, if she was they should push more so for the abortion and even criminal charges,

[Zhade]

91. "what about the young girls who hear her story what will they think"

Hopefully they'll think that if they ever get in an unfortunate situation like hers they'll know they have rights and should demand them.

You still seem to be drawing conclusions you can't possibly draw at this time.

[fighttotheend]

96. So are you...What evidence do you have?

She is in this situation for whatever reason, and now she is in it whether she likes it or not, I am one person with an opinion which is --Let her have her right, I just question her behavior before this happened thats all, I will not be a person who would take that right a way from her!!! We all judge each other you judged me on my stand on this, we are not free from judgment, we all do it but I will not take her right away b/c she made some bad choices!!!!
What is your problem with that?

[Zhade]

113. My problem is that her past behavior IS NONE OF OUR BUSINESS.

My problem is you continuing to intimate that she must have done something wrong.

You don't want to take her rights away, I have no issue with you. Confronting your judgemental attitude is not important. That you do not want to take her rights away is important.

[fighttotheend]

66. Also what if the boy was 13, too,

you are assuming rape, my post is not stupid , its ppl who are blind as to what children do!!! We need to teach girls more about themselves and sex and things like that. My post stated its hard to be a young mother what's stupid about that, its true. There are many things missing from the story what if she sold her body for some money, we dont know all we know is its sad when a young girl finds herself in this situation and things must be done.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

34. SHE'S FUCKING 13! She is in the FOSTER system

[fighttotheend]

40. No SHIT, there is still a problem here, ..

, I'm not saying it all her fault, but 13 is too young and SOME girls think its ok to be that young and a MOM, that's my problem.
my post was in reference to young girls LIKE THAT!!!!!!!
She seems like a smart girl they are saying,she knew enough to try to get an abortion, And she should be granted that right no doubt in my mind,

And my post stated how hard it is to be young and a mom you disagree with THAT?

[Shallah Kali]

61. She didn't even know she was pregnant she is so clueless

She obviously didn't get decent, if any, sex ed. She was taken from her family due to abuse and/or neglect which could mean sexual abuse. This would make her a prime target for further sexual abuse. If you are aready damaged why care what you do and who with? Why not do this thing that will make someone who say they care about you happy? Or if you love me you will have sex with me or I will find someone else. Abused kids have a lot less resistance to users because they don't feel they deserve anything better or even know they COULD get something better.

As for the other girls you talk of want to bet many of them want someone to love them so badly they think having a baby is the solution? Or they think this will make their boyfriend love them - again from desperation to be loved?

[Zhade]

75. Ok, please explain to me your logic here...

"But these young girls (we need to teach the girls a little bit more, because its them who suffer the most) think there untouchable and parade around like it's ok to get pregnant"

1) What evidence do you have that this girl fits your stereotype?

2) What evidence do you have that your stereotype is based on any form of reality?

3) If this girl 'thinks she's untouchable' and wants to 'parade around like it's ok to get pregnant' - then WHY DOES SHE WANT AN ABORTION?

You're making judgements about people you don't know based on a complete lack of any evidence. You sound like you have your mind made up - "bad girl, you had sex, now you'll suffer! - and you don't really care about this girl, just about making some idiotic, unsupported blanket condemnation of teen mothers.

Well, guess what? Sometimes girls this young get raped. It happens. Sometimes they have sex without full knowledge of what could happen. Anything could account for this pregnancy, but you seem to have no problem condemning this girl.

Why?

[fighttotheend]

79. Not at all, I was just making a statement in general,

There are other circumstances yes agreed, I am not saying she doesnt have a right, she does, it just why does it even have to go this far?

[Zhade]

85. You didn't answer my questions.

They're reasonable questions, and I think you could answer them if you tried. I'm quite curious to hear your answers.

[fighttotheend]

90. All l have to do is look in my neighborhood. r/o

This girl may or may not--who knows
My sister is 14, (I get really mad) when her friends they say oh, I wish I could have a baby now, Her one friend has a boyfriend and the mothers lets them sleep together, that's crazy! I just dont want to be blinded to the fact that young kids these days are all innocent, they do things they know are wrong but do them anyway, we all did, but in todays world these things they are doing carry with them for life, if wish I knew why these young girls need to have sex so young, I wish we could fix it so that they know how important they are, and that some boy wont make their prob. go away

In fact it is reality that more and more young girls are becoming pregnant, what happens to these children who are having children, its scary to think

Of course I care, she seems so smart and educated that's what's making me mad, she should of known, now she has to deal with the courts and a big mess, I just hope she keeps fighting

[Zhade]

94. You're STILL blaming her! Why? What gives you the right to pass judgement?

And what's this nonsense about "today's world"? You DO realize that kids her age have been getting pregnant since humans could get pregnant, right? It's not like this is a new problem, or sadly even a rare one.

You want to make sure things like this happen less? Here's how: fight bullshit like 'abstinence-only' sexual education and for real sex education. Fight to protect the right to birth control, even for kids her age, because somewhere in the world there will be kids this old having sex. Make sure they are educated, and it'll lessen the number of cases like this.

Then you will have less girls in tragic circumstances to arrogantly pass judgement on.

[Southern Dem 2005]

95. Good arguments regarding birth control

[fighttotheend]

98. UMM thats what I said, so I am not sure what your arguement w/ me is....

[fighttotheend]

99. We all pass Judgement, you passed Judgement on my post...

We all do it, right or wrong!

[Zhade]

114. My passing judgement on your posts...

...is hardly the same as you passing judgement on a young girl for "being stupid" and "parading around" while pregnant.

I will freely admit that I judged your posts. However, I actually had something to base that judgement on, unlike your continual insistence that the girl must have done something wrong, which is based on no evidence whatsoever.

I said it elsewhere, and I'll repeat it now: as long as you do not advocate her rights being taken away, then I have no issue with you. I think your posts are short-sided and accusatory with regards to the girl, but we're all entitled to our opinion, regardless of what others think of that opinion.

So consider this a ceasefire. Hopefully, we both learned something useful from our exchange.

[bettyellen]

116. yeah, you are knocking her, repeatedly......

you keep saying that it's we're cheering her for being pregnant, or she's thinking it's okay to be pregnant, when this is not the case. are you ignoring everything here and working from a script or something?

[theHandpuppet]

28. Not to mention...

... that in Florida at least, as a girl in a homeless shelter at the mercy of the state, she would not have been provided access to birth control or proper sex ed.

[Laughing Mirror]

23. I'll bet she knows how to pronounce and spell pregnant, though

How old are you?

[fighttotheend]

55. nt

[salin]

44. She is in Florida ... wonder if they even teach sex ed beyond

"abstinance only" in the public schools? Given she is a ward of the state, which currently is in the throes of fundamentalism via govt, who do you think takes responsibility for even teaching the girl how NOT to get pregnant beyond abstinance, and who is protecting her from situaions where she is vulnerable to the prodding of young (?) men. Girls at this age, particularly if they have been neglected by family (the girl was taken away from her family for neglect/abuse, I believe), are very vulnerable - seeking attention and "love" and confusing the attention of boys who want sex with "love". So she goes on the run for a month... as the judge said - there seems to be more "emergency action" now per the abortion, than there was when this CHILD of 13 went missing.

What a mess.

Sorry but your point, seems to assume a more adult sense (to "know better") than many 13 year olds have - especially those who are not being raised by strong supportive families who instill that kind of maturity and knowledge. Throw in the abstinance only govt crowd to whom her care is entrusted... and the conditions that make her vulnerable to 'comeons' - and the old "she should have known better, so too bad for her" stance seems a bit harsh.

[fighttotheend]

46. True, its still ashame, 13 is too young what if they make her have it?

[salin]

49. It is a shame all ways around.

Sadly, this poor young already-messed-up girl, is likely to become even more messed up. That is probably true any way this resolves itself - especially now that it is about to become a sideshow. Undoubtedly her identity is going to be disclosed (it always does) - she will be vilified by our emboldened religious right - held up as the example of all that is wrong in our country (as they seem never to show compassion.... esp those on the tv/radio talking head circuit).

Unless some very caring adult steps into this girl's life - and soon, I fear she will have a more and more messed up life - at leasty for a number of years. But if she were to follow the footsteps of some other young girls I have known along the way who eventually turn to drugs for solace/self-medication... she certainly won't get the 'get out of jail free' card handed to the governor's daughter.

[progressivebydesign]

54. Here is a Blue state, at 13 there is NO birth control ed.

If the kid isn't learning it at home, it's not happening. And.. they are teaching abstinence when you're approximately 13 to 14. But we've all seen the studies about that.. it actually increases pregnancy and STD rates if abstinence only education is used, rather than a more comprehensive approach.

[Zhade]

70. What if she got "pregent" [sic] from being raped?

What an idiotic, thoughtless statement on your part.

[CottonBear]

11. This girl is smart. She should become a lawyer:

L.G., who told Alvarez she had run away at least five times from her youth shelter, maintained, "It would make no sense to have the baby."

"I don't think I should have the baby because I'm 13, I'm in a shelter and I can't get a job," the girl said as Alvarez and her guardian ad litem, assigned to shepherd her in the legal system, questioned her.

L.G. laid out different reasons for wanting an abortion.

"DCF would take the baby anyway," she said, but later added: "If I do have it, I'm not going to let them take it."

<snip>

"Since you guys are supposedly here for the best interest of me, then wouldn't you all look at that fact that it'd be more dangerous for me to have the baby than to have an abortion?" she asked. Alvarez called that "a good point."

<snip>

She had sex with "a boy" but refused to disclose his name to Alvarez saying: "That's not really necessary."

It is her life and her body. Florida's Taliban should have no power over her body and her life.

[AgadorSparticus]

69. I hear ya!! I can't believe some talk that she is "stupid".

careless, reckless, maybe. But hell, SHIT HAPPENS in sex (and in life, in general).

She IS 13. It's pretty impressive that she has this level of awareness of the ignorance and harmful intentions of an authoritarian source. And then to follow up with not letting them take her baby. wow. I just remember what I was like at 13 and I was nowhere near her level of mental development.

[Zhade]

82. Damn, she's better on this issue than some longterm DUers!

She's quite bright, I hope this all works out in the end for her.

[Auntie Bush]

14. I think it's a lot harder on a woman emotionally to give up a her baby

than to have an abortion. They spend the rest of there life wondering where the child is and what is happening in it's life and missing that child. After an abortion...you can forget all about the child and get on with your own life. Also women who are depressed are more prone to post partom psychosis than woman who have an abortion. If the State is really thinking about what's best for the girl, rather than their own religious philosophy, they would let her have the abortion immediately.

[demo dutch]

19. They're not even considering what's best for the "baby"

She 13 yrs, has not support system, can provide for the child, that child is unwanted and will end up the endless cycle of foster care. That's what make me so furious!
The repugs want to bring unwanted children into the world but won't support them financially. They have this fantasy that every child will be adopted. Sadly enough (but true) if this is an mixed-raced child, chances are it will never be adopted, also because inter-racial adoptions are still frowned-upon in this country. Yet they refuse to take care of single mothers etc.
No-one cared about the mother but now she's pregnant, so boy let's make the that baby get born!
The truth is that it's best this "baby" is never born.

[progressivebydesign]

52. You're absolutely right. But no one realizes it until they live it. n/t

[BadNews]

60. No, no, no....

This kid has the right to make the decision to have an abortion. That should not be denied or prohibited. However, from the outside, we do not have right to even pass judgment on if an abortion is the correct decision.

I mean, even the most downtrodden people in this world are grateful that their own mothers chose not to have an abortion. How many of you come from broken families, or single parent families? My older sister had two children that she supported and loved alone. She could have had an abortion on either occasion, but we are all grateful she CHOSE not to do so. Now her youngest daughter is a 2 time single mom. Again she CHOSE to keep both babies and the entire family helps raise them. They are beautiful children who are well loved.

My point is that the choice the have the child in difficult circumstances is just as valid as the choice to abort. MANY here would have told both my sister and niece to just have an abortion when they became pregnant as teens. Granted, it was a turning point in each of their lives, and many doors are now closed to them, but neither regret the decisions they made to raise a baby and start what was an unplanned family.

[BlueCaliDem]

74. She's 13. She's been abused. She wants an abortion. Let her...

...have one.

SHE made the decision to have sex. She's making the decision to have an abortion.

The girl knows what she wants. If anything, we should applaud her for her independence, and strength of character that she stands up against those who think they can control her life; her future.

It's HER choice. HER right. The consequences will be hers, and hers alone.

I am against abortion, but I am FOR pro-choice. I was a teen mother too; had three children with my husband who was only 16 at the time of our first pregnancy.

Now, 24 years later, we're still married, and have three children, but these were choices WE made, and we suffered the consequences too.

That's why I am pro-choice. MY decision to have sexual intercourse; MY decision to have the baby, and I took on the responsibilities that came with it.

The key here is: Let the woman decide, and she will decide based on her own personal circumstances; mental capabilities; beliefs; finances; heart, and soul.

It's that simple.

[BadNews]

110. BINGO!

[KC21304]

77. She is told she is not old enough to make the choice to have

an abortion but she is old enough to be a mother. :silly:

[Zhade]

86. I think that's a false description of DUers.

Most here would tell your sister and niece that it's their choice. At that point, what they suggest is just that: a suggestion. They would never force them to either carry to term or to abort. It's all about choosing your destiny. They choose to have their children, it worked out for them, and that's something no one here could find fault with.

It's the anti-choicers who want to control your sister and niece, not pro-choice DUers.

[JerseygirlCT]

83. Even just physically speaking,

pregnancy and delivery are far more difficult, and far more dangerous, especially to a child. By forcing her to carry her pregnancy, they are putting this child in danger. That's really unconscionable, when the child in question wants an abortion.

[dkofos]

15. "I don't know"?????

If you don't know judge, maybe you shouldn't be a judge!!!

I would expect that answer form a thirteen year old.
Not an alleged Judge.

[supernova]

17. Hooray for this young woman,

I hope she gets to have her abortion.

This entire situation is screwy almost beyond belief.

If she can get out of this, she might possbily have a bright future. She'd defiitely smart. You go, L.G! :applause:

[Occulus]

18. It's entirely possible she's emotionally more mature than we're giving

credit to her for being. I don't know of any 13-year-old that could speak to a judge with such moral clarity.

Her reasoning to get the abortion is very adult. After reading what she said, I've no doubt she never intended the pregnancy in the first place. That said, she's also showing an enormous amount of courage to state she'll be keeping the baby if she's forced to have it, thankyouverymuch.

I'm not saying her pregnancy is no big deal- 13 years old is too young to bear a child. Well, apparently not, because her body's going to do just that, but still, it's too young to be a mother. However, she knows that; it's why she wanted an abortion in the first place.

I'm also going to go out on a limb and say she's fully aware of the implicaktions of this case. Coaching? I don't know, maybe, but it doesn't sound as though she's much scared of the State of Florida in any case.

Best of luck to her, no matter the final outcome.

[yo-yo-ma]

25. even the judge finds fault in the DCF agenda

sounds like the DCF didn't care about her when she ran away from the shelter and was living on the street - not until she had a fetus inside

from the article:

"The judge blasted the DCF, saying the agency never asked the court to issue an order to take the child into custody after her most recent disappearance.

"To say that I am angry at that would be an understatement," Alvarez said. "To rush into this court on an emergency basis because this child is pregnant and wants an abortion, I don't know where our priorities in life are. The priority should have been to make certain that an order to take her into custody was issued as soon as possible, and that she was found and taken off of the streets or wherever she was. But nobody cared."

[msanthrope]

26. Dear Circuit Judge Ronald Alvarez:

Dear Circuit Judge Ronald Alvarez:

Look, we all know that this case will have political reprecussions for you. We all know what happened to Judge Greer, and the circus that happened outside that hospice.

But do your job, anyway. Do your job.

It won't be easy. But it will be right.

[dogday]

30. Poor thing is just a pawn in this political arena......

[Triana]

32. That 13-year old girl has more common sense...

...than the judge does! She ought to be able to make her own decision.

[frustrated_lefty]

36. Jesus Christ, people!

Look, there's a 13 yr old kid trying to have what will likely be one of the most painful memories in her life! She's a CHILD, trying to make an adult decision. Whatever happens, leave her alone, don't carry your thoughts of her with you. If you feel that strongly about the issue, pay THAT much more attention to your own kids. Value them THAT much more. Stop shooting your trap off about what other people are doing and care about your own kids.

Sorry if that's blunt, but a child is a gift, not a philosophical thing to argue fine details over.

[rocktivity]

47. We're simply trying to support her RIGHT to make that decison

Regardless of her age.

Yes, it's an unfortunate situation. But ironically, she's the only one who sees it for what it is, and is making the best of it--to which I say bravo!!!

:applause:
rocknation

[Name removed]

93. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

101. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rocktivity]

102. And forcing a 13-year old to have a baby ISN'T extremist?

Just because she's young doesn't that ANY decision she makes MUST be wrong. WHY should she have to baby? HOW is it in her best interests? As a parent, would you MAKE your daughter give birth?

:headbang:
rocknation

[sonicx]

104. You want the governement to control our bodies and you call others

extremists? :eyes:

[KitSileya]

105. "13 year old can make a decision like this on her own"

"This girl is a 13 year and she DOES NOT have a right to have an abortion. This is not a decision she should be allowed to make on her own. She is a child for gods sakes."

As was pointed out earlier in the thread - she's apparently not mature enough to make the decision to have and abortion, but she's plenty mature enough to be a mother, is that it? She's not mature enough to go through a medical procedure, but she's plenty mature enough to experience having her baby taken away and placed in a system she knows from experience is shitty and prone to abuse, is that it? She's not mature enough to live with the consequences of a choice she's made herself, but she's plenty mature enough to live with the consequences of a choice that's been forced upon her against her will, is that it?

Oh, and the reason why "the Right has done such a good job at branding the Dems as the party of no values" is because the Dems have been rolling over and playing dead in cases like this in order to not anger the so-called moral majority Right, which isn't, when you get down to it, all that moral, nor is it the majority, and it certainly isn't right.

[uppityperson]

106. She has a right to have a baby but not an abortion?

How abut drugging her for the next 7 months so she has no memory of being pg or giving birth and thus stays mentally healthy? After all, you wouldn't want her to bond with the baby before it's taken away and adopted out (because she'd be only 14 and unable to care for it), would you. :sarcasm:

[msanthrope]

108. Yes. She does have the right--the Constitution of the United

States applies to minors, too. And yes, this 13 year old can make the decision about what she wants to have happen to her own body.

If she wanted to keep this child, I would fight just as hard against a government who said she wasn't old enought to make this determination--and, in fact, under your formulation, she also lacks the capacity to consent to pregnancy and birth.

So which is it?

[Name removed]

111. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[oldcoot]

112. Who are the extremists?

According to the article, Florida law does not require a minor to obtain permission from a parent or guardian. Allowing this girl to make her own decision is simply following the law. Is that an extreme position?

I think that most of the posts that you find disgusting recognize the sad fact that this girl is really alone and has no one to support or guide her. The article states that the girl's parents either abused or neglected her. I really think that it is unlikely that they will come forward to support her and to help her make this decision.

Considering the state of Florida's track record with losing children, I also do not think that the state has any business interfering in her decision. Indeed, I wonder if the state would have taken such an interest in her if it was not for the fact that she wants to terminate her pregnancy. Since the only one who really cares about this girl is the girl herself, she should be the one to make the decision.

The true extremists are the ones who get weepy and hysterical about the "poor unborn babies" who are "being murdered" and then stop giving a shit about these babies after they are born. Rational people should condemn such attitudes. They should also demand more government accountably in their state's social services programs so that we have fewer children in this situation.

[progressivebydesign]

53. Having a baby at 13 is a much more painful experience...

She should be allowed a court appointed advocate, if she does not have one already. I cannot believe they will not allow her to do this. Forcing a 13 year old to have a baby is beyond cruel and draconian. It will change her body and her mind forever.

[enki23]

67. are you fucking kidding?

.

[IndianaGreen]

89. She was RAPED!

By law, a child of 13 is incapable of giving consent to having sex, even if she does. This is statutory rape!

[w4rma]

39. These anti-choice/anti-freedom fundies are really ticking me off. (nt)

[alarimer]

59. The ones that make me angry are the ones blaming HER

for her situation. Saying she should have known better, etc. When in all likelihood she is the victim of statutory rape at the very least. Even if her partner was a teenager a fe wyears older than her (this is what I am assuming; I have no idea really what the situation was- the boy could also be 13 for all I know).

[Catt03]

92. Sure...blame the victim...

that is exactly what Bush wants you to do..

Lord....last year he appointed a guardian for the fetus of a mentally retarded woman who was raped rather than consent to an abortion.

Women are property of the state, in the state of Florida.

[slackmaster]

41. Of course she should be able to choose

It was not the intent of the founders of this country to give states the power run peoples' personal lives. The state does not have any legitimate authority to compel someone to carry an unintended pregnancy to term.

That's so goddamn obvious, I really cannot understand why the judge doesn't get it.

[Princess Turandot]

115. The article said he was waiting because it is already before

the Court of Appeals, on an emergency basis. The way he chastized DCF for being worried abt her getting an abortion but NOT being too worried abt them losing her several times, makes me think he is likely to rule against DCF if their suit is not thrown out by the court of appeals.

[Shallah Kali]

68. Article | Head of DCF opted to challenge girl's abortion plans

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/localnews/content/news/epaper/2005/04/30/m1a_dcf_0430.html

The head of the Florida Department of Children and Families personally decided that her agency should go to court to stop a 13-year-old foster child from having an abortion.

DCF Secretary Lucy Hadi reviewed the case and felt she could not allow the girl to end the pregnancy before notifying a juvenile court judge, Marilyn Munoz, spokeswoman for the agency in Palm Beach County, said Friday

SNIP

But attorneys who work with foster children say DCF has rarely used that law to block an abortion sought by a child in foster care. Hadi's decision goes against state Supreme Court rulings that girls do not need parents' permission to get an abortion, some said.

SNIP

Her biological parents lost their rights for abusing and neglecting her, so the state serves as her legal custodian. But the state can't intervene because of L.G.'s right to privacy and individual choice, the organizations argue.

This poor kid has been in state 'care' since 1998.

[Shallah Kali]

72. If I was severely disabled I would rather face Dr. Death than Jeb Bush

The above article mentioned another case in florida I had heard of a few years ago. I found an article on it:

Appeals court rules fetuses can't have guardians
http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:pso8a2DQYVAJ:www.naplesnews.com/npdn/florida/article/0,2071,NPDN_14910_2567425,00.html+&hl=en&lr=&strip=1

The 5th District Court of Appeal in Daytona Beach ruled late Friday that Orange County Judge Lawrence R. Kirkwood properly denied a woman's petition to be named guardian for the fetus, which has since been born.

SNIP

Bush wanted a guardian to be appointed for the fetus because the mother — suffering from severe retardation, cerebral palsy and autism — was unable to provide for its well-being. Kirkwood refused numerous times, but with the state's support Jennifer Wixtrom appealed the decision denying her guardianship of the fetus.

The disabled woman, identified in court papers only as J.D.S., was raped in late 2002 while living in a DCF-licensed group home in Orlando. She gave birth to a healthy daughter in August.

Days later, the 75-year-old husband of the care home owner was arrested, only to be found incompetent to stand trial. The home's owner is awaiting trial on a felony charge of negligence.

I can't belive this. I really can't believe they made that poor woman, who was as able to defend herself as an infant, give birth. That is unspeakably vile. What the hell is wrong with those people? Do they have some sort of forced pregnancy fetish?????

[rebecca_herman]

107. I remember that case

She was rather far along when the pregnancy was discovered, but it wasn't viable yet. They managed to delay it so the hearing took place after the fetus was already viable and since the high-risk doctors they took the woman to all said that at that point a birth was no more risky than a late-term abortion, and the fetus had no detectable birth defects, they could not tell the court an abortion was neccesary for her health because there was no medical reason. She did end up with a good guardian who tried her best for her and said she would be completely willing to authorize an abortion with a medical recomendation. The woman had no clue what was going on either way so at least she didn't suffer. I was so freaking mad at them for their stupid delays though, they knew what they were doing.

[Emillereid]

97. This is a no brainer -- no child of 13 should be allowed to have a baby!

I don't know how she got pregnant, but I do know that to make her have this baby is to compound an already tragic situation wherein two lives will be messed up. If this isn't a compelling case to allow pregnancy termination I don't know what would be. To make this child have a baby against her will is criminal.

[rodeodance]

103. risk her dying from carring the preg. to term vs an abortion is greater.

She also questioned the health risk of carrying the fetus to term.

"Since you guys are supposedly here for the best interest of me, then wouldn't you all look at that fact that it'd be more dangerous for me to have the baby than to have an abortion?" she asked. Alvarez called that "a good point."

Dr. Ethelene Jones, an expert in obstetrics and gynecology, testified earlier in the hearing that abortions are "definitely" safer than full term pregnancies for girls L.G.'s age.

"At her age and at her stage of gestation ... her risk of death from an abortion procedure is about 1 in 34,000," said Jones, who has held positions at Planned Parenthood and the ACLU. "The risk of death in pregnancy is about 1 in 10,000."...

[NVMojo]

120. privacy about where she lived before but not personal privacy

about a personal decision? This country is a hypocritical bastion of shit.

[The Animator]

123. "mild mood disorder"

Lynn Hargrove, the court-appointed psychologist, testified L.G. had a "mild mood disorder" but did not have "a significant psychotic or delusional thought process" that would interfere with rational decision making

A mild mood disorder? Isn't that what being 13 is all about?

[Robworld]

128. Could this be considered child abuse?

Do anti choice people ever see the bigger picture. There more concerned that she has the baby, even though it might kill her. If she does have the baby, what will happen after its born. This girl obviously does not have the means to take proper care of her child to be. The child's child will become part of the system. These people vote against social programs but force children to have babies they cant afford to feed. It is totally irrational, and abusive to this girl just so they can push there ideology.

http://www.dumdumgoestothecircus.com/

[Shallah Kali]

166. It should be. She was raped and they want to force her to bear the child

She is to young to legally consent so even if she was willing it was rape. Add to that her age which makes it so dangerous to her to bear a child. They are totally ignoring what is her best interest for the sake of sucking up to the RR.

[MontageOfFreedom]

129. The state has a sleaze of a governor...

So its currently as corrupt as the climate it has set, and its getting worse.

[MontageOfFreedom]

130. No comment.n/t

[Moderator]

132. Kick

[strategery blunder]

133. Florida girl has abortion blocked

By Jeremy Cooke
BBC News, New York

"A pregnant 13-year-old girl in Florida has been told she cannot have an abortion because she lacks the maturity to make such a decision.

A state court granted an injunction which prevents the girl from terminating her pregnancy.

She is three months pregnant and had planned to have an abortion on Tuesday of this week.

The American Civil Liberties Union says it will launch an urgent appeal against the ruling."

More...

The judge who ordered this had better adopt the baby himself. But who am I kidding...it's Florida!:eyes::puke:

[AndyTiedye]

134. Another "Win" for the Forced Parenthood Movement

:grr:

[imenja]

146. it's not a win for god's sake

the case is still being adjudicated. The injunction is temporary.

[Shallah Kali]

164. It shouldn't even be before the court. Girls have the right to choose

according to state law which is why several articles ask why this is even being brought before a judge. It is a win for those who oppose women's right to be in control of their own bodies to even bring this to court.

[imenja]

165. I see your point

but most of the comments are based on the fact people don't know the circumstances of the case and are reading some crappy BBC article that misreports a US domestic issue.

[imenja]

170. Jeb again plays politics with a woman's life

It's yet another opportunity for Jeb to play politics with a woman's life.

This is the legal grounds they are using


"Many legal experts believe that the case of the foster child identified as L.G. may be the first of its kind in Florida. At issue is whether the state agency or the court has the right to consider whether the abortion is in her best interest — or whether the girl's constitutional right to choose bans both from getting involved.

A Florida law on the books for years says the state agency cannot consent to an abortion in any case.

But attorneys who work with foster children say DCF has rarely used that law to block an abortion sought by a child in foster care. Hadi's decision goes against state Supreme Court rulings that girls do not need parents' permission to get an abortion, some said.
Attorney Carolyn Salisbury, who represents children in foster care through the University of Miami's Children and Youth Law Clinic, said girls have been having abortions for decades without interference.

Normally, state caseworkers aren't involved, Salisbury said. A foster parent, attorney or friend drives the girl to the appointment. A private organization in Miami-Dade County donates money for the abortions so the state doesn't have to pay. In some cases, she said, the state never even knows."

Palm Beach Post Kathleen Chapman April 30



http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=1435415&mesg_id=1437107&page=

[AndyTiedye]

177. They Can Keep It Tied Up In Court Until It Is Too Late

They win by default if they can drag it into the next trimester.

[Wapsie B]

135. This is insane.

[daleo]

136. She lacks the maturity to have an abortion

But apparently has the maturity to have a baby?

[Hugin]

137. I said it once and I'll say it again...

Who's the Daddy?

It is illegal for a 13 yo to be pregnant in the first place.

So, who dropped the ball?

There was a crime committed here and it's being ignored.

[strategery blunder]

138. And meanwhile, the child is probably condemned to 18 years...

sentence in the Florida foster care system.

The child gets the sentence that the rapist should have received.:grr:

[Evergreen Emerald]

140. I can't take it anymore

I hope the ACLU prevails.

Note: it may not be a crime if the male is also her age (or within 3 years of her age).

[Hugin]

147. I thought consensual contact was illegal for a minor.

Besides, until we know who was with this "ward of the state" we
can't be sure of anything. The fact the info hasn't been released
under Florida's so-called Sunshine Laws. There is no indication to
the contrary.

There are several problems here...

How did a minor become pregnant while under state supervision?
How did the state miss the pregnancy until the second trimester?
Who was the father? (It takes two.)
Why, if she was having sex, was she not provided with birth control?
and many more...

This whole thing stinks of a cover-up.

For crying out loud, Florida should be running a decent program...
Not a privatized puppy farm.

[unblock]

151. really? what if the "father" is also 13 years old?

[Hugin]

154. Then they've got some real problems with their child services.

How does his age relieve him of his responsibility?

It takes two.

It's called Statutory Rape.

But, it's highly unlikely...

"Although relatively small proportions of 13-14-year-olds have had intercourse,* those who become sexually active at an early age are especially likely to have experienced coercive sex: Seventy-four percent of women who had intercourse before age 14 and 60% of those who had sex before age 15 report having had a forced sexual experience"

More here for your reading pleasure...

http://www.agi-usa.org/pubs/journals/2903097.html

[Evergreen Emerald]

160. Then it is not a crime

Besides the victim being underage, there must be a difference in age between the two

In WA
if the child is under 12 years of age / there must be 24 months difference

if the child is 12, 13 there must be 36 months difference

If the child is 14 or 15 there must be 48 months difference in age

[MontageOfFreedom]

139. Wow...

That's amazing. So is this mistake of a kid now custody of the state?

[Fridays Child]

141. How in the world could the question before the court be...

...whether she is mature enough to make this decision? Of course, she's not. But she's also not mature enough to engage in consentual sex.

Thirteen year old girls get pregnant by coercion, at the very least--if not rape, outright. Why would somebody in the Florida Department of Children and Families act against her best interests by bringing this before the court? Does the state need another ward?

It doesn't make any sense...unless the unborn child's future has already been decided. Has this baby been promised to prospective adoptive parents? Has money changed hands? Has a deal been made? It makes you wonder.

In any case, it always seems that, somewhere beneath the fundie insanity, there lurks a profit motive.

[dbt]

142. How come it's ALWAYS a MALE who tells a female

what she CAN and CANNOT do with HER OWN BODY?

Bonus Question: how come it's ALWAYS the FOREIGN MEDIA that tells the truth about Amerika?

[strategery blunder]

143. The former question, I cannot answer.

My theory on the latter question appears on this thread (ironically, on a forum hosted in the UK).

(My username on the other forum is Evil Woody Thoughts.)

[still_one]

144. two states to avoid

texas and florida

[imenja]

148. what are the parental notification laws in your own state?

In Florida, teenagers are free to have abortions without parental notification.

[Hugin]

156. Look it up... Great site. Broken down State by State.

http://www.agi-usa.org/pubs/journals/2903097.html

[imenja]

167. this is a case about abortion rights

not statutory rape.

[still_one]

173. it is a case of wanting to control a woman's body and health

it is total B.S. There are healthcare providers who will cover viagra but won't cover birth control...

[imenja]

176. and your comment relates to Prag's link to statutory rape laws

in what way?

It would help to read the articles from the Palm Beach Post or the Sun Sentinel to know what the issues in the case are about. Insurance coverage is not the problem. It is that DCF is seeking to usurp a girl's legally sanctioned reproductive rights.

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/search/content/local_news/...

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/search/content/news/epaper...


http://www.palmbeachpost.com/search/content/custom/blog...


http://www.palmbeachpost.com/search/content/news/epaper/2005/04/30/m1a_dcf_0430.html

[still_one]

172. no problem here in california

Sorry if I offended you about Florida, but obviously the majority of people in Florida like their leaders or they wouldn't keep voting them in...

Yes, I realize that you can't paint a whole state with one brush, but that is just the way I feel as long as jeb and the other elected officials control that state

[imenja]

175. The state government here is insane

And you of course can feel what you like, but it is generally better if that is based on accurate information. Minors have unrestricted rights to abortion in Florida, unlike many states in the country. Texas requires notification of one parent, but consent of neither. http://www.reproductiverights.org/st_law_notification.html


Part of the problem with this thread is that it's based on a very weak article that doesn't lay out the circumstances of the case and presents it as though it has already been resolved. (And it's LBN because the BBC just discovered a story that's been circulating for several days, that they then misreport?) If you're interested in knowing the status of the case, look for the articles I like to in a post under the subject line "here." You could also search the Sun Sentinel, linked above in the thread to which this one has been joined.

[imenja]

145. the injunction is temporary

The case is still being adjudicated. This is a poor article on the subject. Florida law allows teens to have abortions without parental notification. DCF is trying to stop the abortion, but the ACLU is representing the girl.

By the way, what is latest breaking about this? The temporary injunction was issued early last week.

[Branjor]

149. The DCF and judge

ought to be convicted of child abuse. Imagine FORCING a 13 year old child to undergo nine months of pregnancy and give birth.

[strategery blunder]

150. I cannot find where in the article...

it said the injunction was issued last week. So I thought it was new.

If you have another article stating this, you probably should post a link.

Edit because at 5:30 am I can't get my timezones straight:banghead:

[imenja]

152. Here

The BBC article says virtually nothing. There have been a number of threads on this subject on DU over the past week.

Here are a couple of links to articles that discuss the legal status of the case:

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/search/content/local_news/epaper/2005/04/29/m1a_dcf_0429.html

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/search/content/news/epaper/2005/04/28/m1a_dcf_0428.html


http://www.palmbeachpost.com/search/content/custom/blogs/editorial/archives/002505.html

You'll may need to sign up to access the articles.

[imenja]

155. another

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/search/content/news/epaper/2005/04/30/m1a_dcf_0430.html

[Hekate]

153. Age 13: very high risk pregnancy

By the Goddess, a 13 year old's body is still growing. Just because she has a uterus and she ovulates does not mean she is physically ready to carry a fetus to term. Both she and her baby-to-be could be in big trouble thanks to these judgmental idiots.

Hekate
:argh:

[dandrhesse]

161. For what it's worth on the knowledge part of this argument

You might be stunned to know that when I was in college my roommate was peer health counselor, she gave info sessions about birth control and ST D's now mind you these women and men were in college UCLA campus and at least 17-18 years old and some of them still believed the age old myth of "you can't get pregnant the first time?!" "you can get an STD from a doorknob"

I am not making this up, I wish I were! It never ceased to amaze me that these "educated" young adults would believe these things, so we shouldn't make any assumptions as to what a 13 year-old believed or didn't believe.

Another experience is my mom who is now 66. She worked for the Dept of Public Health in Los Angeles back in the late 50's and she personally spoke to incest victims who were pregnant at as young as 10 and thought they got that way by sitting on wet grass! That is what they were told, they didn't associate the abuse with getting pregnant!

The conclusion I have reached is never assume anyone "knows better" or whatever, we all come from a unique perspective.

This girl should be allowed to have an abortion and Jeb Bush she keep his nose out of her business, and if he and his cohorts are behind this then they should be jailed for breaking the law and comprising this girls health and her right to choose!

[Festivito]

157. Perhaps they could charge HER as an adult for rape of the boy.

Yet still say she has no right to make her own decision on her own abortion because she is too young.

[Zynx]

162. My question is: Why is a 13 year old having unprotected sex?

Where the hell are the parents?

[Shallah Kali]

163. She was taken from her parents in 1998 - State of FL is her parent now

see here:
http://www.palmbeachpost.com/localnews/content/news/epaper/2005/04/30/m1a_dcf_0430.html

[RCPJAP]

169. Judge bans abortion for 13 year old girl

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1474480,00.html

[Shallah Kali]

171. Article "maybe there's a shortage of unwanted children needing adoption"

DCF out of bounds on teen's abortion
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/columnists/sfl-phoward01may01,0,6955171.column

But as is so often the case with anti-abortion forces, the troubled living don't matter as much as the yet-to-be-born.

So DCF -- reflecting the "culture of life" leanings of Florida's governor and legislative leaders so recently showcased in the Terri Schiavo case -- roused itself from its torpor regarding L.G. with an urgent, proprietary interest in the welfare of her womb.

SNIP

"The courts are the only arena to decide if a 13-year-old is mature enough to make that decision," said Rep. John Stargel, R-Lakeland.

Funny that the moral guardians never seem to ask the courts to decide whether a 13-year-old is mature enough to be a parent.

DCF policy: Forcing babies to have babies
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/columnists/11524633.htm

An even better question for the extremists at DCF is this: How can any 13-year-old child, from any background, be ready for motherhood?

SNIP

DCF insists that it's forbidden by law to let any person under its supervision undergo an abortion or sterilization procedure. Apparently this is to ensure that the agency will never run out of clients.

SNIP

In a way, she's one of the lucky ones; she only got pregnant. Others in state care have been tortured, raped, killed or, in the case of Rilya Wilson, vaporized into thin air.

SNIP

Two years ago, DCF fought to block a severely retarded Orlando woman from having an abortion. In that case, the agency litigated for so many months that the operation could not be safely performed. The woman gave birth, and the infant was put up for adoption.

[Erika]

179. Jeb Bush's email address

is [e-mail]

Let him know it is the female's decision to make - regardless of her age.

[DetroitDem]

180. too young

This is not her decision she's a 13 years old girl it up to her guardian in this case the state of Florida. There's reason why major decision like are left to parents at that age. I'm not against someone that young having an abortion if the parents make the decision, but someone that young shouldn't be able to decided something that life altering

[MissB]

181. As opposed to giving birth

Which isn't life-altering at all, right?

Yeah, that's it.

[Moderator]

182. I am locking this

Because this thread has stopped being productive and keeps devolving into the same points/counterpoints over and over.