Row in France over lowering of flags for Pope.

[Flagg]

Row in France over lowering of flags for Pope.

PARIS, April 4 (AFP) - Leading French left-wingers on Monday criticised the government of President Jacques Chirac for lowering flags on public buildings in tribute to the late pope, arguing that it was a breach of the country's secular principles.
"For Christians to pay homage to the head of their church -- that is part of their private lives. But when the head of state involves the whole of the population, whatever their religion, that is clearly an abuse of power," said Yves Contassot, a Green party member and deputy mayor of Paris.
Recalling that Chirac's centre-right government recently passed a law banning religious symbols in schools, Contassot said: "Today we have a government and a head of state who are trying to take political advantage of a private affair.
"I find this totally out of place, and when it comes to the flags, possibly illegal," he said.
Socialist deputy Jean-Luc Melenchon said: "This kind of thing is insidious. It can have all sorts of knock-on effects. The authorities should display total and unambiguous attention to the secular principle.
"Whether you want it or not, lowering the national symbol is a kind of favour done to a religion," he said.
Flags were put at half-mast in France for 24 hours following Pope John Paul II's death on Saturday. Officials said it was to honour a respected head of state and an important international figure, not the head of a religion.
"This Republican tradition is applied in the case of ruling heads of state with whom France has privileged relations. The same step was taken for preceding popes," a spokesman for Prime Minister Jean-Pierre Raffarin said.
"Thanks to his personality Pope John Paul II affected all men, secular and non-secular, and France owed it to itself to show its grief," said writer Max Gallo, defending the government's decision.

http://www.adetocqueville.com/200504041205.j34c5ko25797.htm

[Inland]

1. Now they'll have to lower for Ranier, also. nt

[demnan]

2. Well he has a point

Because they won't allow Muslim girls to wear their headgear and now they are officially recognizing the Pope.

They should allow the women to wear scarves in school if they want to observe their religion that way. Things should be fair all around.

[piece sine]

4. The Pope is a head of State

The Vatican is an independent country, and although tiny, the Vatican wields more influence than, say, a larger nation such as France.

[plasticsundance]

3. The Pope's death exposes the power structure of the real world

It's sad, but true. It's the powers-to-be conspiring to retain power. What chance do women and school children have against the powers-to-be?

[republicansareevil]

5. I'd like to remind everyone that when the headscarf ban was discussed...

...there were many on DU arguing that the ban was not motivated by prejudice against muslims but merely by an extreme sense of secularism and desire to keep religion out of public affairs. Yet this same right-wing government has no problem with this symbolic gesture of the flags. Frankly, neither do I. I see the act as far less of a problem than the pledge of allegiance issue in the U.S. However, I think the French government's true motivation for the headscarf ban just became a little clearer.

[plasticsundance]

6. I always saw the banning of the headscarves ...

as a poorly veiled secular attempt to restrict a particular religion. What's more, I failed to see how it would serve to decrease tensions, as the French government claimed. It appeared to me it would have just the opposite effect.

[republicansareevil]

7. yes, but try telling that to some DUers

There were some who just insisted that it was not about bigotry, and that we Americans just don't understand the French devotion to secularism, and anyway we're probably the same people who go around calling the French "cheese-eating surrender monkeys." :eyes:

[termo]

8. as a froggy I say:

Fcuk the religious french right wing and raise the flag !
...and stop poluting the public TV channels with religion

[Flagg]

12. You're French, not a frog.

[termo]

17. I spent too much time in UK :o)

[magnussun]

32. Your the French, not a frog

According to a person I am debating who denies there are any insulting slurs against those of European descent. Froggie, is a slur, as is Polock, or WASP. Have some respect.

M

[magnussun]

33. Banning headscarves

Headscarves weren't banned, all religious symbols were, even symbols which are a part of French heritage.

M

[Mass]

22. and it was for most French.

Once again, what you call the headscarf ban was not only directed towards Muslims, but also towards all religions. It was unanimously supported by all parties, including those people who protest against the gesture of flags.

[republicansareevil]

30. Not true.

It banned headscarves but not small crucifixes or Stars of David. And they were considering waiving the rule for turban-wearing Sikhs who are apparently not as "undesirable" a minority as Muslims. Not sure what they ended up deciding about that.

Not all measures passed unanimously are good. The Patriot Act here was nearly unanimous.

As I said, I have no objection to this gesture as the Pope was an important world leader. I just think it shows that France is not as fearful of religion creeping into public affairs as some DUers believe -- at least not if it's the "right" religion.

And whether or not most French attend church is irrelevant. A nominal Christian is still a Christian, and it's not far-fetched that many would be more comfortable living next to a devout Catholic than a devout Muslim.

[Mass]

35. I hope you are French

to speak with such authority of what happened in France.

Actually, they banned the kippah as well as crosses and David Stars that were not jewels and could not be worn under clothes.

[onehandle]

9. France is near 90% Catholic.

Several Popes were French. The Papacy was in France for a time. Religion aside, the Pope is equal to royalty over there. Many European countries lowered their flags.

If lefties have a problem with this, take it to court. Personally, I think they have more important matters to focus on.

[termo]

10. where are your statistic from ?

90%, LOL

updated:

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2001/5646.htm

"According to one member of the Catholic hierarchy, only 8 percent of the population are practicing Catholics."

[onehandle]

11. LOL.

From your own link:

"The vast majority of the population is nominally Roman Catholic. According to one member of the Catholic hierarchy, only 8 percent of the population are practicing Catholics."

Members of a religion that actually practices is often a fraction of the population that claim membership.

The statistic I quoted is from a textbook from 1989. The Catholic number may have dropped (I assume mostly due to immigration) since then according to this link. I'm looking for more:

80.40% Catholic
http://www.cmu.org.uk/religions/12catholics/cat_pg29.htm

More than 80 percent of France's 60 million people identify themselves as Catholic; 2 percent are Protestant, 1 percent Jewish and between 5 and 10 percent Muslim.
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1058/is_1_121/ai_112411301

France today (approximately 76 percent Catholic, 5 percent Protestant, 4 percent Moslem, 1.2 percent Jewish, and 10 percent "other")
http://www.jcpa.org/jl/vp370.htm

[termo]

15. come here an see yourself

http://a1692.g.akamai.net/f/1692/2042/1h/medias.lemonde.fr/medias/pdf_obj/sondage030416.pdf

A 2003 poll 41% said that the existence of God was "excluded" or "unlikely". 33% declared that "atheist" described them rather or very well, and 51% for "Christian". When questioned about their religion, 62% answered Roman Catholic, 6% Muslim, 2% Protestant, 1% Jewish, 2% "other religions" (except for Orthodox or Buddhist, which were negligible), 26% "no religion" and 1% declined to answer.

you mix culture and believes, churches are empty, there is only one priest for many churches nowadays.

[onehandle]

19. My original post said nothing about church attendance.

You implied a mere 8% in your response to me.

"Near 90%" may no longer be accurate as it was in the past, but "vast majority" (from your link) is accurate. Even in your carefully selected pdf, it says 62%.

Regardless, The Pope is as a King, if not actually a King in Europe. Religion aside.

[VegasWolf]

16. Maybe 80% of the 20% that are religious. n/t

[Mass]

18. No

Those are the numbers published by the Catholic Church, which grossly overestimates the number of catholics in France each year.

The numbers posted by termo seems fairly reasonnable, and among these 62 %, most of them only go to church for baptisms, weddings, and funerals.

[VegasWolf]

21. My point is that the total number of "churched" people in europe is

sanely and encouragely a small percentage of the total population.

[Mass]

23. Definitively yes

[GOPFighter]

24. And why is that?

I've always wondered why Europeans (at least the countries I've visited) seem to have avoided the religious fanaticism many Americans and Middle Easterners have succumbed to. Is it our water? Leaded paint? Dick and Jane books in the 50s? I'm baffled.

[Charon]

34. religious fanaticism

Possibly because they went throught the same type of religious fanaticism in the 15th & 16th centurys, called the Reformation/counter-Reformation.

[mainer]

13. Didn't I hear that Bush told us to lower the flag for the Pope?

Or was that just a rumor?

[slutticus]

14. A lot of flags in Houston are at half-staff

A lot more than when the Tsunami hit. :eyes:

[Mass]

20. The flags are lowered everywhere in the States

even if the very liberal Massachusetts. You honor a man and not a religion.

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Pinboy]

27. Welcome to DU, Bruce!

From one newbie to another.

[Mass]

28. Actually they do

I just read the French version of the same article and it is not what you think. In fact, among the people protesting this measure is the head of the Christian Democracy and a series of secular organisations, while the Party Socialist has decided not to protest and the governemental party obviously agrees with the measure. The name quoted in the English version of the article are also minor names in French politics. Dont take this too literally.

It seems clear that a small part of the population is actually protesting against this measure while the large majority just does not care.

[beyurslf]

29. They are here in KS too but I saw one firestation with it flying all

the way up. Usually, they are the only places that always get it right.

[Pinboy]

25. Yes. Here's the Presidential Proclamation:

Release
Office of the Press Secretary
April 2, 2005
President Bush Orders Flags Flown at Half Staff in Honor of Pope John Paul II

A Proclamation by the President of the United States of America

As a mark of respect for His Holiness Pope John Paul II, I hereby order, by the authority vested in me by the Constitution and laws of the United States of America, that the flag of the United States shall be flown at half staff at the White House and on all public buildings and grounds, at all military posts and naval stations, and on all naval vessels of the Federal Government in the District of Columbia and throughout the United States and its Territories and possessions until sunset on the day of his interment. I also direct that the flag shall be flown at half staff for the same period at all United States embassies, legations, consular offices, and other facilities abroad, including all military facilities and naval vessels and stations.

IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand this second day of April, in the year of our Lord two thousand five, and of the Independence of the United States of America the two hundred and twenty ninth.

GEORGE W. BUSH

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/04/20050402-3.html

[magnussun]

31. Pope was head of state

The Pope was head of state. What's the problem? The communists didn't like the Pope, so they are making an ugly display. Sorry commies, about the Popester helping the end your tyranny in Poland.

M