NYT: Pentagon Considers Changing the Legal Definition of Sodomy

[kskiska]

WASHINGTON, April 20 - The office of the general counsel at the Pentagon has proposed decriminalizing consensual sodomy among adults, a change to its 55-year-old policy on sodomy that would bring the military legal code more in line with laws that govern civilians, according to a memorandum sent to Congress.

Under Article 125 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice, it is a crime to engage in "unnatural carnal copulation with another person of the same or opposite sex," even with mutual consent.

The changes proposed by the Pentagon's lawyers would narrow the definition to prohibit acts of sodomy with a person under age 16 or acts "committed by force." Their memorandum says this would "conform more closely to other federal laws and regulations."

Recent rulings by the Supreme Court and the United States Court of Criminal Appeals for the Armed Forces have raised questions about the constitutionality of the military's ban on consensual sodomy.

more…
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/21/politics/21sodomy.html?oref=login

[Erika]

1. Ah, why is this the Pentagon's business? eom

[AnneD]

22. two words

Gannon/Guckert

[mike_c]

2. how will this affect the use...

...of chemical light sticks and broom handles in the American military's valiant struggle against freedom hating evil-doers?

[rodeodance]

23. sodomy by force is prohibited

..The changes proposed by the Pentagon's lawyers would narrow the definition to prohibit acts of sodomy with a person under age 16 or acts "committed by force."

[mike_c]

42. my question was rhetorical, and meant with a certain cynicism....

eom

[saltpoint]

3. I would like to see a transcript of those first few meetings.

"Let's put the hunt for Osama bin Laden on hold while we re-write this legal definition of blowjobs."

[WhiteTara]

4. well, they do have their priorities!

politics first and then to skim money off the top for their
best friends.  Oh and then they need to take some trips to
some cool places and THEN they'll hunt for Osama bin Laden (of
course he is only a symbol so it will take another hundred
years or so to find him)

[saltpoint]

6. Yes. The ol' priorities thing.

Hi, BareNakedLiberal. How do you get courier (?) font? It looks GREAT in these posts.

[Dogmudgeon]

5. This is a good idea

Right now, if an officer and an enlisted person start dating, it meets the UCMJ's definition of sodomy -- that's how loose the definition is.

I say, let 'em take a break from goosing A-rabbs at Abu Ghraib and extract this infected splinter from the loins of the UCMJ.

--p!

[Zynx]

8. Actually, that's a whole other offense

Has nothing to do with unnatural sexual acts.

[uppityperson]

7. WTF is "unnatural carnal copulation" (even w/mutual consent)?

"Unnatural" means what? And who decides what's "unnatural"?

[Hekate]

12. "Unnatural" goes right back to the Puritans and their kin

Such people were horrified at the notion of sex any way other than the missionary position -- couple horizontal, man on top, woman underneath. We are their heirs, like it or not, and laws put in place by Puritan colonists are still sprinkled throughout our states.

Military types are very slow to change their ways, but if they must, they will. I think it was FDR who desegregated the US military, citing national emergency, and those who swore it would never ever work were proven wrong. Top-down, hierarchical structure; they take orders.

It could have happened that way with gays, but it didn't, and that leads to another way the military can change: the generals see the reality of an understaffed and overworked armed forces, and they also see the reality of having lost some 10,000 personnel in the past 10 or 12 years due to "don't ask, don't tell" -- a significant chunk of whom were skilled in languages we really need to have access to.

The generals (as a group; I wouldn't vouch for Crusader Boykin) also recognize that society is changing, becoming more accepting of gays, and that their troops come from that society.

The timing is right. They're working up to it. Now if they can only get Bush on board with the program despite being so beholden to his religious base.

Hekate
(who doesn't really want to see ANYbody go into the military just now)

[DulceDecorum]

9. The Jeff Gannon loophole.

Karl says its OK.

[Up2Late]

10. It looks to me like the Pentagon's looking to recall all the convicts...

and people they kicked out, do to the "don't ask, don't tell" law.

Hey,:shrug: Sodomy, shmadomy, here's your ticket to Iraq.:patriot:

[Richard Steele]

13. Your'e so cynical that you may just be CORRECT!

Could they do that? If they decide to retroactively REVERSE all those DDs,
could they then claim that the 'reserve' portion of those contracts is valid again, and ENFORCE compulsory service?

[Up2Late]

14. I bet they'll try, hell, they are already "stop lossing" guys close to 50

If a law can be re-written, I bet they'll try. :evilfrown:

[MADem]

17. See my post below

But keep in mind, they don't HAVE to retroactively reverse the OTH or DD's, but they could--I think that is unlikely.

They generally will not revisit, but if they draft, this closes a loophole.

[Lexingtonian]

11. Twelve years after all the Chicken Little whining

that 'Don't ask/don't tell/don't pursue' ended in, now they tell (or rather, try not to tell) us it was all just bullshit.

Are there really any words to say to the idiots responsible for it all?

[MADem]

15. Step One in obviating DADT....

I swear, I am not joking.

One of the things that I have noticed is that "Gen Y" (correct term? forgive me if I misspeak, I am old, after all--I mean, senior teens and young twenties) do not have the "gay" hangup that older Americans cart around like a useless rock that they do not want, do not need, but simply cannot throw away. I get the sense that many believe experimentation is fine, not an issue--where you stand, sexually speaking, is sort of where you happen to be sitting at the moment, and it will all be sorted out eventually. But in the meantime, don't worry, be happy.

During Vietnam, anyone who tried to get out of the military using the excuse of homosexual orientation was often challenged to perform a sexual act in front of the person making the challenge. Most kids would back down at that point and just march off to war. I swear, the kids today would say, hand me a condom fucker, and let's get it on! I'm Jeff Gannon, beeeeyatch! Bend over, here it comes again! (We called that BOHICA in the service, anytime we got the royal shaft on an assignment or duty, btw).

If you unload sodomy from the UCMJ, that is step one to eliminating Don't Ask, Don't Tell. And it takes yet one more "excuse" away from antiwar types, who do not have a problem with being 'identified' as homosexual. The stigma is gone, so they now have to find a way to eliminate orientation as a disqualifier.

This makes me feel that a draft is closing in, unless a miracle happens in Iraq, and the insurgents quit, and the oil starts flowing (which ain't happening right now). Problem is, if that indeed happens, it will embolden the chimp, and we still have reason to be afraid.

Nothing happens without a reason, kids! This change in the rules is happening FOR A REASON.

And that's my "Inside the Ring" assessment of why they are changing this rule.

[leftchick]

21. Thank you for your "Inside the Ring" assessment MADem

I am way outside of the ring and I can see what the hell they are doing here. There goes another draft loophole! I swear, I am taking my young boys out of this country!

[sybylla]

24. My thoughts exactly

They are getting all their ducks in a row for the draft. They can't have anyone avoiding their duty to the corporations to help them take all our money.

[aquart]

16. They're so desperate they'll let the gays back in.

What do you bet they are searching discharge records for trained gays they can reactivate?

[MADem]

18. I actually don't think that will happen

You revisit one discharge, you revisit them all. They do not want to go there. I really think this is a forward-looking strategy, against the day that they reinstitute the draft.

Of course, they'll point to the UK, Holland, Germany, etc., and say their studies are good enough to determine that "unit cohesion" is unaffected. But I cannot see them going back, UNLESS those discharged specifically ASK to rejoin.

This is all about the draft down the road, kids....if we get a GOP president in 08, and the draft hasn't already happened by then (and it well could), it will happen in 09.

War without end, Amen.

[aikanae]

19. legitimitizes some of the abise

this has to be another smokescreen and distraction.

i can't imagine the pentigon arguing for this while still spewing forth with anti-gay legislation.

the tortues might be harder to prove it wasn't consentual.

as usual, i'm sure they've got something else in mind ...doesn't the pentegon have something else to do?

[cap]

20. legally, they've got to bring themselves in line

with the rest of the law...but I do think they understand where the rest of society is.

[NNN0LHI]

25. Military Moving to Change Anti-Sodomy Rule

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=politicsNews&storyID=8255563

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Consensual sodomy between members of the U.S. military no longer would be a criminal act under a proposal sent to Congress by the Pentagon's legal office and made public on Thursday.

Gays could still be drummed out of the military for openly discussing or acting on their sexual preferences. But the separate criminal rule against consensual sodomy would be changed to bring the military legal code closer to that governing civilians, according to the April 7 memorandum.

Under the current Uniform Code of Military Justice, consensual sodomy by heterosexual or homosexual couples can be punished by up to five years in prison. But, if Congress approves, that would be changed so that only "forcible" sodomy or sodomy with a child could be prosecuted as criminal acts.

Groups that advocate gay rights in the military praised the proposal, which must be approved by Congress.

more

[bushisanidiot]

26. So consensual sodomy remains illegal for gays but is A-OK for hets.

what hypocrites!!

[iamjoy]

30. I Think It Is A Step For Homosexuals To Serve Openly.

I would appreciate a military lawyer helping us out here, but the codes governing the military have laws against sodomy. This was seen as a barrier to allowing homosexuals to serve in the military since the assumption would be they were engaging in sodomy. That's why "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" came along to circumvent the codes.

Was there ever really a specific law that homosexuals couldn't serve or just against sodomy?

[Coastie for Truth]

31. This will take it out of the military justice system

but still leave it in the military "HR" (Personal Manual) system. That would require an executive order by the President (after the UCMJ is amended).

Is this in preparation for reinstating the draft? (Homosexuality was an automatic out during VietNam).

[bushisanidiot]

32. Heterosexual sodomites can serve openly and brag about how

they screwed eachother every way possible, but gays aren't allowed to mention their sex lives in any way shape or form or they'll be booted out.

all this does is give the het asshole male the green flag to brag about some b*tch he did up the *ss without having to worry about getting courtmartialed.

[tubbacheez]

27. That's interesting. Sodomy used to be feared more than gays.

Now it seems the opposite is in effect.

[Kikosexy2]

28. So now...

I can get me some booty in the barracks---Yippee!!

[0007]

37. 'Ya can only get a snort of bum in the latrine mate,

the barracks are full of peep freaks.

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[gWbush is Mabus]

29. is this to boost recruitment?

[Theres-a]

33. hmm

[NNN0LHI]

34. Why do I keep thinking there are some embarrassing pictures out there?

Probably just the cynic in me.

Don

[Kikosexy2]

39. Think...

Jeff Gannon's nudie pics!

[NNN0LHI]

40. Oh, shit. Weren't most of his web sites military oriented? Oh, shit n/t

[Kikosexy2]

41. hahahahaha...

yes they were...our poster boy for military recruitment with his butt-hole looking right at you--AMERICA WANTS YOU!!

[onager]

35. "Military justice...

"...is to justice as military music is to music."--Clemenceau

[billyoc]

36. Seems only fair,

since they ok'd *non*-consensual sodomy for interrogations... :eyes: