New pope intervened against Kerry in US 2004 election campaign

[Duncan Grant]

linkhttp://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1521&e=3&u=/afp/20050419/pl_afp/vaticanpopeus
<snip>
WASHINGTON (AFP) - German Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, the Vatican theologian who was elected Pope Benedict XVI, intervened in the 2004 US election campaign ordering bishops to deny communion to abortion rights supporters including presidential candidate John Kerry.

In a June 2004 letter to US bishops enunciating principles of worthiness for communion recipients, Ratzinger specified that strong and open supporters of abortion should be denied the Catholic sacrament, for being guilty of a "grave sin."

He specifically mentioned "the case of a Catholic politician consistently campaigning and voting for permissive abortion and euthanasia laws," a reference widely understood to mean Democratic candidate Kerry, a Catholic who has defended abortion rights.

The letter said a priest confronted with such a person seeking communion "must refuse to distribute it."
<snip>

[babylonsister]

1. WOW. I had no idea.

Edit to add: it's a done deal. For all I know, the other cardinals are applauding and rewarding this guy for his years in service.
I'm not religious, so this isn't an argument I'll pick.

[Tellurian]

133. Could it be...

Bush manipulated this election too?

as implied, for "peanuts"?

[Cha]

2. If bush were Catholic he

damned well better be denied the same freakin' thing.

[BadNews]

5. Doubt it.

Outside of Iraq, these two see eye to eye on most things. I expect the church to quietly snuggle up to the Repugs. Once * is out of office, the may blatantly support them. The war issue will be gone in their eyes. They can turn focus to abortion, a moral life, and right to die with only a small mention of capital punishment.

[jamesinca]

85. Actually they don't

The U.S. media and Republicans like to tell us that they agreed to disagree. In reality a statement by the U.S. Bishops and Pope John Paul II stated that a voter must look at the candidates stance on abortion, war, death penalty, poverty and environmental stewardship. As it was so well put in the statement "Life does not end at birth". As far as this administration and the current batch of right wing fundies is concerned, it does end at birth. I think this sums it up, Bush or any other Republican would not make a very good Catholic.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Life Does Not End at Birth

A Catholic moral framework does not easily fit the ideologies of "right" or "left," nor the platforms of any party.... Our responsibility is to measure all candidates, policies, parties, and platforms by how they protect or undermine the life, dignity, and rights of the human person, whether they protect the poor and vulnerable and advance the common good.
- from "Faithful Citizenship," issued by the United States Catholic Bishops.

It is a common misperception of politicians seeking office that the Catholic vote can be courted by addressing a narrow range of issues. In reality, the great majority of Catholics in the U.S., in agreement with the U.S. Catholic Bishops, will vote for candidates based "on the full range of issues, as well as on personal integrity, philosophy, and performance" (Faithful Citizenship, U.S. Catholic Bishops, 2004).

Members of the media - and indeed a few of our own religious leaders - do a great disservice to our church and nation when they attempt to use one or another issue as the benchmark for Catholic identity.

"The Christian faith is an integral unity, and thus it is incoherent to isolate some particular element to the detriment of the whole of Catholic doctrine. A political commitment to a single isolated aspect of the Church's social doctrine does not exhaust one's responsibility toward the common good" (Doctrinal Note on Some Questions Regarding the Participation of Catholics in Political Life, Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, November 24, 2002, and approved by the Holy Father, Pope John Paul II).

The Catholic Church teaches that all life is sacred. A candidate for office must understand that the Church stands against any policy or course of action that diminishes life, dignity or the rights of the human person: abortion, capital punishment, war, scandalous poverty, denial of healthcare, mistreatment of immigrants and racism, to name but a few.

There are 60 million Catholics in the U.S. We take the responsibility of voting seriously. Each of us will evaluate candidates based on what our conscience - formed by reading the signs of the times in light of the example of Jesus in the Scriptures and the teachings of our Church throughout the ages - demands. We will examine the broad range of issues, measuring "all candidates, policies, parties, and platforms by how they protect or undermine the life, dignity, and rights of the human person, whether they protect the poor and vulnerable and advance the common good" (Faithful Citizenship, U.S. Catholic Bishops, 2004).

[blm]

206. Pope John Paul issued that statement AFTER Ratzinger's foolish

remarks.

Funny how the media hyped up Ratzinger's statement while barely mentioning the correction the Vatican made that was more favorable to Kerry. The word then was that most of the Cardinals didn't like Bush and John Paul didn't seem to care much for him, either. You would never hear the corporate media discussing the truth about Vatican DISDAIN and DISTRUST of Bush.

[saigon68]

220. Most conservative catholics I know LOVE the death Penalty

In their eyes that's how you get rid of minority and black murderers Rapists etc.

THIS IS NO JOKE.

[Stand and Fight]

3. Very well. So be it -- he's a jerk.

Benedict XVI is a despicable, and he has directly intervened in American politics. I hope his reign is short and trouble-ridden. What a jerk. This completely reverses my willingness to have an open-mind about this pope.

[Name removed]

120. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[NNN0LHI]

121. He tried to hide info about clerics having sex with kids and animals

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3509942

1962 document signed by Ratzinger that order sex abuse to be covered up

....................
The document, which has been confirmed as genuine by the Roman Catholic Church in England and Wales, is called 'Crimine solicitationies', which translates as 'instruction on proceeding in cases of solicitation'.

It focuses on sexual abuse initiated as part of the confessional relationship between a priest and a member of his congregation. But the instructions also cover what it calls the 'worst crime', described as an obscene act perpetrated by a cleric with 'youths of either sex or with brute animals (bestiality)'.

Bishops are instructed to pursue these cases 'in the most secretive way... restrained by a perpetual silence... and everyone... is to observe the strictest secret which is commonly regarded as a secret of the Holy Office... under the penalty of excommunication'.

[saigon68]

169. He also helped Cardinal Law "Avoid" THE LONG ARM OF THE LAW

[Pirate Smile]

4. Nice way to change my disappointment to Anger!

[BurgherHoldtheLies]

9. Perfect comment.

nt

[KittyWampus]

6. So The Catholic Church Interfered In A US Election On Behalf Of The GOP

[alcuno]

14. And Catholics in blue states voted for Kerry while Catholics in red states

voted for *. IMHO - no impact.

[karynnj]

22. Unless in some close state there were

Catholics who would ordinarily have been Democratic. Then it did have an impact as the "red" state would if not for this have been a "blue" state. ie Ohio - may have been like this.

[cybildisobedience]

129. I know Catholics who personally didn't vote for Kerry...

because their priests told them they would go to hell if they did. These people actually planned on voting for Kerry, but heard, on the Sunday before the election, that all the good that they did in their lives would be wiped off the board IF they voted for a "pro-abortion" politician and inadvertently caused the death of millions of babies.
These people believed it -- they were raised in the Catholic church, are tremendously susceptible to guilt and anxiety, and didn't want to risk it.
So this guy's interference in an AMERICAN election DID have an impact.
Now, whether the Kerry votes would have been counted at all is another matter....

[mark11727]

136. Sooooo ---

The Constitution prohibits government from interfering with religion (separation of church and state, quietly being chipped away).

BUT...

Religion has no such restriction against interfering with government (God owns your a**, and you'll vote how we tell you to).

That ought to pack 'em in the pews.

[HockeyMom]

167. How many Catholics sitting in those pews

are popping birth control pills every month? Then according to the Catholic Church, THEY THEMSELVES are aborting "babies". Or maybe that doesn't count to them?

[SammyWinstonJack]

178. Unbelievable!

Oh and it's perfectly all right to vote for someone who actually did cause the deaths of untold #s of babies by bombing the crap out of their country? :crazy: Guess these scared catholics who were gonna vote for Kerry didn't think about that when they either, didn't vote or changed their vote to bush**, did they? :crazy: I can't understand this type of "reasoning".

[ClintonTyree]

201. There is no "reasoning"...

there is "belief". To a radical Xtian, "belief" trumps "reason" every time. Thou shalt not think"; the 11th commandment of the rabid Xtian movement.

[KittyWampus]

31. The Negative Publicity Was Just One More Thing They Flung At Kerry

imagine...Kerry STILL got more votes.

[proud2BlibKansan]

43. My entire family is Catholic

and every single one of us voted for Kerry. My mother, 3 siblings, their spouses, 4 aunts, 2 uncles (one of them a priest) and 13 cousins plus 10 spouses. And 5 grandchildren.

And we all live in a red state.

[alcuno]

48. I just meant a majority. If you look at the exit polls,

that's how it played out.

[BadNews]

52. If you look at the exit polls, Kerry won! NT/

[proud2BlibKansan]

58. Okay I will go along with that

My family isn't really all that typical I guess. :)

But I still love them all.

[Virginian]

63. Maybe they are... You'll never know how their votes were counted.

Were they counted they way they voted or the way Rove wanted them to vote?

[proud2BlibKansan]

67. Yuck don't remind me

[leftchick]

119. exactly....

I have lots of Liberal Catholic friends who "voted" for Kerry on those damn touchscreens in the RED state of NC. NC had some of THE most fucked up election "glitches" throughout the state. I believe we went blue! :grr:

[Greylyn58]

149. I tend to agree

I live in Charlotte, NC which thankfully was a blue patch in a red state. I do however think that those stupid touch screen machines messed up some parts of the state that also would have gone blue.

We had problems with vote counts that I think have never been addressed and now have been swept under the rug because we never see any news about it anymore.

Disgusting!!

[leftchick]

225. the good news is...

there are some great verified voting people working with the state legislature to change things. They are making progress! :)

[NicRic]

127. Same Here !

My entire family ,my Mother ,Father and two brothers and my sister and her husband all voted for Kerry ,we are all Catholic ! If the Pope is percieved to be conservative ,thats fine ,I guess you almost expect that from the leader of a relgious association !

[regnaD kciN]

86. Not quite...

Roman Catholic voters swung to Bush in greater numbers in 2004 than 2000, despite the fact that Kerry, unlike Gore, was himself Roman Catholic. In fact, it's not at all impossible to argue that Roman Catholics, not fundamentalists, were the "moral values" voters that decided the election.

:-(

[karynnj]

16. Ironic if true - remembering how JFK had to fight the idea

that he would be controlled by the church. Last year the church apparently was angry that JK voted according to his interpretation of the constitution - and part of the country was mad he wasn't controlled by his church.

This must be hurtful to JK who really does seem more religious than most.

[Voltaire99]

112. Ratzo represents a return to a pre-modern philosophy...

...when church and state observed no Jeffersonian wall, but were rather membranes of the same organ with which the people were fucked.

Agreed, it is an irony within our lifetimes to see the charges JFK faced being validated. And it is an inescapable result, at least in my opinion, given the deep authoritarian roots of Catholicism that were only mildly tempered by Vatican II, have chafed endlessly and fruitlessly against modernism, and which have been given full voice in a time of severe crisis for the church.

Engulfed in scandal, threatened far and wide by the abuses it had tried to hide, the institution has its back against the wall. Now it has turned, like any cornered beast, to snarl.

[demo dutch]

55. That's just an age old fact that the Church sticks it's nose into politics

[2_stolen_elections]

226. So why weren't you complaining

when John Paul II came out *against* the illegal and immoral invasion of Iraq?

[demo dutch]

227. I was, they should stick with religion, and stay out of everything else

[Zorra]

56. Yes. Here is the entire memorandum from Cardinal Rat

zinger.

Notice that this memorandum was made public only 2 months before the election. This guy is as much God's representative on earth as I am the Virgin Mary's representative on earth.
Perhaps he is Karl Rove's representative in the Vatican.

Note: The following memorandum was sent by Cardinal Ratzinger to Cardinal McCarrick and was made public in the first week of July 2004.

2. The Church teaches that abortion or euthanasia is a grave sin. The Encyclical Letter Evangelium vitae, with reference to judicial decisions or civil laws that authorise or promote abortion or euthanasia, states that there is a "grave and clear obligation to oppose them by conscientious objection. <...> In the case of an intrinsically unjust law, such as a law permitting abortion or euthanasia, it is therefore never licit to obey it, or to ‘take part in a propoganda campaign in favour of such a law or vote for it’" (no. 73). Christians have a "grave obligation of conscience not to cooperate formally in practices which, even if permitted by civil legislation, are contrary to God’s law. Indeed, from the moral standpoint, it is never licit to cooperate formally in evil. <...> This cooperation can never be justified either by invoking respect for the freedom of others or by appealing to the fact that civil law permits it or requires it" (no. 74).

3. Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia. For example, if a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the application of capital punishment or on the decision to wage war, he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion. While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment. There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia.
snip----
5. Regarding the grave sin of abortion or euthanasia, when a person’s formal cooperation becomes manifest (understood, in the case of a Catholic politician, as his consistently campaigning and voting for permissive abortion and euthanasia laws), his Pastor should meet with him, instructing him about the Church’s teaching, informing him that he is not to present himself for Holy Communion until he brings to an end the objective situation of sin, and warning him that he will otherwise be denied the Eucharist.

http://www.priestsforlife.org/magisterium/bishops/04-07ratzingerommunion.htm

[regnaD kciN]

87. So much...

Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia. For example, if a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the application of capital punishment or on the decision to wage war, he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion.

...for the claim that Rome follows a "seamless garment" approach to so-called pro-life issues, wherein not only abortion but war, capital punishment, and economic injustice are condemned.

Pace George Orwell, it seems that some "pro-life" issues are "more equal than others."

:grr:

[Tellurian]

172. kick~

nt/

[AngryOldDem]

199. I don't think Rome ever did...

..fully subscribe to "seamless garment." Many conservative Catholics will argue with you that such a theory is flawed; I know, I've engaged in "dialogue" with many.

"Seamless garment" was the concept from the late Cardinal Bernardin, who had so many knives in his back from his brethren in the hierarchy that it was disgusting and pathetic. And, yes, to some in the Church, some life issues are more equal than others.

I was recently asked in a roundabout way to join a new pro-life group at my parish. I did not take them up on the offer because right now I'm pretty sour on the "pro-life" movement. Until it also begins to consider the death penalty, quality of life for the already-born, and other related issues, I'll stick to my social justice work, thanks very much.

[calimary]

192. Well, thereya go. I not only don't want to go back, I can't.

I had heard about this but had forgotten the specifics. So that seals it. For me, a woman's right to have the last word over her own body and her health care choices is an ABSOLUTE. It is NON-NEGOTIABLE. Just as it's any man's right to decide he ought to go get himself a Viagra prescription.

When they start legislating what can happen with the scrotum, they can start legislating what can happen with the uterus.

Oh well... it's just that much more money I'll have to donate to Howard Dean and company.

[Deja Q]

7. Now that is a real rat-zinger.

:-(



Looks like an evil mutha, too. :scared:

[GainesT1958]

13. This guy sounds like a dictator....

And was in the youth movement of a tyrant...while at the same time a young Polish priest named Karol Woytylwa was hiding Jewish families in the Crakow area to prevent them from being sent to Aushwitz...

He may have been his lieutenant, but this old fart isn't worthy of kissing John Paul II's feet on a bad day!:mad:

The College of Cardinals just plain blew it on this one; now question about it. I think maybe instead of saying "Viva Il Papa", his Roman parrishoners (he is now the Bishop of Rome) need to say "Seig Heil, Il Papa"!:eyes:

Why, oh why, couldn't they have picked that Cardinal from Honduras?

B-)

[davidinalameda]

62. do you think that he said anything without JP's approval?

remember who appointed the majority of the cardinals who chose this guy

[AndyTiedye]

92. After JP2 Got Sick, Ratz Was Running Things

[davidinalameda]

170. JP2 was still running things

nothing changed--the rhetoric coming from the Vatican was the same

I really love the way people have selective memory about JP2 now that he's dead

[grytpype]

20. Yeah, he's not "TV pretty"

He's not a cuddly-cute little Pope like JP2.

He looks like Satan's idea of a Nazi.

[rucky]

66. Is that anything like a RatZapper?

[CoffeeCat]

77. That is one scary picture. I'll have nightmares now! (nt)

[El Supremo]

8. Like I said today...

This is a declaration of war on liberal American Catholics.

[Paul Dlugokencky]

11. No room at the inn?

[regnaD kciN]

90. Not just Americans...

According to a friend I have with good "Rome-watching" skills, the new conservative strategy is to concentrate on Africa and Latin America, where the populace is more conservative and willing to "pray, pay, and o-bey." Europe is frankly written-off as possessed by secularism. For the American RCC, there is still some hope, in that the burgeoning and still "faithful" Latino population will more than make up for disaffected liberals who may leave the Church.

What this means, ironically enough, is that the Roman Catholic Church in the early decades of the 21st century may come to be seen much as it was a century earlier -- as a vast, authoritarian, monolithic structure made up mostly of ethnic minorities for whom it has always been part of their heritage.

:shrug:

[Straight Shooter]

142. The Vatican loves the poor, because nobody gives like the poor.

I figured this out a long time ago, that the poor will gladly give up what they have to the Church, far out of proportion percentage-wise than the well-to-do will contribute. They honestly believe they are doing the will of God.

Nobody gives like the poor. That's why the Vatican just loves them. :eyes:

[vpigrad]

10. Why do so many people here defend this Hitler Youth?

Why? Why? How much more proof do those idiots need?

I hope the media can find a picture of the new pope in his Nazi uniform. That would really cause some people to think. I'm sure there's a picture out there somewhere.

[Igel]

Because teenagers do stupid things, and families do stupid things

when they feel threatened.

And because saying that a 14-year-old's indiscretions are worthy of pemanent punishment says that (1) people can't change, and (2) they mustn't be forgiven.

Many people have skeletons in their closets. Most of them should stay there.

[Lindacooks]

81. His age keeps getting younger in each story.

He was 17 years old when he was in the army of the third reich. And this isn't a 'skeleton'; it's one of the most heinous acts the human race has ever committed. AND he hasn't denounced it and hasn't asked for forgiveness.

[NickB79]

113. He was 14 when he was drafted in 1941

By 17 or so he had deserted to US troops and placed in a POW camp.

I hate to sound like I'm defending him, because he was absolutely my LAST choice for the next pope and I really think he's scum, but this whole Nazi thing is crap. He was DRAFTED to fight, with no say in the matter, and spent his time manning an anti-aircraft gun. As far as I know, he saw no direct combat, or committed any war crimes or atrocities. When he had the chance, he deserted.

If someone were to claim that a US soldier who was drafted against his will to fight in Vietnam, but never committed an atrocity or war crime there, was a piece of scum, would that be ok? Would you ask every Vietnam soldier who fought there to denounce the US government and ask forgiveness, even if they committed no war crimes and were opposed to fighting in the first place?

Again, NOT saying I like this new pope or his politics. But please people, there is more than enough dirt to bury this guy with other than the shaky argument of his WWII history. His hardline viewpoints, lack of willingness to change with the times, no to women priests or married priests, his cover-up of child molestation, etc.

[RaleighNCDUer]

128. The nazis did not draft 14 yr olds in 1941.

The youngest draft was 16 yr olds (though they accepted Hitler Youth volunteers who were younger), in 1944 and later, when they were losing. They did draft boys as young as 12 in the defense of Berlin, 1945, but not before then or in other places. In '41 they were winning everything and the draft was still for 18 yr olds.

I'm wondering where this young man hid for a year after deserting in '44. He could hardly have been out on the streets without being picked up. Was he involved with something else during the last year of the war that he didn't want to disclose to the allies that captured him in April '45? The church was involved with getting nazis out of Germany after the war -- did they also take nazis into seminary schools to give them cover?

[pie]

159. That is food for thought. I would like to know the rest of the story

From what I can see and hear, I like nothing about this guy

[Sequoia]

190. Thank you for saying that.

Children fighting wars is never any good for anyone.

[w4rma]

118. Unfortunately this guy's actions have been right in line with someone who

*still* supports a pro-Nazi agenda. His policies, within the church, are very very authoritarian.

The quicker you face the fact that the new spiritual leader of the Catholic church supported Hitler and the Holocaust, the better. Don't even hope that anything good will come from his leadership. Any good that comes out of this will come from outside of his leadership.

[Rich Hunt]

123. what about his other policies

I'd be interested in knowing his policies on, say, economics or militarism. Those are pretty key components of fascism, no?

[iamjoy]

32. Don't Forget Our Own Senator Byrd

Who was once a Klansman.

We should not criticize or make comments about Ratzinger being part of the Hitler Youth. Perhaps if we had knowledge that he took part in or directly witnessed war crimes...

That said, the contrast to Karol Wojtyla IS startling. JPII did much to heal the tensions between Jews and Catholics, and to reach out to people of all faiths. I wonder if this would have been possible had he not had a personal history of standing up to oppresive governments and bigotry. Not the same with Joseph Ratzinger. I don't see B-XVI reaching out to other religions.

[NNN0LHI]

68. That straw-man is really getting old. Can't you think of a new one? n/t

[Lindacooks]

82. Byrd has fervently apologized for being a Klansman

Ratzinger has not apologized for being in the Hitler Youth. That is a huge difference.

[iamjoy]

162. Perhaps, But Didn't Ratzinger Say He Was Forced?

I thought in his autobiography, he said he had to join.

[Mondon]

173. Yes. HY compulsory by 1936

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler_Youth

[cobaindrain]

44. I'm sure the uniform itself would fetch a pretty penny on ebay

[Mondon]

145. Membership was compulsory

Membership in the Hitler Youth became compulsory in 1936, when Ratzinger was approximately 9-10 years old. Hard to call him a Nazi on the basis of his membership.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler_Youth#Membership

[barbaraann]

12. I'm worried he's going to inferfere in Italian politics and

save Berlusconi.

[GainesT1958]

24. Hmmm...Tom Delay comes to mind on this side of the pond...

I'd really hate to see Benedict intervene on HIS behalf!:eyes:

At the very least, this guy reminds me of a befrocked Rumsfeld.

B-)

[grytpype]

15. Heil Pope Ratzo!

[cal04]

17. I don't get it.

(ordering bishops to deny communion to abortion rights supporters)
but it was ok to cover this up? What is going on with these people?

Priestly Sin, Cover-Up

The accusers say Vatican-based Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, who heads the Vatican office to safeguard the faith and the morals of the church, quietly made the lawsuit go away and shelved it. There was no investigation and the accusers weren't asked a single question or asked for a statement.

He was appointed by the pope to investigate the entire sex abuse scandal in the church in recent days. But when approached by ABCNEWS in Rome last week with questions of allegations against Maciel, Ratzinger became visibly upset and actually slapped this reporter's hand. "Come to me when the moment is given," Ratzinger told ABCNEWS, "not yet."

"Cardinal Ratzinger is sheltering Maciel, protecting him," said Berry, who expressed concerns that no response was being given to the allegations against the man charged with sex abuse. "These men knelt and kissed the ring of Cardinal Ratzinger when they filed the case in Rome. And a year-and-a-half later, he takes those accusations and aborts them, just stuffs them."
http://web.archive.org/web/20020607141945/http://abcnews.go.com/sections/2020/DailyNews/2020_Vatican_coverup_020426.html

Vatican told bishops to cover up sex abuse
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1020400,00.html

[Zhade]

117. You're talking about the same RCC that covered up child rape...

...as a matter of written policy.

How can this be a surprise?

[sescob]

18. Ugh n/t

[lovuian]

19. Yep this Pope is called the Enforcer and is Bush's buddy!!!

You can't tell me Ratzinger wasn't running the church now for years while John Paul was sick!!!

[peacetalksforall]

21. The declaration against Kerry is an atrocity. The Vatican is going

backwards. They're going to lose alot of Catholics. He is setting up a split in the CC.

[UrbScotty]

23. Would Jesus have done the same? (nt)

[GainesT1958]

28. Not in my book, He wouldn't!

Now, in Jerry Falwell's, on the other hand...:eyes:

B-)

[AzDar]

25. "God's rottweiler" ....Why does God need an attack dog?? eom

[Generator]

26. Stealing some other DU'ers line

The coup is complete.

Evil versus good get ready to rumble for the final showdown.

2012 anyone?

[peace_prevails]

84. This right-left rubber band is stretching like a mo fo....

and it ain't gonna be pretty when she snaps... eom

[The_Casual_Observer]

27. What would Jesus do?

It has become clear that god has nothing to do with selecting a pope. That shitbird is living proof that it's all made up.

[ReadTomPaine]

156. Are you kidding me? This has been clear for centuries. Recall the Borgias.

http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/history/borgias/1.html?sect=6

"A strange and bewildering family, the Borgias. Eleven cardinals of the Holy Roman Catholic Church. Three popes. A queen of England. A saint. A family with long tentacles, beginning in the Fourteenth Century in Spain, and reaching through the history of Fifteenth and Sixteenth Century Italy, Spain, and France. Greed, murder, incest. And --- strangely --- piety"
...
"The papal guards forced the ragged prisoners into St. Peter's Square. They were shackled at the wrists and gathered in a close knot near its geographical center. The guards formed a phalanx at the broad entry into the square, preventing escape. The prisoners looked up at the Vatican windows, where, on a small balcony at one of the larger windows, the seventy-year-old Pope Alexander VI, formerly Rodrigo Borgia, stood with his twenty-year-old daughter, Lucrezia Borgia. Both were smiling. A few windows away, dressed completely in black velvet, was Alexander's son, Cesare Borgia. Beside him was a servant, also dressed all in black."
...
"Suddenly, one of the prisoners fell, shot by Cesare. The prisoners scurried throughout the square, aware that someone in one of those windows was firing upon them. With each shot, the servant handed Cesare a new rifle, fully primed, and he fired again. Each shot was followed by a fresh rifle, and another shot. Within a matter of minutes, all of the prisoners were dead."

"Alexander waved to his son. "Fine aim, my son," said the Pope. Cesare smiled and waved back, and he and his servant left the window and entered the Vatican apartment. Four men, pulling a cart, began to remove the bodies, tossing them in like limp sacks of grain. Cesare's harvest was taken away, to be thrown into the Tiber."

[NNguyenMD]

29. lets see BENEDICT put his money where his mouth is and try to

excommunicate some of our Abortion Rights politicians. I gurantee he'll weaken the Catholic church and papacy for generations if he does that.

And if he doesn't do it, he's nothing but an all bark no bite pussy.

I wish John Paul II were still around.

[BadNews]

34. They may be denied communion. No excommunication.

It takes alot to get excommunicated. But without communion, you are still likely to be damned. Remember that one pope cout off communion from all of England because the king refused to do as he was told. The people thoght they were going to hell and pressured the king. He then went to Rome and "repented"; atleast for a short time.

There will definately be a larege brew-ha-ha over this.

[New Dealer]

30. I don't want to sound mean, but...

This better be a short Papacy!

[Disturbed]

36. Catholic Church is a farce, Vatican is a RW Corp. State.

Divorce is not allowed. If a Catholic divorces it is considered a sin and any new marriage cannot be in their church. If a Catholic divorces and re-mairies outside of the Catholic Church the marriage is considered invalid and living in sin. Yet, an anullement can be granted with money given to the church even if that marriage was consumated and been going on for years. What a farce!

[agincourt]

181. You are exactly right,

it is a pontificating RW farce, and it might as well be lumped in with Swaggert , Robertson and all the troll churches. I don't see anything inspirational or enlightening coming out of the Catholic church for thinking people. It's a foolish hope to think otherwise.

[gtar100]

217. Well thank God their beliefs are fictional.

Jesus spoke out and brought action against the Temple in Jerusalem...imagine what he'd do with the Vatican.

These bishops are drunk with power also...imagine dictates over heaven and hell. They brought down the Roman Empire, plunged Europe into centuries of dark ages, and these the same forces are working against the Enlightenment. Beware, brothers, beware. They want to own your soul.

Is that good feeling you get under the spell of Christian doctrine worth it?

[Mountainman]

33. Well then take away the tax exempt status from the Catholic church

I'm a recovering Catholic and have no quarrels with the church as long as it stays the hell out of my life. But interfering with an election is interfering with my life so I have a quarrel with the church.

The timing of the attack on Kerry is very telling.

I say remove the tax exempt status and charge the church with criminal intent to interfere with a U S election.

[BadNews]

35. The judiciary will be controled by Repukes soon.

Fundies will not allow that to happen. How often do we see politicians from both parties campigning in churches? Many churches are politically active. They will never have their tax-exempt status repealed. Most Americans still believe in some form of diety. They will stand together on this.

[Mondon]

150. careful

There are a lot of African American churches that stump for Dems.

[Sanity Claws]

228. That's what I was thinking

Vatican City is a sovereign nation that tried to interfere with an American election.

[Hosnon]

37. Just got on my bad list like THAT (imagine me snapping)! eom

[annabanana]

38. No wonder the media kept calling him the "apparent frontrunner"

I never DID hear where they got that characterization from...Did anyone else?

[Zorra]

39. Not the first time Catholic Cardinals collaborated with the fascists.

Just another wealthy, decadent corporate puppet protecting the interests of his class by helping elect a wealthy warmongering, executioner like Bush.

[arewenotdemo]

57. nice effect

As an ex-Catholic, I can't abide any of those Nazis.

I also can't understand why any decent and intelligent people remain in the Church.

[tallahasseedem]

164. Those pictures are absolutely chilling...

:scared:

[Zorra]

171. Why did Pope Neocon I deliberately help a fascist warmongerer retain

power?

Why?

Given the Catholic Church's past collaboration with fascist warmongerers, it really looks bad.

Perhaps the new Pope should make a public apology in front of the entire world.

Because he has helped to bring a great deal more darkness, evil, death, destruction, misery, and poverty upon the people of this planet by helping a fascist monster like Bush.

Perhaps his reason was to help bring about Armageddon.

Maybe he believes or knows that Bush is "the Beast".

Who knows? The Catholic Church is a very mystical organization, and after all, he is the Pope.

[SpiralHawk]

40. Will this play in Freeporia?

One wonders what the assorted Freepers and Fundamentalists are making of this. The Bush seems very much in league with Bennie the Zinger. Who could imagine?

[young_at_heart]

41. The neo-cons must be happy

It seems politics and religion do mix together after all.

[Dirk39]

42. Supporters of abortion should be denied...

killing 100.000 Iraqis is o.k.

That's all you have to know about these hypocrites.
They are pro-life as long as life just happens inside a mother's womb.
But better don't leave...

Hello from Germany,
Dirk

[high density]

45. So why didn't he campaign against both Kerry AND Bush?

I know he isn't Catholic, but Bush has his wars (Iraq, rich v. poor) and capital punishment, all of which are against the teachings of the Church.

This is why I left the Catholic Church. If they're going to play politics, first they need to pay taxes, then they need to expose that BOTH sides have issues that conflict with the teachings of the Church. I can't understand why they feel perfectly happy to cuddling up with the warmongering corporatists to stop birth control and abortions while so many other more important issues (poverty, world peace) go ignored.

[cobaindrain]

50. because Ratzinger opposed the Iraq war only to please John Paul

deep down in side I feel he is pro war, and his view on the conflict will become more hawkish in the coming months. Don't expect and condemnations of the ware from BenedictXVI

[demo dutch]

54. I complete;y agree, any non-catholic is a heretic in his eyes. Don;t

be surprised if he won't oppose an invasion into Iran. The new crusades! The last Benedict was during WW1 he accomplised nothing in terms of peace.

[demo dutch]

51. Because it's all about anti-abortion. Here is what Ratzinger wrote

in September 2004:

"A Catholic would be guilty of formal cooperation with evil, and so unworthy to present himself for Holy Communion, if he were to deliberately vote for a candidate precisely because of the candidate's permissive stance on abortion or euthanasia. When a Catholic does not share the candidate's stance in favor of abortion or euthanasia, but votes for that candidate for other reasons, it is considered remote material cooperation, which can be permitted in the presence of proportionate reasons."

For the rest his values are pretty much the same as Bush, anti-gay anti-women, anti-child

[NNN0LHI]

46. Ummm. Where did all the pope defenders go? Night night maybe? n/t

[demo dutch]

47. The very reason why Bush attended the funeral! Because it was pretty

much a given Ratzinger was going to be next Pope!

They're totalyy on the same "Value" track... anti-gay, anti-abortion, anti-child (sex scandels) etc..
He's so conversative, he's probably in favor of Crusades. Probably won't appose an invasion into Iran, so the administration must be very pleased!

[AlCzervik]

49. That pisses me off.

[Mr.Soul]

53. Siegfriend and Roy with the last Pope, but not the new one

Seems the shrill Pubs are taking this Nazi Youth as one of their own, nice.

I think the new Pope would kick these guy's ass, as he is a hard liner, blah.

[screembloodymurder]

59. I really don't like this guy

He takes pleasure in adulation.

[BadGimp]

60. The Vatican just Ratfucked the world

You wait and see what hell this guy will bring on non believers.

Grab some popcorn kiddies, this will get interesting.

[BadNews]

61. What impact can he have on non-believers?

I'm not Catholic so I don't worry much about what they believe.

[Heddi]

75. well let's see:

The Vatican sits on the UN and repeatedly votes against any issues that have ANYTHING to do (even remotely) with contraception, AIDS control, birth control, fertility and family planning options.

Roman Catholic Preists in Africa have told Africans that not only do condoms NOT stop AIDS, but that condoms actually are laced with the virus as well.

But go ahead not worrying about the Roman Catholic Church. I mean, only 1/6th of the world's population is Catholic. IT's only the largest religion in the world.

Nah. Just worry your pretty little head about other things :eyes:

[BadNews]

83. Still doesn't have much effect on NON-Catholics.

The Vatican is only one of how many nations in the UN? They have no real veto power, and still only 1 vote. I'm more worried about fundi Islamic votes, and vetos by this administration.

Roman Catholic priests preach to CATHOLICS in Africa. If that is not your brand of religion, you don't listen to them. 1/6 of the world's population is a good amount, but that 1/6 of the world's population needs to be wise enough to make there own decisions. I don't want fundies in my bedroom, and I don't plan to invade theirs in order to make sure they use condoms.

[regnaD kciN]

93. What about this?

The Vatican, going further than in 2004, declares that anyone who supports or votes for a "pro-choice" candidate when there is a "pro-life" candidate running is in mortal sin and not allowed to receive communion.

They make a similar declaration requiring Roman Catholics, on pain of mortal sin, to vote against all referenda that would give gays and lesbians equal rights, or any candidate who supported such rights.

Then, they likewise demand that Roman Catholics vote for resolutions and candidates that would outlaw artificial birth-control. (Sound far-fetched? I remember attending Mass in one SoCal parish where the congregation was required to join in intercessions that God would so move the hearts of our public officials to outlaw contraception.)

[BadNews]

97. Still, the voting is done by Roman Catholics

They still have the freedom to choose. The church can make whatever recommendations (insert radical mandates) it likes. Those who are truly progressive will either ignore it or leave for another church where their beliefs are represented. I still think we are doing some wishful thinking in believing many people who regularly attend church (even catholic church)are your textbook progressive. We may not like the results, but they have the right to believe and vote how their conscience dictates. How often do we complain about them forcing their beliefs on us? We should not try to do the same to them.

[sonicx]

99. I can't recall anyone here saying they want to force Catholics to vote...

a certain way or believe a certain thing. It goes without saying that people have a right to believe want they want. Dissenters also have a right to vigorously oppose them.

[BadNews]

100. Sure, you should opose their views vigorously

Just don't expect them to change, and don't exagerate the impact of their internal decisions on the rest of us. It has been my experience that people listen to the religious leaders then make their own decisions.

[sonicx]

101. "don't exagerate the impact of their internal decisions on the rest of us"

yeah, it's not like they're going out to vote against gay marriage or anything. :sarcasm:

Since they will never change, I guess there's no hope for it (gay marriage) ever, huh?

[BadNews]

104. Change comes from convincing individuals around you.

If we all do the same many of those who would vote for the dark side will change their ways. Otherwise, you would be right. There would be no hope for things like gay marriage.

Most people who vote, do so after choosing which side of the issue is best. Voters are not the apathetic Americans. They are the ones who care about this country. Even when they don't agree with us.

[mark11727]

161. Before the 2004 elections, our church would urge us to VOTE...

...our CONSCIENCES, after of course, making it very obvious what they expected and wanted our consciences to BE.

[BadNews]

177. Don't their teachings tell you what you concience should say? NT/

[NickB79]

115. Rumors spread

The Catholic priest tells his congregation that condoms don't work, or are actually laced with HIV itself, and the congregation members tell the rumor to neighbors who may not be Catholic. The rumor spreads, and condom usage declines. HIV goes up. Non-Catholics die.

[billyf65]

155. Because all Catholics are that stupid?

[Mondon]

144. Vatican doesn't vote at the UN

The Holy See is a "Non-Member State Maintaining Permanent Observer Mission." See: http://www.un.org/Overview/missions.htm|

[sonicx]

98. If someone attacks pro-choicers and gets press for it...

it will effect everyone. Because 1. the press will repeat the charges over and over (swift boat) and 2. it will stimatize the pro-choice position in general.

I don't care if certain christians are against gays, but if you go on TV to slam, I will care.

[BadNews]

102. They have the right to express bigotry. It is up to us not to listen.

Also, how much press did the abortion clinic bomber get? How about the guy that shot doctors that performed abortions? They got publicity, then they were found guilty and punished for their crimes. That publicity was not positive. If stuff like that happens they will be stigmatized.

As the bigots get on TV they need to be repudiated at every turn, but like other bigots, they still get their say in a society with freedom of speech. In fact, I say let them talk, the more they spew their venom, the more people will be repulsed by it. In the long run, even that furthers the cause of justice.

[sonicx]

105. "It is up to us not to listen."

That worked so well with the Swift Vets...

Sorry, but I can't count on the intelligence of a nation where many people still believe Saddam had something to do with 9/11.

"they still get their say in a society with freedom of speech."

Again, who says they don't? Enough with that strawman.

"How about the guy that shot doctors that performed abortions?"

People who are against abortion will still be against abortion when that occurs. If someone is a pro-choice christian and the media parades anti-choice religous leaders, it is possible that they will chance their minds.

[BadNews]

107. You have no choice but to rely on the intelligence of that nation

By the same token, if an anti-choice Christian hears the views of pro-choice advocates, they can change their stance as well. We need to win in debates and hearts in the "arena of ideas." Dissect their arguments without an outright attack on their institutions. If you throw fuel on the fires of resentment between our points of view most people have a tendency to become defensive rather than listen to what you have to say.

[Ysolde]

64. Ugh!

That's just plain wrong! This just re-confirms that my choice to raise my daughter and son in the Episcopal Church was the right (only!) choice.

[McCamy Taylor]

65. I wondered if the Bush cabal would pick the next Pope. They did.

[Betty]

69. How about denying communion to those who support the death penalty?

fucking hypocrites.

[BadNews]

91. Their answer

Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia. For example, if a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the application of capital punishment or on the decision to wage war, he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion.

[Jacobin]

138. How conveeeeenient

So, blowing up 100,000 men, women and children, innocent Iraqis...not a problem!!! I thought these clerics were not into 'moral relativasim', but obviously I was mistaken.

[Sandpiper]

148. You must be under the impression that this Pope cares about Muslims

Well, let me clear that up for you.

This Pope is personally opposed to Turkey joining the EU because it is a non-Christian nation.

Can't have them tainting the pool and such.

[Javaman]

70. Popen Furer

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

71. On reading this....Fuck the new pope.

Simple.

He's a knee-jerk consevative ignoramus stuck in the 18th century.
<[br />

[Don_1967]

221. I AGREE

[CHIMO]

72. Caesar

Shall not be a Roman Catholic.

I think of all the loops that JFK went through to prove that he was not subject to Rome. This guy, and his cohorts, have just blown this all away.
Now the RC's and their philosophy can forget about influencing mainstream politics.

[osaMABUSh]

73. I knew JPII would be a tough act to follow but it looks

like they choose somebody who is the anti-John Paul II. I know they were both conservative but besides that XVI has nothing on the surface.

He doesn't even look religious.

When you saw JPII all you could think was this guy prays so hard it's giving me a headache. And how about their backgrounds? JP survived the Nazi's, saved a country, helped defeat communism, loved and was loved by billions.

I am not pleased with the selection.

[teryang]

74. Next we'll be getting the "just war theology" for pre-emptive war

Just what the bushistas ordered.

[gauguin57]

76. Until Pope Joan II appears on that balcony, I don't give a rat's ass

about any of this pope crap.

Any church that, for starters, denies women the right to leadership positions AND refuses to allow birth control ... or even condoms to be used to help stop the AIDS pandemic in Africa ... is BULLSHIT! And don't even get me started on a woman's right to have control over her own BODY.

I know the Catholic church doesn't care if it has my respect or not ... but it has lost every bit of respect I ever had for the faith of my girlhood.

This Rat-zinger is a misogynist and a homophobe. And he can kiss my lapsed-Catholic ass!

[bunkerbuster1]

135. I liked that so much, I changed my sig quote.

thanks!

[Seabiscuit]

203. I'll wait for Pope Mary Magdalene before I give a rat's ass.

Viva la Da Vinci Coda!

[NVMojo]

78. why did I feel the Smirking Chimp knew something when he attended

that funeral?? Fecking creeps....

[blueblitzkrieg]

79. This is disgusting - makes me want to puke! n/t

[dArKeR]

80. It's okay to eat flesh and drink blood

It's only a game the priest are playing

[Vektor]

88. Whatta surprise - another "Swift Pope Veteran for Bush"

Criminals, liars and thieves. All of them.

[peace_prevails]

89. looks like the old evil eye goes way back...

the new infallable leader is standing, at right

[Erika]

94. Let's get rid of their tax-exempt status

They want to be GOP activists, let them do it without a tax exempt status. Let's also seek active actions against their pedophiles.

[BadNews]

96. Religions will stick together on this one. It won't happen.

Point 1: The tax exempt status will not be repealed because so many politicians campaign at churches throughout the country. Also, like it or not, most people in this country believe in some religion. Any politician that pokes that hornets nest, will get stung. Finally, don't bet on judges making any changes. The judiciary will soon be far more conservative. Lets hope another republican is not elected next time.

Point 2: If DAs had evidence of pedophilia and statutes of limitations had not expired, they would prosecute the priest. Those priests should be in jail but most of the cases are decades old.

[Voltaire99]

108. Good idea

As religion inserts itself into the body politic the way many priests have their parishioners, there is no need to maintain the old fictions. Doing so only hurts us.

Let's tax away.

[BadNews]

110. We can't even stop RW judges.....

How do you propose we pull this off?

[Voltaire99]

114. How to crack down on our politicized churches

We could enforce 26 U.S.C. § 501, for instance, which grants churches tax exemption provided they do not "participate in, or intervene in (including the publishing or distributing of statements), any political campaign on behalf of (or in opposition to) any candidate for public office."

Ratzo's arm-bending of US Catholic churches so they'd withhold communion from pols like Kerry surely must be a violation.

We could also throw RICO at them, always a source for novel application. The incestuous marriage of churches with their own media corporations, fundraising operations, and political action appendages must constitute a form of racketeering that subverts the ban on political engagement required by their tax exemptions.

But rather than trying to enforce the law, which in practice means the IRS and states end up giving free passes to Religion, Inc., while focussing their scattershot wrath on small and oddball churches, we should just do away with this unwonted exemption entirely. Let's stop pretending that churches are divorced economically and politically from our society. They aren't. Hell, in the age of the megachurch, they're big businesses.

How to do this, you ask? The real question is how to stem our creeping American Talibanism--how do we find the muscle for secularism in an increasingly mystical society, one moving closer all the time to theocracy?

I have one idea. Lower the drinking age. ;-)

[Mondon]

157. How would that affect African American churches that tend to support Dems?

[BadNews]

176. I think the law works differently

I don't think the law prohibits churches from taking political stances on issues. Rather it prohibits the endorsement of particular candidates. I think this should have quite an effect in areas where churches allow candidates to appear and campaign in their walls.

Yet many churches get around this by preaching that you should be politically active and vote for the candidate that best represents their religious teachings. Without naming names of parties or candidates, they sidestep the law. In essence, this is what the Catholic church did with their memo here in the states. We know they meant John Kerry but without naming him or a political party they did not endorse * officially.

I agree that the IRS may be able to do something that would cool many of them, but they won't. It is a topic they do not want to touch. Also, the loop-hole will not be filled while such a large percentage of Americans support churches.

[Mondon]

186. agree

that the loop hole is unlikely to be filled for the reason you state.

[Voltaire99]

188. The same way...

..., as you suspect, that it would affect right wing churches.

Good for the goose, good for the gander: I want us to preserve secular democracy, and that requires policing the Jeffersonian wall rather than putting stained glass windows in it.

[Mondon]

213. agree eom

[Pachamama]

95. Guess I'll be "denied" communion for the rest of my life. I'm Pro-choice

...and that will never change...

Good bye Catholic Church...Pope Rightwinger is going to be the * of Catholicism...

[Voltaire99]

109. It's not Atkins, but you'll cut down on carbs.

;-)

[HockeyMom]

168. Going to have to excommunicate a LOT of Catholics

using the Pill, IUD's, condoms, and even NFP to ONLY space their kids, not LIMIT the number of them.

[fortyfeetunder]

103. Guys like Ratzinger make me want to convert to RC

so I can experience the joys of excommunication!

[Voltaire99]

106. Swift Boat Popes against Kerry!

Heh.

This should throw our resident triangulators into a tizzy...

Let's see. This new pope's against Kerry! Oooh, that burns me! But in a more religiously conservative America, we need the Catholic vote! Oh, my, I'd better find something positive to say that withholds my approval without sending disapproval, all the while looking for common ground! Maybe they like Lieberman??? Note to self: send out feelers! Stay on message--Kerry good, anti-Kerry popes less good!

[Dr Fate]

111. I don't like the new Pope. n/t

n/t

[Zhade]

116. Now...if I say this new pope is a corrupt, self-righteous sonofabitch...

...does that violate the rules against "bashing" Catholics' faith?

I hope not, because then I'd be guilty of breaking that rule - again, and again, and again, and again, and...

[patcox2]

131. Where do you have evidence of corruption?

It would make you a person who makes up things to say about people when you really don't know if its true or not.

[Zhade]

198. I should have clarified and said "morally corrupt".

Ethically corrupt. Sorry for the confusion.

[Massachusetts]

122. The catholic church should pick up

Dale Carnegies "How To Win Friends and Influence People", it might help.

[LynneSin]

124. The Boy King must be creaming his pants with that story

:puke:

[Hobarticus]

125. Whoops. Well, if I were an on-the-fence Catholic before

I'm off now.

Anyone have the Episcopilian's number?

[piece sine]

137. yes

It's written on Henry the 8th grave....

[Botany]

204. Yes, I do .....

...... Call 1 800 We think God Gave Us Brains.


Come join us. We all sit in the back rows anyway. At least at most Episcopalian
churches that is.

Pope Benny the Rat. Screw 'em.

[jahyarain]

126. hold it

we're talking about a group of people who believe only they can decide what God wants. in a rational society, we've never had a use for any pope or their Godless church.

[patcox2]

130. This is a wedge, a perfect wedge, watch as you are divided and conquered.

I have never seen such a wedge, it works all ways.

First, there is the lingering anti-catholicism in some parts of america, those people who would not vote for a catholic because "he'll just do what the Pope tells him." This plays right into their fears and confirms their prejudice. So that probably cost Kerry a half a point.

Then you have the outraged liberals, denouncing the Pope using derogatory terms. This offends the swing catholics, and drives them right into Karl Rove's arms (he has a long term plan to change the voting habits of american catholics, they historically vote democratic, but he is succeeding in converting them.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

139. Sorry friend but I think you are blinded by your own protectiveness

on this one.

If Jerry Falwell had said this you'd be all over it. This is NOT a wedge. This is a pope using the threat of hell fires and lack of grace to seduce his flock into believeing that if they voted for Kerry and died tomorrow they would not die in a state of grace.

Reread the thread. Catholics have a problem with this guy.

[billyf65]

154. I agree, to a point

It enrages me when I hear from fellow catholics who vote GOP because of social issues.

So many evangelicals have no respect at all for Catholics. I found one blog which in one heading, ridiculed Jack Chick (jack chick publications are, if you aren't familiar, evangelical cartoons that are notoriously anti-catholic), and in another praised Ben16 and belittled so-called "liberal" catholics.

They just don't get it.

And when strings like this one rage against catholicism because an antiquated bureaucracy that has little effect on the day-to-day lives of most catholics, chooses an antiquated leader who will have little effect on the day-to-day lives of most catholics, it becomes the prevailing wisdom of what "liberals believe."

Every Nazi post, every post damning the pope because he doesn't look cuddly, every post suggesting the pope is evil, bad or otherwise in cahoots with warmongering Bush is a post that will be reprinted elsewhere and will plant the seeds of "liberals are anit-catholic."

And if you think this doesn't matter, check the stats on religious belief in swing states like Michigan, Pennsylvania, Louisiana and Iowa. LOTS OF CATHOLICS THERE.

I'm not suggesting people love Ben16. But please, for the good of everyone who doesn't want the GOP to continue their dominance, cool the rhetoric. You aren't helping.

[catastrophicsuccess]

182. So Rat is taking orders from Rove?

Sounds like you can't wait to be 'converted'.

[saigon68]

183. Karl Rove is an EVIL SCUMBAG

And a bully who convinces rustic weak minded sheep to HATE Negroes etc.

[Jeff in Cincinnati]

132. Honeymoon Over!

I was willing to give the guy the benefit of the doubt.

Fuck him and fuck his pointy hat.

[clem_c_rock]

134. This new Pope is a archaic stepback

Mr Nazi priest does it again.

[JohnnyBoots]

140. It will all come to a head when the "DaVinci Code" movies is out

I bet there will be a big push to ban it in several areas, the church all ready freaked out when the book came out. That will be the start of the main event.

[SlowDownFast]

152. Yay for the Davinci Code!

another expose on RCC secret societies and subversion of Truth!

[Kathryn7]

160. Too bad it attacks all Christian faiths and denies Jesus is God.

[JohnnyBoots]

163. Is that sarcasm or are you just

reminding us of our duty as Americans to believe all that dogma?

[Mondon]

197. Davinci code is

a great read, but historically and theologically about as factual as the Star Wars Trilogy.

[lolly]

215. Kinda like the Bible, huh?

Sorry, but you can't denounce one fiction based on another.

[Mondon]

233. Huh?

I wasn't talking about the Bible, but about the DaVinci Code. Do you think the DaVinci Code is factual?

[dArKeR]

141. Don't speak out againt the "Child Whores" in every Catholic country

in Asia and South America. The "Child Whores" probably have serviced so many priests that the priest would never stop this practice. Okay, I'll give you the "Child Whores" but what about the children of the Parish who the priests are molesting. The adults who go to priests for emotional adivce and end up being raped by priests.

[UCLA Dem]

143. At least he's old and hopefully won't be there long enough to wreak havoc.

[BadNews]

180. Could be lucid for 20 years with modern medicine NT/

[dArKeR]

146. Just like appointing a murderer, Wolfowitz to WB, and Bolton to UN

It's corruption. It seems like the same people control everything in the world.

[billyf65]

147. Problem with Bush tie

Benedict XVI (nee Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger)has also argued the supremecy of the Catholic church.

That doesn't exactly mesh with being a born again.

Ratzinger also reneged on the whole "denying communion" thing, telling bishops it was at their discretion (and prompting at least one right wing commentator to call it a "Kerry-like flip flop.")

I've written it before and I'll write it again. Calling the pope a nazi is exactly what gets web boards like this mentioned (negatively) in the NYTimes and elsewhere.

Suggesting an American priest will now tell his parishoners that condoms cause HIV, thus causing them to go out and screw indiscriminately and kill you is asinine tinfoil hat material.

Other than invading your airwaves on his deathbed, JPII probably had precious little effect on your day-to-day lives. BenXVI isn't likely to have much more effect (even if you're a practicing Catholic - other than noting the change, after nearly three decades, of hearing "...our Pope John Paul, our bishop blah blah blah..." at mass.

Everything isn't about American politics.

And by the way - in the US, the Iraq war and most application of the Death Penalty do not meet the aforementioned standards. No criminal is so dangerous he can't simply be put in a supermax. And Iraq was not a war to defend us.

[Merope215]

151. This sucks.

I'm a Catholic and I can't stand this guy already...this just makes it worse. I really feel like he was responsible for most of JPII's reprehensible announcements in his later years, but Pope Ratzy also has an evil face. He looks like he'd as soon eat your child as smile at you.

This is really upsetting. We definitely need to start enforcing the laws against churches making political statements and revoke their tax-exempt status if they don't cut it the hell out. I'm a mix of angry, sad, and disappointed.

[Botany]

153. Pope Benny the Rat

Interfered with a US election
Helped hide pedophiles in the church
Has a Nazi history

Great .... just fuckin' great.

[WearyOne]

158. "Papa Ratzi "....do the Catholic Bishops in the US have a big influence

on their flock..as in telling them how to vote etc ??

[Megahurtz]

165. So did the Bush Klan

have anything to do with getting this new Pope in there?
Stranger things have happened.
I would not be surprised at all.

What the fuck is this world coming to?

[RedCloud]

166. You can't trust a rat singer.

Just ask any cat.

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

174. so can we criticize this SOB now?

or will people still tell us he's off limits and that speaking ill of him in any way, shape, or form makes you a religious bigot?

[Southsideirish]

179. No, not yet!! Lets give him a "honeymoon" of 5 -10 years, first, OK?

[janx]

175. This is sickening. n/t

[geek tragedy]

184. Take away the ROMAN Catholic church's tax exemption.

Now, if AMERICAN Catholics want to tell the papists to go straight to hell and start their own sane church, they should get a tax exemption.

[KansDem]

185. Remember when JF Kennedy was running for President...

...as a Roman Catholic, how many Americans were upset that he would be taking orders from the Vatican and not the American people?

Well, looks like Pope Ratz has done for Bush what the anti-JFK crowd wanted to do 45 years ago, but then, Bush has to take his orders from someone, doesn't he?

[Seabiscuit]

187. That was no "intervention". It was an *interference* in our politics.

Pope Ratzo Rizzo has also claimed that any American who votes for a politician who "supports abortion" (neo-con code language for respecting the law of the land set forth in Roe vs. Wade) is a "sinner".

That's a direct interference in our political system - trying to influence the Catholic vote through intimidation and religious condemnation.

He condemns homosexuals, gay marriage, womens' rights, "liberalism" (with the same fervor he condemns "Marxism" and "atheism" as "sects or ideologies"), abortion, birth control, stem cell research, genetic research in general, and euthenasia (mercy killing) - which he seemed to deliberately confuse with the Terri Schiavo case.

He has a set of values which is walking backwards. His papacy will undoubtedly precipitate the largest exodus of parishoners from the Catholic Church in history.

What a bastard. This creep makes me want to :puke:

[BadNews]

200. If Catholics were as liberal as we would like to believe.....

there would have been a mass exodus years ago. Catholicism has tenants that fit both of our parties. That is why Catholics are so torn. Many believe homosexuality, euthanasia, and abortion are sins while believing pre-emptive wars and capital punishment are institutionally wrong. It is not easy to simply choose to be part of either major American party.

Many other Christians find themselves in a similar dilemma.

Now then, if you do not believe in or follow the tenants of your faith, that is a completely different situation. Why then would you claim membership in that organization.

[Seabiscuit]

211. There HAS been a mass exodus over the past few years, and I was part

of that mass exodus. It started with the exposure of the extent of the priesthood's sexual abuse of children and the church's systematic cover-up of same.

Prior to that I had for decades been loosely tied to the Catholic Church merely due to upbringing, disapproving of most Catholic dogma, but convinced that I would never allow any dogmatic Catholic leaders at any time in history to prevent me from practicing my version of Catholicism/Christianity, and partaking in Communion if I chose to.

It has been the Vatican's radical turn to the right and radical support of the neo-cons in power in Amerika and radical interference in our electoral process that finally convinced me to reject Catholicism forever.

The fact is, any practicing Catholic who swallows whole the prevailing church dogma of the day is just plain stupid, and unable to think on their own or even have a "conscience" other than the one dictated to them by dogmatic church leaders, and unfortunately, there are just as many stupid Catholics out there in Jesusland as there are stupid fundies.

[AnneD]

189. Opus Dei speaks

This vote guarantees that more Catholics in SA will leave the church to join evangelical Christian churches, that more NA Catholics will continue to resent the church's handling of child sexual abuse, and the Vatican views on women priest and birth control will the church more and more irrelevant.

[dArKeR]

195. SA means South America or South Africa?

[Rainscents]

191. This new Pope is already scaring the hell out of me and I'm not Catholic..

He is very evil man and he will do more harms to womens and childrens. I have no doubt that Bush was involve in getting this man in as Pope. I am pretty sure, Bush and the company paid big time money to get this guy voted in.

[chomskysright]

193. Pope's making me puke.....he was a Nazi punk....stories here

He's 78; maybe he'll croak sooner rather than later. Perhaps we have 10 years to lay into the Catholic church so they don't do this again.

Pope his brother created one long train of excuse making, as per the below. I think the Catholics needs to get a big fat ear of 'whadaryadoin' for this.

“Resistance was truly impossible,” Georg Ratzinger (brother of the pope said as re: pope serving with Nazis).

In contrast, I have a book in my study: "Rescuers: Portraits of moral courage in the Holocaust" (by Gay Block and Malka Drucker):

"When a whole population takes on the status of bystander, the victims are without allies; the criminals, unchecked, are strengthened. ...The whole truth may be that the idea of human passivity is nothing but the illusion of wistful mortals; and that waking into the exigencies of our own time---whichever way we turn, toward or away----implies action. To be born is to be compelled to act."

Pass this to whomever you like.




Papal hopeful is a former Hitler Youth
Justin Sparks, Munich, John Follain and Christopher Morgan, Rome

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2089-1572667,00.html

THE wartime past of a leading German contender to succeed John Paul II may return to haunt him as cardinals begin voting in the Sistine Chapel tomorrow to choose a new leader for 1 billion Catholics. Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, whose strong defence of Catholic orthodoxy has earned him a variety of sobriquets — including “the enforcer”, “the panzer cardinal” and “God’s rottweiler” — is expected to poll around 40 votes in the first ballot as conservatives rally behind him.
Although far short of the requisite two-thirds majority of the 115 votes, this would almost certainly give Ratzinger, 78 yesterday, an early lead in the voting. Liberals have yet to settle on a rival candidate who could come close to his tally. Unknown to many members of the church, however, Ratzinger’s past includes brief membership of the Hitler Youth movement and wartime service with a German army anti- aircraft unit.
The son of a rural Bavarian police officer, Ratzinger was six when Hitler came to power in 1933. His father, also called Joseph, was an anti-Nazi whose attempts to rein in Hitler’s Brown Shirts forced the family to move home several times. In 1937 Ratzinger’s father retired and the family moved to Traunstein, a staunchly Catholic town in Bavaria close to the Führer’s mountain retreat in Berchtesgaden. He joined the Hitler Youth aged 14, shortly after membership was made compulsory in 1941. He quickly won a dispensation on account of his training at a seminary. “Ratzinger was only briefly a member of the Hitler Youth and not an enthusiastic one,” concluded John Allen, his biographer.

Two years later Ratzinger was enrolled in an anti-aircraft unit that protected a BMW factory making aircraft engines. The workforce included slaves from Dachau concentration camp. Ratzinger has insisted he never took part in combat or fired a shot — adding that his gun was not even loaded — because of a badly infected finger. He was sent to Hungary, where he set up tank traps and saw Jews being herded to death camps. He deserted in April 1944 and spent a few weeks in a prisoner of war camp. He has since said that although he was opposed to the Nazi regime, any open resistance would have been futile — comments echoed this weekend by his elder brother Georg, a retired priest ordained along with the cardinal in 1951. “Resistance was truly impossible,” Georg Ratzinger said.

“Before we were conscripted, one of our teachers said we should fight and become heroic Nazis and another told us not to worry as only one soldier in a thousand was killed. But neither of us ever used a rifle against the enemy.” Some locals in Traunstein, like Elizabeth Lohner, 84, whose brother-in-law was sent to Dachau as a conscientious objector, dismiss such suggestions. “It was possible to resist, and those people set an example for others,” she said. “The Ratzingers were young and had made a different choice.”

[chomskysright]

194. pope couldn't 'pull trigger' as young Nazi re: 'badly infected finger'

[Mondon]

196. He wasn't a Nazi, and you know it

If he was a Nazi, then every 18yo German conscript recruited for the regular army during WWII was a Nazi. Not so.

[chomskysright]

208. would you please explain the diff between German soldier & Nazi?

...teasing hairs are we?

I'm curious what you have to say here.

[Mondon]

209. Sure.

A Nazi was a member of a political party: the National Socialist German Workers Party (Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei, commonly called NSDAP or the Nazi Party)

A German soldier was a member of the German Wehrmacht, or armed forces (not to be confused with the Waffen SS, which was the military arm of the Nazi Party).

Many Nazis were soldiers, but not all soldiers were Nazis, any more than all members of the US armed forces are repukes, democrats, libertarians, neocons, etc. Many were career officers, and many were unwilling draftees. Of course, many were Nazis and many more were sympathizers.

A group of Wehrmacht officers actually tried to assassinate Hitler in 1944 and take over the government.

The Nazis were the ruling party in Germany. But that doesn't make all members of the Wehrmacht Nazis any more than the fact that the repukes control the US national government makes all members of the US armed forces repukes.

Hope that helps.

[ClintonTyree]

202. How any thinking American....

can be a member of the catholic church is beyond me. Bob Novak just became a catholic, doesn't that give people a clue about how their religion is leaning?

[katinmn]

205. Organized, institutionalized religion. Patooey!

What's it good for?

Collusion, wars, power grabs, bigotry, greed....

[chomskysright]

207. Ratzi protected child molester: archived link here..

from another DU post:


http://web.archive.org/web/20020607141945/http://abcnews.go.com/sections/2020/DailyNews/2020_Vatican_coverup_020426.html

Priestly Sin, Cover-Up Powerful Cardinal in Vatican Accused of Sexual Abuse Cover-Up
By Brian Ross

April 26 — A trusted ally of Pope John Paul II has been accused of sexually abusing boys a half-century ago at an elite seminary for the Catholic Church.


The accusers say Vatican-based Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, who heads the Vatican office to safeguard the faith and the morals of the church, quietly made the lawsuit go away and shelved it. There was no investigation and the accusers weren't asked a single question or asked for a statement.
He was appointed by the pope to investigate the entire sex abuse scandal in the church in recent days. But when approached by ABCNEWS in Rome last week with questions of allegations against Maciel, Ratzinger became visibly upset and actually slapped this reporter's hand.
"Come to me when the moment is given," Ratzinger told ABCNEWS, "not yet."
"Cardinal Ratzinger is sheltering Maciel, protecting him,"

[Anakin Skywalker]

210. Guess Bush is his god too

[BrklynLiberal]

212. Opus Dei has spoken...as has the BFEE..and they have both said Ratzinger!

This does not portend well for anyone of good spirit and pure heart.

[GOPBasher]

214. Did he deny communion to Catholic Repubs who were for IWR?

You've got to admire the consistency here. He wanted to deny Kerry communion, b/c he supported something the church was against. What about the death penalty? The church is against that, but a Catholic Repub who supports that won't be denied communion. Same for Catholic Repubs who supported the Iraq War, which the church is against. Same for cutting programs for the poor. And a billion other issues. But when it's a Democrat, it's a different story.

[Sugarbleus]

216. Just learned of new Pope, his background, his conservative views

and thought WHOA!!

Not a catholic here but I recognize how much influence the catholic church has on policy here and elsewhere worldwide. I think this new Pope is rather scary. Time will tell how well (or not) he works out..

We watched the funeral for several days. My daughter predicted this man, Ratzinger, would get the nomination. She said she heard others predicting the same thing. Was it a pre set coronation or what??

I watched an interview of a catholic in Italy who said he thought the "Holy Spirit" missed the mark on this one. He wasn't happy with the new Pope at all. I think I heard something on the news stating that Ratzinger's brother wasn't happy about it either...don't remember the whole story.

Peace and Good Will to all my Catholic friends and neighbors :hug:

[davidthegnome]

218. Good God

All of this information about Ratzinger, none of my family or friends were eager to discuss. My circle tends to be very Catholic. He makes John Paul look like a liberal. I'm losing all faith in my own church. The death of John Paul the second... was only the beginning.

Jesus will always be my God, but I no longer have a desire to go to church. I've been lied to my whole life by people who thought they were doing it "for my own good". Damn, how can I be so ashamed of something I was once so proud of?

So... this is the new... "Holy Father"? What a joke! A 78 year old monster, with no integrity, honor, or true moral character. Though, you'll see... the right will make him out to be some sort of "hero". How... how can such scum gain such great power? Why are we ruled by the greatest fools in the world?

I feel like I've just been shot in the gut.... damn. I'm getting really tired of being a Catholic. Father Greeley has always been one of my mentors (through his work), but I'm sure even he is about ready to explode.

Enough. I've had enough of Catholicism all together. The Vatican does not follow the true teachings of Christ.

[katinmn]

223. I went through something similar

as a Lutheran. Our church was so bigoted and hardline that half the congregation left and started a new church. Too bad since together we had funded a brand new house of worship after a fire. Ha.

It's a bummer but when the church doctrines are at odds with your own values, what can you do?

At this point I believe in a higher power but definately am no longer religious.

On the bright side, look how quickly things have turned to the right. There will be a backlash to this and things may right (left) themselves, yet.

[virgdem]

219. Well, isn't that special...

another in a long list of things I don't like about this man. No wonder they call him "God's Rottweiler" How fitting.

[Brianboru]

222. Cardinals elect Catholic Pope. World in Shock

in all honesty, what were you expecting? Someone in the Church’s leadership who was going to pop up out on the balcony of St Peter’s and with a rainbow alb, tell the faithful that everything they’d heard for the past 26 — no, make that 1726 — years was rubbish and that they should all rush out and load up with beer and condoms for a fun weekend?

The pope is relevant for those who believe in the Catholic Church. Their rule are not going to change. Stop wasting bandwidth complaining about a catholic pope.

[sonicx]

229. What does this have to do with the topic?

BTW, your title is a strawman. A very lame one at that.

[cloudythescribbler]

224. this shows why progressives need to start organizing NOW

Progressives need to start organizing NOW for when this pope dies, the "novemdiales" -- the nine day period after the pope's funeral before the conclave meets. Next time it should be a period of worldwide protests. They could be called The Novemdiales Coalition or even, in Latin America, Novemdialistas.
----------------------------------------------------
In an issue of the Justice and Peace Commission newsletter of the (arch?)diocese of SF about 15 years ago, a writer on the role of Catholic faith for Catholic politicians wrote that "clearly" Catholic politicians take take any political stances that they want "except on the issue of abortion, where the Church's position is clear" . Although a pro-choice non-Catholic, I can understand that they have principled objections to abortion. But what is the doctrinal basis of the favored position of abortion over other concerns like absolute poverty politics, or the environment, or peace? They don't make threats like the one above towards Catholic politicians who support warmongering. And while a new order (now a distinct possibility) devoted to opposing abortion rights has been suggested, what about a Catholic order devoted to protecting the environment?

It seems to me that NOW is the time for progressive Catholics and others to organize at the global level, bringing together many of the umbrella groups in Europe with these kinds of concerns of importance to the Third World (the PRIORITIZATION of social justice and the environment etc). Global networking on the web, and organiizations with chapters of progressive Catholics and others seeking in good faith the reform of the Catholic Church all around the world could lay the groundwork for the global chorus of voices calling for a new direction in the Church when the time comes for the next papal selection.

Some suggest that such outspokenness would have a perverse effect. But how much worse could progressives, who remained very quiet, have done?

[HockeyMom]

230. Scream from highest hill top

The Catholic church considers Birth Control Pill ABORTION. Before they start denying prochoice politions communion, I would like to see them ask the congregation, "Are your taking ARTIFICAL BIRTH CONTROL? Sorry, no Communiion if you only have 2 kids." Like that will happen.

They would have nobody at the communion rail.

[Corkey Mineola]

231. Dubious Papacy off to a dubious start

Good catch 94114_San_Francisco!

Ratzinger is so steeped in ideology and politics that the resulting stew is a queer mix of dogma and doggedness.

Already the Vatican is toning down this unpopular selection... leaking stuff about his remarks to cardinals that he expects a short papacy, that his brother is unhappy he got elected because of his fragile health, etc.

It makes you wonder what the College of Cardinals, not unlike the American Electorate, was thinking when they (supposedly) elected this guy? I think he is strong man in the classic sense, knows where lots of bodies are buried, and posed too much of a threat to his peers to NOT get elected.

Pray for a short papacy!
phn1

[uppityperson]

232. That's reason enough for me to not support him.

That did it.

[GOPBasher]

234. The pope took the side of the rich and powerful over the poor and meek.

Very Christian, huh? :eyes: