Terrified US soldiers are still killing civilians with impunity, while the

[leftchick]

Terrified US soldiers are still killing civilians with impunity, while the dead go uncounted
By Patrick Cockburn

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=632439

An American patrol roared past us with the soldiers gesturing furiously with their guns for traffic to keep back on an overpass in central Baghdad. A black car with three young men in it did not stop in time and a soldier fired several shots from his machine gun into its engine.

The driver and his friends were not hit, but many Iraqis do not survive casual encounters with US soldiers. It is very easy to be accidentally killed in Iraq. US soldiers treat everybody as a potential suicide bomber. If they are right they have saved their lives and if they are wrong they face no penalty.

"We should end the immunity of US soldiers here," says Dr Mahmoud Othman, a veteran Kurdish politician who argues that the failure to prosecute American soldiers who have killed civilians is one of the reasons why the occupation became so unpopular so fast. He admits, however, that this is extremely unlikely to happen given the US attitude to any sanctions against its own forces.

Every Iraqi has stories of friends or relatives killed by US troops for no adequate reason. Often they do not know if they were shot by regular soldiers or by members of western security companies whose burly employees, usually ex-soldiers, are everywhere in Iraq.

[Bo]

1. Let the Eagle Soar

How they must despise us over there.

[Frederik]

3. The German occupation

in Western Europe (France, Netherlands, Belgium, Denmark, Norway)during WWII was less cruel than this. What a nightmare.

[Charon]

4. Less cruel

Ask the Jews, Homosexuals, underground fighters if the German Occupation of Western Europe was less cruel. If you can find any of the survivors.

[Frederik]

5. Ask the 100,000-200,000 civilians

that have been killed in Iraq so far. The majority of whom were women and children. Some by napalm, and possibly by chemical weapons.

[isthisamerica]

58. divide that number by AT LEAST 4

Whoa,,,,,


You need to divide that number by 4 at best

[Frederik]

68. Don't think so

[Save The World]

76. Don't you mean at worst?

n/t

[NickB79]

83. Maybe by 2, no more than that

The Lancet published a peer-reviewed journal article estimating 100,000 Iraqi dead so far as of last year. I don't recall if that included the Fallujah assault, however.

100,000 in 1.5 yrs is a pretty bad track record for a country "bringing democracy and freedom" to the Iraqi people.

[primavera]

86. Not according to MIT

Didn't you hear about the study that was undertaken by MIT statisticians last year on the subject? They found that, even using the most conservative moethodologies possible, their estimates of Iraqi civilian deaths as the result of the US occupation exceeded 100,000. That was six months ago and it was a conservative estimate then. God only knows where the figure is today.

[NNN0LHI]

6. Yep. You are right. We are better than the Germans

Oddly I don't get too much consolation from saying that though.

Don

[shadowknows69]

26. isn't that kind of like saying

it's ok. we're only a minor demon of hell not lucifer himself.

[d.l.Green]

105. The operation was a huge success but the patient died... n/t

[The_Casual_Observer]

95. Give them time. It's only been 2+ years.

They have already shown the willingness to do this in Falluja and they have plenty of "contractors" who aren't controlled by anyone.
Just give them time.

[MnFats]

46. no, no, no.

We have not shot every resident of a single town and razed and burned the town to ashes so that no trace remained.
We have not built factories that are advanced killing machines.

No. The occupation is stupendously bad, but do NOT compare it with Nazi occupation. Ask anyone who was there, if they were fortunate enough to live through it.

[Frederik]

69. My grandfather

for instance, lived through the Nazi occupation of Denmark. I know many who lived through the occupation in several Western European countries, and from what they tell me, there was, most of the time, a sense of normality that I think is completely lacking in Iraq. People had jobs, water, electricity, they didn't get killed at roadblocks with the frequency this seems to happen in Iraq, though it did happen of course. Society was functioning.

The holocaust, of course, is an entirely different matter, but I'm talking about ordinary life for the majority. And I think the majority in Iraq suffers more than the majority in Western Europe two years into WWII (1942). Eastern Europe was a whole other situation, a much more gruesome occupation, I was talking about Western Europe.

[gordianot]

55. That is not correct. You might want to study the SS.

War is nasty no matter who is involved, however no one in the twentieth century approached the German SS. Stalin comes close but that was genocide of his own people.

I agree this war is a nightmare. All war is cruel. No one has the absolute moral high ground but revisionism carries its own dangers. American occupation of Iraq does not begin to compare with the second world war.

[Frederik]

72. See my answer above

I think, for the majority of people in Western Europe (not Eastern Europe, and excluding the targetted minorities), they didn't suffer like the Iraqis do from the current occupation two years into the war(around 1942). That was my point.

As for the SS and the Gestapo, people "disappear" in Iraq too, children are taken from their parents and incarcerated in Abu Ghraib, where they are raped and abused. Sisters of suspected insurgents are taken to Abu Ghraib as hostages. People are tortured to death and then the G.I.s are photographed with them smiling and giving a thumbs-up. In one case a boy was taken from a roadblock and thrown in the river just for fun. The soldiers laughed as he drowned. There may be a difference, but it isn't very big.

[Save The World]

77. The historical ignorance displayed by this post

is simply bind boggling.

[Dhalgren]

89. The difference between the Nazi occupations in Europe

and the US occupation of Iraq is one of degrees, not of kind. You may point out a city that the Nazis razed, but then there is Fallujah. You may talk of the Nazis rounding up thousands of civilians and sending them off to concentration camps, but then we have rounded up thousands of innocent Iraqis into prisons with no hope of release. You can point to how the Nazis murdered innocent people for no good reason, but then the US has and continues to kill innocent people at "checkpoints" on a daily basis. The US has killed or wounded hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis just as the Nazis did to civilian populations in WWII. The US may not yet be acting on the same "scale" as the Nazi were, but are doing essentially the same type of "work".

[Name removed]

94. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Dhalgren]

97. That's true.

On the level of the individual, I'm sure an inmate at Abu Graib (sp) would think he was just as unfortunate as a French Jew in a Nazi concentration camp - wouldn't you? Are the Iraqis that the US has beaten to death in prison camps not as badly treated as the Jews in Nazi camps? You want to make it better, because we're Americans. That isn't true. When one nation or group is slaughtering another, it really isn't too big of a consideration to the victims what the killers' politics are.

[Save The World]

102. So, then

Do you believe that Hitler and FDR were morally comparable?

[Dhalgren]

103. Of course. Any two humans are "morally comparable".

But we were discussing the two different, aggressive, unprovoked occupations - the Nazis in WWII Europe and the US currently in Iraq. Not Hitler and FDR.

[Djinn]

2. can't understand why those

Eyerakis don't understand that we're there to HELP

[cprompt]

7. i gotta disagree here

I have to go the other way on this one, just a few days ago my brother currently in iraq sent this in one of his emails

"We have had numerous convoys hit IED’s within the last several days which have caused some severe injuries, such as blindness and paralysis. We have been attacked recently with mortar fire, which is similar to what you see in the movies. The major difference is that in the movies you don’t get the appreciation of the blast itself. The sound of an explosion is deafening and the blast will shake buildings and the ground all around you. Our guys are on edge because of all of this activity, which makes it harder to make clear decisions in a short period of time, such as when a car is heading towards your convoy. You are not sure if it is heading towards you to blow up you and your friends or they just don’t see you waving your hands, too late it’s close enough now that you are within blast range of a bomb, you have to immobilize the vehicle. In the last several days we have had two such instances where we fired warning shots to deter the vehicles from entering the convoy, in both instances, by all appearances after the initial investigation we had killed three innocent Iraqi’s. Why they chose to rush into our convoy’s who knows? Why they didn’t stop when our guys waved their hands, who knows? Whatever the reasons, they are dead and there are a couple of young American’s now trying to live with what they did. "

imagine you are an 18-25 year old, sitting there thousands of miles from everything you know, with a car coming at you, you don't know it's intentions but they won't stop and this is a common method used to attack you. are you going to take the chance of not trying to stop the vehicle and hope for the best or protect your own life? you know damn well you can't drive you car onto a military base here and ignore everyone trying to stop you without being fired upon, no difference. i refuse to blame soldier's for defending themselves in situations like this. now in instances where a soldier abused some regulation, fine, if a car heading to my convoy doesn't stop, sorry.

[leetrisck]

8. Thank you for posting that

and thanks to all for service to our Country.

[mhr]

12. So In Your Mind It Is Honorable To Kill Innocents Just Because

They are Americans fighting in Bush's War.

I think your thought processes are a little off.

You might want to reevaluate your values here.

[cprompt]

21. no my values are fine however

its not the soldiers fault they are in the position they are in, but do i feel a soldier should be thrown in an iraqi jail for life or a military prison for reacting in such a situation, absolutely not. if this is what you are disagreeing with then i am not the one with a "values" issue.

[w4rma]

44. Bingo. The GOP leadership put our soldiers in this untenable situation.

They are the folks who should be punished (at the polls, please). However, you do see that *something* has to be done about the cold blooded killing of a high percentage of non-soldiers who find themselves near American soldiers in Iraq. Correct?

I'd like to know what you feel should be done about this problem. Unless this problem is fixed, our military ought to just give up now and come home because this war won't be "won" unless this problem is fixed. Officially, the war is over hearts and minds, not territory.

[cprompt]

48. wow

are you serious? you think someone placed in a "kill or be killed" scenario is cold blooded. every morning i read of another car bomb in iraq, do i think they need to be there no, is it their fault they are in the position they are in no, do they have the right to open fire if someone is driving towards them and not stopping after being warned you bet your ass. there is nothing cold blooded about that.

[w4rma]

53. You've got to be cold blooded to survive in that situation. (nt)

[Andromeda]

64. No, you have to be scared.

.

[w4rma]

75. Scared gets you killed. Fear gets you killed.

To survive in that environment you have to move to a mentality where nothing matters except your (and your comrades') own survival.

Why do you think so many folks who are put in this situation come how with post-traumatic stress disorder (PSTD)? It's not because they were in a fearful situation. It's because they had to do things in that situation that folks, who aren't there, would consider very very unethical and the human mind does not like cognitive dissonance at all so it works through their dreams and memories to try to work through the cognitive dissonance.

[cprompt]

71. you have to be kidding?

tell me you are playing devil's advocate, you can't honestly believe someone defending themselves in a situation like this is cold-blooded? a soldier (who doesnt need to be there ok we all agree there but lets deal with the fact they are) has a few seconds to make a judgement on his/her survival and you pick them apart as being cold blooded? lookup "fight or flight response" while your at it.

[w4rma]

74. I am telling you that the situation that these folks have been placed in

*requires* these folks to shoot innocent civilians. They have to be on edge, all the time, and wary of suicide attacks at every time.

You can't tell me it doesn't require some degree of cold bloodedness to shoot whole families in their cars at roadblocks because they didn't follow the protocol that the officers, who often aren't there, expected these Iraqis to follow. You either shoot that family, unhesitantly, or you hesitate when the next car has a suicide bomber in it.

Let one single suicide bomber get to the roadblock and the soldiers there are bloody body parts.

[primavera]

88. Excuse me, but aren't these people supposed to be trained professionals?

You make it sound like the only recourse these soldiers have is to shoot up anything that moves before it shoots them. Aren't these guys supposed to be trained in how to conduct operations in areas with civilian populations? I mean, sure, it would be nice if every battle could be fought in the middle of an abandoned desert with troops from both sides wearing uniforms to identify themselves clearly, but that plainly isn't the real world we live in, nor has it been for decades. Surely the military must provide soldiers with some sort of training on how to discriminate between targets and how to defuse situations using nonlethal force when circumstances require it.

The argument that soldiers have the right to defend themselves is a weak one, as in many of these incidents, the soldiers only believe that they are defending themselves, when in fact there is no bona fide threat. Even as I cannot go into a crowded shopping mall with an Uzi, start blasting, and then claim that I was lawfully entitled to do so because I perceived that I was about to be attacked, neither can soldiers take refuge behind some blanket self-defense immunity. The threat must be bona fide, or at the very least, must reasonably appear to be bona fide. There is no license to simply shoot anything that moves and claim self defense, whether you are a soldier in a war theater or not.

I think this is a policy issue: the staggeringly high level of civilian deaths suggests that we are not providing adequate guidance to our troops on how to respond to real or imagined threats - plainly the problem has gone beyond isolated individual episodes and attained the proportions of a systemic problem. But the solution to that problem is not giving nervous soldiers carte blanche to murder civilians with impunity.

[malmapus]

99. Unless things have changed our military isn't geared for occupation

When I was trained, we were still under the doctrine of fighting the WARSAW pact, and this was like a year after the collaspe of the USSR.

The military at times is slow to change, I have heard recently that the Army changed its Basic Training around to include how to handle this new kind of conflict in dealing with IEDs and what not.

[clem_c_rock]

54. Let's not forget all the wonderfull DEMS who put them there too

You know, the ones who all voted for this war.

The one's who are now saying they were duped by the intelligence reports
when a person w/ a bit of suspician and a small IQ could have know the intelligence reports were lies simply by investigating the history of the PNAC and their yearnings for the control of Iraq for the last 10 years (let me repeat "Control of Iraq - nothing about democracy folks ).

[w4rma]

78. Republicans pushed for this. Many Democrats opposed this. Many

Democrats believed the Republicans on this and a very few Democrats knew what the Republicans were doing and supported them on it.

Go after the individual Democrats, such as Lieberman and the DLC leadership, who knew what the Republicans were doing and supported them on it. Don't keep trying to muddy the waters between the parties as the neo-cons want you to do.

[driver8]

30. It is very easy to pass judgement when you are not over there...

Put yourself in the soldiers' shoes...it is almost a situation of "kill or be killed." Of course it isn't right to kill innocent civilians, but until you are put in the situation that they are in, it is unfair for you to pass judgement on the soldiers.

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cprompt]

49. common sense

prevails, thank you driver8.

[Violet_Crumble]

51. Why? It doesn't stop folk from passing judgement on Iraqis...

They apparently deserve what they get when they don't stop when a US troop claims they've warned them. They deserve it when bombs were dropped on them. They deserve it when they try to resist the occupation. I've seen all those sentiments posted in the past, so I take it you'd strongly agree that those people need to put themselves in the shoes of Iraqis and not pass judgement? Or does that only apply for some bizarre reason to US troops?

Violet...

[driver8]

56. They certainly don't deserve what they get...no one deserves that

But c'mon...let's look at this realistically. If you are a soldier in Iraq, and you know that car bombs have killed a lot of US soldiers and you see a car speeding towards you that will not stop...what do you do? Do you just assume that it is not a suicide bomber "this time" and pray for the best? Or do you take a few shots at the car to try and stop it?
If that was your son or husband making that decision, what would you have him do?

No one deserves to die in this fucked up war, no one! I don't care if it is an Iraqi or an American. However, the situation over there is one that means the US soldiers are being killed daily by car bombs. What choice do they have?

I never said that an Iraqi citizen "deserves" anything...those are your words. Like I said, it is easy to criticize American troops when you are sitting in the comfort of your home. What I am asking is that you don't condemn our troops for wanting to live unless you have been faced with the reality that they are faced with.

[saigon68]

67. Wait till these "SWEET HEARTS" come back and join the police

They are rustics mostly who being seduced into the military now LOVE what they are doing.

[leftchick]

81. an Iraqi stop sign would help

A seargent back from Iraq was talking about the chaos at checkpoints and the deaths of so many were a lot of times due to the lack of communication. His unit decided to use Iraqi stop signs and he said they worked out very well. Now why hasn't some smart ass General thought of this long ago? Because they don't give a shit about Iraqi body counts.

[d.l.Green]

106. It's one thing to compare the lives of US soldiers and Iraqi's if they

were on equal terms, with access to similar arms(to defend themselves), communication training, technology, armor, etc. But this is a grossly unbalanced situation, and not by the Iraqi's choice. However it is a CHOICE for our soldiers to be there. They are not being FORCED into this situation- they VOLUNTEERED. The Iraqi's not only didn't volunteer or even cause the reasons they were supposedly attacked for, but they are being FORCED to deal with something they were not PREPARED for. There can be no excuse from ANYONE that innocent people are being killed- the buck stops RIGHT HERE with each individual. This is NOT a "war"- it's still an out and out OCCUPATION! (Maybe I missed something along the way?- correct me if I'm wrong.):banghead:

[SweetLeftFoot]

92. Ahem

These soldiers ALWAYS had a choice. They could desert. They could go conscientious objector.

The Nuremberg Defence didn't hold then and it doesn't hold now.

[okieinpain]

47. no it's not honorable, and the post didn't claim that the soldiers

are happy with the situation. they are just trying to survive over there, and what scares me is how many around here are ready to hang them for that.

[BeHereNow]

38. Nice sentiment, but totally wrong

the fact is, they are not in service to our country/
They are in service to the global elite multi national
corporate american led hegemonic empire.
And THAT is what every American in this country
should be outraged by.
But they do not know that they are
sending our young men and women off to die,
be maimed and traumatized for the corporations
who don't give a crap about Americans, Iraqis or anyone else
for that matter..
The ignorant and arrogant people who support
this illegal occupation and others around the world
actually still believe that our military is somehow
being used to protect "American interests..." uh-huh.
BHN

[Andromeda]

62. Oh, please!

.

[Name removed]

66. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BeHereNow]

84. Hey Molly...first clue:

"Oh please" and nothing else.
What DOES that tell you?

BHN

[leftchick]

9. The author of the article makes that point...

It is right in the headline "terrified soldiers". They are in a lose lose situation and so are the Iraqis with the US there. It is way past time to bring them home.

[mhr]

10. And This Is Why Bush's War Was Wrong, Wrong, Wrong!

eom

[Toots]

11. Why are they there killing people?

How does our killing Iraqis help America or these soldiers you write about. Do you no longer have horrible nightmares about the Iraqis rampaging through America killing little babies and women. I know that was always my main concern, so better we are there killing them than them over here killing Americans like I know they were just on the verge of doing..:crazy: Support the Troops Get them Home......

[Stanchetalarooni]

14. Grunts = Automatons

I was just following orders.
I was afraid.
I was just doing my job.
.................
Lifetime of nightmares, sleeping with weapons,goin' postal, hypervigilance, etoh/drug abuse, suicidal ideation, 1000 yard stare to follow.

[saigon68]

80. Sufferers of PTSD

Waiting to get up "IN THE TOWER" and take out a few "Peace-niks".

Coming to a city near you. (SOON)

[Selteri]

16. People get very trigger happy when they are afraid.

It isn't nice, it's a fact, that doesn't give them an excuse to be killing civilians, it gives us a good reason for why we shouldn't even be there!

If our military isa afraid and can't control it's ranks then there is no reason they should be there period.

[Red State Rebel]

17. I have family there too - thanks for your post

[antonialee839]

29. My son is there

he went deaf in one ear in Iraq a few weeks ago when his Stryker hit
an IAD. It was the first time in my life I was thankful that one of my children had been injured if you know what I mean.

George Bush had no business sending or keeping our loved ones over there and I know that someday when the Grim Reaper takes him, there's a special place in hell reserved for him and the rest of his ilk.

[BeHereNow]

39. Is he home now?

If so then you must be so happy.
My nephew and his wife are there and
I understand what you mean about
being thankful that your son was injured.
Especially if it took him out of further and
potentially far worse.
And yes, the people responsible for all this
pain and suffering are going to hell.
I would volunteer to escort them there myself
if it meant assuring that they got there.

BHN

[leftchick]

40. Please tell me he is on his way home!

:hug:

[antonialee839]

59. I wish

They don't send you home for a "minor" injury. He's there till the end of October, and then they can't guarantee he won't do an extended tour.

[leftchick]

65. That is what I was afraid to hear

My prayers and best wishes are with you both that he comes home safe.

peace,
lc

[Andromeda]

63. Bush will get what he deserves...

hope your son is returning home soon to you and your family.

[gratuitous]

18. Compelling narrative

Now imagine you're living at home, quietly and peaceably. Far, far off, at the edge of hearing, you hear an airplane engine. It grows louder and louder, fractionally. Suddenly bombs are raining down all over your neighborhood. Homes of your friends and relatives are blown to Kingdom Come by explosions.

In the aftermath, you never even heard the engines of the planes overhead. They'd dropped their bombs from miles in the air and were long gone by the time anyone on the ground was even aware that they were being targeted. While you're sifting through the rubble, trying to separate the dead from the survivors and figuring out who can be helped and who can't, the persons who did this to you are already back at their base, toasting another mission accomplished against a people who can't get away and can't fight back.

Then a couple of weeks later, the foreign ground troops come through the area, riding in their tanks and humvees, bristling with armaments.

[G_j]

19. as you point out, they are there as 'targets'

what is wrong with this picture?
As long as they occupy Iraq they will be targets.
And the civil war that is now a distinct possibility? (some would say Iraq is already embroiled in civil war)
Do we really think those young terrified soldiers can contain the demons that were unleashed when the US plunged the country into chaos and anarchy by destroying the infrastructure, killing civilians, allowing all out looting, humiliating and torturing prisoners etc. etc. Unfortunately Bush has created a scenario that seems to have no solutions. And as the violence, terror and fear engulfs the country we expect the troops to 'solve' the problem.
It ain't gonna work.

[Zorra]

24. Bush is a monster that placed our military in a horrible situation.

He is a war criminal and needs to be put on trial in front of the world, and imprisoned for the terrible crimes he has committed, against our country, against the people of Iraq, and against the people of the nations that he lied to as he coerced them into joining the "coalition of the damned".

This war is unjustifiable by any reasonable ethical and moral standards. Foreign soldiers have no right to be in Iraq.

They are foreign invaders in a formerly sovereign country and have no legitimate reason to be there.

Nor do they have the right to kill Iraqi citizens with impunity, citizens traveling in their own country, no matter how frightened they are.

If soldiers know that they are too frightened to make proper judgements about who to attack, it is their responsibility to report their condition to their superior officer so they can be relieved of duty.

That said, I really feel sorry for our troops and wish they would all just walk away right now and come home. I wish that somehow we the people could impeach Bush and his evil PNAC administration tomorrow and bring our soldiers home to their families so that they could do the job that they signed on to do - to defend our country.

Because they are not, in any way, shape or form, in Iraq for the purpose of defending America, although some of them may mistakenly believe that they are. And that is really sad.

They are only in Iraq to help the Bush family and other war profiteers get richer and/or more powerful on corporate profits from oil, armaments, and war reconstruction proceeds.

[agincourt]

50. Best synopsis,

I've heard so far.

[driver8]

57. Zorra, that is an excellent post!!

You put into words my feelings exactly!!

Wouldn't it be great if our soldiers could walk away from the nightmare they are living in? A nightmare caused by our Prez?

Bush and co. are war criminals...nothing more.

[SammyWinstonJack]

79. One would think that by now, the troops would get that.

"They are only in Iraq to help the Bush family and other war profiteers get richer and/or more powerful on corporate profits from oil,armaments, and war reconstruction proceeds."



It should be crystal clear to the troops at this point that they are being used, abused and possibly killed by this non-elected murderous bunch of war profiteers. And the troops hated President Clinton..........:crazy:

[MisterP]

28. car bombs are used against city crowds, IEDs in the country

[leftchick]

87. VBEDs are used on convoys daily

Vehicle Born Explosive Devices. A new acronym from the Pentagon. It sounds much less harmful than a car bomb doesn't it?

[MisterP]

98. I think they'd showcase every one in the media, so they'd have an excuse

out and ready for the incessant gunnings-down (or is it gunning-downs?)--after all, we all know that the military controls the news at both ends under this new regime

[mike_c]

33. they invaded another country and they're occupying it against...

...its citizens' wishes. The citizens fight back? The populace is hostile? Imagine that. His email shows virtually no remorse for the deaths of the innocent Iraqis he describes. Instead, he tries to pass off responsibility onto the victims, then ultimately dismisses their deaths as not very important.

Your brother is on the wrong side of this one, IMO. I hope he gets out alive, but mainly I just hope he gets out.

[jbnow]

34. That's the problem

These are largely scared kids (though big kids).
They are paranoid for a reason. Anyone could be their enemy.

For Iraqi civilians paranoia is justified too. Any soldier could take you away or kill you and crime from your own people is more rampant then ever before in your life.

No one is a winner.

[Andromeda]

60. Thank you for your input.

there is nothing about this war that makes any sense, however, soldiers do need to defend themselves and I don't believe the vast majority of them kill civilians intentionally. They kill when they feel threatened and sometimes it's a mistaken threat and sometimes not.

It's real easy to throw opinions around when you're here in the U.S. but another to actually be there in the middle of chaos just trying to stay alive.

[Massachusetts]

70. In a Nutshell! excellent point!

"imagine you are an 18-25 year old, sitting there thousands of miles from everything you know",

[SweetLeftFoot]

91. Jesus

So, it's OK to go to someone else's country to steal their resources and then shoot them dead like dogs on the street because they want to drive on their own roads and not defer to their occupiers like fucking mediavel serfs when the seigneur rides past?

No offence mate, but your brother sounds like an arsehole.

Vive la resistance!

[confludemocrat]

93. You're in some pickle here

Got a brother there. Shouldn't be there, no justification for being there, so no justification for "lighting them up" blasting away at them, its' their country; your brother is part of an illegal invasion. Sorry for you and him, but that's what they call indefensible situation. No justification will make it right.

People here can try to minimize the suffering and death caused by this deplorable action based on what? lies, lies and still more lies. Rationalize all you think you need to, but it won't cut it.

[pokercat999]

96. Heroes all.....if they lay down their weapons and come home.

Murderers all.....if they stay and continue to kill.

Who will be the first hero, I'll defend him with MY life if necessary.

All it will take is one hero that we stand behind and do not let our gov't? punish him/her.

[Ringwind]

13. 9/11 and October Surprise scandal

Google and type in "The FBI uses polygraphs to eliminate suspects"

[FormerOstrich]

31. What is this suppose to reveal....

all I see is where this message has been spammed on a bunch of boards. Can you explain???????

[yodermon]

52. Nah: instead I googled "David Howard, Joplin Missouri" and got this:

http://mediafilter.org/guest/Pages/May.2.2000.21.23.24

I was punched, stomped, kicked and struck with rifle butts, by members of the Missouri State Highway Patrol; which left me physically scarred for life. After the beating, I was taken to the Pulaski County Hospital for treatment. I submitted to a polygraph test ( prior to the hearing ) and passed successfully, confirming my charges and proving the trooper's charges to be false. I was still sent to prison for 3 years on false charges. Please contact the FBI and ask them to administer polygraph tests to the troopers involved with this case. Thank you for your assistance in this matter. Sincerely, David Howard-2331 South Duquesne-Joplin,Missouri PS: I was originally sentenced to serve 27 years and I was released after having served 3 years by a Writ of Habeas Corpus.

So, what *were* the charges?

[xchrom]

15. small, little, almost unnoticed my lai's

all over the place.

it's eerie -- there's no way our soldiers could keep from killing innocents -- they know next to nothing about the world they are in -- they were brainwashed in the weeks leading up to the war because of 9-11 -- bush1 had created ambivalence if not hostility in the general population -- they are not REALLY welcome and they know it -- it just goes on.

we could stay there forever and it would remain the same.

[BeFree]

25. As the Secretary of State might say:

"We never imagined they'd use automobiles as car bombs" end quote.

The lack of training and forethought before the invasion, and since, has placed our troops in between a rock and a hard place. Any further allowance of guilt replacement is unwarranted. Every damn one of the soldiers and their leaders - all the way to the top - is guilty of murder. Thousands of dead Iraqis are testament to the crime.

[TomClash]

20. It's all part of the "CULTURE OF LIFE" eom

[Merlin]

22. In Nam, undisciplined, wild indiscriminate fire followed any sniper shot.

This is an excellent article which manages to make so many points I've overlooked as I've ranted about this over the years.

Fact is, our military is derelict and incompetent at training GIs about how to respond to sniper fire. There is absolutely no training for this whatsoever.

So troops are left to feel their way. Obviously these mostly young kids react with unbridled terror, ready to strike out in all directions at anything that moves, unleashing a sheath of metal in all directions that would once have been enough to conquer Rome.

The firing will go on for several minutes. Finally some of the more mature folks will begin hollering "Cease fire! Cease fire!" The episode will be over.

The enemy is virtually NEVER harmed as a result of these outbursts. But countless civilians are killed and wounded. Indeed, it was a favorite tactic of Viet Cong, when dealing with a recalcitrant village, to lure US troops into the area, then fire on them from the village. Our maniacal response would guarantee the civilians would turn against us. We played right into their hands.

Usually nobody really knows where the shots came from. More importantly, they have absolutely no idea what or who may have been hit in their frenzied response.

I was an artillery officer attached to armored cav units. I could not order troops not directly under me not to respond chaotically. All I could do was try to get them to stop when the inevitable happened.

What's so stupid about war movies is they usually show visible enemy soldiers firing at us. But that NEVER happens. The enemy is always hidden. You are fired at but it is extremely difficult to know the source.

Having written about this many times, it is incredibly galling that nothing ever changes about this. But this article gives me a new idea.

What is needed is a political pressure group. Perhaps:
American Veterans For Disciplined GI Firepower

This group, non-partisan and focused on the counter-productivity and inhumanity of indiscriminate firing sprees in response to sniper attacks might have a prayer of bringing this matter to the attention of the US public, and at long last penetrating the consciousness of some of our military policy makers.

How many innocent civilian deaths are the direct result of these foolish, useless outbursts? How many families are forever infuriated at us because of it. More important to Americans, How many GIs die as a direct result of revenge attacks resulting from this preventable, useless compulsion?

[Andromeda]

61. Good post, Merlin...

.

[ninkasi]

23. We need to leave Iraq now.

We need to leave now. Today would be a good day to start. Every day we are there only makes things worse. We will never recover from the shame of America unjustly invading a smaller, weaker nation which was no threat to us, and destroying it.

This is Bush's war, brought about by greed and corruption. There are no WMD. We are not liberating Iraqis from anything but their lives and homes. One day, Bush will join the ranks of other leaders who brought destruction to millions...Hitler, Stalin, and Bush.

[rodeodance]

37. yes, this war has put our troops into this postion-of being terrified at

every turn. unless they stay holed up --the next bomb could be them-or a massive head injury, or a leg blown off. I do not blame them. they are terrified --and they need to get OUT.

[Charon]

85. Join the ranks

Dont forget President Lyndon Johnson belongs on this list.

[mmonk]

27. When you are in a different place

and where you don't know where or when the nest hit on your unit or another is, this is usually the scenario because you are going on survival mode. That's why I think the sooner we leave, the better even if we do have new military bases there.

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Disturbed]

36. "A scenario that seems to have no solutions."

There is a solution. Bring the U.S. Troops back to Amerika.

Of course that will never happen. The Repubs and Dems will fund this Iraqi agenda for amny years to come.

[daleo]

41. It sounds like the U.S. soldiers' only real mission is just staying alive.

Once that happens, it shows that there really isn't any worthwhile cause behind the war.

[w4rma]

45. They've been lied to about the real purpose of this occupation and most of

them *know* that. But they follow orders and do as our society asks of them. They are being used and most of them know that.

Their "mission" is to survive.

[Massachusetts]

73. deja vu all over again..

[leftchick]

82. reminds me of another quagmire...

that mercifully ended 30 years ago. :(

[Hissyspit]

42. kick

[bemildred]

43. I don't know about "with impunity"

they are dying too, and being injured badly,
but certainly without any fear of legal process for "mistakes".
But that's just an indicator of the general lack of order in Iraq,
of the fact that all the "light at the end of the tunnel" bullshit is
bullshit. The problem is that the US ruling elites, having no idea
how to run the USA, also have no idea how to run Iraq. Hence both
countries are a mess, but Iraq is a more violent mess because we
invaded it.

[Martin Eden]

90. A Stupid War To Die In

Charley Reese wrote a pretty good perspective on the situation American troops have been thrust into, prompted by the wounding of Italian journalist Giulana Sgrena and killing of her rescuer, Nicola Calipari, at an American checkpoint:

What happened is easy to explain. American soldiers are scared. They are in a bad place. Death is all around them and wears a thousand disguises. They don't know if a car contains a car bomb or innocent people. Quite sensibly, they have adopted the practice of "when in doubt, shoot." In a situation where somebody will end up dead and somebody will end up sorry, it is better to be the one who is sorry. Most people, though not all, can get over being sorry. Nobody can get over being dead.

Many innocent people have been killed at American checkpoints, and some American soldiers at checkpoints have been killed by people who were not innocent. It is the nature of guerrilla warfare. The enemy doesn't wear a uniform. Therefore, everyone is a suspect.

No one can blame an American soldier for wanting to come home in one piece. No one can blame him for doing whatever he, on the spot, thinks is necessary for his own survival. You can blame politicians for putting him in the situation, but once there, he has no choice but to concentrate on survival and to kill anybody who appears to be a threat.

This is far too stupid a war to get killed in if you can avoid it. Nearly all wars are stupid, but this one is close to the top. It was sold to the American people on false premises, and when the false premises were exposed, the slicksters didn't bat an eye and just changed the script. We went to war to spread democracy, not to disarm Saddam Hussein, they said. It is all for the benefit of the Iraqi people, excluding, of course, those who are killed, maimed or impoverished in the process. A majority of Americans bought it.

Read More:
http://www.antiwar.com/reese/?articleid=5161

[Mugweed]

100. That's what happens

when you send a bunch of weekend warriors (1 weekend a month, 2 weeks a year...whatever the deal was supposed to be) to play REAL soldier.

[Walt Starr]

101. Put the blame with the REAL criminals

Bush
Cheney
Powell
Rice
Rumsfield
Wolfowitz
Brehmer
et al

[lonestarnot]

104. This is appauling...but consider who volunteers to enlist these days.

[MontageOfFreedom]

107. This is truly disgusting.....Why oh why is the world considered flat.

And top is down, and bottom is up and.....

Why is IRAQ considered freedomized, now that it has almost been turned into a theocracy.

[Moderator]

108. locking

Discussion has ceased to be productive.