Girl Sticks Schoolmates With Used Needle

[Rose Siding]

PHILADELPHIA -- A third-grader stuck 19 schoolmates with her mother's diabetes blood-testing needle this week, and one pricked student tested positive for HIV on a preliminary test, officials said.

Health officials said the virus could not have been contracted from the needle stick, and they noted that preliminary tests can yield false positives. The risk to students who were stuck after the possibly infected child depends on factors including the depth of the stick, health officials said.

The 8-year-old stuck her Taylor Elementary schoolmates Wednesday at the school's breakfast, at lunch and in the classroom, using a needle that was about one-third of an inch long, on the end of a device that looks like a pen, school officials said. They were unsure why the girl did it.

She was suspended and will probably be moved to another school, said Paul Vallas, the school district's chief executive.

http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/wire/sns-ap-needle-stick,0,4893845.story?coll=sns-ap-nationworld-headlines

[Arkana]

1. OK...I want to know how the kid got ahold of a dirty needle

in the first place.

[onehandle]

3. The same way kids get guns.

It wasn't locked up, or in this case disposed of properly.

[Heddi]

5. It says it was

with her mother's diabetes blood-testing needle this week

I've worked as a Phlebotomist (blood-drawer) for several years, and those red Sharps Containers aren't as foolproof as people would like you to believe.

A gal I worked with (and this is so unbelievable), dropped her pen accidentally into the sharps container. She just reached right in, got it out, washed it off with some alcohol and voila! New pen.

Espeically the smaller, more portable sharps container that have just an opening in the top---you could just stick your hand in there if you wanted to.

[merwin]

7. It's not a dirty needle. It's most likely a finger-pricking device, used

to draw blood for a blood sugar test. The needles used for insulin injections are much longer than 1/3 inch and do not look anything like a pen.

[progressivebydesign]

11. It was her Mom's insulin needle pen.

It states that, not very clearly, in the article. She got her mom's discarded insulin needle and took it to school. The girl that tested positive for HIV, was either a false positive (which they say is common in prelim HIV testing - which begs the question of the worth of that test), or has it from some other source. The girl who stuck the kids' mother apparently has diabetes, is not a drug addict, and apparently is not HIV+

[caligirl]

15. I just went to a conference on diabetes and saw some insulin pens

The newest one for kids looks very colorful and you wouldn't know it was for insulin delivery. The newest insulin pens are slim and made to look less medical. Makes it much nicer considering how many people act like assholes around diabetics who have to have insulin before thy can eat. The only thing worse than managing diabetes ins the horrendous insensitivity of family, strangers and friends if they have to inject.

[Heddi]

28. I had a training lesson on those as well

They really do look just like pens. Unless you REALLY look at it, it looks no different than any other barrel pen that people use to write.

[Horse with no Name]

40. One of our clients invented this...take a look

It looks like a ball point pen and you never ever see the needle. It is ready to inject in a minute. One of the markets is the military for biological warfare antidotes.
Once you use it, the needle is gone and it never comes out.
You can throw it in the regular trash.

http://www.pharma-pen.com/

[LisaL]

22. It was her mother diabetes testing needle.

The kid most likely picked it up after the mother discarded it.

[indy_azcat]

2. who's more culpable: kid, school, or mom? n/t

[caligirl]

10. the mom, although this is a small device easily fits into your jeans

pocket, however it kind of hurts so I wonder what was happening that the teacher didn't catch it after the second one. My son has been doing this for three years and it still occassionally hurts.

[Horse with no Name]

31. The kid. At this age she should know better.

But the Mom probably should have explained to her not to touch these things because they were dangerous if she didn't already.
I can't see the school being at fault in this one.

[progressivebydesign]

12. Kid.

She simply took the thing out of the trash. 3rd graders do stupid things.

[caligirl]

14. It shouldn't have been in the trash so easily accessible. Our

garbage company,and the EPA, has developed stringent guidelines for the disposal of this material,. They have it available if anyone calls to ask. I guess not everyone knows this.

[NewHampshireDem]

4. Dupe

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x3146676

[IronLionZion]

6. Before I judge anyone, I just want to say...

:wtf: ???

How the hell can a kid stick 19 kids with a needle before getting caught? Doesn't anyone notice these things going on?

Poor kids. I hope they're OK.

[caligirl]

8. I'll bet that mom was looking all over for that lancet, we get

panicked when we can't find our sons, you have to test so often.

I can hear school nurses now, ban diabetics from school. This is one of their fears, not ever thinking of the teachers we know of who stuck each kid with the same device in science class for a class lesson.

[booksenkatz]

9. Moved to another school? To hurt a new set of children?

Instead of moving her, how about REmoving her? Sheesh, this guy sounds like Cardinal Law: shuffle the problem around and hope it goes away.

[caligirl]

13. While I don't like what happened, I do think their are some

procedures they need to follow, if this was a first, I'm not sure they can RE move her. In that childs mind she might see the lancet as a toy and her mom needs to clear that up, she must have her lancet to test to regulate her insulin and carb intake. She needs to explain clearly this is an important medical device and no one else use it.

[booksenkatz]

35. True enough, but the girl has problems w/impulse control, too,

and the violation of others' personal space and bodies. She needs evaluation and help, and may require removal from a classroom-type education -- maybe something more along the lines of tutoring.

[WalrusSlayer]

16. Extremely misleading title, move along...

The girl had a Lancet. Not a needle. Not a hypodermic syringe.

A Lancet.

The lancets themselves are tiny, and the device they are loaded into does looks very much like an oversize pen. Especially if you hadn't seen one before (which I hadn't until my wife suffered through gestational diabetes). So it's not surprising that it wasn't immediately obvious what was going on.

I agree that what the kid was doing wrong, and that the mother should be more careful with her glucometer. But this story is unneccesarily over the top. It's not like the 3rd grader was running around with Mom's drug paraphenilia that was left out on the coffee table or some such hyperbole.

[caligirl]

18. You touch on something that we started sensing after

our son was diagnosed, nearly died, the attitude of others that is really uncalled for. Ignorance I guess.

A lancet is plasic, about 5 inches long and half inch wide, navy or white, and it has a tiny needle loaded inside on a slide spring. Slide it back with your thumb on a sliding button and push the other button above it to release the spring, causing the tiny needle to pop out for a split second. Pushing the release button makes noise which at 19 times the teacher should have heard. i am sitting here trying this on my sons backup lancet, it makes a quick click noise.

[LisaL]

23. One of the kids she pricked with that needle tested possible

for HIV. If she pricked other kids after that one, it's possible she infected them with HIV. Hardly a harmless prank.

[SoCalDem]

17. What the HELL is wrong with that kid??

That would be the starting place?? And why would any child be the SECOND, THIRD, etc one stuck..?? Surely after the first one was stuck, the rest of the kids would scatter and tell someone...not stand there waiting for their "turn"..

[caligirl]

19. This was a THIRD grader. Even some adults do stupid shit, but this was a

kid playing a game. It was bad but I doubt she fully understood this at her age. LIke any bad thing she needs to learn from this. Its not like a dog mauling, lets go tazer and arrest a third grader.

[bullimiami]

21. exactly. a THIRD grader. probably goofing around and poking kids.

kid is probably stunned to be embroiled in such a huge deal about it. probably she didnt have a clue.

dont we have any sense as a society anymore? did they handcuff her and toss her in solitary? render her off to gitmo for some serious 'questioning'.

[LisaL]

26. Did you not read that one of the kids tested HIV positive?

Isn't it clear why it's such a big deal-there is a possibility the kids got infected with HIV.

[Horse with no Name]

33. If a child tested positive

It was either a false-negative or else they already had it from a different source. It wasn't from this incident.
HIV does not immediately seroconvert and the chances of her getting it from this method are very remote.
The other thing that would be dangerous would be Hepatitis B, but the children should have all been immunized for that.

[LisaL]

46. I know that the HIV positive child didn't get it from this needle.

But when she stuck the needle into an HIV positive child,and then into the other children, she could have infected them with HIV. The poor kids will now have to go on anti-viral drugs, like those given to rape victims.

[MARALE]

20. Actually they probably were waiting their turn

She probably asked if the kids wanted to see their blood and who was brave enough to get pricked, etc. This could not have been a little girl going around sticking kids, they would have found out before 19 kids had been pricked. She was probably showing them what her mom has to do to test herself and did not know it was bad. It is too bad they have to remove her from school.

[LisaL]

24. Nothing like making up a fantasy out of thin air...

[Gyre]

30. You don't speculate much do you?

Are you high, drunk, or just unable to distinguish between fact and fiction?

Gyre

[slackmaster]

25. Sounds like a classic cry for attention

The girl must have some problems at home.

[SoCalDem]

27. I feel for the poor little kid who tested positive

If i's a false positive, that would be wonderful, but it's possible that this little kid will be ostracized, or if the name is not released, ALL the kids stuck will be "suspected" as "being the one"..:(

[BlueIris]

60. That's the thing that made me the saddest.

Yes, I know that unfortunately, there are a lot of HIV+ children in the world, but one of my local affiliates chose to say that the school officials apparently (?) told people that the possibly HIV+ kid likely already had the illness before the incident and when I heard that I went, "a THIRD grader?" Once again, yes, I know that happens but how sad. And what if the kid is positive and didn't know about his or her health status until now? To find out like this? Terrible.

[Horse with no Name]

29. This child needs to be educated regarding her mom's diabetic stuff

And the mother needs to keep better track of her stuff.
HOWEVER--if a child tested HIV+ immediately after being stuck, it means she was already HIV+--from another source.
Seroconversion from a negative to a postive status does not take place until 3 weeks to 6 months after being exposed to the HIV virus. Which is why when you get stuck with a needle, they do baseline testing to find out if you were already positive or became positive after the needlestick.
This is the science of it--it is undisputed. There has NEVER been an immediate seroconversion.

Edited to add:
Also--HIV is a blood-borne pathogen. Which means that in order to be affected, there has to be a Blood-Blood transmission. It would have been very difficult for that child to hit a vein on another child with a lancet.

[slackmaster]

32. Article does not say that the girl's mom is HIV positive

:shrug:

[sonicx]

34. Give her a spanking. That'll fix her...

:crazy:

Sersiously, this girl is nuts.

[hyphenate]

36. That's not even a needle

It's a lancet. It's the instrument you use to prick yourself to get blood to test.

We're talking about a spring loaded item here, with no needle barrel, just the very sharp top that pierces your finger tip.

I agree what the child did was wrong, but I will bet that too many people will make a federal case out of something completely and totally minor.

And of one of the children is HIV positive, it certainly didn't come from that lancet. I would suggest that the HIV+ child probably got it from someone likely to be in their family, and perhaps this is a good thing--the chance to follow up immediately, raising the chances that the child might survive.

[booksenkatz]

38. Then surely you won't mind rolling up your sleeve

and letting me poke you with it after I've poked 18 others with it first...? I mean, cripes, it's not even a needle, right?

Sorry -- not my child. This girl has problems controlling her impulses and has no problem with invading others' bodies. I don't want her sitting next to my kid. She needs help.

/A Mom.

[Horse with no Name]

39. ahhh patsi

didn't you ever as a child take a needle and thread and sew your fingers together?
Kids are curious about that kind of stuff--granted it NEVER should have happened but it was morbid curiosity, probably from all these kids.
She probably took it to school to show her friends she could poke herself with a "needle" and not cry...and when she did, all the other kids probably said "do me do me" so they could show how "brave" they were.
I'm not excusing this at all, it shouldn't have happened...but with the size of the lancet if they didn't want to be stuck, they wouldn't have been stuck unless they were chased down. It said they were all stuck on the fingers. They would have had to offer their fingers willingly.
Normal curiosity presenting in an abnormal situation.
The school never would have known if they were all in a little conclave poking each other. If she had time to poke that many kids, then nobody was running around screaming--they were probably all complicit in this.

[booksenkatz]

41. Horse, you're one of the DUers I respect very much

and I appreciate the respect with which you've responded. I dunno 'bout this one, though, pardner. I admit that I'd like to know the scenario -- my vision was an out-of-control little troublemaker, your scenario suggested willing participation of the other children, which may or may not have been true.

The boys in my middle school used to do the most HORRIFYING thing with their ballpoint pens. They'd pull off the silver clip, leaving a rough metal stub. Then they'd scrape the stub on the back of a willing boy's hand as they repeatedly asked, "Man or mouse?" and if the willing participant answered "man," the scraping would continue; if the willing participant answered "mouse," the scraping would stop. The boys had horrid, virtually gangrenous, infected scabs on the backs of their hands until someone put a stop to it. It is my hope that we can educate our children better today...! Yikes.

[Horse with no Name]

42. Well I was one of those little heathens

that willingly slit my fingers so we could be "blood sisters",lol.
Remember how you had to smear your blood together?
Anyway, kids do stupid stuff. Hopefully the blood brothers/sisters is an idea whose time has passed. With the bloodborne diseases out there today--yikes!
These kids shouldn't have done this, but we did stupid stuff too before we knew better.
And educating these kids is the key.
My kids were told when they started kindergarten. Don't share anything on your body. Don't share your brush, your hats, spit, blood, anything. Share only the things outside your body--toys, games, pencils, etc.
I honestly think this child was just in awe of the fact that this doesn't hurt and was showing off to her friends.
However--again--in society today, it never should have happened.
Thanks for the compliment--I'm pretty much in awe of you and your level head.:)

[booksenkatz]

43. Back atcha! ;) nt

[LisaL]

45. Nothing like little fun and games?

I am sure all those children will have to take anti-viral drugs.

[Horse with no Name]

47. Very doubtful

Transmission requires a blood-blood transmission.
IF there was any blood on the lancet it was dried.
The virus doesn't survive well in the environment.
Drying of HIV infected human blood reduces the threat of environmental transmission to essentially zero.
It does not spread or maintain it's infectiousness outside of its human host, nor does it spread outside of it's host.

Education does wonders to allay fears of the spread of AIDS. It's a hell of alot harder to get than most think.

http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/pubs/facts/transmission.pdf

[LisaL]

49. Is that why everybody now uses disposable needles?

Because AIDS is so hard to transmit by sharing needles? I guess you wouldn't remember that before HIV, re-usable needles were used. Well, no more-I wonder why.
:eyes:

[Horse with no Name]

50. Yes.

But this wasn't a needle.
It was a lancet. Huge difference.

[LisaL]

52. Have you ever seen re-usable lancets?

[Horse with no Name]

54. Actually yes.

Of course we don't use them patient to patient just because of the remote possibility, but many are reusable.

[LisaL]

44. It's possible she infected other children with HIV, if

she pocked them with that needle after she pocked an HIV positive child with it.
What if she did that to your child? How would you like that?

[Horse with no Name]

48. The possibility is so remote

because again--the lancet needle itself is generally no longer than the ballpoint of a pen.
She would have had to hit the bloodstream (which means a vein) to infect someone. The veins in the fingers aren't easy to hit and would have been pretty impossible to do.
I wouldn't LIKE that she did it to my child--and I certainly would have my child tested, but again, the chances are soooo remote, it wouldn't worry me.

[LisaL]

53. Those kids will still have to go through the testing

and will be put on anti-viral drugs.

[Horse with no Name]

55. Testing yes. Antivirals doubtful.

It is prudent to test the kids per protocol, which is usually at the time of the incident, 3 months, 6 months and then 1 year which covers the windows and the possibilities.
I am sure the parents are weighing the options of antivirals and it will be their choice and it will be offered, but considering the negligible risk vs. the side effects of the medicine, when it is explained to them by informed healthcare workers instead of hysterical lay people--I am certain most will feel comfortable with the testing alone.
I wouldn't let my child receive the antivirals if it were offered to me under the same circumstances.
Not trying to be obtuse about this lizzy. Don't get me wrong, what was done was wrong. It should have never happened and steps need to be taken to correct it. But this child was just a curious child who crossed the line and deserves to be punished--but she is not a dangerous murderer.
I'm just speaking as a healthcare worker who is informed that the transmission possibility is negligible--not non-existent because freak things do happen. But at this point, the risk to benefit of taking antivirals is more dangerous than contracting the virus.
Now, speaking of this child who did have a positive status.
More than likely, it is just a false positive. That would be my guess.
What would have happened if this child fell and hurt herself at school and bled all the place? Nobody would have known and some may be exposed and not be treated or tested. These are the risks in our society these days unfortunately.

[LisaL]

56. They keep on showing up hands holding up a bunch

of prescriptions, when they talk about this story on the news. Looks like anti-virals have already been prescribed to these children.

[Horse with no Name]

57. Well I believe everything I see on TV too

:shrug:

[LisaL]

58. I think it's common sense-she pocked kids with a needle.

One of the kids is apparently HIV positive. HIV can be transmitted through needles. Thus, the kids are going to be prescribed anti-viral drugs that can protect them from infection. If it was my kid, I would want him to be on anti-viral drugs.

[CornField]

37. My husband is an insulin dependent diabetic

He's on a pump now so his used 'sharps' have declined a great deal. Still, he keeps an old, plastic milk jug -- that's where the used stuff goes. Once the jug is full, we take it to a place that handles biohazardous material.

The article doesn't say this, but I'm betting that the mom or one of her diabetes counselors pricked the girl's finger so she would know how it feels. (To let her know it wasn't *that* painful -- what her mom goes through -- etc.) When we did the family counseling with our oldest daughter, she was very interested in the syringes, lancets and everything else for a few weeks.

[Megahurtz]

51. ew - ew - ew!

That is gross!

[maddezmom]

59. update: 19 on H.I.V. Drugs After Needle Prick

By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

Published: May 1, 2005


HILADELPHIA, April 30 (AP) - Nineteen elementary schoolchildren who were pricked with a diabetes-testing needle by another student are taking strong drugs to fight H.I.V. after one of the children tested positive for the virus, officials said.

The authorities have ruled out the possibility that the child who tested positive for the virus, which causes AIDS, could have been infected by the needle prick.

Although the authorities said the odds of the needle transmitting the virus to the other children were extremely low, the drugs would reduce the amount of the virus in their blood or slow the progress of the disease. The drugs do not cure H.I.V. infection or prevent transmission of the virus.

"It may be in there, but it never gets a chance to set up cells in your body," Roger Pomerantz, head of the infectious-disease division at Jefferson Medical College in Philadelphia, said of the drugs' effects on the virus.

~snip~
more: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/01/health/01needle.html