US satellite recorded checkpoint shooting, shows speed of Italian car: CBS

[Cicero]

WASHINGTON (AFP) - A US satellite reportedly recorded a checkpoint shooting in Iraq last month, enabling investigators to reconstruct how fast a car carrying a top Italian intelligence official and a freed hostage was traveling when US troops opened fire.

The report, which aired Thursday on CBS News, said US investigators concluded from the recording that the car was traveling at a speed of more than 60 miles (96 km) per hour.

Giuliana Sgrena has said the car was traveling at a normal speed of about 30 miles an hour when the soldiers opened fired, wounding her and killing Nicola Calipari, the Italian agent who had just secured her release from a month's captivity.

<snip>

CBS said Italian investigators refused to accept that the Americans were justified in shooting so quickly, arguing among other things that the checkpoint was not properly marked.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20050429/pl_afp/italyusiraqsatellite_050429162837;_ylt=Arjg3cLaI9SskuMfdpXZv8GsOrgF;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl

....

OK, who else here wants to see a copy of this "recording"?

:shrug:

Later,

[Carolab]

1. The Italians say the US is lying.

They're outraged.

[Tigress DEM]

60. CNN has finally - about 2 weeks after the fact ....

Finally ran a story about the Military being cleared of all wrong doing. You would think now that their honesty is "proven" CNN would be happy to shout it from the rooftops after all the heat the US was under at the time of the shooting.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/04/30/italian.shooting/index...

Having read Truth Out's investigation into the first murder of reporters by the military I knew it wouldn't be the fault of the man with the gun, but higher up.

Part I-IV
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/022505A.shtml

Still CNN could pretend they give a damm and at least lead with that story. Even just from a profit standpoint more people would be interested in what happened there than to some poor girl who ran away from her wedding.

[okieinpain]

64. so they just happened to have a military satellite tracking her car

is that because they knew she was being released.

[Tigress DEM]

65. Smirk

[pnutchuck]

76. Didn't we have stellite photos of Saddam's WMD's too?

sorry, but this admin has lost all credibility with me especially, since the news is breaking that Blair and Bush planned this war from the get go and doctored the intel around it.

[DulceDecorum]

96. Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty & CNN had nuke plant photos

2/14/2005
CNN's Nuke Plant Photos Identical for Both Iran and N. Korea!
Who's the source for the photos?!
Two stories posted in the last week on the CNN website, one on nukes in Iran last Wednesday, and another on nukes in North Korea on Saturday, both use the same aerial photograph of the same purported nuclear power plant!
But one is supposed to be in Iran and the other is supposed to be in North Korea!
http://www.bradblog.com/archives/00001187.htm

2/15/2005
Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty used Photo of same Nuke Plant -- presumably from Iran -- in a N. Korea Story in Early 2004!
<snip>
And now...thanks to some crack sleuthing by "EarlG", an administrator over at Democratic Underground, we've discovered yet another "news" outlet who used another photograph of that same facility -- which is apparently in Iran -- in yet another story on North Korean nukes!
The newly discovered story is from March of 2004 and found on the Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty website!
http://www.bradblog.com/archives/00001189.htm

What was that they said about the Sgrena assassination-attempt satellite photos?

[DoYouEverWonder]

2. So where were the shooters?

In front of the car or behind?

[Laughing Mirror]

71. The car was driving away from a tank parked on the side of the road

what the US is trying to call a checkpoint. It was not a checkpoint, it was an ambush. The car was shot from behind on the right.

There are two people alive to testify to this: the journalist and the driver.

And then, there is the car.

[DoYouEverWonder]

77. So if the tape can show the speed of the car

then it will clearly show where the troops and equipment that did the shooting were located.

[Laughing Mirror]

83. The tape can show whatever you want it to

We have two living witnesses (victims) and a bullet-riddled car that show the actual results.

[DoYouEverWonder]

86. Besides, there would be no way to know

if it was a tape of the actual event or a reenactment.

[democracyindanger]

3. Yes, unfortunately due to security concerns

the recording will be unavailble to the Italian government. But stay tuned, because Bob Novak will destroy another clandestine CIA agent's cover in the next segment.

[keopeli]

4. What a relief! Now all they have to do is show us the tape

and we'll see that the car was going 60 MPH. Then, of course, we'll need pictures of the signs warning people that if you drive 60 MPH you will be killed. This could all be over in a day or two - or in a chilling episode of CSI.

[saigon68]

41. This stinks to high heaven

How stoopid do they think we are.

I suppose the satellite could tell us how much change the guy had in his pocket also?

[mhr]

68. Ah, But This Gives Cover For The Fundie Noise Machine

To crank up the squawkers and give us another Shrub inspired headache.

[ngGale]

66. CSI - that's why we won't allow Italy to have the car...

she was riding in with the bullet holes. IMO, looks like the car made a recovery and a movie.:sarcasm:

[w13rd0]

5. So whatever happened...

...to the early reports indicating that it was one of Negropointe's "advance teams" that did the shooting?

[LeighAnn]

6. Why can satellites track obscure Italian cars but not WMD's?

eom

[49jim]

8. or a tall guy on a camel in

the desert......

[Mika]

33. With a dialysis machine in tow.

:eyes:

[uppityperson]

35. Or the guy with 1 leg

jumping from the truck being chased?

[radwriter0555]

84. With the eye patch flapping in the breeze...

ahem.

[cosmicdot]

58. my thought exactly n/t

[radwriter0555]

85. excuse me, the dialysis machines is on the CAMEL.

Geesh.

[Roland99]

52. Damn good question....damn good.

Easy answer:

Because they wanted the "WMDs" to disappear to give them further justification to invade more countries. Although, the WMDs were really destroyed during the inspection process.

[Griffy]

57. WHAT WMD's! cant track what isnt there!! nt

[ThoughtCriminal]

7. That seems unlikely

For a satellite with that high of resoltion to be in the right place in orbit at the right time. Not impossible - I'm sure the DOD is putting a huge effort into Iraq imaging. Just improbable.

What was the weather like that day/time?

[ClintonTyree]

12. Bingo....

what are the chances that satellite was tasked to that specific place at that specific time? :eyes:

I mean, it isn't like the U.S. hasn't manufactured evidence before. If I were the Italians, I'd believe EVERYTHING the U.S. intelligence community tell me. :sarcasm:

[Al-CIAda]

29. x's 2...We are supposed to believe a Sat. just happened to catch

this? Just HOW stupid are we supposed to be?

[pnutchuck]

82. Sgrena's account in Il Manefesto

snip

"The driver twice called the embassy and Italy to say that we were heading towards the airport that I knew was heavily patrolled by US troops.

They told me that we were less than a kilometre away... when... I only remember fire.

At that point, a rain of fire and bullets hit us, silencing forever the cheerful voices of a few minutes earlier.

The driver started yelling that we were Italians. "We are Italians, we are Italians."

Nicola Calipari threw himself on me to protect me and immediately, I repeat, immediately I heard his last breath as he was dying on me.

I must have felt physical pain. I didn't know why.

But then it came to me in a flash, and my mind went immediately to the things the captors had told me.

They declared that they felt fully committed to freeing me but I had to be careful, 'Out there are the Americans, who don't want you to go back'.

more

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4325253.stm

[Massacure]

30. Weather is irrelevant. It could have been Infrared.

I find it funny that the U.S. would take satellite images of checkpoints though.

Wouldn't it also have to be in Geo-synchronous orbit? Wouldn't it be hard to aim at a spot for more than a couple seconds when the satellite is moving at 26,000 miles an hour?

The entire story smells like Bushit.

[ThoughtCriminal]

32. At Geo-Sync aiming isn't a problem, but resolution is

At that distance, you can't resolve that much detail. The satellites that can ID a car have to be in low-Earth orbit, which means that they would only be over the area for a few seconds.

[Laughing Mirror]

72. It was not a checkpoint

There was no checkpoint. They had gone through all the checkpoints. They were already AT the airport. It was a tank parked on the side of the road that started firing on them. It was not a checkpoint.

[sharman]

38. raining n/t

[IntiRaymi]

9. This recording is suspect

Its digital format, not analog.
This detail alone enables the video's handlers to do anything they please with the images contained. Like make a car travelling at 30 mph look like its going at 60 mph, or show mass formations of iraqi tanks poised to attack Saudi Arabia in 1991, or Forrest Gump shake hands with LBJ, etc, etc.
The US Government has a lot to lose from this fiasco, approximately 3000 valuable italian soldiers, so all bets are off.

[OrangeCountyDemocrat]

11. The US Would Never Manipulate Images.Or Votes.,For Their Own Benefit. n/t

[0007]

15. Never!

[phusion]

16. Yes, blasphemy! n/t

:rolleyes:

[Eloriel]

23. A lot more than that to lose, but that for starters I suppose

You won't have too much trouble finding plenty of DUers who automatically don't believe this tripe from the U.S. govt about "what happened," who in fact were suspicious about it from the get go.

Welcome to DU!

Here are just a very few links I saved of the many, mnay here at DU:

discussed here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1302943
Truthout Link: http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/031105Z.shtml
Troops in Shooting Were for Negroponte
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/international/AP-Iraq-Italy-Hostage.html?

discussed here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=1335011&mesg_id=1335011
March 23, 2005
U.S. bars Italians from examining victim’s car
Associated Press
http://www.armytimes.com/story.php?f=1-292925-740304.php


Dissenting Iraq War Veterans Speak Out.
(her article the day before she was released and shot)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x112261

The hubris of Giuliana Sgrena
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x112505

Nicola said, 'You are free. Come with me.' Then they shot (new info)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1307383
Link: http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/story.jsp?story=619537

Americans were not trying to kill me, hostage decides (Sgrena)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1305360

A reason to kill GIULIANA SGRENA: Napalm Raid on Falluja?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1642857

So what's the latest on the Sgrena car, lost, found, on its way to
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3235721

Sgrena's driver survived, right????
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3228302&mesg_id=3228302

You'll be pleased to know that Sgrena's claims are "ABSURD"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3233061&mesg_id=3233061

My 2 Euros on the Sgrena story (Italian journalist)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3234374&mesg_id=3234374

Italian hostage accuses US of trying to kill her as thousands mourn her rescuer
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1432040,00.html
discussed here, with more links:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=1290567#1290603
incl this one:
Berlusconi Victim of Failed Sgrena Assassination
http://www.pej.org/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=2034&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0
and links proving that the U.S. DID know about her release and travel plans (this one and several others, post #63):
http://www.wpherald.com/storyview.php?StoryID=20050307-102934-3147r

Once again, the graf shown on MSM re the "checkpoint" & "high speed"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3230605

Neocon talking point (question) on Sgrena...how did she get to airport
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3230081

Giuliana Sgrena Speaks- My Truth (La mia verita)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1289967

The benefit of the dumb (thoughts on the Sgrena shooting) (Mistrel Boy)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3230066

Italian govt. now warning freed hostage to "be cautious in her accounts"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3229345

Berlusconi told to face up to US over shooting
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1289902

Napalm Raid on Falluja? SGRENA (why she was shot part 1)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3229661
Link: http://www.ilmanifesto.it/pag/sgrena/en/420dd721e0ff0.h

Shooting fallout consumes Italian press (Sunday, 6 March, 2005)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1289451

Companion of Italian journalist says shooting was deliberate
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=1286252#1286349
Link: http://www.news24.com/News24/World/Iraq/0,,2-10-1460_1671944,00.html

[KDLarsen]

25. My thoughts exactly..

... the first thing that popped in when I saw the news: "I wonder if that's the same satellite that showed Iraqi tanks massing tanks on the border to Saudi Arabia in 1991..."

[Rainscents]

10. Sounds like to me, US is trying show Italians are liar...

It looks like to me, CBS is working with Surb. I didn't know, satallite could track the speed of the car on the ground. Give me a F@%kin break.

[Xenotime]

45. I agree.

No satallite is that good....geez

[havocmom]

13. "reconstruct"? Anything anybody in the US government 'reconstructs'

is to be trusted? Why reconstruct? Original didn't show things the way they wanted?

They 'concluded' the car was going 60? Uh huh. Same guys who insisted Iraq was a threat? Same crowd worried that we would see mushroom clouds and killer drones if we didn't invade? They DECIDED the car was going 60 cause that is the spin they made.

Sorry, I will take the Italians' word for what happened. It is more in keeping with the M.O. of the DOD beast.

[stillcool]

14. Maybe Colin Powell can draw us a picture?,...n/t

[bemildred]

17. A Math Lesson

The Killing of Nicola Calipari

Sgrena has told CBS that the car she was in was going 30 mph. At 30 mph, a car is going 15 yards per second. So, according to the U.S. military, they fired warning shots within 2.7 seconds of flashing a warning light, and used "deadly force" 2.3 seconds after that. And actually, if the U.S. military story were true and the car were really travelling at "high speed", let's be generous and call that only 45 mph, that's 22 yards per second, meaning 1.8 seconds between warning lights and warning shots, and 1.6 seconds between warning shots and deadly shots.

Now, there are variables, but typical perception plus reaction times are of the order of 1.5 seconds, that is, the time it takes to perceive a problem (such as a warning signal) and move your foot to the brake. That means that, according to the military's story, shots were fired at the vehicle less than 0.3 seconds after the vehicle could possibly have begun to slow down, even if they were paying close attention and they had immediately perceived that the alleged flashing light was meant as a signal to stop.

However that 0.3 second is actually overstated, because the gunman (or gunmen), attempting to perceive if the car was responding to their warning signal to slow down, have perception and reaction times of their own, so in fact, they were pulling the trigger before they could possibly have perceived if the car were slowing down. And likewise, if the so-called warning shots were supposed to have served any purpose whatsoever, once again the "deadly force" shots were being squeezed off well before the warning shots could possibly have had any effect.

And on that basis, the military has "exonerated itself" from any wrongdoing.

http://www.counterpunch.org/stephens04182005.html

Just so you understand, the timing does not get better at 60 MPH.

[KoKo]

19. Thanks for the post and link about this!

:thumbsup:

[Frederik]

70. Thanks

and even if the speed really was 60 mph - pictures of the car clearly show that it was shot from the side and back, not from the front.

[Zhade]

26. Awesome, thanks for pointing this out.

NT!

[dArKeR]

36. Don't take any small plane flights!

[teryang]

39. Good analysis

I used the same analysis in traffic stop cases, one a fleeing and eluding charge and another a DUI. Works for me.

[daleo]

62. This is a good analysis in my opinion as well. n/t

[Robeson]

18. And we should believe our government, b-e-c-a-u-s-e....

....:shrug: ????

[Pinboy]

20. U.S. reconstructs Rosemary Woods 18 1/2-minute gap...

Nixon Innocent!

[Straight Shooter]

21. I don't give a damn if that car was going 120 miles per hour.

The situation was FUBAR, and it was FUBAR because, in Iraq, the U.S. can't seem to find its a** with both hands.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

22. if you believe that, i have some oceanfront property in Nevada to sell you

[Up2Late]

24. What a load of Bull Sh*t!

:rant: For a satellite to do that, it would have to 2 or 3 Ultra HIGH resolution, Infrared photos (remember, this happened after dark) within about 30 seconds, AND would have to have been in just the right place to do it.

If we DID have a satellite that could do this, wouldn't this make it VERY easy to track and suppress the "Full scale Insurgency" that our troops are fighting?

And here's two more questions, 1) If we had a satellite, positioned over Iraq, that could do this sort of thing, don't you think the CIA would have known, with 99.99% certainty, if Iraq had WMD? and 2) If we did have a satellite capable of doing this, why was it watching this "just released Hostage" that we claim we didn't know was heading to the Airport.

Then their's this, this was one of the first reports that came in that day (before the WH revisionist had begun to spin the story), even though it is in the Turkish Press, it was an AFP Newswire story.

US attack against Italians in Baghdad was deliberate: companion

Published: 3/5/2005

ROME - The companion of freed Italian journalist Giuliana Sgrena on Saturday leveled serious accusations at US troops who fired at her convoy as it was nearing Baghdad airport, saying the shooting had been deliberate. "The Americans and Italians knew about (her) car coming," Pier Scolari said on leaving Rome's Celio military hospital where Sgrena is to undergo surgery following her return home. "They were 700 meters (yards) from the airport, which means that they had passed all checkpoints."

The shooting late Friday was witnessed by Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi's office which was on the phone with one of the secret service agents, said Scolari. "Then the US military silenced the cellphones," he charged. "Giuliana had information, and the US military did not want her to survive," he added.

When Sgrena was kidnapped on February 4 she was writing an article on refugees from Fallujah seeking shelter at a Baghdad mosque after US forces bombed the former Sunni rebel stronghold. Sgrena told RaiNews24 television Saturday a "hail of bullets" rained down on the car taking her to safety at Baghdad airport, along with three secret service agents, killing one of them.

"I was speaking to (agent) Nicola Calipari (...) when he leant on me, probably to protect me, and then collapsed and I realized he was dead," said Sgrena, who was being questioned on Saturday by two Italian magistrates. "They continued shooting and the driver couldn't even explain that we were Italians. It was really horrible," she added...

(more at link above)

Add to all this the "Cover-up" elements and the U.S. story that keeps changing and the history of OUR current Governments LIES!

I'm Sorry, I'm Calling BULLSHIT on this one. This was a CIA/Task Force 20, Hit. :mad: :nuke: :grr: :rant:

[Zhade]

27. LIARS.

NT!

[riverwalker]

28. let me get this straight

they can't tell friend from foe from 50 yards away, yet they can pinpoint that specific car from space and how fast it was going?
Uh-huh.

[high density]

31. Note to Bush Admin: This is not "24" or "Alias"... this is real life.

:eyes:

Do they actually expect us to believe this crap?

[bpilgrim]

34. are there any other satellites to back'm up?

or did we shoot or scare them all down?


http://images.globalfreepress.com

peace

[w4rma]

37. So they were tracking the car and blew it away, anyway? Good grief. (nt)

[Pinboy]

40. Nominated

[rfkrfk]

42. Has Kerry commented about this?

I think he is on the Senate Inteligence committee,
what does he say?

[unhappycamper]

43. The Department of War should send an email to all

news organizations in the world notifying them they may be shot if they print something Rummmy or Torturemanda or * don't like. This way we can avoid this annoying squabble. It detracts us from the hard work ahead.

[AuntiBush]

44. Italy must be up in arms, out-raged.

Is it any wonder we're hated and fears around the globe.

You know, the conservatives, republicans and Bush supporters don't get it. There isn't anything proud in being the biggest, meanest bully on the block.

No, it's more so an even bigger responsibility to uphold what's right to others. In reality, bullies are seen as cowards pushing their might around.

[Festivito]

46. NPR top news: US exoneration. ..Didn't that report came out 2 weeks ago???

Why would a report exonerating US forces from two weeks ago be the top NPR news story today? Only a few days after the car arrived in Italian hands.

Preemptive attack against an Italian report?

[Laughing Mirror]

73. Also because Italy contests the "findings" of the report

on two major points. They aren't buying it. If they were it would become just another one of those numberless "unfortunate accidents" that slip off into the memory hole.

[bush_is_wacko]

47. Those soldiers knew full well who was in that car.

I don't give a shit how fast it was traveling. but yeah, WTF is the tape?

[Laughing Mirror]

74. We don't know if the soldiers knew

They might not have. Commander Green, on the other hand, has not denied that he knew the car was on the road. He was informed by the Italian General. The Italian General was informed by Calipari 20 or 25 minutes before the attack.

[bush_is_wacko]

88. They either knew or were deliberately NOT informed of who was in the car

This administration and everything it touches uses "plausible deny-ability" masterfully. You are correct the he never denied knowing it and maybe he did set the soldiers up, but HE ought to face charges and really I think they knew too. They just know better than to admit it. "It was an accident" will keep their butts out of jail and my even keep HIS butt out of jail. I'm sure he will claim some sort of radio miscommunication or something.

[daleo]

48. The physics of this is improbable to say the least.

There would always be some uncertainty in location from satellites - even military GPS has limits for example (1 to 10 meters?). The time period in question is only a few seconds long. I suppose that if you took the convenient outlier estimates of the car's location at the two points in time (rather than the mean estimates) you could get some high estimate of speed. An analogy would be a poll result with a 5% margin of error showing Bush at 48% and Kerry at 52%. You can make the claim from the sample result that the actual population preference could be Bush 53, Kerry 47, and technically you wouldn't be lying - just using statistical concepts misleadingly.

Remember, they often strive to not lie in a literal sense, just mislead, so I wouldn't be surprised if some method like this is how they got the conveniently high speed estimate.

Always assuming, as others have pointed out, that they had a satellite observing that area at that point in time and could actually identify the car in question with any degree of reliability.

I doubt very much any of this would hold up in a court of law. It reminds me of the O.J. Simpson trial, when people said the military must have recordings of the murder, since they have satellites in orbit that watch everything. It would take millions of satellites (at least, probably billions) to cover the earth with anything like the required resolution.

[bemildred]

49. Googleing, I get about 1 meter, talking about .1 meter soon. nt

[daleo]

63. Assuming they tracked the cell phone here is a relevant discussion:

http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=505792

"Nowadays, this same Emergency 911 center has the technology to
pinpoint all cellular telephone calls within a 25-100 meter radius of
the caller. This is done with overlapping signal monitors that
triangulate in order to identify the most likely global positioning
coordinates. I tell you this in order to illustrate how difficult and
also rare this ability is, but also to explain how the process is
commonly done (the FCC has now mandated that this technology be
installed).
...
locate a cellular telephone by pinging the phone – a kind of triangulation process similar to the one I mentioned earlier...the cell phone appears as a ‘blip” on a screen...a successfully completed ping that will indicate within approximately 50 feet, where the phone was located at the time of the ping."

This is a civilian application, and naturally the military would be able to make a more precise fix. But it gives an indication of the difficulty of the problem.

If they were just going by visual identification of the car, there are several uncertainties that I think would come into play: the exact location of the satellite must be known during at least two sightings and the exact time of both sightings must be known. The angle of the satellite camera's view of the earth would have to be known with great accuracy to know what spot on the earth was being observed. All of this is complicated by the fact that the satellite is moving at about 18000 miles per hour (about 5 miles per second). The whole thing seems doubtful in the extreme.

[reality based]

75. It was raining that night

That's why Negroponte had traveled by land vehicle rather than by helicopter to meet General Casey in the airport area. Negroponte's presence in the area was supposedly why his escort had set up the "checkpoint" on the curve in the road leading to the airport. Had the weather cleared enough to permit conventional visual observations from a satellite? I suppose there are other technologies possible, but I 'm not persuaded by this leak through CBS.

[daleo]

91. I read somewhere that they claimed to have used infra red

In which case there is not much more than a heat signature to go on. This evidence would be laughed out of court, but Bush would consider it good enough to start a war.

[bemildred]

81. My experience, which is out of date,

was that 10 meters was excellent resolution as a practical matter.
Simply adding extra digits doesn't mean you accomplished much. I
was just relaying what I found they are claiming.

This issue is a red herring anyway, the issue is not where they were
or how fast they were going.

[daleo]

92. Agreed that it is a red herring.

I am just chipping away at the story on general grounds of credibility, I suppose.

[IChing]

50. I have been reading Italian

newspapers and there is a huge conflict on the satellite data between the US and Italians
The US is saying "take our word" but you can't see it because of security reasons. This is reported be the Italian investigators. See my pictures on the other threads in regards to this farce.

[DoYouEverWonder]

78. What a crock of shit

It was okay to broadcast all kinds of satellite imagery when it shows us killing the bad guys or blowing up their stuff but they can't show us Segrena's car? The only security they are protecting are their own asses.

[Briar]

51. I see

So US satellites failed to see WMD being trucked into Syria (according to that explanation of why none why found) but just happened to be directed at one particular stretch of road at one particular time and logged one particular car...

If nothing else, this explains why the US doesn't want the EU to set up an alternative, higher resolution global satellite tracking system. It would be way too easy to disprove their claims...

[lumpy]

53. What has the speed of the car have

to do with it? Shifting the focus off the facts of the case?

[DoYouEverWonder]

79. That is there whole excuse for shooting them

that they were speeding and wouldn't stop. Then they claimed that they had signaled the car to stop but they didn't. If this is true it will be clear in the tape.

[autorank]

54. Well, I bet we're lying! Just a hunch but there's a big difference.

Oh, I'm sure that this satellite information was "just discovered."

[karlrschneider]

55. Kick while I analyze this...

so many neocons, so few bullets...

[Griffy]

56. If they shot at the front of the car.. why did the driver survive and ...

the people in the back hit! I know bushco is opposed to the truth, so its likely they shot at her to stop her eyewitness reporting from Falluja... small potatos in the world of bush lies and killing, but its another example of the way these noecons operate!

[Laughing Mirror]

67. Giuliana Sgrena says they shot at the car from the back

AMY GOODMAN: Did they shoot from the front or from the back?

GIULIANA SGRENA: No, on the back, not on the front. They shot on the back, because Calipari was on the back on the right and he was shot dead immediately, and I was injured on my shoulder, but I was shot by the back. So I am a proof that they were shooting on the back and not in front of the car. We can see by my injury where I was shot.

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=05/04/27/1350235

[EC]

59. Aren't they kinda backing themselves into a corner here?

Either the car was going only 30 miles a hour and there were warning shots and then aimed shots = in the wrong (since car was going slow enough to know they weren't running, or a threat)


or


The car was going 60 miles a hour and there were no warning shots - just shoot to kill = in the wrong (in for the kill from the start)

[Tigress DEM]

61. See math lesson on post #17

It explains that even at 30mph there wasn't enough time between warning shots and deadly shots.

[Andrushka]

69. Hey,

if they can track Wil Smith running down a crowded street, they can track this car, OK?

/sarcasm

[Henny Penny]

80. They're gonna have to release the vid...

but something tells me they won't...
They've had plenty of time to edit it, but obviously it still doesn't look too convincing.!!!

"US investigators concluded from the recording that the car was traveling at a speed of more than 60 miles (96 km) per hour."

Sure, but no doubt, AFTER the shooting started!

Can't wait to see what the Italians say about it.

[Shell Beau]

87. What I do not understand is what would we have to gain

by shooting this car out on purpose. I really want to believe that it was a mistake. I try to put myself in the position of the soldiers who never know when a bomb will go off or a random car will explode. However, this does sound weird and I hope that the "supposed" tape will clear soldiers. But it is sketchy.

Edit for spelling

[daleo]

93. She was well known as an anti-war journalist.

She was also one of the few journalists who had inside knowledge of the Fallujah operation. In addition she had been held hostage by the resistance, so she may have gained some knowledge from them. So, at least three motives present themselves:

- stop the disclosure of potentially damning information by killing her.
- failing that, intimidate her into silence.
- create a general climate of fear among journalists of all nationalities, to discourage them coming to Iraq and to influence their reporting through fear if they do show up.

Those who theorize that this was a deliberate move usually assume that the troops were not your normal 'scared kids' but special operatives along the lines of those used in Viet Nam or Central America.

[Shell Beau]

95. Makes sense.

[fortyfeetunder]

89. The finest case of selective satellite tracking

Surely we can't find all the insurgents and Osama bin Laden, but we can track down a car carrying Italian diplomats. What a concept!!!

[tiredofthisstuff]

90. Why was there a satellite trained in on this car in the first place???

Sounds to me like the explanation only brings up more questions.

[clem_c_rock]

94. Naomi Klien interview here - disputes every aspect of the US

story - including which road they were on.

Why don't we hear about this?

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=05/03/25/1516242&mode=thread&tid=25