Raw Story: Liberal radio host expected to rip MoveOn over ad targeting Dem

[Robbien]

By John Byrne

Liberal talk radio host Ed Schultz is expected to rip MoveOn.org this afternoon over a new ad targeting a Democratic congressman, RAW STORY has learned.

A source close to the show told RAW STORY Schultz is upset that the organization would target a "Democratic congressman on a single vote."

MoveOn.org PAC has launched a near six-figure ad buy against the Democrats' number two in the House, Steny Hoyer, saying he failed progressives by not rallying Democrats against the bankruptcy bill. MoveOn says the bill is a giveaway to special interests such as credit card companies.

Schultz, a source close to the program says, is furious that MoveOn has spent money attacking a Democrat.

http://rawstory.com/exclusives/byrne/ed_schultz_move_on_418.htm

Depends on which one you may consider more dangerous, the enemy in the other party or the the enemy within.

[Teaser]

1. Schultz is wrong.

I gave money to moveon just because they did this. And I haven't been too impressed with MoveOn for a while now.

[tx_dem41]

9. So who do you and Moveon have lined up as the viable alternative

to Steny in his Maryland district? Surely you didn't commence an attack before you had one lined up. Politics 101.

[Robbien]

17. So what do you plan on doing if you get in financial straights

and your dear Steny has just sold your soul to the company store? Since you are being sold down the river, it is a slap in the face that it was not the other party who was the one who cashed in on your entry into debt slavery.

[tx_dem41]

20. Sigh....reckless attacks based on knee-jerk emotion

should be carefully thought out before making them. That's what leaders do. Aren't we supposed to be leaders?

Hey, maybe Moveon actually has this figured out. I'm just trying to find out if anyone else on the board might have this figured out as well, or whether it's just the rant-of-the-week that ends where we started.

[Robbien]

23. Fine, we disagree. You are willing to have corporate interest politicians

in charge just as long as they have a D after their name. I am not of that opinion.

[tx_dem41]

28. Lovely example of putting words in someone's mouth.

Sheesh....I guess its the rant-of-the-week option. Forget about being constructive and winning elections. Ranting recklessly is just so much more fun.

We need to be smart and informed, organized and constructive. We need to make decisions in the proper context, that context always being how do we retain the seats we have AND gain more seats. So far, no one supporting Moveon's statement has the slightest idea if Moveon has a well-thought endgame. When I read the OP, I first thought..."Steny has it coming to him". Then, the context kicked in. Is someone lined up that is a viable alternative? Until someone can tell me that, I'm not supporting this statement.

[Eloriel]

146. Oh, don't be silly. The 2006 election is an eternity away.

You're acting like MoveOn's actions will put him out of Congress. Nothing could be further from the truth, and if MoveOn succeeds in waking him the hell UP by rattling his cage a bit, well that's just more betta, isn't it?

And btw, this wasn't Steny's only sin. He's solidly backed by corporate interests/lobbyists who are responsible for all of our voting machine problems. I will never forgive him for that since he has REPEATEDLY stepped in the way of meaningful reform of the havoc he helped wreak. Senator Dodd's in about the same boat.

So Steny can go to hell and stay there for all I care.

[tx_dem41]

154. And, I will never forgive Moveon for not...

...fighting for the Bankruptcy Bill when it counted. They turned their backs on the very people who keep them alive. Who is going to wake them up?

[bvar22]

163. And I will never forgive Jesus

for waiting until He was thirty to condemn the hypocrites.
If HE was REALLY our Savior, he would have been condemning the hypocrites when HE was 25!!!!

Logical Fallacy tx_dem41.
But a neat one. Actually a combination of 2 Logical Fallacies.
Poisoning the Well with a Red Herring (nice!)

[tx_dem41]

165. Its nice to know that MoveOn can "see the light" in a matter..

of two weeks. Or is it just political convenience they're seeing?

Oh well, you have more faith than I! Of course, I'm faithless, so it's not that hard to do.

[LittleClarkie]

125. Does one vote a corporate interest politician make?

Perhaps it's just a Dem who happens to disagree with another Dem?

Imagine that. Democracy sucks sometimes doesn't it?

Would you get rid of Reid as well, considering he was fairly crowing about his support of the bill, his strength as Minority Leader not withstanding?

[pokercat999]

160. Any dino that voted for the Bankruptcy Bill should

change parties.....now. Lets find and elect REAL Democrats, might as well start with a clean slate and let the pols PROVE THEMSELVES.


Off Topic:

Want to lessen or eliminate career politicians? Do away with pensions for congress.

[LittleClarkie]

162. See that you do

There just better not be a real Republican butt in that seat when you're done, that's all I gotta say.

Why does it seem that every vote is the "defining vote" for someone. Unity my Aunt Fanny. What really does define a Dem? Where is the line? It appears to be different for everyone.

We need to do some navel gazing I think.

[CAcyclist]

170. Why do you want to do away with congressional pensions ?

Do you not realize that this is a Republican talking point?

[lala_rawraw]

27. I tend to think...

That in the firestorm brewing about Delay, Bolton, and so much else. Moveon could better spend the money helping to keep that momentum going instead of using the money to go after the number 2 Dem.

You don't want to give the far right something to work with right now when they are so falling apart.

That said, I am not sure if he could have forced 70 Dems to vote in any particular way. You have to remember that many of these Dem leaders have held the same views for several years, even under Clinton.

I think that MoveOn is way off target on this one and this is absolutely bad judgment given that the right has so much to expose.

[Robbien]

40. But there are stories in the news about the GOP chipping away

at the Dems filibuster stance. If this means the GOP is starting to get to some of the corporate interest Dems, then this move by Moveon is a very much needed line of attack.

[Vincardog]

73. Damn right. If they want to vote in the Corporation's interests

over the interests of the PEOPLE. Let them admit they are ReThuglicans. Winning elections does not require us to abandon our principals. We need strong clear leadership for the people. FK the centrists. We have to have clear loud leadership on the left.

[pnutchuck]

68. I think that the Bankruptcy bill has far reaching damage potential

In listening to an economist explain it, I quickly began to fear all of its implications. For starters, the number of uninsured Americans is increasing as is the cost of prescription medicines. The rise of fuel prices is forcing many Americans to forgo car insurance. The living wage is stagnant while the cost of living increases.

All of these add up to a recipe for bankruptcy. And yet, the aforementioned Americans who are unfortunate enough to land in the hospital with no possible solution to ending their financial burden other than bankruptcy will be the ones who truly suffer from these laws.

The CEO's and other corporate big wigs will have the advantage of safe havens and asset protection. There will be the luxury of safety nets for these elitist. And John Q American will be left homeless, penniless, and creditless with no hope of starting over.

[lala_rawraw]

74. I agree with you

This bill will pretty much create no outlet for me and my medical bills. That said, they should have picked a better time. In a 15 second attention span world, the pressure must stay on Delay... the focus to shift on a Democrat right now is a bad strategy, especially during Pope TV. Timing is the question for me. This looks, in my eyes, to be a bad move.

[pnutchuck]

78. I signed a lot of anti Bankruptcy petitions before the bill was passed

perhaps MoveOn didn't pick that battle because there were so many others putting pressure on the Dems to stop it. And perhaps the reason they decided to call it out now was because the pressure from the other organizations failed.

I don't think that attacking MoveOn is such a good idea because we absolutely need to hold our reps accountable. Whether or not they jumped in the fight before or after is irrelevant, the fact is the Dems have betrayed us. Calling MoveOn Johnny-come-lately's only splinters us and takes away from the truth of what the Dems have done to us.

edit: clarity

[lala_rawraw]

85. I am not attacking them...

I am saying it was a bad move and while yes, all reps should be held accountable, one does not learn to swim when one is drowning. That is my point.

[pnutchuck]

94. I wasn't saying that you were attacking them

but that WE were attacking them in general. I only used that word in reference to some of the other posters as well as Big Eddy. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

However, I think that's precisely when we should learn to swim, when we are drowning. ;-)

[lala_rawraw]

149. Well

Then that is how people drown. You learn to swim, then you go in to the water. Right now, the Dems are facing something they cannot figure out how to react to, namely, a NeoCon regime, which is attempting to install a king. The Dems are trying to re-group and find their footing, while at the same time some of them are still trying to go about biz as usual. Do I agree with what some Dems are doing? No. But at this point, every possible group at center and left must stick together. If we are face to face we cannot stand shoulder to shoulder.

Right now the weakness or rather the opening has been made available to show Delay and his buddies for what they are. Right now is not a good time to switch in another direction and away from focal point: DELAY. I cannot explain this anymore clearly than I already have. It is simply that MoveOn, if they were playing chess, gave up strategy for one tactic.

[tx_dem41]

92. Yes, we already have enough splintering in the story already. n/t

[sendero]

111. I disagree..

.... at some point in time we have to admit this to ourselves. How did Bush** get so much toxic legislation passed? He did it with the help of TRAITOROUS Dems.

There is a time for voting your conscience and a time for party unity. If these DINOs would stand with the party, a lot of Bush**s agenda could have been stopped in its tracks.

Who hurts you more, an enemy or a friend who helps your enemy?

We need to vote a few of these traitors out of office. You say "well, at least its better than having a Rep in there". Is it? Really? Because congresspersons who bend over and lube it up every time Bush** walks by aren't Dems, these are fucking traitorous quislings. Fuck them.

[tx_dem41]

117. Would the Republican that you think would be "better than" Hoyer in office

have the following voting record on issues that many Democrats hold dear: 100% scores from NARAL and Planned Parenthood, 100% from Human Rights Campaign, 100% from the Sierra Club, 100% from NEA, 100% for the Children's Defense Fund, 100% from AFL-CIO, UAW, SEIU, and AFSCME, 0% from the American Conservative Union, and 0-10% from the conservative anti-tax groups.

Apparently, many of these issues mean very little or nothing to some members of the forum. I know that most of these issues are what make me a Democrat. They separate my principles from the Republicans. And they are why I would never, EVER say that a Republican's voting record is "better than" this voting record.

[sendero]

147. Basically.....

.... when the vote they cast is usually symbolic in the face of 100% Republican opposition, excuse me if I don't give a shit about some stupid ineffective vote.

I stand by my point, which is:

I'd rather have a stated enemy than a so-called friend who helps my enemies. and

There is NO CONSEQUENCE at the present time for voting for your corporate money, and there needs to be one. Only Dems can enforce such a consequence.

I'm not saying that I want a Rep so much as I'm saying that I want these FAKE ASS "Dem" TRAITORS OUT OF A FUCKING CONGRESSIONAL JOB.

I'd prefer to replace them with better Dems but failing that, maybe if a couple fell the rest would realize that WE EXPECT SOMETHING FOR OUR DOLLARS AND OUR TIME, WE EXPECT STINKING ODIOUS INDEFENSIBLE BILLS LIKE THE BANKRUPTCY BILL TO AT LEAST GET VOTED AGAINST BY EVERY DEM.

[tx_dem41]

155. I have a feeling that at some point in time...

every Democratic politician votes the "wrong way" on some issue and becomes a "Fake Ass Traitor" to you and to others. I've learned long ago that I can never ever find someone who will agree with me 100% of the time. As a result, life becomes more complicated because I have to start some pretty hefty analysis around election time as to keep someone in office.

[MollyStark]

86. Md has lots of democrats

I am sure finding an alternative to Hoyer would be no great hardship.

[tx_dem41]

93. They also have a Republican Governor and Lt. Governor that won..

...statewide office last time around.

[Teaser]

76. Rollo Tomasi.

Excellent record, and well liked.

*grin*

[tx_dem41]

77. Record at doing what?

I googled the name I came up with 0 hits! Do you have the spelling right? Who is he?

[BadNews]

107. LA Confidential

That was a great reference to one of the best movies ever made. He is Rollo Tomasi.

[Montauk6]

167. I always thought "Rollo" was a cool name, ever since Sanford & Son

[never_get_over_it]

87. I doubt there would be too much trouble

finding a Democrat to run in Hoyer's district and given that it is Maryland - any Dem would most likely have the upper hand. I'm not sure I agree with moveon about this - but I was shocked and pissed that Hoyer voted the way he did.

[tx_dem41]

95. Has anyone asked Rep. Hoyer why he voted the way he did?

Also, Dems lost the Governor and Lt. Governor races last time around (I think for the first time ever). Retiring Senator Sarbane's seat is "in play" with many thinking the Lt. Governor could win. Don't take MD for granted.

[Eloriel]

148. Don't take MD for granted esp. with the voting machines

a monster which Steny Hoyer helped create, and continues to help maintain.

[Morose]

100. Moveon isn't advocating voting for the Republican party

They are sending up a strong warning to Democrats that they need to be true to progressive values.

The two are not necessary equivalent. I'm concerned that Ed and his supporters have become so enthralled with the idea of attacking the Repugs that they have forgotten we have to hold our own accountable. otherwise what's the point of winning?

I belive the guy from Moveon even said he'd vote for Hoyer. Sadly he wasn't all that articulate in stating that Moveon was Criticizing Hoyer's Vote...in order to pressure him to shift...not that they were Campaigning against him in support of the republicans. But Ed would mislead you into thinking that. And it simply isn't what they did or said.

[tx_dem41]

102. Thank you for your response. I wish I could have heard the spokesperson..

...from Moveon. I would ask them, if they felt so passionately over the Bankruptcy Bill to send a "strong warning to Democrats to be true to progressive values", then why did they sit out the Bankruptcy Bill fight when it was in committee and on the floor. Perhaps it is Moveon that also needs to be sent a strong warning since they appear to be lacking in the progressive values department as well.

[GettysbergII]

129. I stopped supporting Moveon.comm too but I agree with this latest stand..

...very strongly and I might toss a few coins their way again, too. One thing is certain though, any Democrat that did not vote Nay is on my permanent shitlist in indelible ink. and that includes the non-voting Hillary Clinton.

[tx_dem41]

131. What do you mean by "permanent shitlist"?

You would never vote for them again? You would vote for someone in the primary against them? You would vote for someone in the General Election against them?

On what other issues do you feel this way about?

[GettysbergII]

177. Right I would never vote for them again period.

Perhaps I'd give Hillary one last chance if Bill was having his operation on exactly the day of the vote. Otherwise I have zero tolerance for any politician that supported the banks and other corporate interests over the interests of the vast majority of Americans in the Debt Slave bill.

Other 'issues':

I'm a veteran Chicago Public School teacher at a 90% poverty, 100% minority elementary school that does its job well. Any Democrat that does not openly intend to repeal the NCLB Act can kiss my ass.

I'm a parent of two children 16 and 11. Any Democrat that does not come out with a schedule to get out of Iraq can kiss my ass.

I also have a mother and a wife. So any Democrat that doesn't sopport "socialized" health care can kiss my ass.

I'm a community organizer that is aware that world oil production is in the process of peaking which means the shit is going to hit the fan soon and we must focus on developing alternative energy sources, stronger community based economies, and a simpler lifestyle. Any Democrat that doesn't make those goals priorities can kiss my ass.

I'm sick of hearing the word privatization. Any Democrat that wants to privatize anything can kiss my ass.

I'm an election protection worker. On 1-6-05 I was on the Capitol lawn in Washington DC when Boxer cast her vote. Any Democrat that doesn't demand a simple, transparent, and verifiable voting system can kiss my ass.

Other than that I'm pretty flexible. It's going to get worse before it gets better. I've already come to grips with the fact that the wheels are coming off the growth economy cart as cheap energy gets harder and harder to come by. I doubt I'll ever see my pension or if I do, after inflation, my pension check might buy me a cup of coffee or so. But I will live to help reinvent American as a genuine for the people, by the people, of the people democracy with a sane environmentally conscious economic system and see my children and my children's childrens florishing in it.

[LittleClarkie]

139. I'm happy to say that I disagree

if being with her husband during his surgery puts Hillary on your permanent shitlist, then I am very proud to say that I am of a different opinion.

[tx_dem41]

143. I missed the comment on the "non-voting" Hillary Clinton.

She voted to maintain cloture on the important previous vote

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=109&session=1&vote=00029

(remember that was the vote we all agree was the "important" vote, the one that counted..the one where Lieberman didn't vote to maintain cloture and then voted meaninglessly against the overall bill in the second vote). I guess according to your logic, Lieberman's okay.

That said, Bill Clinton was having serious surgery that day. If you want to put her on her shitlist for the transgression of caring for a loved one, you better make that a loooooonnnngggg shitlist.

[GettysbergII]

178. Lieberman can kiss my ass whether he voted for cloture or not

My shit list is very, very long. Hillary and almost all Democrats voted for the NCLB Act, the Patriot Act, and the authorization and continued support of the Iraq War. I'm not real happy with many Democrats right now.

As to 'we all agree' the cloture vote was the important one, I don't remember agreeing to any such thing. Nor do I recall anybody I work with feeling that way either.

[dragon695]

181. Jeeze man, have you no heart?

Would you allow your partner go through surgery (however minor) and wake up without you at his/her side just so you could vote against a bill that was going to pass with or with out you? I'm sure that if there was any chance that her vote would affect the outcome, she'd be there, but it was quite evident to even non-senators that we didn't have the votes. It isn't like it's only five minutes from Capitol Hill to NYC. Despite what the MSM and the right wing would have you believe, they still care deeply for each other. I would expect nothing less from her then to miss that vote to be with Bill. Mike Malloy gave her a pass and so will I.

[Pachamama]

161. Funny, that's how I've been feeling lately too...When I got the msg from

MoveOn that they wanted to do this ad campaign against Steny Hoyer, I actually found myself giving MoveOn money for the first time since before the election. My reason was very simple: I believe the Democratic Party needs to stand for its principles. Without that, they are nothing but Republican lite. Steny Hoyer (I'm originally from Maryland) is a relic of the Dem Party - and its past. If the Dem Party is ever going to have any chance, its got to stick to its principles and take on the party that "calls" itself the GOP - what it really is a party that has been taken over by the PNAC Neo-cons who are pandering to the Religious Extremists in this country. Steny Hoyer screwed up and he can make all the excuses in the world, it doesn't make it right.

Ed Schultz is entitled to his opinion, but I disagree with him. Also, MoveOn is proving a very important point too - MoveOn is not a mouthpiece or arm of the DNC. And if there is EVER a time for the Dems to be reminded of the principles and for keeping to it, its now, not in 2006 or 2008 before an election. Dem Party needs to remind Americans of its principles and why its RIGHT & show Americans why the current GOP is wrong for them. The Dems don't show Americans that they are right for them by approving that hideous bankruptcy bill. Steny Hoyer is wrong on this issue and as far as I'm concerned can go as well as any Dem who is not standing by principles.

[Pacifist Patriot]

2. Well, they are an issue organization and not an arm of the DNC.

Aren't exactly required to demonstrate 100% party loyalty regardless of individual actions. Damn, I find that kind of refreshing.

I think you're right.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

3. Hoyer needs to answer for that vote...

and his lack of actions leading up to it. Others do as well.

[JI7]

4. did Moveon ever explain why they raised money for Robert Bryd

AFTER he voted for the bankruptcy bill ? yet they go after Steny Hoyer for voting for doing the same thing .

[dragon695]

180. Give him a pass

Sorry,

But for being the #1 outspoken opponent of the war in the senate and for being true blue in so many other areas, I'm willing to give him a pass on this one.

[LittleClarkie]

182. But by most accounts Hoyer is also true blue in many ways

Double standard.

[dragon695]

183. It isn't a double standard

I've not advocated for this "scorched earth" policy against Hoyer or any other democrat for that matter (Zig-Zag Zell excluded). I was only trying to stand up for Senator Byrd, who I respect deeply. I don't have an opinion of Hoyer, but I do think that now is not the time to cut off our noses to spite our face. I really don't want to hijack this thread, but...

Lookit, I'm gay, I live in the deep south, and I've experinced things which no human being should have to. I can assure you that I'm extremely liberal, I've just seen too much hate from the religious right for me not to be. I say this only to ward off any knee-jerk "he's a centrist" accusations for what I'm about to say.

That being said, my life experinces have left me with more then a grain of pragmatism and a somewhat jaded outlook. It's one thing to run advocacy ads urging people to encourage Hoyer to vote a certain way. It's quite another thing to give aid and comfort to the enemy by "turning off" potential voters, keeping them from voting at all. I do not want to see our party stoop to the underhanded, uncivil, and unscroupulous politics which is plaguing the current Republican party. I also think we should welcome anyone into our party as long as they:
- agree with at least a couple of our main platform issues
- aren't bigots
- are consistant (i.e. pro-life means for all, not just featuses)

I think it is unrealistic to think, although I wish it were so, that we could get a Paul Wellstone elected anywhere in the country. If I had a wish, I'd wish that we'd have an FDR in the whitehouse and a Paul Wellstone from every district, but lets be a little realistic. Also, I don't want to have "just" a simple majority in either house. I want our party to have a "Super" majority, so we can legislate effectively.

As far as I'm concerned, Moveon is free to do what they want to. I would only urge that careful thought be given to what the full ramifications of their actions will be. We need to be the most effective with the least amount of collateral damage. I would stress that it is important that we not send a message to voters so they think "Why bother? Both parties are just the same", which is obviously not true. If you fail to unseat an encumbant in the primary, you might have just weakened him enough to loose the general election. I also think we need to be realistic about finances. If we are going to try to rid our party of corporate contributions, then we need to realize that we won't have the resources to run unknown candidates everywhere at once. This means, careful consideration should be given before we knock out solid incumbents in primary races (especially in states which boarder or are south of the Mason-Dixon line, like Maryland). Whether you like it or not, the odds favor the incumbant in the re-election, all other things being equal.

Just my 2 cents, you feel free to disagree.

[matcom]

5. tough shit Schultz

he was wrong and i'm GLAD they are calling him out on the carpet.

[tx_dem41]

6. It would be stupid to attack a sitting Democrat if you don't have a

VIABLE plan B. Since I don't know whether there is a plan B in Hoyer's Maryland district, I'll just say that I hope Moveon has been responsible and located a viable alternative before commencing this attack.

[Pacifist Patriot]

8. Excellent point.

[Robbien]

13. Since it appears the Dems will not take Hoyer to task over his

betrayal to the American people, what's to stop Hoyer from consistently urging Democrats to vote for corporate interests?

What's more important, keeping Hoyer in that seat or stopping the corporates from completely raiding the pockets of the American public?

[tx_dem41]

18. That's not the choice given by such an attack....

...unless Moveon was smart and did their homework and has a VIABLE candidate to run against Hoyer, beat him in the primary, AND win the general election. Without that, then the choice being provided by such an attack is keeping Hoyer in office or handing it over to a Republican.

And, before you say that Hoyer is no better than a Republican, please go to www.vote-smart.org and check his voting record and compare it to a typical Republican.

Homework, people, has to be done before launching such an attack or supporting it. Politics 101. It's what we're bad at.

[Robbien]

22. There will be many many orporate interest bills coming up

before the next election. The GOP plan is to ram as many through as possible in the next eighteen months. With Hoyer controlling the Democratic votes, every single bill will be decided against the people and for corporate interests unless someone takes Hoyer to task. With corporates holding all the rights, by the time 2006 rolls around, everyone will be too busy keeping food on the table to much care about any Diebold election.

[tx_dem41]

25. Sounds like you have the cynicism talking points well lined up.

Why do you bother to care, given all that cynicism?

One can make such attacks as you describe without making them recklessly.

[Robbien]

30. First you snear

and say my points are "knee jerk" reactions and now you are snearing "cynicism".

I find one always uses the attack method of ridiculing when they cannot defend their position.

[tx_dem41]

32. Moveon's actions are "knee jerk" if they don't have the endgame...

thought out? How would you describe making a six-figure ad buy using precious funds to attack a party leader without even having the endgame planned out?!? It's like invading Iraq and not knowing what you're going to do when the "mission's accomplished". And, here I was thinking we were against such recklessness!?!

[Robbien]

36. Dems have gotten away with voting for corporate interests

because there has been no negative consequences attached to their vote. I see this as Moveon starting a campaign to make them see there are negative consequences. If that is their end game, then IMHO it is money well spent.

[tx_dem41]

39. Yes, in this case the negative consequences could very well be...

another Republican seat, if Moveon hasn't done their homework. How do you feel about the fact that Moveon as an organization stayed out of the Bankruptcy Bill fight when it mattered claiming that they had to pick their battles? Interesting that the battle they have finally chosen to pick is one that endangers a Democratic seat. Very interesting. Maybe they're the corporate shills, since we like to throw that term around.

[Robbien]

51. I do not know Moveon's motive

but what I am hoping is that this is the opening shot at seeing who controls the Democratic party. If the vote on this bankruptcy bill goes by without action, then the filibuster and SS and the energy bill are next.

[tx_dem41]

52. Yes, let's hope that Moveon actually decides to play a part in ...

those important battles. Too bad, that the Bankruptcy Bill wasn't important to them.

[pennylane100]

45. Move-on is not an arm of the democratic party

and these are not party funds.

They let their members rate the issues that are most important and then act on them. If they are funding this ad its because their members have stated that this is a concern.

As a member of Move-on, I totally agree with them and if it helps to stop democratic politicians acting like republicans, I think it is money well spent.

[tx_dem41]

47. Since you're a member of Moveon, and it appears the members..

choose these battles and you agree with it, you're the perfect person to ask....Who is the viable Democratic alternative candidate that you have identified to run against Hoyer in the primary before commencing this attack ad? How much money have you lined up for funding this candidate? As I remember this district is in the Balt/Wash media area, so advertising is expensive. I would hope that you have at the very least 3-5 million committed at this point. I'm interested because I am very interested to retaining this seat for my party.

[Eloriel]

152. Stop the Johnny One- Note routine

You're way off base. There is so much time between now and the next election that it's not worth bothering about, let alone railing against the ad buy based on it, as you've been doing. Your argument is specious on its face. Drop it. MoveOn is NOT running election ads against him.

[tx_dem41]

50. Also, since you are a member, and the members choose what is most..

important to them (as you said). I have one more question. Why did you, as members, choose to sit out the Bankruptcy Bill fight? Was it just not important enough to you, the members? If it wasn't can you list some issues that were more important?

You see, the ironic thing to me is that Moveon is criticizing Hoyer for "picking his battles" when they (Moveon) did the exact same thing on the exact same issue. Very ironic, indeed.

[Sterling]

123. Where is the end game for corpo dems?

I think I would rather have no end game than what I expect they are up to. The end game of the DLC/Dino's seems to be the elimination of the middle class and destruction of progressive values.

[tx_dem41]

128. I can't answer for "corpo dems" since I am not one.

You will have to ask them for the answer. I ask you to ask the same question to an organization that I used to be a contributor to, Moveon. I gave up on them when they did precisely what they now accuse Steny Hoyer of doing. And, that is deciding that the Bankruptcy Bill was not important enough to fight for when the fighting was necessary, when it was in committee and on the floor. But, they betrayed their principles much like many of you think Rep. Hoyer did. Do I think that Rep. Hoyer was wrong in voting for the bill? Of course I do. Am I more mad at the minority leader of our party for not pushing this bill? You bet. Why you are giving her a pass, I have no idea. But, do I save my biggest condemnation for an organization (mind you, an organization that has true power backed by immediate money and actions from the people) that chose not to fight and then at their convenience when the real fight is over, decides to hypocritically pick one? You bet. Its disingenuity at its ugliest, and I'm surprised the majority of the thread is giving them a pass on it.

[bvar22]

132. That doesn't really smell right.

Are you saying that MoveOn's criticism of Hoyer's vote is not valid because they should have criticized him earlier?

I don't think so. Wrong is Wrong.
MoveOn is pointing out something that is WRONG and needs to be fixxed.
This criticism is Valid and Righteous TODAY even if they didn't point it out yesterday.

One can only do so much in a given day. I'm sure lots of EVIL slid by MoveOn while they were busy with something else. That doesn't disqualify their opinion or invalidate the righteousness of their work. (or anyone's work).

I was tired yesterday and let lots of EVIL slide by, but I'll be back in action tomorrow. Lots of EVIL, so little time.

[tx_dem41]

135. No, I'm saying that MoveOn didn't fight the bill when it was in the

committee or on the floor because they stated that they had to pick their battles. My disgust with them started weeks and weeks ago long before anyone knew how Hoyer was going to vote. They turned their backs on an issue that most on this forum obviously hold dearly, me included. Addressing those people, why are you giving them a pass. I'm done with them until they can prove themselves to have some spine again.

Oh, and I don't see EVIL in anything.

[bvar22]

145. Ahhh.

You do know that MoveOn is a private organization which is accountable to its organizers and, to a lesser extent, its contributors. This is America, and MoveOn can decide for itself What they want to do and When they want to do it without consulting you. As a contributer, did you contact MoveOn and make your wishes known ? You could contact a representative of MoneOn and express your grievance, but they are under no obligation to listen or to accept your call.

This is UNLIKE the US Government which is accountable to ALL of us. The right to express our grievances and be heard is guaranteed by our Constitution.

The people of MoveOn have a grievance. I share their grievance. I support the collective expression of this grievance in the manner MoveOn has chosen to express it.

I seriously doubt that ANY campaign by MoveOn to influence the VOTE of a Congressman who has already been bought by Credit Card money would have had ANY effect what-so-ever. I can hear the laughter from the smoky back rooms now as the CorpoPuppets tuck away their checks in their coat pockets.....
"OOOOOO I'm soooo scared! MoveOn thinks I should vote against you! HaHaHaHaHAHahahah Good one, Steny ...Hahahahah".


If nothing changes, nothing changes.
It is time to try something different.
MoveOn may get a little more BANG for their BUCK this way.
Roaches hate bright light.
Corrupt Dems no longer get an automatic pass when selling out America for a few CorpoBucks.



When the RICH and POWERFUL prey upon the WEAK and DISADVANTAGED, I see EVIL.
You should read some Scott Peck.

[tx_dem41]

156. I'm confused. You are defending MoveOn for not fighting for the ..

...Bankruptcy bill because of the following: "I seriously doubt that ANY campaign by MoveOn to influence the VOTE of a Congressman who has already been bought by Credit Card money would have had ANY effect what-so-ever."

Yet, now that they are doing that exact thing with Rep. Hoyer you are for it??? So are you FOR or AGAINST it?

And, yes, I am fully aware of the organizational and operational structure of MoveOn. And, yes, I did complain. And, yes, I have a right to complain about their blatant hypocrisy. I see them as no different than Rep. Hoyer on this issue. They both made a choice that this bill wasn't important to expend any political capital on.

[Zhade]

106. Robbien is being realistic, not cynical.

This thread is interesting. You raise good points, then snarl "talking points!" when Robbien points out how not taking Hoyer to task over his vote could result in an ever-increasing corporate screwing of the little guy and gal.

You DO want to hold this guy and other corporatist Dems accountable, right? Why do you dismiss Robbien's very salient points?

[tx_dem41]

110. Thanks for giving me the chance to re-read what Robbien...

wrote in that post. I mis-read what he wrote about his supposition. I didn't read it as a supposition, but as a statement of present fact. For that, I was wrong. Oy vey and mea culpa.

[Zhade]

153. Hey, it's all good! You made a mistake, we all do that.

Your willingness to own up to it makes you okay in my book. :)

[tx_dem41]

112. I mis-read exactly what you said in this post...

so I apologize for the "cynicism" charge. Mea culpa.

[pnutchuck]

71. Maybe this is a silly question, but is MoveOn.org a political organization

with candidate selection abilities?

[AlGore-08.com]

168. No, only MoveOn and MoveOnPAC are not Dem party organizations

They are an issue advocacy group which tends to side with the Democrats most of the time, like The Sierra Club, The Human Rights Campaign, the NAACP and countless others. None of these groups are under any obligation to support Dem candidates or pols if their members decide not to.

That is their power - - the power to endorse somebody else, or to publicly complain about somebody's poor performance. The 2004 election cycle was unusual in that most of these groups were willing to put defeating Bush above trying to influence the platform and agenda. And they probably wouldn't have done so, if a majority of their members had not been supportive of that position.

[LittleClarkie]

140. There's a difference between taking him to task and acively campaigning

against him. There is not just one extreme or the other. Vote the bastard out. But, as I've said before, there damn well better be a DEMOCRAT butt in that seat when all is said and done.

[PassingFair]

54. I am sure that SOMEWHERE in the state of Maryland...

there exists a candidate that will be a better Democrat than Hoyer. Aren't you?

[tx_dem41]

66. Two things....Hoyer is not a Senator, so narrow your field-of-view...

...second and more important point, a better Democrat that can win the seat as Hoyer has about 15 straight times. That's the key.

[confludemocrat]

69. Ok, so just swallow it and wring our hands

This is a leader of the party. He cannot do this without consequence, he needs to know. If it's a district liberal enough to reelect the guy multiple times, if he dies, then surely they wil find someone and there are lots of districts like that. Let's just say he died, in a manner of speaking, when he voted as he did.

[tx_dem41]

75. No, don't swallow it and wring your hands....

that's what Moveon did when they bowed out of the "real" Bankruptcy Bill fight...when it was in committee and on the floor (I'm amazed that few of the ideologically pure have any problem with that!).

I haven't said that he should not be criticized for his stance (although I have no idea why Minority Leader Pelosi has received no such criticism since it was her decision not to go to the mats on this...as the Whip, Hoyer is just the muscle, Pelosi calls the shots). I do have a problem with an organization that didn't have the guts to fight the Bankruptcy Bill when it really mattered because they claimed they have to pick their battles. And, then that same organization attacks (with a 6-figure ad buy) a Democrat for doing the exact same thing (as they claim). That's absolutely gutless and hypocritical for Moveon to do that. They need to walk the walk instead of going directly to talking the talk.

[woosh]

7. MoveOn is a Jonny come lately

On the Bankruptcy Bill. Where were they when it was up for a vote?

I have a feeling that this may become the story.

[iconoclastNYC]

10. Schultz is a former Republican FYI

And the right wing has been blasting MoveOn for a while.

Let him get all pissy, a big whatever.

Has Rush Limbaugh ever gotten pissy about the Club For Growth running ads against Voinvich and Snowe for not supporting chimpboys tax cuts? I doubt it, but I dont know for sure.

I support MoveOn....we need innovataive new activism if we are going to beat back the right-wing juggernaught.

[woosh]

12. So what?

He's very clear on where he stands on the issues.

[tx_dem41]

21. We need innovative new activism that is smart.

Let's hope Moveon has done their homework and they have located a viable Democratic alternative candidate and have some BIG donors lined up. It's all I could expect from an innovative activist group that is supposed to be smart as well.

[Langis]

11. Screw Schultz, I'm sick of him.

[KoKo]

62. Maybe we should listen to what he says on that show before trashing...

though. :eyes:

[Shakespeare]

14. Schultz is a blowhard. He lost me when....

...he gave tacit endorsement to Bush's SS attack by saying he thinks we should all work until the day we die. Fuck him.

[Moochy]

29. Big Edday

I'll second that estimation of Ed Schulz.

Blowhard. Did you hear his radio promo they run incessantly on the AAR stations where he runs a show from 1pm-4pm? (KQAK 960 AM San Francisco)

paraphrased:
"President Bush won the election. Thats ok, Big Eddie has written him a letter. < stuff about wanting Bush to come on the Ed Schulz show, and reaching out to the democrats> First question, would you send your daughters to Iraq?"

<sarcasm>Wow! good one Big Eddie.</sarcasm>

I'm not gonna bash him as some ex-right winger, we need more folks to make the conversion, but I must agree he's a blowhard.

Moochy

[vi5]

15. Maybe if Move On had gotten out ahead of this bill...

...rather than trying to play catch up with it. They pretty much admitted early on that that couldn't do anything with this because they had to pick and choose their battles and where their resources went and they felt this was a lost cause. I didn't begrudge them that, but for them to jump on this now is pretty lame.

I realize this will get me flamed by the moveoncandonowrong crowd. But I've donated to Move on and will continue to do so. I just don't like their attitude or approach on a lot of things they do.

[GiovanniC]

16. I've Got an Idea!

How about MoveOn attacks Dems in Congress, Ed Schultz can attack MoveOn, and then we can attack either Ed Schultz and MoveOn, depending on how we feel at the moment, while forgetting that our real goddamned enemies are the bastards who have ruined and are ruining our economy, environment, quality of life, civil liberties, education, foreign policy, et al.?

Let's keep doing THAT, because it has served us so well in the past.

[meganmonkey]

24. Heh. How dare you point that out!

;)

[tx_dem41]

43. Exactly. n/t

[Mz Pip]

19. Aren't there enough Republicans

to go after? Unless there is a viable candidate running against this guy, why give the Republicans more ammunition. I'll take a DINO any day over a flat out Republican.

Mz Pip
:dem:

[davidinalameda]

33. what's the difference between a DINO and a Repuke

:shrug:

they'll both screw you when they get a chance, and not in a good way either

[iconoclastNYC]

41. DINOs are worse

Because DINOS make it seem like there is little difference between the parties and people will go 3rd party or just stay home.

[davidinalameda]

42. thank you

couldn't have said it better myself

that's why I'm a Green--got sick and tired of the DINOs and their apologists

[ElectroPrincess]

124. Well put also ...

"that's why I'm a Green--got sick and tired of the DINOs and their apologists"

I have the exact same attitude as you. I quit volunteering for my local Democratic Party and vote ONLY for Democrats who put the CONSTITUENTS in front of the big money corporations who try to buy them off through lobbyists, etc.

More and more Democrats are quietly "fading out" as these pompous incumbents think that we will vote for them, NO matter what, before a Republican. With time, perhaps they'll shed their arrogance long enough to realize that us "average working stiff" Democrats will no longer vote for DINOs.

[Psephos]

60. Politics is the art of assembling coalitions

Success in politics comes when people with different opinions find common cause and band together.

Failure in politics comes when people with different opinions conduct purges and splinter into small groups, each of which believes only they can be trusted to do things the right way.

The repukes succeeded by deciding their differences shouldn't matter as much as their common interests. Election day has proved them right.

I'll take a DINO over a repuke any day. Half a loaf is better than none.

[iconoclastNYC]

65. Yeah so lets bring back labor

Who we have been alientating trying to go for the corporate people who are bettter left to the republicans.

[Village Idiot]

26. Interesting - but I thought there were 14 sellouts, not just one...

[truthisfreedom]

31. good move, Ed. by doing this, you establish that MoveOn.org is not simply

a tool of the liberals. this is a symbolic statement, folks... if Ed Schultz is against moveon for this activity, then what energy can the thugs' mudslinging about Soros's contributions to moveon have?

[naderzenithnow]

34. shultz is a rightwinger in liberal drag trying hijack our agenda.

wolf in sheep's clothing piece of crap.

[Tweed]

35. Yeah......

:tinfoilhat:

[Moochy]

46. Big Eddy, on the road to Damascus...

If it quacks like a duck... it may be a chicken.

Actually its mostly his tone that annoys me. Its the fact that he sounds like Rush with his nasal whining.

Maybe he just needs to stick with the Liberal Agenda from Barbara Streisand's compound.

Or maybe he's *GASP* in it for the money?

[tx_dem41]

53. "Liberal agenda from Barbara Streisand's compound".

Do you think that's where the liberal agenda comes from? Verrrry interesting.

[Moochy]

67. Thats a bit by Marc Maron

Oops I'm sorry I neglected to mark that reference as SATIRE.

"... Verrrry Interesting.."

Please take me off the blacklist ok colonel klink? :-)

"Liberal agenda from Barbara Streisand's compound"
from http://www.airamericaradio.com/shows/morningsedition/index.asp
Morning Sedition's regular segments -- from Maron and a writing crew that includes veterans of "The Daily Show" -- include "The Liberal Agenda," Barbra Streisand's daily marching orders for all good liberals, and "Planet Bush," reports from the alternate reality in which our nation's leader operates.

[tx_dem41]

72. Col. Klink? Nahhhh, much more like Sgt. Schultz...

"I see noooothhhing!". :)

Sorry, for the "verrry interesting".

[Moochy]

79. Hooogan!!!

I knew that those bribes of silk panty hose and cigarettes would do the trick!

;-)

[tx_dem41]

44. A nice symbolic statement would have been to actually make ...

an effort DURING the Bankruptcy Bill consideration instead of lamely sitting on the sidelines saying that they have to pick their battles. Funny, that attacking Democrats is the battle they have now finally chosen.

[4_Legs_Good]

37. Schultz is a putz and he's absolutely a centrist

to call him a liberal is an affront to liberals. He greatest asset is that he sounds exactly like Rush.

david

[KoKo]

58. And, Franken is a Liberal?

:eyes:

[4_Legs_Good]

63. Good point, but at least Franken is entertaining!

When I turn Schultz on I don't know for several minutes if it's him or Rush. At least with Franken I'm usually laughing within a few minutes which is better than nothing. :)

david

[sonicx]

38. Ed's right. It is stupid. Republicans have more money than Dems...

Let's use the little money we have to attack them, not our own.

[cyclezealot]

48. Hoyer voted for Bankruptacy bill.

he has some explaining to do...Democrats who betray us, need feel our rath for their straying..The bankruptacy bill. Not a small issue..He learns his lessons he might be forgiven.

[Freddie Stubbs]

141. So did Sen. Byrd, and MoveOn raised $ for him after he voted for this bill

Are they sending mixed signals? :shrug:

[monobrau]

49. Let the chips fall where they may

We need to clean house regardless of party affiliation, and there is plenty of democratic scum out there, especially if you include the Leiberman/Miller faction.

[Nancy Waterman]

57. They could have blanketed Hoyer with emails and faxes

so he knows we are watching. But we should keep our intra-party squabbles in house. The big money should attack the Repukes and their agenda. I am not happy about what Move-on did. Is Hoyer so bad on other issues? I really don't know. He has been well-spoken when I have seen him on TV. We need to be careful or we will become self-destructive.

[bvar22]

55. My political enemies.

Those who will advance the agenda of the RICH and POWERFUL at the expense of LABOR, the WORKING CLASS, and the POOR are my political enemies. I no longer care if they have an(R) or a(D) after their name.

There are some who have a childish "knee jerk" reaction to defend and protect their HIGH SCHOOL at the expense of Morality and Conscience. They will offer numerous rationalizations to protect the status quo or delay accountability. Protecting the Status Quo and voting solely on Party alignment and NOT issues has brought the Democratic Party to the edge of extinction. If NOW is "not the time" to hold our elected representatives accountable to Democratic Party standards, then WHEN?

When something is WRONG, it is WRONG! The TRUTH should never be postponed or overlooked for convenience. MoveON is speaking TRUTH to POWER, and I support them.

They have chosen Steny Hoyer because he is the Party Whip, and it is his job to coordinate, concentrate, and organize Democratic OPPOSITION to the Republicans. He has clearly abrogated his duties and betrayed the principles of the Democratic Party. For that REASON, he needs to be held publicly accountable. He can defend (or attempt to defend) his vote in the same public forum.

Other Democratic sell outs need to know that they will be held publicly accountable when they choose Corporate Money over the public good. By targeting individuals, an example can be made. The Democrats need to realize that WE can now WATCH them through the INTERNET, and have a forum to hold them accountable.

MoveOn is also attacking 10 Republicans. If Democrats are voting with the Republicans, then they have chosen to be included in that group.

The Corporate Powers behind the Republican Party and the DLC will attack MoveOn and other organizations that threaten their undemocratic hold over our government. The Corporate interests have consolidated their control over our government by:

*the outright purchasing of an interest in the Democratic Party (DLC)

*Ownership of the Campaign Forums (CorpoMedia and CorpoDebates)

*Financial control over the Primaries of both Parties

*Ownership of the CorpoMedia

*Ownership of Voting Machines and Vote Counting

*The entenchment of the Corporate Interest lobbying system


This may be the last opportunity to reclaim our Democracy.
The Internet has given us a temporary voice to challenge the CorpoMedia. It will not be available for very long.
I am sending a donation to MoveOn today.
If you value your DEMOCRACY, you will too.

[KoKo]

61. Well said! And, here's why I won't trash Ed Schultz....

But, I still think Schultz is doing a good job. He will bring in the listener who is sick of Rush but likes his style, and educate them. Schultz has many members of Congress on his show, and he's mainstream but not on all issues. That's why he will bring more folks over to the Democratic Party than those of us on the far left, at this point.

So, while I would be out there holding every Dem who voted for Bankruptcy Bill accountable...and screaming it from the rooftops, I won't attract alot of attention from the "truck crowd" that Schultz is reaching.

However, Move On gives me an opportunity to vent my anger at those who voted for this because the vote was a chance to show that we Democrats DO stand up for the person who can't stand up on their own and we blew it.

Both MoveOn and Ed Schultz have their place. Al Franken and the rest do also.

[lyonn]

121. On Cross-fire today, I think

the Repub. female made a big deal out of how the Dems in Congress voted for the Repub. bill. So, it looks like the Dems should vote no on all the bills that comes up if they don't agree with it. Dems wouldn't defeat a bill if all of them voted no since they are in the minority, big time. We are giving the Repubs amo by voting with them.

[tx_dem41]

70. Something tells me that you would be much happier with a Democratic..

representation of about 100 pure progressives/liberals in the House and no one else. And, if you consider Hoyer a political enemy then you are going to absolutely love the Republican that takes his seat if you get your true wish, a purely progressive candidate winning the Democratic primary. Some people want to remain ideologically pure and some people want to win the House where they can actually write effective legislation that changes people's lives for the better. It is clear what side you are on.

You live within a political dream that never existed, not even during the FDR years where the Southern, Midwestern and Northeastern wings of the party were at each others' throats. Oh, I'm sure there were people on both ends of the spectrum that yelled about staying pure, but thank goodness enough wise people in the mix got together, made some compromises and passed FDR's New Deal.

[bvar22]

81. 100 % Progressive....

...much better than 100% Corporate owned.
100% corporate owned is ALSO Ideological Purity.

The political strategy you endorse in this thread IS the strategy that has produced the marginalization and decline of the Democratic Party.
Populist Reform and a return to Ideological Purity is the only thing that can save the Democratic Party.


Politicians who vote for and support legislation and policies that are ANTI-LABOR and ANTI-WORKING CLASS do not belong in the Democratic Party. They already have a party...The Republican Party.

Please explain to me again the part about how I need to send money to and campaign for & vote for people that have promised to work against my economic and social interests (as well as the interests of 98% of America)?
I don't get that part.

[tx_dem41]

82. I can't "explain to you AGAIN", since I never said it in the first place.

Can you point to me a time where the Democratic Party was not
"marginalized"? I'm wondering when this Eden existed?

[bvar22]

88. Now you are just being silly

..and trying to avoid the big question asked above.

[tx_dem41]

96. If you are talking about the question related to sending money...

...and voting for them, as I stated last time, I wouldn't know, since I never said you should send them money and vote for them. Can you point out where I did say that?

I've stated that we should always make sure we have viable candidates coming out of the primaries.

As for the marginalization part, I'll stand by what I said. The Democrats have never been a homogeneous, ideologically "pure" party. Its always been an amalgamation of different factions ranging in one respect from "liberal" to "moderate" even "conservative" at times.

[bvar22]

109. Your "points"...

..are Red Herrings.

1)If you are not able to see the decline and marginalization of the Democratic Party since 1994 (really since Reagan), then you are not worth anyone's time, and a discussion of this decline is not pertinent to the topic of this thread.

2) You are correct that Big Money has ALWAYS tried to buy Democrats. You are DEAD WRONG when you attempt to justify corruption and vote selling in the Democratic Party because "its always been that way"!

3) You insist that I MUST have a viable alternate candidate BEFORE criticizing ANY Democratic Representative. Who made this rule? I disagree.
Truth to Power ANYTIME!

When something occurs that is AS WRONG as Democrats voting for this spectacularly BAD legislation, it is my DUTY as a citizen and a Democrat to call them on it.

I will be sending another contribution to MoveOn.
They speak for me!

[tx_dem41]

115. C'mon Bvar....

I made no attempt to justify corruption and vote selling in the Democratic Party because its always been that way. Can you start answering my question as to where you think I said that.

I stated on this thread, that Steny (and others...heck, I'm the only one on this thread that thinks Pelosi herself should be criticized...but she seems to be "protected" for some reason) should be criticized for this vote, I just don't like who is doing the criticizing and the forum in which its being done. I've also stated that if you could find a viable candidate to the left of Steny I would gladly vote for them.

What I'm not going to agree with is the sentiment recently expressed down thread that Steny is "worse than a Republican". A perusal of his voting record shows stellar records on many issues that at least some (I used to think ALL, but DU has taught me differently) Democrats hold dear. 100% scores from NARAL and Planned Parenthood, 100% from Human Rights Campaign, 100% from the Sierra Club, 100% from NEA, 100% for the Children's Defense Fund, 100% from AFL-CIO, UAW, SEIU, and AFSCME, 0% from the American Conservative Union, and 0-10% from the conservative anti-tax groups. If you agree with the poster that said this (and I'm not saying you do) ...that this is the voting record of a man that is "worse than a Republican", than so be it. But, don't ask me to agree with the sentiment.

[bvar22]

119. Perhaps "justify" was not the right word.

I said:
"You are DEAD WRONG when you attempt to justify corruption and vote selling in the Democratic Party because "its always been that way"!

I backed up the thread, and I agree with you. NOWHERE did you try to justify corruption and vote selling.

I would like to amend that post to read:

"You are DEAD WRONG when you insist that we should OVERLOOK corruption and vote selling in the Democratic Party because its always been that way!

That statement would be accurate. That IS the Status Quo argument.

I haven't seen you (on this thread) attempt to justify or explain Democrats voting for this spectacularly bad piece of legislation. You just seem to object to publicly asking our representatives to explain their votes, or publicly criticizing our representatives for abandoning their constituents.


MoveOn is giving Steny an opportunity to publicly explain his vote.
I am very interested in hearing his explanation.

[ikojo]

56. It's time Democrats are held accountable for their votes

Every two to four years the Dems don work hats and work jackets and march in Labor Day parades in hopes of convincing people they stand with working America. The remaining years many Dems are busy adopting the Republican agenda or supporting it.

The thing the Christian right does correctly is they hold their "reps" and Senators accountable. These elected officials know this to be true so they try not to tick off their base too much. Dems assume that working class poeple have nowhere else to go and they govern and vote accordingly.

This must stop.

Moveon.org is correct to call any Dem who voted for Bush's bankruptcy bill to account for their actions.

[tx_dem41]

80. Hoyer has been held accountable every 2 years....for about the ...

last 30 years. The overwhelming majority of Democratic voters have voted for him. Maybe, in that district, its we members of DU that are out of touch with that electorate.

[bvar22]

84. Well then....

He has nothing to fear from MoveOn.

MoveOn is only telling the truth about who Hoyer is working for. If the people of his district are OK with him supporting legislation written by the Credit Card Companies that takes away protections for 98% of his electorate, who are we to complain?

[tx_dem41]

89. Two things....as you know the world is not divided into Democrats and..

...Republicans only. I care greatly about what effect an organization that oddly chose not to fight the Bankruptcy Bill in the first place can have on the Independent voters and "soft" Democrats.

Hey, if you can find a candidate that is more liberal AND can win the district, I say go for it. If the candidate is viable, I would vote for the person. But, since Hoyer has had a moderate-left voting record for 30 yrs and keeps winning by big margins, you better be very sure.

[Robbien]

90. Please tell me one way your DLC beliefs are different than the RNC's?

I cannot see even one difference.

[Skidmore]

59. Maher also ripped Moveon.org

this last week.

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

105. maher supports SS privatization

so fuck him

[ElectroPrincess]

126. Maher's an idiot /eom

[bvar22]

136. "Maher's an idiot"

Agreed.

[demnan]

64. Moveon.org should continue to condemn the policies

of the bancrupcy bill. Frankly if you act like an "R" what's the use of having a "D" after your name? They should critize all the dems who voted for this bill.

[OKthatsIT]

113. I agree

GET RID OF TURNCOATS!!!

[confludemocrat]

164. Exactly

Hoyer is in the leadership, professes to be a liberal but screwed this one up at such a critical time. He should be criticized, he was criticized. In your hearts anti-MoveOn people here, you know MoveOn's right!

[Dr Fate]

83. I want DEMS to start considering the base for more than just donations...

...and volunteer time.

We are not here for you to ask for money- we are here for you to LISTEN TO.

Move On has every right to expose DEMS who ignore the hard-working, money & time donating base.

[B Calm]

91. I agree with MoveOn! These phony democrats need to be

forced out of office! I want my political democratic working man's party back!

[Freddie Stubbs]

142. So is any Democrats who voted for this bill a "phony Democrat?"

:shrug:

[B Calm]

172. Yes they are. They are taking money from powerful lobyists

and ignoring the working class. Sorry but this vote really shows we are no longer an opposition party to the republicans.

[Freddie Stubbs]

175. But Senator Byrd voted for this bill

Is he a phony Democrat? :shrug:

[damntexdem]

97. Anyone who voted for the bankruptcy bill is bankrupt:

morally, politically, and intellectually. Smash 'em!

[nolabels]

98. So what's so NEW anyway?

Okay build an audience of with people on the left side of dial and then use your influence with them to either conquer and divide or sell another program.

A lot of the host's claim to be middle of the road kinda, so what's the beef, don't listen or something already.

Is this really so NEW, Eddy attacks the messenger in MOVEON.

Take a grain of salt and punch up DU in the morning :hi:

[SKKY]

99. I'm not an Ed Schultz fan, but I've gotta agree with him...

...why, why, why would moveon pick on one of their own when the other side is providing so many targets to hit? Moveon has only highlighted, IMHO, what half of this country thinks- that the Democratic party is in shambles. I can see Howard Dean has sooooooooo much more work to do than I thought.

[derby378]

101. Sorry, Ed - we're going DINO-huntin'

If Steny Hoyer has to lose his job over this, so be it. We'll not have our party beholden to Big Business anymore.

[OKthatsIT]

114. Bankrupcy Bill is our HITLIST, it STAYS!

Ed Shultz is stupid...

[realFedUp]

103. Both MoveOn and Ed have points

We don't want more Republicans getting
voted in, but at the same time Democrats
who vote for these bills are almost
as bad as Republicans. It's good to
let the Dems who vote for bad bills know
that their seats aren't guaranteed
just because they are registered Democrats.
The Dems who voted for the bankruptcy bill
didn't need to and they certainly didn't
vote with the rest of the Dems.

I just won't give money to individual
Dems who vote for bad bills. Any monies
I give the DNC hopefully will go to
state orgs to disperse to local pols,
voter registration and state ads.

Barbara Boxer currently is asking CA residents
which Senators up for election to give some of her PAC money to...

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

104. the DLC put schultz on the air!

just look at the board of the so-called 'democracy radio"

it's a bunch of former staffers for sell-out DINOs.

schultz thinks we should just take it when our party fucks us over and if you speak ill of them, then you're a bad democrat.

schultz also acts like it's blasphemy to say you're not enthused by a hillary candidacy

the guy's a phony. he couldn't even come out against ANWR drilling until his listeners overwhelmed him

he doesn't stand for anything. half the time he doesn't even know what he's talking about. hell, i could outdebate this guy

and he kisses lieberman's ass--my diagnosis: gop/dlc plant

[sleipnir]

108. Hoyer is bad news and is worse than a Republican

He's a traitor to the party and should be removed from power at the next election. I stand by MoveOn and actually donated some extra cash to help support this effort to remove the traitors in our party. Special interests shall not be tolerated and even one vote for these interests is enough evidence of failure.

[KoKo]

116. kick..........

[dsc]

118. Why attack Hoyer

when it is the Democratic Senators who were the real problem here. Democrats could have filibustered the bill in the Senate had they just all opposed it. Instead 15, flipped. Hoyer, no matter what he did couldn't prevent the bill from passing.

[bvar22]

130. You're right in that...

..it could have been blocked in the Senate. If Joe Liberman hadn't voted to end debate, this bill wouldn't have made it out of committee. I am very curious why Joe would vote to end debate and let this out of committee, then vote against it on the floor (giving himself cover?) where it was going to pass anyway.

I do understand MoveOn's choice of Hoyer to target. He is the House Minority Whip. It is his JOB to coordinate, concentrate, and LEAD the Opposition Party. He is THE ONE GUY who should absolutely vote THE PARTY LINE on EVERY SINGLE VOTE! It is hard to LEAD the opposition when you are working for the same people that fund the Majority.

MoveOn is also targeting 10 Republicans with the same buy. If the Opposition Whip chose to join the Republicans on this vote, it is fair to place him in that group.

Considering limited resources, Selective Targeting of leadership is a much more powerful weapon than collective criticism of a group which dilutes the spotlight and allows individual to hide in the shadows.

These people are SUPPOSED to be accountable to the citizens. THAT is in our American charter. It is time the citizens start demanding accountability. Without MoveOn, this matter would have generated some Internet Blips, but would have gone down the memory hole in a couple of days. The Corporate Dems would have quietly collected their payoffs and return to business as usual. Even with MoveOn, this matter will probably quickly disappear, but it is a movement in the right direction.


The thing that REALLY PISSES ME OFF about these kinds of votes (especially on Economic Issues) is that it gives the Republicans cover. We CANNOT HOLD the Republicans ACCOUNTABLE for selling out the American People when the Republicans can respond with...."Hey, that was a bi-partisan initiative. The Democrats voted for it too!!!"


The ONE RAY of HOPE is the apparent collective stand against the Republicans goal of destroying Social Security. I hope that this stand is not just a DECOY while the republicans, with the help of the sellout Democrats(DLC) ram through a wide array of legislation completely dismantling the New Deal and giving Corporations and the RICH the power they once had at the turn of the Century.

[xchrom]

120. good for move on!

letting reps and senators know that people are paying attention -- and will act on what they find.

that move on was ''late'' to the bankruptcy debate means squat -- it's hoyers vote that's at issue.
his vote is no less wrong because move on was attacking repukes on some other very important issue:think: .

putting public pressure on dems and doing it in a timely fashion after a vote as controversial as this is very important in and of itself.

because you criticize a candidate publicly doesn't mean you have to have a candidate in the wings -- it means you are telling him/her immediately that many, many people don't want that direction in his/her tenure -- and that's relevant enough.

[zara]

122. Schulz didn't rip it; he disagreed. Further, shouldn't Dems...

err on taking a stand for what we believe in, even if the result is not unity?

[ElectroPrincess]

127. Nope, not when 9 times out of 10 ...

What the DLC DINOs believe in EQUALS increased corporate power at the expense of the working American.

Their cover is blown, but they're too damn arrogant and stupid to realize they (the DINOs) will *lose big* in 2006.

Hey, it breaks my heart but I'll be damned if I'll vote for a DINO who will later stab THE PEOPLE in the back for a little more corporate cash in the re-election campaign coffers.

To hell with "Corporations 1st and Always" type Democrats.

[creeksneakers2]

133. Steny Hoyer could have had honest reasons

I don't understand why everything that doesn't agree with the far left line is part of a sinister corporate sell out. I don't like the bankrupcy bill, but I don't think the idea of people who can pay back part of their debt being asked to do so is such an outgrage. (Taking away child support payments is an outrage though)

No matter who is elected, they are likely to have some differences with the folks at Democratic Underground. One can be against everybody and retain some kind of perceived purity. It looks pointless to me. If one doesn't care about results, why care at all?

If MoveOn.org has to threaten some Democrats, they should start with a handful that have bad records over the long term, that can be beaten in primary fights, and are in districts that can be held. Maybe Joe Lieberman?

[B Calm]

173. Then why don't Steny Hoyer tell us his reasons? and while he's at it

he can tell us how much money he recieved to buy his vote..

[koopie57]

134. food for thought ..

I had listened to Schultz's show today and it was frustrating, but a caller made the following point .. and I hope to catch the just of it. He said that we shouldn't blame any democrat for this bill passing. It was an extremely wide margin with 100 percent of the republicans voting for it. Rather than eat our own, we should get out there and say this was a republican bill and the responsibility falls squarely on the republicans. They sat down with the banks and credit card companies, they pushed the bill, they are responsible for it being on the books. And I tend to think he is has a valid point. I am angry that any democrat voted for it, but on the other hand we should write them a letter telling them that, but in public we should scream it at every opportunity that this bill and the pain it will cause falls squarely on the republicans. IMHO.

[ElectroPrincess]

137. Yes, and the Democrats who voted "yes" for the Bankruptcy Bill

are "Republocrats" so we shouldn't have a problem washing their nasty little corporate loving butts out of Congress?

This bill was a BIG give-away to the Credit Card Companies. There's nothing LEFT or RIGHT about it. This is class war. The Ruling Class (Corporations) against the Working and Middle Class Americans.

Any Democrat who isn't honest enough to accept this reality will go down with the DINOs and DLCers in 2006.

I'm in for the long haul ... being a "working" vice "corporate" American should NOT equate with either leftist or socialism.

Wake up folks, we are 80% on the way to Corporate Control of our government. That should frighten all of us into positive action.

[tx_dem41]

138. I hear this "bloodbath" talk every two years.

It never happens. Why? Because the people saying it are not close to being "typical" voters. And, that's not necessarily a bad thing.

[ElectroPrincess]

144. Time will tell ... but I'm not talking blood-bath ...

No, not at all. What I'm talking about is the FACT that the average Democratic Representative is getting perks from large corporations. Understandably, some of them are voting accordingly while smiling and claiming to be for "the working American."

Yes, time will tell but if the DLC does not start standing up for the AVERAGE working American instead of allowing the Republicans to lead them by the nose on tangents of "wedge issues" (Abortion, Religion in Govt., etc.). The Democrats who vote to give even more power to the corporations will LOSE in 2006.

MoveOn is one of few hopes to keep Democrats working for the average American.

It's the MONEY, POWER and CONTROL of the Government when the smoke clears.

Personally, I have served on Active Duty and proudly vowed to uphold the Constitution, but future generations may be saying their Pledges of Allegiances to "The Walmart Superstores of America" instead of The Flag of the USA. <joke - sort of>

My point: The TRUE issues here concern the distribution of MONEY and POWER. I contend that it's not LEFTIST nor SOCIALISTIC to *insist* on increased regulation of our bloated and spoiled USA Corporation. Uncontrolled Capitalism will lead to Corporate Fascism.

Do you honestly consider that result a whole lot better than being like those damn so called "socialistic" Europeans?

[confludemocrat]

166. I upchucked on such food

This was a critical test, like Civil Rights would be, if a significant amount of Dems voted for this as well as some of the leadership (that would be Hoyer), then there is no way Dems can credibly use this against the Repubs. That is why Dems failure here is so egregious.

[koopie57]

171. yes, the more I thought about it

the more it pissed me off. We should not have to play games to defend our elected officials.

[DemoMemo]

150. Wasted Money

I really couldn't believe that MoveOn would do this, until I heard a radio spot run against Hoyer in D.C. today. I have to say that this is a real counterproductive waste of money. It's like saying, "Hey, we've got money to burn, so let's throw some of it at Democrats who don't ALWAYS vote well." Listen guys, we don't have money to burn. Couldn't MoveOn have spent the money a little more productively targeting Frist and the impending abolishment of the filibuster? And, if not on that, how about educating the public a little about Social Security to counter some of the "if we lie long enough they'll believe us" rhetoric being generated by the Administration? There are far better ways to waste our limited resources...

[podnoi]

151. SHULTZ WENT FOR JUGULAR!!! It was neocon nasty!!

I have been a fan of Ed Shultz, but after hearing him today I don't know if I will ever think of the man the same again. He went totally for the Jugular, put words in the guy from MoveOn's mouth, played the same nasty tricks I expect from Rush Limbaugh or his ilk.

I did not like it one bit!

[SKKY]

157. Well, it's about time someone on our side started doing that!

I mean come on! The last real big episode that played out in our favor like this was John Stewart on Cross Fire. I think Ed is keeping us honest and on task, which can only be a good thing. I don't often agree with him, or even like him, but when he's right, he's usually very, very right.

[rman]

158. moveon should take a broader approach

and call all the Dem traitors for what they are.
the voting records alone should be enough to present as evidence.

[RogueTrooper]

159. Steny Hoyer

Steny Hoyer is a Democrat in a leadership position. He used that leadership position to support the bankruptcy bill. I hope he enjoys the heat; and I hope the other Dems who supporterd this assault on working America take note.

[K8-EEE]

169. How Can We Blame GOP For Supporting DeLay Then??

Holding people responsible, whether they're "on your team" or not is the basis of any kind of ethical standards in politcs. The GOP won't do it; we SHOULD do it.

[B Calm]

174. EXACTLY!!

[oc2002]

176. Shultz is WRONG, and I just sent Moveon a check for $100!

Go Go Moveon.org!

[oasis]

179. When MoveOn attacks a valuable Democrat, I begin to wonder about their

true agenda.

[Mika]

184. Ed Schultz is a liberal??

:wtf:

Which way is the wind blowing today?



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