Home-schooled students want part in public school activities

[NashVegas]

The Tennessee Home Education Association is backing legislation that would allow students who are taught at home — and those in small private schools — to play high school sports and participate in such extracurricular activities as art, drama and music in public schools.

''It's about equal access,'' said Mike Bell, a THEA lobbyist who teaches his kids at home. ''This is about giving all Tennessee children equal access to publicly funded facilities and activities.''

It's not that simple, say members of the Tennessee Secondary School Athletic Association, which regulates athletics for about 5,500 high school and middle school teams and nearly 110,000 students. Members of the association, which includes about 400 public schools statewide, repeatedly have rejected making any changes to its rules and don't support allowing home-school and private school students to participate.

...

The change, pitched by Republican lawmakers Sen. Jim Bryson of Franklin and Rep. Beth Harwell of Nashville, would expand participation for students who aren't in public schools as long as those extras aren't already offered at their school, they pay any applicable activity fees and adhere to academic and behavior rules set by the schools.

http://tennessean.com/education/archives/05/03/67794851.shtml?Element_ID=67794851

I love this: we want your sports equipment and your art supplies, but we don't want to be in your classrooms.

[wakeme2008]

1. I could be wrong but I do not

think it is "publicly funded" for students that do not go there. The schools only get funds for their headcount.

[etherealtruth]

8. I think the "family" PAYS the same tax $ ...

...as those that send their kids to public school (but, you are probably correct re the distribution of the $).

I am no fan of home schooling (I generally have very negative opinions about why people home school) but I think that they should be allowed to participate.

[TahitiNut]

9. Childless people also pay the same taxes ...

... should they get to use their "fair share" too? Hell, I'm childless; I think I'd like to play baseball with some friends. I think I'll go demand use of the school's athletic equipment and baseball fields. :shrug:

Businesses pay school taxes. Should the schools supply them with athletic equipment for the industrial leagues? While I'm at it, I think I'll go demand that the local police let me use their firepower. After all, I help pay for it. :evilgrin:

[LostinVA]

13. I agree, Tahititnut

I have no children but pay the same taxes, too. If you wish to home school, that's your prerogative. But, you choose to purposely not include in the school community, the school didn't choose to exclude your child.

[etherealtruth]

15. Ah, but as a member of the community ...

You benefit when the youth of your community are adequately educated and socialized; you suffer when they receive sub-standard education, are not socially appropriate and have little or no recreational outlets. As a supporter of public education I think it's consistent to allow them to participate.

[TahitiNut]

20. They are allowed to participate ...

... all they have to do is enroll and be subject to the same academic requirements and eligibility criteria as all other students. Simple. Since when do cliques get to make special rules for themselves?

[etherealtruth]

38. Just got my kids safely off to school ... (public)

Which increases my ability to think clearly ... I am NOT pleased with home schooling either---in general, their motivation is rather frightening. (I can't follow the logic of your first argument, schools provide these services to the community, the police/fire depts do not provide a play service ... as a tax payer you do avail yourself to their services...)

I believe that allowing participation (even buffet style) will enhance my community by enhancing the socialization of these kids. State tax $ should then be prorated... Again, I am not arguing FOR home schooling ... I agree with your statement relating it to truancy!

[TahitiNut]

51. I do not believe individuals/families have a right or entitlement ...

... to unilaterally redefine public services, including public education, according to their own individual whims or caprices.

All funding for public education is administered according to overall enrollment - including athletic programs, arts and crafts programs, and Chemistry class. Federal funding is distributed according to enrollment - which has a very specific definition, including attendance.

Extracurricular activities are administered and managed in a manner that not all full-time students are guaranteed unconditional participation. Participation is conditional, even for enrolled students! Even among those students enrolled, academic and deportment standards exist. Thus, I'd be adamantly opposed to extending the resources of such programs to school-age children who're not enrolled and not subject to the same standards. It's an equity issue.

[etherealtruth]

70. Public services are constantly being redefined ...

... by students with special or different needs (in this case I am not necessarily talking about the traditional "special ed." students).

Gifted children are offered classes at different schools to meet their needs in a particular area (if the school itself does not offer adequate services) ... Academic requirements are waived for student athletes who do not have the "resources" to perform in mainstreamed classes. Graduation requirements can be changed for certain kids... I could go on and on ... (I do not not know what Michigan standards are for testing home schooled children, but they may well be applied ...)

We cannot protect children from all the poor choices their parents make, nor can we appoint ourselves arbiters of what constitutes a good/poor decision, in all cases. We can provide services to kids in this situation.

[JusticeForAll]

86. Here's my take...

I am gay, don't have kids and never will.

Frankly, I would not want my hypothetical kids participating in extra-curricular activities where home-schooled students participate. The teachers who are also the coaches and monitors for these activities have no other basis for evaluating these kids' activities, emotional behaviors and would add a slew of difficulties in trying to get rid of the bad apples in the group, whereas the publicly educated kids have plenty of checks and balances in the system to exclude them from activities for bad behavior (bad grades, wise-asses, etc.) Extra-curricular activities are rewards for students who go to public school, and only for those who do well, and behave to a standard. What standard do you propose for these unknown entities you've just added?

I hope this argument makes sense...just allowing these home-schooled kids to particpate in the extra-curricular activities is going to open up a whole unintended can of worms and a slew of responsibilities that educators should not have to be responsible for. Home-schooled kids are completely the responsibility of the home that schools them. They can participate in the many non-school public activities their community offers.

[etherealtruth]

144. Your argument is very clear ...

... I don't believe whether one has (or ever will) have kids or not is relevant, being a member of the community is relevant.

I am in an odd position in this argument, because I despise homeschooling and find some of the more common reasons for doing so detrimental to society as a whole! Therefore, I am having difficulty arguing my position with any passion or zeal.

So, in response, I would argue that the control that would be exerted is the threat of exclusion from the activity if the behavior displayed is unacceptable.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

185. This is really discriminatory of you

"I would not want my hypothetical kids participating in extra-curricular activities where home-schooled students participate." WTF??!! Do you really think all home schooled kids are children of religious whackos?

[JusticeForAll]

212. You're damn right it's discriminatory

and it's FAIRLY discriminatory because of the reasons I presented, not because of the belief you assume I have of homeschooled children.

get a clue before you start passing judgment on others please.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

221. I have a clue, do you?

When's the last time you actually spent some time observing what goes on in public schools? That is where you'll find the bullies and the wise-asses. "Plenty of checks and balances"? Because of the way things are in the system, the teachers are so overloaded that they cannot (in the case of good teachers) or DO not (in the case of bad teachers) keep track of the bad behavior of the "bad apples" in their classrooms.

[dsc]

208. what planet are you on?

In theory that sounds great but in practice unless a kid is truely awful he is going to be able to play sports. If he or she is good at sports he can be an axe murderer and still play. I really don't see much weeding out at any school where I have taught or attended.

[LostinVA]

217. This is no longer true at many schools

My niece and nephew's HS requires a 2.5 for ANY sport, club, activity. One of my colleague's kids goes to a local HS where it's 3.0. No excuses, no exceptions. And, a detention automatically takes away those privileges, too.

[jdj]

210. not only that but they are being home schooled for a reason

many if not most are religiously educated to avoid stuff like evolution and sex ed or whatever.

why the hell should they be able to pick and choose reality and then get all the benefits of public education while being practicing some sort of separatism a la carte. forget that.

the monkeys and the dodge ball go hand in hand.

[TahitiNut]

88. "Special needs" do not equal "special wants."

An appetite does not automatically create an entitlement. Does a person get an ashtray in the classroom because he "needs" to smoke? He pays taxes. Home-schooled students have exercised their privilege to opt out. Fine. They have an entitlement to opt in if they want to take the "good" with the "bad" ... and there's not a damned thing that stops any public school student from receiving supplemental education.

I see it as covetousness. The "I'd rather do it myself" crowd is hedging their bets ... having cake and eating it, too.

I find it remarkable that a public school system with a 30::1 student/teacher ratio does so well compared to a home school with a 1::1 or 2::1 student/teacher ratio.

Can you imagine how well public education would do with a similar ratio??

I'm personally not at all in favor of further enabling non-participation in the public education system while, at the same time, adding a time and resources burden on the staff that's better allocated to participants.

[etherealtruth]

150. Ah, but must my kids accept every service offered by their school?

OK, first thing I must say: I am in an odd position in this argument, as I despise homeschooling and find some of the more common reasons for doing so detrimental to society as a whole! Those that know and love me would be amused that I have taken this position. Therefore, I am having difficulty arguing my position with any passion or zeal. In my heart, I DO believe that my position is "the right" one, though.

In this country we have the expectation that "our" children have available to them, a free public education through grade twelve. It is an entitlement. There are other entitlement programs; it is not required that one ACCEPT everything one is entitled to. It would be helpful to "the system" if the extremely affluent would not accept the SS disbursements they are entitled to... My children would not eat a school lunch if paid to, they are entitled to purchase a lunch (all school lunches are subsidized) and their refusal does not exclude them from purchasing milk or anything else. The "home school" parents are turning down most of what they are entitled to, but not all.

I clearly understand the difference between "needs" and "wants," in this case it is a semantic argument. One could easily argue that the children in question NEED the services requested...

Your "ash tray" argument is disingenuous. A more relevant point might be: Do we allow children with certain religious beliefs to take particular days of religious significance (holidays) off without penalty. Yes we do.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

184. Please don't generalize re "their" motivation

I know a number of people who home school--some for religious reasons(which is frightening to me, too) and some because they are not happy with our school system for completely different reasons, some of which I completely agree with.

[etherealtruth]

200. I realize I was generalizing ...

in most of my posts I tried to state it this way, "...some of the more common reasons for doing so detrimental to society as a whole!" (copied directly from a post.)

Certainly not all are motivated by protecting their children from us "worldly heathens," other races... Those reasons are detrimental for society.

I understand there may be a plethora of other reasons that are not sinister.

My point in all of this is that even if I feel the motivation is suspect and I question if they are acting in their kids best interest, the kids should be allowed to participate. (I must also point out, as I have in other posts-----I can not argue with great passion because in many cases their motivation offends me---note many not all)

[eowyn_of_rohan]

207. I thought the way you do

when a sister of mine began home schooling her children about 15 years ago. I thought she was ruining their lives. She, BTW, has a teaching degree, which I thought at least gave the kids a chance. She taught them through elementary and middle high levels then put them in a public high school. They socialized with kids in their (liberal) church group, joined the 4-H and raised pets, took sports and music lessons, and have many friends. Both kids are turning out fine, and I am proud of them. The older one is on the varsity hockey team and popular. He's graduating next month with honors. In some ways I think they have had a more "normal" upbringing than most kids in the public schools...for many reasons.

I am not a parent, but some of the things going on in/with our public school system today offend me (and still I have to pay taxes).

[Ravenseye]

50. That just sealed it for me - Academic requirements

At first I was thinking that home schooled kids should be allowed to join the public high school's play or sports teams.

But the academic requirements....thats the key.

What could happen if they allow this?

Certain football players being 'homeschooled' so they dont' have to meet their requirements educationally in order to play.

Things like that.

You can't have one set of rules imposed on one group in order to participate and an entirely separate set on another group. Home schooled kids essentially have no rules imposed on them, versus the public school.

No this would seriously hamper education in this country if it were allowed.

[October]

64. People homeschool for different reasons

Homeschooled kids most certainly have rules.

My daughter is an aspiring ballerina, studying 20 hours a week for ballet. We were shocked when she asked to be homeschooled, because she has lots of friends, participated in activities, etc.

Well, now we homeschool her. We're not religious, not anti-public school -- it's just an efficient use of time for us, so she can pursue her art.

I don't know that it's right for everyone, but this year:

We have moved her up in Geometry.
She completed her Health Course early, so added Russian to her curriculum. (She's already studying French.)
Her portfolio of work has to be handed into the district in June.
An evaluator (certified teacher) has to oversee her studies -- comes to the house.
She's taking courses at the Community College next year.
She's read 21 books since July.
She will have completed the following textbooks: Health, Science, World History. (We never completed a textbook when I went to high school.)

Anyway, it's been a good decision for us. No one is skirting academic requirements. Her former teachers have been most supportive, as has the district.

[Ravenseye]

67. They don't have them imposed on them from a central authority

Look don't get defensive. I'm not saying that everyone that gets homeschooled is running around smoking crack and hanging out in front of the 7/11 all day. I'm sure you're giving your daughter a really good education.

I'm just saying that if you are homeschooled there is little that an outside body can do to regulate your education. If the local public school has educational standards that their students have to meet in order to participate in extracurricular activities it would be unfair for a homeschool student to be allowed to participate. They wouldn't have to meet any criterea as far as a grade point average.

You may be an honest homeschooler, but if they allowed any homeschooled individual to particpate in extracurricular activities, even if they required a certain grade point average, there would be unscrupulous people who pull their students out of the high school in order to keep them on the football team. Give them straigh A's at home no matter how little they might learn there (not your home...an unscrupulous person's home) and keep them on the team.

That make sense?

[October]

113. Oh, I'm truly not feeling defensive

If anything, I'm more astounded than anyone that I'm homeschooling.

I understand fully your points.

[starwolf]

111. Your point is well taken

Too many think that home schooling is the barefoot mother teaching her kids out of the KJV bible around the kitchen table. Its much more than that, or at least can be. Also few realize that many jurisdictions have imposed a number of restrictions on home schooling to actively discourage it. I would be interested to know how many home schoolers are doing it for religious reasons and how many to support special circumstances like yours.

I'm a privateer in the computer biz. At the last place I worked one of my coworkers was home schooling for medical reasons. I was asked (and paid a stipend) to teach a computer science course to 6 home schoolers. Best class I have ever taught. Self motivated kids who wanted to learn and knew how to pull things out of books. I learned a lot about home schooling in the process. Its as diverse a community as the progressive movement. Those who claim home schooling is just for the fundie/ignorant are showing their ignorance and little more.

[October]

122. Yes, and there's a new movement

called "unschooling." Actually, not sure how "new" it is...but it's new to me. Very interesting.

There are myriad reasons for homeschooling. I admit to having reservations initially...but now that I'm doing it, I love it. My younger son, however, is enjoying school (public), so it's not for him at this point (if ever).

Also, it used to be hard to find a curriculum that wasn't faith-based...now it's easy.

My daughter is extremely self-disciplined. It wouldn't work well at all if she weren't. She can study ballet freely...and this year she auditioned for and was invited into a summer program with a major ballet company in New England.

My husband is agnostic and I'm just a free spirit. He's a professional pilot and I'm a professional artist. Our household is unique. My daughter did a fabulous report on Islam this year...she would not have done that in school, I can tell you that!!!

Thanks for sharing, btw. I've grown used to the backlash against homeschoolers, so I appreciate your supportive comments and understanding.

[girl gone mad]

176. In theory, I like "unschooling"..

but I think it may be too lax for all but the most gifted and motivated students.

As far as homeschooling goes, I'm seriously considering it for my son next year. We're going to try it a bit over the summer and see how it goes. He's very bright and very bored with school. He is interested in subjects that aren't offered at his public school (he's been taking Chinese lessons and building robots). Also, our family would like to be able to travel.

From doing research, I know there are quite a few progressive homeschoolers. It isn't simply fundie territory. I have also known quite a few artists, actors and writers from liberal families who were homeschooled. I think coming from an environment where creativity is never stifled probably contributed to their success.

Good luck with your daughter.

[October]

194. Thank you so much

It's been such a positive experience in our household. Our daughter has plenty of opportunities for socialization, which I mention because it seems like the latest "fear" among critics of homeschooling is that these kids aren't socialized. Kids can be isolated in a public school setting too.

My daughter is on stage, talks to professional dancers, parents, audience members -- and she and her peers bond completely spending so many hours together. She has also maintained contact with her former schoolmates. And...going away each summer, she meets and rooms with dancers from around the country/world.

I am thrilled with the teacher and district support. They're proud and supportive of my daughter's ambitions and talent. I didn't know what to expect, and was actually a little hesitant when I first approached their office. Turns out, I had nothing to worry about. They had to approve the curriculum we chose ahead of time...all the textbooks, etc., and I had to swear an affidavit. We keep a log of her hours, schedule, reading, etc. It's a thing of beauty. This may sound so corny, but it was inspirational meeting with our district -- I truly felt we were working as a team or something.

Initially, it was difficult to find a secular, progressive curriculum, but we succeeded in finding one after much research online. We were even able to customize it.

Our public school system has been swinging a little to the hard right in the last few years...that's not why I'm doing this...but it's ironic that the fundie-types originally left because of progressive liberalism in the public school system, and now progressive parents are leaving because of the extreme flag-waving, nationalistic tendencies brought on by the Christian right.

We are a family of artists. My son plays 3 instruments (he'll be 8 this weekend), my daughter does ballet, my husband wrote a novel, and I'm a artist (painter). I'd love to home-school my son...but at this stage, he's very happy in our school district, so I'm cool with that.

I worry a bit about my daughter's Science Lab experience...so I contacted our local community college...and we'll be able to enroll her next year in their home-schooler enrichment classes...and/or their biology classes, depending on how she scores on their tests.

My dear friend (public school teacher) told me just yesterday that kids can learn in months at home the same amount taught in school. Of course it all depends on the home, kids, parents...but the same can be applied to the school setting...teachers vary too.

Anyway, I'm rambling. I don't mean to preach. Sorry about that.

I wish all good luck to you too.

[fishwax]

163. Congrats!

I hope that I'm in a position where I can home school my kids. I certainly support public schools (my wife, in fact, is a public school teacher), but I think it quite possible that, should we be able to afford it financially, we could provide our children a better education by teaching them ourselves.

That said, though, I don't think that those who do homeschool should have access to the resources of the public school system. They aren't responsible for meeting the same academic standards, and they siphon resources without being included in the "head count" that determines how much funding public schools receive.

But whenever I hear of someone who homeschools for individual reasons, rather than right-wing/religious reasons, I'm open to the discussion. It sounds like you've made it work quite well, and good luck with the process from here on out.

[October]

195. Thank you

I know what you mean. I feel very grateful indeed to be able to do this. I really do.

My cousin just had her first baby. She is a first grade teacher now on maternity leave...she's actually considering homeschooling. I am stunned. Not sure she can do it financially, though, which makes me sad.

My daughter once played on the field hockey team...when she was in school...and I don't know how I feel on that issue. I could probably argue both sides. I'm sure there are many reasons why it's a bad idea, and vice-versa. I'm still listening.

It's been an amazing year.

[Catt03]

174. Interesting

Thanks

Have to admit that I have the image of someone home schooled as being forced to do so due to parents objections about something. Also have thought that parents of homeschoolers do it mostly for religious reasons or refusal to accept diversity.

Happy to know that my assumptions are not always correct.

[October]

196. I know what you're saying

I too felt awkward initially.

My daughter went away to a professional ballet company's summer program and met a lot of really great friends last summer. She asked a lot of questions and came home and sat us down and asked if we would home-school her so that she could pursue her dream.

I was immediately open to it. She was richly more informed than us on the subject, and so answered a lot of our initial (fear-based) concerns. Once we let go a little of our own preconceived notions and prejudices or whatever...we took a deep breath and kind of dove in. Scary indeed at first.

This year, she'll be going away again for the summer, as I mentioned.

She said she never wants to go back to the school system. She feels she's learning so much more. She loves this. She's nearly 15. What she loves most: "I can ask all the questions I want...I don't have to stop because someone is waiting...or we have to move on...I can ask till I know or understand." She said that with tremendous relief in her voice. That was interesting.


Edited out one word. Typo.

[gorbal]

153. School isn't for everyone

Public school just isn't for everyone. It's almost like there isn't a choice presented in some places. I absolutely hated going to school and wouldn't want any child of mine going through the misery I did, but at the same time I would prefer they were socialized and were able to spend time with other kids. If they could find a way to organize funding for this I say go for it.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

216. I homeschool...

and my child's on a soccer team with other homeschooled kids. We're fortunate enough to have a group of parents of various backgrounds who share their talents as athletes, musicians, artists, scientists, historians, and so many more.

The kind of "socialization" the local public school system offers is precisely the reason for my wanting him to learn at home.

[LostinVA]

22. I agree. However

I don't think taxpayers should pay for private schools and their equipment, activities, etc. And, to me, home schoolers are part of a "private school." They are NOT part of the school community. Yes, they should be socialized and educated, it's why I believe we as citizens have a duty to pay for good public schools. I'll be more than glad to pay more taxes every year to improve the schools. However, I ain't paying for no stinkin' private schools...

[etherealtruth]

34. Oh I agree completely----No PUBLIC $$ for private schools! n/t

[eowyn_of_rohan]

188. Most agree--No $ for private schools

but many do not agree with the way their tax $ is being spent in PUBLIC schools either, which is one large reason why people are choosing to pull their kids out and home school them.

[renaissanceguy]

45. I'm not so sure they'll be socialized well...

After all, the rest of the other kids will be part of the same school, have their cliques, and have so much more in common than they would with the home-schooled kid. Besides, the teams/activities have to abide by school rules and school standards. So, if those standards, faculty, students, etc. are not good enough for the parent to send the child to school there, then they should not be "good" enough to send the child to activities there.


http://www.cafepress.com/liberalissues/466053

[etherealtruth]

You make good points ....

...but, I think the kids will achieve some benefit through their exposure to "others".

Once again, I am NO fan of home schooling --- however, if it is a legal option I would like to see these kids exposed / involved with other kids in the community

[Ms_Mary]

126. I've seen it go both ways. I know several homeschooled children

In one family, the homeschooling was very permissive. It was interesting b/c the middle daughter was pulled from school b/c of her parents "moral" racist issues, yet she was given free reign to smoke, drink and screw around. The younger daughter was yanked out along with her sister and she really felt socially isolated. Both would have been much better off in public school.

The other families do quite well. Two of the local homeschool moms run the local Girl Scout division and do a lot in the community. One family I knew quite well moved last year, but before that, I saw them a lot in my store. The 9 year old daughter was reading and doing math well above her age level. She got to come do a little "internship" with me at the store b/c she wanted to learn about business. She was a pleasure to have here. Both of the families I am close to have very bright, well-adjusted children. They are a little socially innocent but whether you think that's good or bad just depends on how you look at it. I can't say they suffer for the lack of cliqueishness (creating my own word there).

One family has teens who have been homeschooled all the way through school. They are bright and pleasant kids. They've taken some supplemental classes at the local high school and community college and been in the top of their classes there. They seem fine socially and very well rounded.
My own son is in public school and it's a good fit for us.

[Rockholm]

63. There is the rub re: "Member of the community"

By choosing to home school, the are NOT members of the community, at least the school community.
I pay tremendous taxes in my town. We have excellent public schools. That is a benefit to the community and keeps property values high. I do not have kids but I know the price of bad schools, so I suffer thru the taxes.
Home school kids need to stay at home. Maybe they can start their own teams.

[etherealtruth]

75. I abhor home schooling in MOST situations ...

My point is that these kids , while not part of the school community, are part of your community. Their ability to be productive socialized members of the community matters. This inclusion is but a small step....

[rodeodance]

19. Catholic (and other religions) pay property taxes and other taxes-and

when send kids to private (religous school)--they pay tuition also.

[KurtNYC]

36. If homeschooled students can drop in for the fun stuff

then why shouldn't students at schools which have cut arts and football be able to go to the program at the nearest public school that does?

It seems like this law would say students from one school (home school) can cherry-pick what they want from other schools if it is not offered by theirs.

[alcuno]

53. Private school students can "drop in" to my public school algebra class.

That's right. Because the mathematics program at the local Catholic school is so sub-standard, I have two of their students in my middle school class of 30 - making 32. Afterwards, they toddle back to the Catholic school.

[elehhhhna]

55. Excellent question!

[MollyStark]

47. That is their choice

no one has to send their kids to private school.

[mtnester]

169. However, in our state, if you go to private school, or open enroll in

another adjoining school district, your school property tax dollars go to the private/open enrollment school.

I am ambivalent on home schoolers and school district athletics....there has to be a way to do it to verify the academics. Ohio is pretty strict on what your GPA is WEEK TO WEEK in order to play. I would not want to see athletes dodge the requirements that the rest of the kids have to meet to participate, but, the home schooled child who is able to meet those requirements (however that can be done) should be allowed to participate, as these programs are mostly (in Ohio) property tax funded, and the home school parents pay that just like the rest of us. Many people I know who home schooled had their children either participate in YMCA sports, or their children went to public school during their high school years.

However, I am FIRMLY against private school students being allowed to participate in public school athletics, clubs, band, etc. Do that at your own school.

[ProgressiveConn]

28. I believe athletic programs and extra curricular to be a significant part

of every child's development. If the parents choose to home school their children for whatever reason the child should still have access to these programs. I fear backlash directed at the extremists who tend to make up a large portion of the homeschooling parents. We should be interested in their children's best interests just like we look out for the interests of every child attending the public school.

The difference in your argument and mine is that I don't believe you pay your property taxes as a means of educating YOUR children. You pay it to educate the children of your community. That is why the argument for vouchers fails.

Oh and odds are you would benefit from the facilities you describe. I know the fields here are used for everything from little league to adult softball leagues.

[TahitiNut]

32. It's NOT my argument that school taxes create a taxpayer entitlement.

To the contrary, I eschew that argument - which is why I countered with a reductio ad absurdum argument. Yes, that's also why I'm implacably opposed to vouchers. Public education is a strict entitlement, not a general right. As an entitlement, it has uniform standards of equity. Enrollment and attendance are part of the standard. I do not view public education as a "buffet" - I view the programs as organic and interrelated.

Personally, I regard "home-schooling" as nothing more nor less than truancy. YMMV :shrug:

[ProfessorPlum]

115. A lot of people are honest brokers with their homeschooling

They work their kids hard academically and provide opportunities in art, music, and physical activity. I teach my kids at home, and it has nothing to do with religion - my son is very bright, but the school had no enrichment activities for him for at least 4 years, and he was getting bored and beginning to lose his love of learning. My wife and I work very hard to keep that spark alive in all of our kids. It has been expensive, time-consuming, and a bit of a pain to do it - but also very rewarding.

I'd go easy with the wholesale bashing of a group of people. Our mileage certainly has varied from truancy. I'm sure there are a lot of deadbeats hiding out under the umbrella of homeschooling, but there are a lot of conscientious people working very hard to make it a good experience for a great many kids. So ease up on the bashing, OK?

[TahitiNut]

135. I'm not about to rehash all the arguments regarding home-schooling.

At this point, the vast majority are entrenched in their positions, all with varying degrees of investigation, comprehension, and self-interest. I'll make but one comment: participation itself is educational, and not the least of which involves our role in the education of our fellow citizens.

JFK said, "Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country." I could paraphrase that and say, "Ask not what your public schools can do for you; ask what you can do for your public schools." Every student is a teacher. Every student teaches other students. There can be no learning without teaching. What we learn is our personal responsibility and it cannot be delegated. "Boredom" is a personal problem, and one that presents a challenge in and of itself. In an "entertainment" culture, it's a plague. Tearing up the quiz paper isn't a substitute for solving the prolems presented.

I do not argue 'rights'; I argue wisdom and responsibility. Everyone has the 'right' to do 'wrong.' :shrug: (I've never met anyone who didn't believe in their own choices.)

[Name removed]

140. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[oneighty]

48. It Takes A Village?

It takes a village to educate children and bring to adult-hood the children of the village?

Now let me think. Who wrote that book? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

180

[Ravenseye]

71. I think that taxes are a non issue

I'm not even thinking about taxes.

I just think that if you let someone who is homeschooled particpate in extracurricular activities you're just asking for a lower educational standard. Not because current homeschoolers are recieving less of an education, but because if allowed the system would be exploited by unscrupulous individuals.

Do we want high school athletics to go the way of college athletics and simply let the football players do nothing but play football and not get any education? Or do we want to provide an education to EVERY citizen of this country.

Let homeschoolers particpate and some athletes will become 'home schooled' simply to keep them on the team because they can't pass history.

[jwcomer]

65. I have no children...

.. and I would be happy for my tax dollars to be spend on extracurricular activites for home schooled children - regardless of their parents reasons for homeschooling. After all, this isn't about the parents it is about the children. And of all the things my tax dollars go towards, this is about the last one that I would ever complain about.

-Walton Comer

[Missy Vixen]

124. Isn't this the truth?

>Hell, I'm childless; I think I'd like to play baseball with some friends. I think I'll go demand use of the school's athletic equipment and baseball fields. :shrug:<

We also pay and pay and pay, and will never have children in the local educational system.

I own a craft store. I wish I had a dollar for every homeschooling parent who believes that it is "wrong" for me to charge money for classes, and has visited to my shop to lecture me about it. After all, I should be doing this as a "service to the community", shouldn't I?

Julie

[fishwax]

159. good point (n/t)

[MollyStark]

46. They keep money from public schools by homeschooling

but you expect the school to be able to provide services for them in other areas. No way is that fair. Yes, these people pay property taxes, but the school doesn't get the money because their kids are not in school.
Schools are strapped for cash as it is.

[ProfessorPlum]

116. Nobody keeps money from public schools by homeschooling

You are seriously misinformed. When someone takes their kids out of school, they continue to pay taxes. Therefore, the school district has more money for each kid that stays in the system. It is a great boon for a school district to have lots of homeschooled kids. They get the taxes, but don't have to provide the service.

Get it?

[thinkingwoman]

72. I homeschool because

my genius IQ children got nothing from these red state christianity laden public "schools" that surround us.

Do you have a "negative" opinion about why I homeschool?

There is a staggering amount of misinformation and disinformation on this site about homeschooling. No matter how often progressive homeschoolers post about this issue, a serious bias persists. It's as if some people want to cling to their beliefs despite all evidence to the contrary.

As for public school sports participation for homeschoolers...my taxes pay for those schools whether my kids attend or not. I should get to utilize them as little or as much as I want.

[Thor_MN]

193. I think "I" pay the same taxes and don't have any kids so BFD.

People pay taxes for public schools because it's the right thing for society. It has nothing to do with the "family" paying for their own children. If a family decides to send it's children to private school or home school, that's fine, it's their decision.

But unless I get the choice to not pay for public schools, neither do they.

[LostinVA]

218. Absolutely, Thor

I also don't have children,a nd never will. But, like Thor, I consider it a duty of all citizens to pay for public education. I would gladly pay a bit more in taxes to have even better public education. I don't expect to use the school's facilities because I am not a student enrolled there, nor do I have any children enrolled there. I don't believe all of the facilities are for the community;'s use, just for the school community's use. At least, the school and it's students should get first dibs.

[RayOfHope]

44. You are right, in my state it's called ADA

Average Daily Attendance. The school gets a certain amount of money for each student in attendance that day. That's why some smaller districts close down where there are a large number of students absent to do illness. It's not cost effective (in their opinion) to keep school open for that day (and it gives the student population time to recover).

[wildmanj]

2. home schooled

what a bunch of jerks

[ProgressiveConn]

3. I don't think this is a bad thing at all.

As long as they are paying for their children to attend the schools anyhow why shouldn't they get to benefit from the sports programs etc? This just makes the voucher argument even less viable.

[TahitiNut]

11. See #9.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=1366125&mesg_id=1366149

[displacedtexan]

4. This looks like "Law Suits Waiting To Happen" to me.

The first time a home schooler gets teased for striking out in a baseball game or feels persecuted when not cast in the leading role in a school play, watch out!

This has DISASTER written all over it.

[keopeli]

5. Fine, then let's all be capitalists

Let's make sports and arts available to homeschooled kids as long as they pay for it. Then, let's charge a huge amount - justifiable when you consider the real costs involved - but, 90% of the income must go directly to ALL teacher salaries. Only kids that attend the school full-time are eligible to take the classes (arts & sports) for free. All others must pay a tuition, and they must have lived in the area for 2 years.

[TheFarseer]

78. exactly what I was going to suggest

just a modification on pay-to-play. If you're not enrolled in the school then pay to play.

[Demit]

6. Hey, I pay school taxes and I don't have any kids. Shouldn't I get some

benefit too? This is discrimination!!!

[ixion]

7. hmmmm... that doesn't sit right...

I think a better solution would be to put together a 'home-school' league.

[LostinVA]

14. I was just gonna write that

This is a perfect solution.

[KittyWampus]

82. That's MY Assessment As Well. Start Programs W/ Other Homeschoolers

get together with other families homeschooling to do stuff. Use public parks to play in, or school facilities when they're not in use by enrolled students.

[republicansareevil]

117. What if you want your kids to have a broader perspective?

What if you want to give your kids the best academic education you can and decide that homeschooling is the way to do it? What if you also want to have your kids interact with a wider spectrum of kids than you would if they just associated with other homeschoolers? Or what if the homeschoolers in your area were mainly in the religious fundamentalist homeschool tradition, and you were in the liberal/hippie homeschool tradition?

[eowyn_of_rohan]

189. Why should home schoolers only be socializing with other

home schoolers? There are boy and girl scouting organizations, 4-H, YMCA/YWCA, church groups, city leagues, special interest clubs,etc.

[Bridget Burke]

10. Schools get funds for their total enrollment.

They don't get money for a homeschooled student. Would a small fee paid by the homeschooled make up the difference?

Students must meet certain academic standards to participate in sports & many other extracurricular activities. The homeschoolers can just bring in the "A" their moms gave them & qualify!

Funds for programs like art, drama & music are dwindling fast. Why should room be made for part-time students?

Many homeschool groups organize activities for their students. Let them continue to do so. Unless they allow the public schoolers to participate--for a "small fee!"

[vonSchloegel]

12. Home Schoolers

Are doing the Public Schools a favor by lowering class sizes, and keeping ideas like creation science and intelligent design at home where it belongs.

Extra curricular activities are not a reward for spending time in a class room, they are publicly funded activities that are supposed to enrich a community culturally.

[Bridget Burke]

18. Actually, extracurricular activities are often a reward....

You get decent grades in some boring subjects so you can do the stuff you really like.

Schools get funds from class size. Fewer students--fewer funds.

Let the homeschoolers put on plays & concerts. Let them organize some teams.

[LostinVA]

23. My niece just became a cheerleader

And students at her school have to keep a 2.75 GPA to participate in ANY activities. It's a privilege. So, how are home schoolers going to be graded for this? By having a 4.0 Mommy gave them from her Fundy textbook?

I know some DUers home school their kids,a nd I'm not speaking of all home schoolers. However, one of my crazy religious relatives home schools her kids, and they are so ignorant. Seriously -- they no nothing, because SHE teaches them, and she's an idiot.

[ProfessorPlum]

123. Not all people homeschool because they are religous whackjobs

though they are in a great majority.

I like to joke that we homeschool because we don't want our kids exposed to all the religion in public school. It used to be funnier, but now it is becoming true.

[SoCalDem]

16. Republicans play "Twister" with loopholes..

They make legislation to put them into place, and then use them with a vengeance.. They know that the only "way around" this is to charge EXTRA for those activities, and as long as "their taxes" go to support education, they feel like their kids should participate in public school "fun" activities, yet not have to avail themselves of the "educational part of it".. It;s the 1 from column A and 1 from column B.. It;s all about weakening the system from the botom up.. they are nibbling at the roots, in hopes that the plant will die.:...bastards..

[fasttense]

31. I can pick and choose what school classes and programs my child

uses at the public schools. The home schoolers can pick and choose what school program they want. Sooo, if I think they my child should not take biology because they are teaching intelligent design, I can pull my kid out of that class?(Which I would do if they did.) And I'm great in English and literature, I think I'll teach my kids that and only enroll them in the math and some science. I'll let my kids skip first period where they recite the pledge of allegiance and just let them go to the other classes. Besides, I don't like getting up so early in the morning so I'll let them skip the first two periods. I need my son to help on the farm and he gets nothing out of his afternoon math classes so I'll pull him from those classes. If the home schoolers can pick and choose what classes their kids take, so can I.

[SoCalDem]

93. That's the 'recipe" for 'privatization" of public schools

which is exactly what repubes want.. :(

[Trillo]

17. Another thing to consider is how this appears to someone like me

who chose not to have kids, but whose property taxes fund public schools whether they have them or not.

[Bridget Burke]

21. I'm childless but don't mind funding public schools.

Actually, I'm a renter. But my rent goes up when taxes go up--that's a real fact.

Society needs excellent public schools. And the "extra" programs can be what keeps some kids interested. Sports, yes. But also art & music--subjects now threatened by lack of funding.

Homeschoolers deny schools funding. They are free to educate their children as they wish--using their own facilities. I don't use the school playgrounds or art studios, either--I don't expect to do so.

[NashVegas]

29. Same Here

I've also got to wonder what effect this would have on team unity.

I have very little doubt an ultimate, unstated, goal is to further erode public school funds.

[Trillo]

30. Here's the logic

1. Homeschoolers deny public schools funds.

2. Homeschoolers parents pay taxes to support the schools
3. Childless people pay taxes to support the schools

Note: everybody's paying, but the schools aren't getting the money. Sounds like financial scamming. So what do schools do?

4. Schools punish some more children.

[ProfessorPlum]

125. How do homeschoolers deny schools funding?

The tax base stays the same, while the number of students they have to serve goes down.

As you say, you pay for school through your rent, but you don't have children. By your own argument, YOU are denying your school funding just as much as a homeschooler.

Think about what you are writing before you do so.

[tyedyeto]

134. Much of the funding for public schools comes from the state and fed ..

I am not an expert on how the public schools are financed, but I do know that in many states (but not all, I think??) average daily attendance is what most school districts rely on for funding. The more students enrolled within a district, the more $$ that disrict gets. This may not be true everywhere in the US. So, when a child is homeschooled, yes, the school districts have less $$ in their coffers.

Edit to say that it doesn't bother me at all if a school district is receiving less money because someone wants to homeschool their children. Parents have a right to educate their children at home, in a public school or in a private school. Just trying to point out that districts do indeed lose money for each student not enrolled in a public school.

[ProfessorPlum]

138. but they have less service to provide

They may lose some money because the head count is lower, but my money is still going into a state account to be redistributed elsewhere. AND, they are certainly not losing the amount of money that I am paying in property/school taxes every year.

Homeschooling is as damaging to school funds as people who don't have kids - they still pay school taxes but don't enroll anyone.

If your argument were true, then wouldn't it be cheaper for schools to have all childless taxpayers stop paying school taxes? Think! It just doesn't make any sense.

[jmowreader]

166. School funding is on a per-student basis

Everyone who's got a kid in a public school gets to fill out a form every year. They've got to say how many kids they have in school, their names and ages, the grade they're in and so on.

If you don't fill it out and return it, the school doesn't get paid for your child.

Homeschoolers don't fill this form out. Nor do private school students.

[ProfessorPlum]

225. Yes, but . . .

the public school system as a whole, whether on just a local or a state-wide basis, gets my tax money and doesn't have to provide services for my kids. Therefore, there is more $ available for each child in public school. If anything, I am making more money available per student in the public school, plus I am providing the community with educated kids at my own cost of money and time.

Am I right? Surely, not all funding for schools is calculated by multiplying the number of enrolees by some fixed amount.

I really don't see that this argument makes any sense at all. The only way it makes sense is if

1. What a school gets "paid for my children" is more than it costs to provide services to them

AND

2. Headcount-based money from the state is the only source of income for a school

Are there any school districts where both of these conditions apply? I doubt it.

[jmowreader]

226. It makes perfect sense to multiply enrollees by a fixed amount

Consider two schools: St. Maries High School in Idaho (where I went) and Columbine High School (where Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris went). St. Maries High School was designed to hold 400 students--133 in each of the three classes that attend. It generally runs around 330 to 350 and serves an area that has about 4000 people in it. Columbine High School has an enrollment approximately equal to the entire population of eastern Benewah County.

Columbine obviously needs more money than St. Maries. How to calculate? The only way that makes sense is on a per-head basis.

[ProfessorPlum]

227. Yes, but there are also fixed costs that accrue on a per-school basis

as well.

You seem to be deliberately missing my point, here, though, which is this:

When you remove a child from a public school, you continue to pay state taxes into funds for education, and you continue to pay local school taxes for your local school district. The amount of money, total, available to public schools and for education, remains the same. The way it is distributed may change somewhat depending on attendance trends for particular schools. But the pot of money stays the same.

At the same time, the number of children needing services goes down. There are, overall, fewer children competing for the same amount of money. Therefore, spending per student in the public schools goes up.

Also, if it is done conscientiously, teaching kids at home provides the benefit of an educated populace at no cost to anyone else except the parents. So, society wins at that level too.

The only way I can see that teaching kids at home hurts a public school is that it removes active, conscientious families from the public school community, and I do admit that that is a loss. We remain active in our community and involved in fundraisers and other events at our local public school, and we also help other people deal with some of the issues we faced there, whether they choose to stay in or to teach at home.

But I don't think there is any way we've hurt our school financially. We have certainly spared them from having to actually teach our kids, which we had been asking them to do for years, which would have cost them money.

[MichiganVote]

24. Education is not a menu. Arts and Music are courses that students receive

a grade on. If homeschoolers take part in these items in a school system, they must become part of the head count. The problem in the idea of home schoolers taking part in alacart' education is that it then opens the door to private school students also saying, 'hey, I want to take Art or Music at this public facility as opposed to my private school which spends all its money on religion or some other program. PE is a course that is also required in most HS curricula. In some cases private school or home school parents want their kids to have band but then they don't want to abide by the requirements.

Its the Feds and the States that set out the requirements. And then of course, they change them to suit whomever is the biggest whiner.

As far as not having children,paying an education tax, and feeling that is unfair consider: Those persons who are handicapped who utilize a wheelchair, may never set their feet on a sidewalk. Does that mean that we must regulate our tax system so that they never pay for sidewalks but must pay for every handicapped accessible doorway?

[mondo joe]

90. And in MY school we raise funds to have an arts program.

Why should I be raising funds for a program for my school that kids who aren't even students will take a seat in?

This is a scarce resource - I'd rather have the teacher focus on the kids who are supposed to be there.

[LostinVA]

98. That's actually a good point I didn't think of

When I was in High School, I was on the girl's field hockey team, and we busted our asses off season to try to make money for certain things the school wouldn't buy of us, like cleats, and trips outside of our conference. We had bake sales, mowed loans, etc. to get these "extras." We were a team on and off the group. So... why should someone who didn't "earn" this right to participate come in? I also honestly think this would mess up the morale of the teams. And, those students earned the right through grades and participation to be a part of that team, club, activity, etc.

[jukes]

25. my observation

of the home-schoolers on my block, is that they won't stand a chance against kids that have competed w/ a Variety of oponents through the years. in sports, as in all other endeavers, home-schoolers lack the skills gained by healthy competition.

[Tesibria]

201. hmmm

that explains why my nephew (home-schooled from K-this year (at 16) was the star athelete (both from a skills perspective and a leadership perspective) in ever sport that he played in - in the public school - which, for the record, passed a special ordinance to enable him - a homeschooler - to play on their teams.

[ClintonTyree]

26. What happens....

when the "home schoolers" insist on group prayer before a basketball game, a track meet, and art class? They DO love their prayers and they LOVE making a public spectacle of it. Will they then sue the school to allow them their "right" to pray before, during or after these events?
To me, it sounds like an attempt of home schoolers to infiltrate public schools and force their "belief" system on them.
I thought one of the biggest reasons for "homeschooling" was for parents to keep their children away from all of the "evil" in public schools? Now they want to let their children mingle with the heathens? I smell a Trojan Horse here.

[kath]

162. Not all homeschoolers "love their prayers" - we're atheists and homeschool

and there are plenty of others like us.

You're really exposing your ignorance here.

[Tesibria]

202. bravo

the .. uhm .. knee-jerk "liberal" responses on this post are driving me bonkers.

THANX!!!

[tanyev]

27. They made their choice when they decided to home school.

I went to a Lutheran school and we were large enough to have sports teams, but not large enough to be competitive with the public schools. We did have our own league with other private schools in the area, but there were still quite a few families that chose to send their kids to public school so that their kids would be better prepared for sports at the high school level. Since I never did care about sports, I personally thought they were being silly, but it was something that was important to them.

[loro mi dicevano]

33. Yes. This is desperately needed.

If there's a problem with funds, require an extra fee from homeschoolers. But you cannot even imagine (unless you have been homeschooled yourself - I am currently, and really now, we're not all fundies!) how much everyone would benefit from this.

1) Socialization. Homeschool kids do not get the chance to socialize NEARLY enough. I speak from experience. Uff.
2) The local highschool has a babysitting extracurricular activity. Things like that (and also art and whatnot) would help the entire community.
3) Homeschoolers need variety in their schooling. I am so offended by those of you who are saying, "No, they'd better go to the public school if they want to participate in activities." You're absolutely wrong. Why did I start homeschooling? So I could get a good education. There was NOTHING in the public school left for me. Now, I am three years ahead of my grade level, but that doesn't make up for not being on the soccer team, or not being in the school orchestra and the benefits that come with those.

This is desperately needed, everywhere in the US. I'll tell ya, I made a very hard choice when I had to choose between "quality of education" and "the chance to be around people and socialize." Obviously, I picked quality of education. That doesn't mean the latter choice isn't as important for students.

[Bridget Burke]

40. You shouldn't have to lower yourself.

Why associate with students you define as badly educated? You chose "quality of education"--& public schools lost funding because of your absence. There's ALWAYS a problem with funds. Don't expect to barge in to the school you've scorned & take the benefits other students have been working towards for years. Oh, you'd pay a fee--how big of you.

Sports supposedly teach teamwork skills; in an orchestra, you learn to play more than solos. See if the other homeschoolers in your area can form a soccer team and an orchestra. Surely this will not be difficult for such superior folk.

[Chovexani]

119. Amen.

Bunch of arrogant frelling crybabies. They made the choice, now they should live with the consequences.

[cmd]

41. Perhaps you made the wrong choice

You can attend public school, participate in extracurricular activities and supplement the quality of education at home. Many very bright public school students do it every day.

[republicansareevil]

69. Maybe she doesn't want to sit in a dull classroom for six hours...

...and then come home to teach herself all the things she didn't learn in school. I understand the concerns about funding, and I'm still trying to get a handle on the ins and outs of that, but I don't understand this hostile attitude some DUers have toward homeschoolers. As someone who went to public school for 13 years, including kindergarten, I'm sick when I think of all the wasted time I spent in classrooms not learning anything useful or interesting. Not to mention the rigid factory-like atmosphere that was so unsuited to anyone with any creativity. I could read before I started school, but I still had to learn my letters in kindergarten. I know schools are starting to get a little better at providing gifted activities, but IMHO they're still not nearly as good as they could be. What about kids who have problems sitting still in a chair for long periods? Maybe some parents homeschool because they don't want their kids drugged up in order to function in a disfunctional environment. On DU, though, I see little apprreciation of these issues. It's either all about the fundamentalists or else it's this "You think you're too good for the rest of us?" attitude.

[Chovexani]

129. You know something?

When someone clearly expresses an "I think I'm too good for you public school peons" attitude in their post, all bets are off.

I was a gifted kid who spent my formative years in private school and then went to a specialized high school. You know what? High school was complete and utter hell for me, so much so that I left. Would I have been better off homeschooled? Probably not, because my mom was a single mother busting her ass on two jobs and that was a luxury we simply could not afford. Not to mention the fact that my mom wouldn't know what to do with me any more than my teachers did.

That's beside the point, though. Frankly I don't give a shit if or why anyone homeschools. I really don't. If you want to pull your kids out of the public schools, fine. I'm not coming down on anyone for doing what they think is best for their family. However, if you choose to make such a decision, you need to understand the consequences of making it and should be prepared suck it up and deal with them. Don't come crawling back to the system you've washed your hands of and then demand shit. To paraphrase the Big Dog, it's about the arrogance and sense of entitlement, stupid.

Besides, anyone who thinks such a policy won't be heartily abused by moron jocks who can't even tie the laces on their sneakers obviously never went to my high school.

[republicansareevil]

133. You really have a chip on your shoulder, don't you?

I didn't see this better-than-you attitude you claim to find in that post. I think you are projecting. You yourself went to private school growing up, but you act like anyone who homeschools must be rich if they can afford to do homeschool. :shrug:

You claim your public school experience was hell, but you scorn others for choosing an alternative? Why do you feel this need to punish homeschoolers?

[phylny]

183. I really have a hard time understanding why all these gifted

people are so bored in school.

Our oldest has an IQ of 142. She didn't even QUALIFY for the "gifted" program in any state - amazing, but true. Not once did she say she was bored in school, from Kindergarten through her first year of college. Why? She read, she studied other subjects, she took five AP classes in high school, she wrote poetry and wrote fantasy. She drew, she painted, she enjoyed anime. She attended three different school systems in three different states and not once came home from school to say she was bored.

Either we were spectacularly lucky, or she figured out how to get the most from public education while giving the most of herself.

[MollyStark]

58. You couldn't learn ahead of your class in public school?

I went to public school and I was also way ahead of my class in certain areas. So what?

[Tansy_Gold]

106. Same here, Molly,

and I went to school in an age when home schooling was simply not an option and I didn't have parents who were capable of providing "enrichment."

IMHO, it's not surprising that home schooled children are often way ahead of their peers academically. Who wouldn't be, in a one-to-one teaching situation where everything is geared to the student's pace? I'm sure there are just as many cases of home-schoolers who are behind grade level, either because they aren't quick learners, have behavior issues, are lazy and uninterested, or have parents who aren't qualified. We aren't hearing any of those stories here, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

One point that hasn't been raised -- I wonder how many of the home-school parents see sports in particular as a source of college scholarships and want to take advantage of it? A bright home-schooled student probably has a distinct academic advantage, but doesn't have the extra-curricular portfolio a public or even private school student would have.

To me, this is cherry-picking at its most blatant. Put me down on the side of "Opposed."

[tyedyeto]

66. Go to your local Girl Scouts if babysitting is that important............

"2) The local high school has a babysitting extracurricular activity."

They have a program for girls interested.

You choose to homeschool and because of that choice, why should you receive benefits? There are many other places to receive these extra classes other than public schools. But you will have to pay for it. Some organizations do have funds available for those who cannot afford the fees.

Social youth activities can be found throughout each and every community outside of the public school.

[Demit]

68. You want it both ways.

You chose what you wanted when you made your choice. Now you want what you gave up. AND you clap yourself on the back for it having been a "hard" choice. AND you try to pass it off as being good for the "community". The community you didn't want to be a part of when you chose home-schooling. Words fail me.

[mondo joe]

Sorry but you made your choice. Now you make it work.

It reminds me of someone divorcing but trying to come back to the old family for dinner.

Maybe the homeschoolers should find each other and make a sports team.

[thinkingwoman]

91. Socializing

is different from socialization.

If you don't feel like you have enough opportunities to socialize (presumably with others your age), why don't you do something about that.

Are you active in your church youth group?

Are you a member of a homeschooling association? If not, start one. If yes, is there a teen group (that functions like a youth group)? If yes, join it. If no, start one.

What about teaming up with other homeschoolers to put on a play, or start up a band/orchestra, or plan and go on group field trips?

What other extra-curricular activity could you take part in (i.e. 4-H, scouts, Y activites, etc.)?

How often do you arrange get togethers with your friends? Take the initiative.

High School classes, frankly, are not for socializing. They are for learning. If administrators and teachers enforced that, public schools would be a better place.

[loro mi dicevano]

100. They refer to the same concept of enculturation. I'd say that's the same.

I'm definitely doing something about it, but that doesn't make up for the fact that I can't participate in the wider variety of school activities that are available to public school students.

Classes are for learning, but providing an environment for kids to socialize in is usually a goal of extra-curricular activities.

[thinkingwoman]

155. if you feel

you are missing out, go back to public school.

Most homeschoolers I've met don't feel like they're missing out on anything. They find more than enough opportunities for socializing outside of the public school structure.

Socializing and Socialization are similar, yes. But not exactly the same.

[Tansy_Gold]

170. If I remember correctly, there have been DU threads addressing

the issue of socialization for home schooled kids and the defenders always insist their kids are getting PLENTY of socialization and enrichment (field trips to art museums, etc.).

So now all of a sudden they aren't????

Who woulda thunk. . . . . .???


Now, if the home schoolers can join the public school football team, can the public schoolers tag along when the home schoolers go to the museum?

[thinkingwoman]

186. they are

this is just a whiney thread.

[THUNDER HANDS]

92. If i could have been home schooled, I would have wanted to

Because I despised my school with every fiber of my being. But at the same time, if I didn't go to it, I shouldn't be allowed to join a team or a club.

Home schooling gives off an air of being 'too good' for that public school. And that's the price you pay.

Be a snob, get shut out of the fun activities.

Maybe mommy and daddy can field a baseball team for you.

[Malva Zebrina]

35. The home schooling of children originated in the mind of

R.J. Rushdoony, founder of the Christian Reconstructionist movement. Google his name, if you want a shocking eye opener.

Soon, many others who were not involved with Rushdoony's fanaticism, and for varied reasons, decided, for the betterment of their children, to home school their children. Since this home schooling movement happened way after my children went to public schools, I am not going to make any judgements on those reasons. What I do see today is a shameful degradation of the public school system and a move toward privatized schooling, and home schooling. I would have to think this a result of Republican initiatives and their obsession with smaller government--ie why should my money go to teach a dumb little black kid in the urban ghetto.

When the home school movement flowered, one criticism was that those children would not have the advantage of the needed social contacts a public school would offer and would not develop certain social skills because of that. Whether or not that is true, and it certainly is denied of course by home schoolers, it seems that, now, some of them want to capitalize on that missed social contact--kids can't play a game of baseball with themself, for instance or they throw the ball around with a kid next door who is on the after school baseball team and they want to be on the team too because they really like playing baseball. So--seems that public schools aren't that bad after all--homeschooled kids are missing something-the chance to excel at competitive sports-and the parents a chance to be sitting in the bleachers cheering their homeschooled kid on, and they will be coached by--a public school teacher!

It looks as if homeschoolers want to have their cake and eat it too.

[KittyWampus]

84. Homeschooling Started Long Ago Way Before The Fundies Started

using it to further their agenda.

Just saying....

In the 60's-70's homeschooling was associated with hippies and liberals.

[thinkingwoman]

96. and 200 years before that

it was the norm.

What public schools did our founding fathers attend?

[Malva Zebrina]

104. If we really want to nitpick we can say homeschooling was started by the

American colonists.:)I think it was in the late sixties or early seventies that Rushdooney started the modern organised homeschooling.

I am, of course, not trying to make a hero out of him. I am sure that others around at the time who were not members of the Chalcedon Institute, were doing homeschooling also, on a more personal and smaller level.

[LeftyMom]

161. John Holt was advocating it before then

People who wanted a more appropriate education for purely secular reasons were homeschooling before the fundiegeleicals ever got involved.

In the early 80's changes in tax law led to the closing of many small church schools, causing the fundie homeschooling boom.

I'd suggest reading this for more information. http://www.gentlespirit.com/gs6n09/HSH1.pdf

[Malva Zebrina]

171. have it your way--Seelhof is a cult as far as I am concerned

Rushdoony began before this. If that is what you believe, I don't really care. Homeschool the kids. I am not concerned . I find your link to be horseshit but it that is the reasoning behind homeschooling go for it. It's your kids after all.

If people want to home school their own children for whatever their reasons,for whatever gods or goddesses in the movement they adore, then they cannot have their cake and eat it also. They have rejected the public school system and removed their kids from it's horrific teachings or whatever.

It abuses their kids and their religious beliefs or their conviction that their kids are being ignored or the teachers suck or whatever.

If they, however, want to use the public schools to make up for the paucity of their home schooling when it comes to other things,such as competitive sports , which are very important to some parents,especially dads and soccer moms, they should not whine that their kids, while home schooled, are also entitled to "other" things the public schools offer.

[LeftyMom]

198. Who the fuck is Seelhof and wht's it gotta do with what I said?

You said that Rushdoony and the Dominionists started pushing homeschooling in the 70's. I don't doubt that (LM's note: Actually, I looked this up and he started writing about the evils of public school in the 60's, I don't know when that translated into advocating home schooling though, he may have initially plugged church schools. I'm not about to read his books to find out.) but the history of modern homeschooling predates that.

Raymond and Dorothy Moore homeschooled in the 40's and wrote all about it in the 70's. Former schoolteacher John Holt wrote books about reforming public schools in the 60's but then decided that was a lost cause as aresult of fundamental flaws in the system and established a magazine and catalog devoted to unschooling in the early 70's. (Unschooling is a style of homeschooling.)

All this occured prior to and concurrent with the fundie's homeschooling movement. The fundies, when thier movement really took off in the early and mid eighties, saw this other crowd (which was much more focused on children's needs and instructional theory than religion) as altogether separate and established thier own catalogs, magazines, curriculum houses, asssociations (most states have two major homeschooling orgs, an inclusive one and a christian (usually distinctly evangelical) one that usually requires a statement of faith to join.

You seem to want to punish homeschooled kids and thier families for making a choice you disagree with. This is not healthy, and it certainly won't lead to good policy.

[qanda]

141. What you should be talking about is the history...

Of public education.

http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/underground/index.htm

[tyedyeto]

37. If homeschoolers want more social interaction,

there are many ways to achieve that without having to participate in public schools.

In the sports area, many, if not most, communities have baseball, football, basketball, soccer and swim leagues that any child can participate in as long as they pay. There are also gymnastic, karate type, dance, etc classes a parent can enroll their children in.

Why place a further drain on our public education's coffers? These families made a decision to keep their children out of the public schools. And now they want limited extracurricular access? I believe that is wrong.

When is comes to maintaining certain GPAs, I echo what others have said here....Mom/Dad can give their children whatever grade they want to. Who but Mom/Dad know what the quality of those grades are?

[SheilaT]

39. Not all home schoolers

do so because they're religious nutcases. And yes, everyone pays taxes for the schools, because we ALL benefit from strong public education.

It's already happening in many places that kids are mostly home-schooled and only take a few classes in public school or participate in extra-curricular activities. Everyone benefits when that happens.

I've had home-schooled kids show up in my classes at the local junior college, and they're an interesting mix. Sometimes a little odd and not good at understanding the unspoken, unwritten classroom rules, other times very savvy and well-educated.

I chose to send my children to a private school because of their specific needs, and have never felt I should be exempt from a single penny of taxes. What I did learn is that we should be funding our public schools so at the very least the same small class sizes would exist everywhere.

[LizW]

42. This will go over big in the south

Now the kid who runs a 4.6 forty, but reads on a third grade level can be "homeschooled" and still play football. Whoo-hoo. :eyes:

[Tansy_Gold]

109. Riiiiiiiight

And the kid who can't run or kick or hit or throw, whose parents work two or three jobs -- if they can find them -- to put food on the table rather than sit home all day and teach their kid algebra and diffy q and Vergil in Latin and Hugo in French and Gorky in Russian, where does that kid go?


(Answer: Iraq.)


Public education was intended to help fulfill that notion that all people are created equal. They ought to have an equal chance at developing to their full capacity -- emotionally, intellectually, artistically, physically -- rather than being shut out of all the opportunities because they weren't born into wealth. By giving everyone a chance, by destroying one of the greatest supports for the old-style aristocracy, public education was one of the greatest contributors to what used to be the American Dream.

[Redstone]

43. I don't think homeschooling is such a great idea, specifically because

the kids don't have the social interaction they would at school.

This, coupled with the fact that the parents still pay property taxes even if they don't send the kids to the schools, leads me to say that the homeschooled kids should have access to the school programs.

It would be good for the kids. And, sorry about this if it runs contraty to other opinions, but I do believe that doing whatever is best for kids, politics, lifestyle, and ALL other considerations aside, is the right thing to do.

Redstone

PS: I wouldn't be opposed to charging them a fee. This actually is happening in some places even for public school kids who want to participate in expensive activites such as football. If mykid wants to play football in our local high school, it will cost me a couple hundred bucks a year, and that's fine with me. I don't expect everyone else to subsidize an expensive activity that only a few participate in--I'd rather the school put those $$ into keeping arts and music programs going.

[Bridget Burke]

54. Good homeschoolers provide for social interaction.

I know some who are not the religious nutcases who give homeschooling a bad name. They work with other homeschoolers to provide special classes & activities for their kids.

Schools lose funding when students go elsewhere. What if the student has been at home all his academic life? How much money did the public schools lose? Now, he wants to take up room in the already-stressed arts & music programs. Just how much will he pay? Enough?

[ProfessorPlum]

128. What are you talking about?

If a student is homeschooled thoughout his academic life, then the public school gets ALL of the family's property/school tax, and never has to provide any services to that student.

That's a huge win for the school district, and a net PLUS in terms of money.

I teach my kids at home, I'm not really interested in having my kids participate in extracurriculars at our school, but I'm flabbergasted at the number of people who think I'm _hurting_ our public school financially. I'm a goddamned economic godsend to them, because I continue to pay them for what I now have to provide. Get it?

[MissMarple]

147. Does your school district receive state funding based on enrollment?

If so, then they do lose that financial support. In Colorado, schools that accept home schoolers for certain classes receive part of the state allocation for per pupil enrollment. The schools may also charge more for participation in extracurricular activities. this works well for home schoolers wanting more advanced classes than the parent can provide, such as in science, math, or literature. Also students may participate in band and sports.

Colorado also has an open enrollment policy. Children may enroll in any public school that has room for them. Charter schools started by parents are also quite prevalent here. About the only thing we don't do here is pay private school tuition. :-)

[ProfessorPlum]

148. Yes, but unless the state funding is their only source of income

then I'm still an economic plus for the district. They certainly don't get as much from the state as what they would lose if I didn't pay school property taxes.

Look at it this way: if your argument is correct, then our local school district would be MUCH better off if every single household that currently doesn't enroll a child in the school suddenly manifested a school aged child and sent them. Now, you would have many more children going to school on the same tax base. But, you would argue, state and federal funds based on enrollment would go up based on all of those new kids. Do you honestly think the total spending per child would go up or down in that scenario? Better yet, every childless household should suddenly start sending FIVE children. I'll bet the educational standards/money per student for that district would go through the fucking roof at that point, right?

/sarcasm.

[MissMarple]

152. It depends on your state funding structure.

In Colorado, if every home sent children to school next year, the state is obligated to allot x dollars for each child. Here a loss of state funding can hurt a district because the state provides a greater percentage of school funding than the local district does. And very little money comes from the federal government. That is one reason some states are considering opting out of "No Child Left Behind". Other unfunded federal mandates also pose an additional burden on school districts. Special education mandates are good for kids and families but are tremendously expensive for the schools. Some rural schools and Boards of Cooperative Services even send children elsewhere for services they are unable to provide.

I think home schooling is fine. It is a viable, even desirable, avenue for many families. I like the way Colorado schools support home schooling, making it easier for parents and enriching for children. Adequate funding has always been a problem for many districts and states with or without the effects home schooling. If a district loses, for any reason, enough children to sustain the buildings and pay staff, it will close schools.

For you to feel defensive about home schooling isn't right. Homeschooling is enjoying recent popularity, but it has been done even since the advent of the compulsory school laws. For many, the early concerns for the adequacy of home schooling have been resolved. I would hate to have it become a universal practice, because I think for America, overall, our public school system keeps our democracy strong, vital, and accepting of diversity. But home schooling and private schools fill a demonstrable need.

[thinkingwoman]

80. Thank Goddess they don't

"have the social interaction they would at school."

Thanks to homeschooling, my two teens are working 3-5 years above their grade level (yes, that means college level), do not smoke, do not drink, do not do drugs, and are not having sex.

They DO have many friends locally and from all over the world. They DO both have a good work ethic and excellent job skills (from working for the family business). They DO have the ability to interact intelligently and politely with people of all walks of life and from all age groups.

They DO thank us repeatedly for allowing them the time and attention to focus on their goals for the future rather than spending 6 hours a day doing busy work far beneath their abilities and dodging punches from school bullies.

There is simply no evidence that homeschooled students lack proper socialization. None. Please oppose homeschooling for a real reason.

[republicansareevil]

49. Can someone help clarify the funding issue?

What is meant by the statement that schools are funded according to the number of children enrolled? Is that a reference to allocation of state and federal funds? Because I don't see how that applies to local funding. The funding is whatever is collected in taxes from the community, correct? So if only (hypothetically) local funding is considered, then the argument that homeschooling saves schools money seems somewhat logical. Does anyone have any idea how much of a school's funds come from local, state, and federal sources, proportionally?

[tanyev]

61. I'm sure it varies by state.

Texas is currently in the process of revamping its unpopular so-called "Robin Hood" system which was set up in the hopes of solving the inequities of rich districts vs poor districts. Under Robin Hood, all school taxes went into one big giant state pot and were sent back to the school districts at the rate of $x.xx per student. Of course, the rich districts complained that they lost money on the deal. They were forced to start charging fees and having bake sales to maintain the level of services they were used to.

I don't really know what the solution is. I thought Robin Hood sounded like a good idea when it was implemented, but it doesn't seem to have helped poorer school districts get out of the hole they were in.

[Horse with no Name]

73. You are correct

I live in an economically disadvantaged district in Texas.
Our schools consistently underperform and they do nothing to fix the problem.
There is a lack of qualified teachers. Their "favorite" substitute teacher didn't even graduate from high school and is dumb as a box of rocks--yet she seems to run the school.
I have fought the school district on this woman as she is abusive to some of the kids, yet they do nothing because she is "dependable". But I digress.:)
It doesn't seem that our district has the motivation to do anything other than what they are doing.
We moved here from the other end of the spectrum (Waxahachie) which is a wealthier school district. It seems they were motivated to keep the kids in the school.
I too thought Robin Hood was the perfect fix. However, I don't think you can fix the mentality in the disadvantaged districts with all of the money in the world.

[Bridget Burke]

74. Those against "Robin Hood" weren't the poor school districts.

The rich ones hated to lose "their" money.

The legislature's current school finance package is so bad that (usually Republican-tolerating) Texas Monthly wrote a scathing editorial. What I remember: Higher taxes on everybody (sales tax, mostly) & lower property taxes. And even less money actually going to the schools.

[Tansy_Gold]

114. We don't have "Robin Hood" taxes in Arizona

and our schools are still woefully disparate in funding and performance, directly related to socio-economic base of each district.

That's where the problem is, long before the taxes are collected and distributed. Geez louise, how does anyone expect kids who live every minute of every day below the poverty level, who don't even get enough to eat half the time let alone have a computer to come home to and do their homework via Google, how does anyone expect these kids to compete with the kids who sit in the back seat of the Lexus and finish their homework on the iPod?

(Come to think of it, I don't have the faintest idea what an iPod will do. Can you do homework on it?)

The point I'm trying to make is that the whole tax-base argument ignores the underlying inequality as the source for academic failure in poorer districts but tries to use it as a reason for academic success in the wealthier ones -- in order to keep the imbalance.

Sorry I'm not explaining this well.

[republicansareevil]

77. Does anyone know the situation in TN?

It's interesting that the argument about homeschooled kids causing schools to lose funds is not presented by anyone anywhere in the article, but that may just be bad journalism. Still, most of the arguments seemed to be mainly about logistical issues.

[Jeff in Cincinnati]

52. This is ripe for abuse...

So if there's a 6' 5" high school sophomore who can nail a three-pointer in his sleep, the local wealthy alumni can hire him a private tutor and than he can "attend" class long enough to win a state championship. Along the way, of course, the parents cash in with do-nothing jobs and low-interest loans, etc. All because it flies under the radar of most states' athletic rules.

Private schools can have their own teams, and home-schooled kids can play in municipal leagues or other types of sports clubs.

[LostinVA]

56. Municipal leagues -- Exactly!

I work with someone who sends her daughter to a small Catholic school. It's too small to have competitive teams, so most of the kids play on Municipal teams. I live in a town about 40,000, and it has a HUGE league. Lots of stuff at the Y, too.

[maxrandb]

57. Fine, But I Then Would Like My 2 Public School Children

To crash the "home-schoolers" party as well. My daughter is not doing so well in AP Biology right now, so I want to send her to a home-schoolers house to take a Biology Quiz.

How about my kids come over for lunch period as well? Can my kids participate in "home school" recess? How about an art class that has recently been cut at my childs middle school? I'm sure some home-schooler won't mind if my kids show up at their house and borrow their crayons. Will they?

I mean it's only "fair and ballanced"

[tanyev]

62. Excellent idea.

The kids that are struggling in public school could be farmed out to various home schools for some intensive one on one tutoring and some nourishing meals. I'm sure the home school teachers would have no problem with the quid pro quo, right?

[thinkingwoman]

81. Oh, did I miss my share

of your tax money?

As soon as your taxes contribute to my homeschooling classes, I'll be happy to allow your children to participate. Maybe they'll learn something.

[maxrandb]

101. Tax Money is Such a Straw-man Argument

It has nothing to do with tax dollars. Tell that to all the childless people that still pay their taxes. It's part of the sacrifice that society makes to improve itself. I would like to see our economy flourish without a well-educated workforce. The majority of that well-educated workforce comes from the public school system. But, that is not the issue.

I also have nothing against home-schooling. I think that it is fine as long as we place the same type of standards of learning that we apply to public schools. I'm sure that there are thousands and thousands of people that home-school for a myriad of reasons. Some good, some bad.

Like it or not, you made a conscientious decision to opt-out of the public school system. It was your choice to remove your child, or children from the public school system. The public schools in return, have not received any benefit from having your children involved in classroom discussions, classroom input, alternate views and input from your children. In other words, you have done nothing to enrich public education, with the exception of paying your taxes. Something that all of us are expected to do.

It seems to me that you want to have it both ways. You don't want to share your children with public education intellectually, but you want to participate, or cherry-pick, in the things that the public schools offer that you either can't, or won't provide.

Here's an idea. Get together with other home-schoolers in your area and start your own sports teams. Start your own fine arts programs. Start your own cheer-leading camps. What I'm saying is that if you are really dedicated to home-schooling, don't stop half-way. Go all the way.

To me this is like a Wal-mart employee that wants all the benefits of a union, but refuses to do any of the heavy lifting to get there.

[thinkingwoman]

145. Actually, it's not

Thanks for the lecture, but the majority of your post was not relevant to mine.

I did not advocate for or against homeschool participation in public school sports events. I said that people couldn't expect me to educate their child at my homeschool without a tax dollar contribution. Would the public school educate my child without taxes? No.

BTW, if you think that public schools are turning out a "well-educated workforce" you're not paying attention.

[maxrandb]

151. Wrong

Your post was specifically implying that since you pay taxes, then you ought to be able to partake of things the public schools offer. My post was an attempt to show the hypocrisy of taking what you want from public schools, but offering nothing in return. You can't count taxes, because everyone pays them, even folks that have no kids. If you want to "take" and give nothing back, then why shouldn't I "take" as well? Are you even a member of the PTA? Do you volunteer as "team-mom" for the high school swim team? Do you offer your time to help as a stage hand for the Spring Musical? You see, there is a lot more than simple "paper" money involved. You are (by choice) denying "human" capital to the schools. Your argument about taxes is ludicrous. Of course I am not going to bring my kids over to your house for lectures. Why should you bring your kids to the baseball diamond?

You contribute nothing to the public schools intellectually. Your children's knowledge is not shared. Their personalities are not shared. That is fine, but it is also your choice.

You seem to want the public schools to share the things they provide that you like, but if it's something you don't like, you want to take your ball and go home.

And please take the "right-wing" talking points about the quality of public education someplace else, because as a great Democrat once said; "that dog don't hunt". Our public education, and our higher public education is the envy of the world. Unfortunately, like a Rush Limbaugh "dittohead", some people site an extreme example and project it as the norm.

But as the right-wing noise machine has proven. Tell a lie often enough and it becomes the truth. I guess the reasons that

- we are the envy of the world
- we are the leader in innovation and technology
- we are the leader in medical research and treatment
- we have the highest quality of life in the free world
- we lead the world in the arts and entertainment industry
- as a whole, we have the highest literacy rate in the world (and no, don't tell me about this or that country whose scores better when their education opportunity is limited to the elite class)
- we lead the world in environmental technology
- we lead the world in science (until GWB is done)
- we have the best criminal justice system in the world

IS BECAUSE OF HOW HORRIBLE OUR PUBLIC EDUCATION IS.

Looks to me like maybe you are the one "not paying attention."

[thinkingwoman]

154. Reading comprehension

is sorely lacking in this debate.

I posted this:

"Oh, did I miss my share of your tax money?

As soon as your taxes contribute to my homeschooling classes, I'll be happy to allow your children to participate. Maybe they'll learn something."

As a response to this:

"Fine, But I Then Would Like My 2 Public School Children To crash the "home-schoolers" party as well. My daughter is not doing so well in AP Biology right now, so I want to send her to a home-schoolers house to take a Biology Quiz.

"How about my kids come over for lunch period as well? Can my kids participate in "home school" recess? How about an art class that has recently been cut at my childs middle school? I'm sure some home-schooler won't mind if my kids show up at their house and borrow their crayons. Will they?"

Nothing in my post "was specifically implying that since you pay taxes, then you ought to be able to partake of things the public schools offer" as you accuse.

I am NOT the one you originally replied to. That poster, the original of this thread, discussed taking part in public school activites. I simply replied to your post asking to have your kids come to a homeschooler's house. Try actually reading my post next time.

[maxrandb]

156. So, You Are Against Home Schooled Children

participating in Public School activities?? Glad you cleared that up. I agree. People that home-school should not expect for their kids to be on the local high school baseball team. Just as I should not expect you to provide an art class for my kids.

That is what you are saying, right?

[thinkingwoman]

160. What's been clear all along

is that I did not state one way or the other.

I stated that without me receiving tax money, I was unwilling to educate some one else's children.

So no, you're still wrong. I have not stated either way.

[mopinko]

222. this subject sure brings out the knee jerk crazies

what part of 'my kitchen table is not a public institution, but my local PUBLIC SCHOOL is' does not add up?
i can't even send my kids to the public school in another town, even thought it is funded by my state tax dollars. but people think they should be able to send their kids to my house for school? huh??

[thinkingwoman]

224. you said it

so much better than I did! Thank you.

[denese]

139. Home schooling means...

you do it yourself.
But, your kids are always welcome to borrow my kids crayons.
;-)

[mopinko]

223. my kids are citizens

they are entitled to their own crayons.

[Ms_Mary]

142. One of our local schools hired a homeschool mom as a tutor

because when her children decided to go to public school, they were so far ahead and well-adusted. My SIL teaches at that school and prior to their enrollment, was talking about how much the teachers were dreading having to "catch up" the kids. See how that little stereotype sucks there? Her kids were so far ahead, the school hired her.

[DS1]

59. Tough shit, bucko

:eyes:

[oneighty]

60. Re-Segregate the public schools based on skin color

and this debate will end.

IMHO. And I say that as one who sent his white children to a public school in South Carolina.

It is all about race.

180

[Igel]

95. What is all about race?

I think few home schoolers do so out of racial reasons.

The ones I've known have mostly been because they didn't like the left wing ideology of the schools or the right wing ideology of the schools (and we're talking about the same high school, not even the same high school system!), the lack of discipline in the classroom and lunchroom, or the generally backwardness of the curriculum.

[oneighty]

102. I speak of South Carolina

Where I lived for years. Where white people would not send their children to the public schools and where they formed tiny 'Private' schools.

180

[wicket]

76. In my town, homeschoolers always participated in sports, etc

This was in the late 1980s to mid 1990s and I'm pretty sure it still goes on in the town (I no longer live there). No one ever had a problem with this, but we were a small town so it was only a couple of kids.

[Horse with no Name]

79. This is not the solution

These parents need to contact their Parks and Recreation Departments, local Y's, or other home school parents and create their own leagues.
Living in Texas, this will certainly lead to abuse (everything in Texas leads to abuse) as far as districting, attendance, GPA's etc.
Schools can take "home schooled" athletes out of one district, give them a fake address and have them playing on their teams without meeting the strict attendance and GPA guidelines that the University Interscholatic League requires. Not only will the school lose their per capita funding, they will also lose out on an out of district child whose parents pay NO taxes in that district.
I believe that this can only lead to more flagrant abuses.
The simple solution as stated previously--put your kid back in the public school and supplement their education at home.
Simple enough.

[bleedingheart]

83. If the parents pay into the tax system, then their kids get to participate

In my school district here in PA, kids who go to catholic school receive home ec and other type of instructions from the public schools since the local catholic school doesn't have enough money to pay for that type of instruction..

they even get bussed to their school by the public school system....

Typically what happens is those kids end up wanting to go to public school because they feel "odd" going to private schools...I bet the same will hold true for the home schooled kids..

[lcbart]

85. If your kids are too good for our schools.....

Then they're too good for our extra-curricular activities - it's that simple.

[KittyWampus]

87. IMO, IF This Is Allowed, Homeschoolers Must Pass All Academic Subjects

their peers do with at least a C+ average.

In other words, they have to go and take tests and perhaps even pay a fee for doing so.

Of course this STILL wouldn't guarentee they get on the team.

Kids COMPETE to make the teams.

It's not like everyone who signs up for volleyball makes the cut.

[OilemFirchen]

89. What a lovely idea!

But with a condition... If they want their kids to really learn social skills, let's bus 'em to the minority neighborhoods for after-school programs.

Win-win all around!

[mopinko]

94. some du'ers show there true colors on this issue

if you all think that you are open minded, unprejudiced, fair liberals, and you post shit in these threads about how much you hate homeschooling, go take a look in the f'ing mirror.
unless you are a former homeschooler, or have extensive first hand knowledge of the subject, i wish you would all just stfu. i can tell you that the majority of negative comments here are based on nothing but prejudice and ignorance.
thanks for helping me update my ignore list.

[starwolf]

112. I agree

[Flavin]

127. Some Duers - color on this issue.

Well Instead of lobbing vindictives at the non-liberal postinf members on this board. I'll tell you my story

NOT ALL HOMESCHOOLING IS CREASTED EQUAL.

While my daughter lived with me, she attended a public magnet school for the arts, participating in a broad range of extra curricular activities (although none of which were athletic, the school didn't even have a team of anything). She was above her grade average and pulling A's.

She as a sophomore decided to go live with her 100% disabled manic depressive mother. Within two months she was sixteen and left public school to be 'home schooled' by her mother.

Welllll, in the fine red state of Missouri ALL cease to apply once the child reaches 16 years of age. Her mother can SAY she's being homeschooled, NOBODY can verify it, no curriculum to review, no nothing.

I later found that my fears were validated, she was not being home schooled, instead, she was nurse-maiding her mother, because she felt her mother needed the help.

After 2 years she decided to go to college. You'll be suprised what happens to your brain when it's not feed for 2 years. It took multiple attempts to get her GED and the once viviacious, well-spoken child was now a very poor communicator and lost a pile of her social skills.

Home schooling is bogus, IMOHO, and choosing to homeschool shows a complete lack of social responsiblity, as you choose to pick up your toys and go home as opposed to fixing the problems, IMOHO.

Flavin

[LeftyMom]

173. One "homeschooling" situation was bad

so all homeschooling is? By the same logic, the public school up the street from me is awful, the kids there can't behave to save thier lives (the police are there constantly) and the kids aren't learning shit, ergo all public schooling is bogus and shows a complete lack of social responsibility.

For the record, when a child leaves school and isn't educated, that's not homeschooling, it's dropping out. No matter what box was checked when the kid was withdrawn from school.

[denese]

137. thanks for saying that

:applause:

[FearofFutility]

143. Thank you

Every time I read a thread about home schooling on this board, I'm amazed at the ignorance.

[Ms_Mary]

146. I'm kind of apalled by the closed-mindedness.

I'm not a homeschooler, but I know many of them. They, for the record, enroll their kids in paid activities like gymnastics, karate, swimming, music, etc rather than use the school's programs. Some have supplementeded their education with some classes at the local high schools - Spanish and Calculus for example. I think that's wonderful, personally. I will be the last person to begrudge anything beneficial to a child's education.

[LeftyMom]

172. Thank you!

I'm really glad to find out who thinks I'm a fundiegelical control freak raising socially retarded children and exploiting the system. Oh, and that the per-pupil spending loss from keeping LK out of the public school system is singlehandedly responsible for destroying public education.

All this because some kids in Tennesee want to play sports. :eyes:

[Tesibria]

204. AMEN .......... !!!! nt

[Mari333]

97. In Michigan, we can homeschool and the kids can participate

in extracurricular activities. Not all homeschoolers are fundies. The academia in the small town where I live is horrible, really horrible. They scrape the bottom of the barrel here for teachers, and the likelihood of your child being prostlyized to is very high in our schools by fundy teachers..my sons, when growing up, asked for many of their classes to be home classes..
My oldest son is now in college and is on the Deans list. He would have NEVER read Kafka or Descartes in the schools here. The textbooks here for History are from 1986.
Since I paid school related taxes, my sons chose a few extracurricular activities in high school to enjoy.
Again, dont stereotype. Not all homeschoolers are fundies. Problem is, fundies run the schools here and get away with it.

[Igel]

99. I think school systems overall benefit from having the kids out of

the classroom. Their funding is based on county revenues, by and large (except in states with Robin Hood laws); federal revenues are not the majority of the school funding. They spend more on each kid than they receive from the feds.

Therefore, take the kid out of the classroom, and there's a fraction of a cent more for each kid remaining. This analysis breaks down below a certain number of kids because some costs are fixed. Take one kid out of elementary, and nothing much changes; take 25 out, and there's one teacher fewer needed.

Some states allow parents of home schooled kids to participate in extra-curricular activities, on the same basis as in-school kids, and I think that they were putting up a home schooler center in Eugene when I left--a resource center to help parents. Some states also closely monitor home schooled kids. Tx doesn't help home schoolers; here, at least in large cities, the home schoolers have been known to set up their own orchestra or choir; they're shaky because the home schoolers are widely distributed, and it's hard getting word out.

Far from every home schooler is a rabid RW fundamentalist or Molotov-cocktail throwing leftwinger. Most are fairly parents with fairly normal kids who have a variety of reasons for homeschooling. Even the fundamentalists tend to use one out of a small set of fairly decent curricula; they typically also cover evolution, since it's on tests that the kids have to pass.

The thing is, most homeschoolers finish their curricula earlier than those in-class: home schooling uses the time more efficiently.

[OilemFirchen]

103. The most equitable solution

would be to cease funding extra-curricular activities and institute them on a pay-as-you go basis, accomodating needy students through stipends.

That would allow all students, public, private, and home-schooled, to pick and choose programs region-wide, and result in centers of excellence.

I doubt, however, that home-schoolers' parents would support the idea - at least those likely behind this legislation - as it would result in income/race/gender mixing and cross-culturalization. Opposition to which, after all, is at least the genesis of anti-public education rhetoric and practice.

[Bridget Burke]

105. Great--only the rich kids could afford art, music or sports.

Or, at least middle class...

And the poorer public schooled children can be shoved aside by the homeschooled ones with money.

[OilemFirchen]

108. Absolutley not

You'll note that I described programs with stipends (grants, scholarships, et al) for needy students. In fact, it's a great way to help these kids, whose schools likely don't have the resources to provide for good after-school programs, if any at all.

Anectdotally, one of the finest examples is Dayton, Ohio's Living Arts program, which ran from the late 1960's to the 70's. Students citywide were exposed to the arts - fine art, music, dance, literature, etc. and often incredible guest lecturers and teachers-in-residence (you can read a little bit about it in Harlan Ellison's The Glass Teat).

Unfortunately, and quite relevant to this discussion, it was the local fundies and racists who objected from the beginning and had it shut down. You can also read a bit about that in Ellison's book.

[Bridget Burke]

110. So--the needy students must be judged worthy.

And, of course, must be identified as "needy".....

I wonder--if the homeschoolers get involved in the extracurricular activities--will they get to raise their objections? After all, they pay for their kids to participate. Since the programs will depend on their money, instead of public funding, they will have a real voice in deciding what is offered to all the kids.

[OilemFirchen]

121. Eh?

The "needy" students are so defined by their ability to pay. Lots of community programs are set up this way. I don't understand your objection.

And all students would be judged "worthy" if the curriculum required it, as is the case now. You have to try out for the football team, right?

The programs would be an adjunct to the public school system, and administered accordingly. All citizens would have a voice - just like they do now. I don't know about your community, but here the school board meetings are public and the participants are free to attempt to influence the board - even if they don't have kids in public school. That's always a risk, but I don't think we'd want it any other way.

[kath]

165. Your last paragraph is TOTAL BS. There are pleny of liberal homeschoolers

here at DU, and around the country. Even in red state hell, like Oklahoma and Texas.

[Zerex71]

107. Sorry, too bad!

You wanted out of the "gross" and "ineffectual" public schools, so you miss out on that part of life, too. You can't have it both ways.

[republicansareevil]

120. why not? (nt)

[reprobate]

118. Aren't these the same people demanding ID not evolution be taught?

Rhey made their choice to be separate from the public school system. Now they want to change their minds? I say you made your bed, now sleep in it.

[republicansareevil]

130. No. They're not.

Maybe you should consider reading this thread. Your prejudice is astounding.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3420994

[Bridget Burke]

149. The organization sponsoring this legislation is a bit conservative.....

Yes, there are liberal homeschoolers.

But the Tennessee Home Education Association does not represent them.

www.tnhea.org/

Darn, we just missed the THEA Home School Event at "Ink & Blood: The Museum Exhibit of the Bible" where you can witness "the story of William Tyndale, the most influential English speaking person ever, as well as over 100 priceless ancient artifacts. Don't miss out on an opportunity to learn about the history of the Bible and fellowship with hundreds of home school families from around the region. "

.....most influential English speaking person EVER?

[lynne]

131. THE PROBLEM IS ABOUT MONEY $$$ -

- at least that's the case in my area where the same thing has occurred.

The schools receive funding based upon STUDENT ENROLLMENT. The funding pays for the items that the students use, including sports equipment, which is expensive.

Non-enrolled students put a burden on the school who must then try to supply equipment based upon funding which does not include their numbers.

[Festivito]

132. I do not understand the opposition to this.

0. Only one good point against. That participants must keep a GPA. But, this is not impossible to overcome.

The rest are good:

1. I'm thankful NOT to have these students isolated.

2. To say that people NOT of age should receive this benefit also because they pay taxes is disingenuous.

3. To further that and say that taxpayers then should have special access to government activities to which no one else has special access is also disingenuous.

4. Current enrollees can have their classes chosen or denied by their parents, same with these students.

5. The differece is that home-schooled do not get a degree. I imagine a GED at best.

6. They would have to be counted on count day. The money they do not use by not attemding is a BONUS to the other students, and a BONUS to public education.

7. The idea that these students are LOWERING THEMSELVES TO JOIN other students is insulting to both sets of students.

8. ON EDIT: Diversity is good. Fot the student, and schooling in general.

[RickWn]

136. Any second generation home schooled?

The few parents I know that home-school were each educated in public school and only educated up through the high school level. One woman was put through a private Catholic girl's school by her parents and later went to a private all-girl Catholic university (Loretto Heights in CO).

While I don't condemn the home school movement, I wonder if the advocates ever reach a point where they think in their children's best interest they have to recognize they've reached the limit of their teaching ability.

Do home schooled kids go to public universities or is there an ivy-covered divider in the family room behind which they are later exposed to spring break, frat parties and intellectual thought that might well be different from how they've been trained to think?

I don't know. Just asking. I was never blessed with kids, but I'm proud of the public education I received and gladly pay my taxes to keep it going.

[HockeyMom]

157. Sports

That means some home schooled kid would have the opportunity to CUT a full time attending public school student from a sports team? No, that is not right. Do you know the animosity that would create among the public school students? My daughters both went to public school and were on various sports teams. I can tell you that is just asking for trouble.

[Bridget Burke]

158. And no need to keep their grades up!

Well--Mom can give them a "report card" to show the Coach.

[HockeyMom]

175. Oh, you are correct

Need to maintain at least a C average to be on a Junior or Vasity Sports Team.

[nonconformist]

164. I support homeschooling, but not this

And here's why.

For one thing, the argument that *everyone* pays school taxes and therefore should be able to selectively reap the benefits is crap. Schools are funded by ENROLLMENT and ATTENDANCE. They get a set amount of funds PER CHILD ATTENDING. If someone choses to turn their back on the public education system because they feel they could provide this better themselves, more power to them. But taking the stance that "no, you're not going to educate my child nor receive any funds for his attendance... but we can't afford fancy art supplies and musical instruments at home so we'd like to 'sit in' on those classes for free, thanks!" just doesn't wash. If that was the case, a single adult who pays taxes could swing by for an impromptu art lesson. These things are provided for enrolled students, they're not free community classes.

The public school systems will fight this, and they'll win.

[Jimbo S]

167. Using the arguement that the homeschoolers are taxpayers

in that case in a city with multiple public high schools, what would stop someone from claiming they can send their kid to one HS for academics and then do sports/forensics/etc at a different school in the district?

Part of extra ciricular activites is to bond with classmates, represent the school and show school pride. Want to be on the team? Attend the school!

[pacifictiger]

168. perhaps it would be a good thing,

IF they paid for the privilege.
And agreed to be integrated into the mainstream teams and play nice. I do know non-fundies that homeschooled their younger kids, mainly because they were teachers.
For the fundies, mainstream might broaden their myopic education.

[Catt03]

177. So what was the fuss about Santorum

and his kids being home schooled.

They did not live in PA but they were enrolled in a computer home school program. As I remember, he paid taxes and was still accused of misusing state funds.

[LeftyMom]

182. The Santorum kids were in a home-based charter

paid with public funds. Real homeschoolers in PA fall under and entirely different law (the strictist homeschooling law in the country) and do not have thier expenses paid with public funds.

Graying the line between charters and homeschools is intentinal and done by people who want to weaken both public schools and homeschooling so that they can make a quick buck providing a sub-par education through thier for-profit charters.

[Maine-ah]

178. I say fuck 'em

I pay taxes for public schools, and I have no children. Why can't I participate in public school activities?

[NorthernSpy]

179. because you're not a minor

By law, the public's duty to educate you ends when you reach a certain age. If you're older than that age, then you're free to look into our many fine adult education opportunities.

The homeschooled children who would like to participate in these various school activities are of the age at which the public's duty to educate still applies. That's why they're eligible, and you're not.

[Maine-ah]

181. then it should be a "pay to play"

situation for those who do not participate in public school.

[NorthernSpy]

180. looks like some people believe in school...

... more than they believe in education.

Honestly, what's wrong with "cherry-picking", as many of you indignantly put it? If an institution offers some good things and some crappy things, why shouldn't people have an opportunity to bypass the crap and make use of whatever was good and worthwhile?

Why should students have to resign themselves to some package-deal philosophy of schooling -- an ethos that privileges the current form of the instituition over that intitution's own supposed raison d'etre and over the many individuals who are supposed to benefit from its services?


I'd be very surpised if no one could come up with a funding formula that would make selective participation work. I suspect that the funding complaints are not the real grounds for objection.

[NashVegas]

187. On Public Education

As a product of the NYS school system, with a Regents', I have no complaints.

But something like this must be taken into account. The following article appeared in Harper's Magazine in 2003 (excuse the Rense link, it was the first thing I could find).

http://www.rense.com/general42/how.htm

Modern, industrialized, compulsory schooling was to make a sort of surgical incision into the prospective unity of these underclasses. Divide children by subject, by age-grading, by constant rankings on tests, and by many other more subtle means, and it was unlikely that the ignorant mass of mankind, separated in childhood, would ever re-integrate into a dangerous whole.
Inglis breaks down the purpose - the actual purpose - of modern schooling into six basic functions, any one of which is enough to curl the hair of those innocent enough to believe the three traditional goals listed earlier:
1) The adjustive or adaptive function. Schools are to establish fixed habits of reaction to authority. This, of course, precludes critical judgment completely. It also pretty much destroys the idea that useful or interesting material should be taught, because you can't test for reflexive obedience until you know whether you can make kids learn, and do, foolish and boring things.
2) The integrating function. This might well be called "the conformity function," because its intention is to make children as alike as possible. People who conform are predictable, and this is of great use to those who wish to harness and manipulate a large labor force.
3) The diagnostic and directive function. School is meant to determine each student's proper social role. This is done by logging evidence mathematically and anecdotally on cumulative records. As in "your permanent record." Yes, you do have one.

4) The differentiating function. Once their social role has been "diagnosed," children are to be sorted by role and trained only so far as their destination in the social machine merits - and not one step further. So much for making kids their personal best.

5) The selective function. This refers not to human choice at all but to Darwin's theory of natural selection as applied to what he called "the favored races." In short, the idea is to help things along by consciously attempting to improve the breeding stock. Schools are meant to tag the unfit - with poor grades, remedial placement, and other punishments - clearly enough that their peers will accept them as inferior and effectively bar them from the reproductive sweepstakes. That's what all those little humiliations from first grade onward were intended to do: wash the dirt down the drain.

6) The propaedeutic function. The societal system implied by these rules will require an elite group of caretakers. To that end, a small fraction of the kids will quietly be taught how to manage this continuing project, how to watch over and control a population deliberately dumbed down and declawed in order that government might proceed unchallenged and corporations might never want for obedient labor.

This is the other side of the coin that needs looking at, in addition to the fundies.

I don't buy into the socialization arguments (pro-public school) against home-schooling. In 6 years of public school with about 1k other kids, I made a total of two real friends. Who were not even in my grade. The others were all just kids I attended class with.

If anything, putting kids in that big a pot encourages them to conform with the most restrictive rules of society. ie, cliques, etc. Don't hang out with the uncool kids. Worship the jocks. etc., etc.

If I had children I would be interested in home-schooling them. OTOH, I wouldn't be so stupid/arrogant as to try to borrow the school's sports equipment and art teachers. Not only is that asking to have your cake and eat it, too, it's also asking for your kids to be outcasts in those borrowed surroundings. Don't think there won't be public school kids who won't resent the presence of home-schooled kids on their soccer team and in their art classes.

The 6th point, especially, fascinates me. You've all heard the increased talk of how we need more specialized education. Do you think well-informed parents who are aware of the workings of society and who intend for their little Dicks and Janes to grow up and take upper management positions, medical and legal careers, etc., are going to have their child in an education system where the focus is on working class job skills? Fuck no. Little Dick and Jane are going to have a broad education that doesn't include 4 hours a day or more of staring at a computer screen.

[mondo joe]

192. Enrollment = resources to fund the school

And I don't think the kids who actually GO to the school should have their teacher's attention divided by any more students than those enrolled, nor should they have to get in line behind a kid not enrolled in the school.

Our school is a community and we are very involved in making it a place we want our kids to be.

I don't care for this any more than I do someone not involved in cooking or buying the meal who only shows up to get a piece of dessert.

[hyphenate]

190. This is a case of wanting their "cake and eat it too."

I don't think it's fair to make allowances to those who homeschool to give them the same kind of opportunities that those attending public schools are given. They choose to home school, and therefore, they choose to exclude their children from the variety of activities and events that are given to those who regularly attend those public schools.

If you think about it, those kids who go to parochial schools can be looked at in the same way as homeschooled children==the parents of parochial schooled children don't get to participate in those activities or events, either, simply by virtue of the fact that their kids AREN'T PART OF THE SCHOOL.

If these homeschooling parents want to get their kids involved in games, sports and other things, why the hell don't they form an association of their own and have all the homeschooled kids play with each other? They should not be entitled to the "perks" of the public school--they CHOOSE to keep their kids out of the public schools for their own reasons, and therefore by that act, they are also giving up these things. If they wanted to participate, their kids should have to attend the schools, period. None of this bullshit about them paying taxes--every parent, every citizen within a given area ALSO pay taxes, and if they were sent to that public school, the needs of the kids would be met without further ado. But the parents are the ones who are excluding their kids from these schools, and therefore should be made to suffer the consequences of their actions right from the start.

[LeftyMom]

191. Let's just detach sports from the school system

Let's figure out what percentage of school funding goes to afterschool sports and switch that money over to parks and rec or something. That way the school people can teach, the recreation people can coach and maintain facilities and any kid who wants to play can, provided thier parents sign the waivers and whatnot.

How's that idea?

[kath]

199. YES, this is absolutely the best idea yet - public schools (as well as

universities) should get out of the sports business.

[Jimbo S]

219. Sports are an extension of the classroom

Why pick on just sports. Detach all extra curricular activities from the school.

[msongs]

197. christian terrorists strike again: home schools do NOT HAVE TO

meet the same standards the parasite politicians force on on PUBLIC schools.....therefore they should not have equal access........just another suck job from the cretin creationists intelligent design gang.

Msongs
www.msongs.com/political-shirts.htm

[Tesibria]

206. Again -- NOT true in many states.

Prejudice/ingorance rears its ugly head.

so sad

:cry:

i hate it when these posts show up here on DU, cause we're generally such a smart, well-informed group.

:cry::cry::cry::cry::cry:

[beyurslf]

203. They are not subject to the academic requirements of the school

if they don't go there. So what if mom says they made straight A's?

[Tesibria]

205. NOT true in MANY states. nt

[Arugula Latte]

209. No fucking way should this be allowed.

This pisses me off so much. You want public school priviledges? Then enroll in the public school. Period. :grr:

Many of us with kids in public schools work our asses off and donate untold hours to making sure the schools are adequate. These leeches can do the same if they want the benefits.

[hullbert]

213. several concerns about this idea

1. Would a home school student participate in extracurricular activities at the school closest to them, within their district, county, or could they theoretically pick any school to play at?

2. Which extracurricular activities would a home schooler be allowed to participate in and which would be off limits? (For example, would a home schooler be allowed to run for student government or write for the school paper, since technically it would be considered "extracurricular")

3. If there are limits on which activities are allowed, how would those activities be determined and who would determine them?

4. Is there a difference between activities that are considered electives and those considered student organizations? (When I was in school art, drama, and music classes were electives. However, there was also a drama club and a school band. In order to participate in these clubs, the student had to be enrolled in the elective, but every student in the elective did not have to be in the club.) Would a home schooler be allowed to take elective courses at a school, or are we only talking about after school activities?

5. Would a home school student be subject to any drug policies that a school district might have (i.e. mandatory drug testing)?

6. Would a team or club be required to keep a certain number of spots open for possible home school participants?

7. In the case that a home school student (or their parent) may have a grievance against their coach, advisor, etc, to whom would that student address that problem? (School principal, school board, town council or commissioner?)

8. If a school has a "varsity team" and a "junior varsity" team, which team would a home school student go out for? Would it be related to age of student, equivalent grade level the student is at, or other factors?

9. If the activity is competitive in nature (ex. if it's a sport or a debate team, etc.) would another school be able to challenge or appeal games due to the fact that the team had a student who was not enrolled in classes? The scenario would be: John, who is a home school student, makes the game winning shot. The losing team immediately contacts their regional sports authorities or conference and wants this game declared null and void because John is not enrolled in the school that he plays for.

These are just a few things I can think of off the top of my head.

[Horse with no Name]

211. Done correctly

by dedicated and educated parents, homeschooling is wonderful. The problem is that so many are done by the ignorant and uneducated. This is not a regulated industry. With schools, you know which are superior and which are underperforming, and when they are underperforming, the state steps in. Not so in home school. These kids continue in a realm of ignorance.
As far as the extracurricular activities--this is not fair to the kids who attend public school regularly, adhere to state standards for testing and attendance and keep their grades up to standards so that they can participate.
The parents pay school taxes, yes this is true. But when the schools receive money per capita, then the kids who go to public schools lose when their money not only pays for their extracurricular activities--but pay for Billy, Bobby and Betsy to play as well. By not putting their kids in the public school system, these kids are shortchanged on how many teachers the district can hire and the classes that usually get cut are the arts and sciences. So my child loses out by going to public school because my local tax dollars basically pay for the basics, and the per capita stipends pay for the extras (sports, extra art classes, sciences, etc).
So...the basics are there for any home school kids anytime they want to utilize them, and if they wish to attend class--then the money the district receives when they attend--can pay for their extras.
The way the homeschoolers want it--they want to pay their local school taxes and pick and choose the services they want. They get the benefit of smaller classes because this is their parents choice. But that choice makes it to where my child is in larger classes and receiving less attention. To me, the difference is the clear.
The properly home schooled kids receive the academic advantage and the public schooled kids receive the social advantage. It's a choice we all make as parents, and just as you have made yours to take your child out for valid reasons, I chose to leave mine in for valid reasons.
The argument doesn't stand clear to me "I pay school taxes therefore I should be able to utilize the facilities". So when your kid gets hurt on the school grounds--then my child is going to have to give something up when you sue the school district.
Definitely having your cake and eating it to.
Your taxes also support the prison system. Does that mean you want to utilize their facilities at will? What about the hospitals? Most cities have a hospital tax. Does that mean that you can walk in and out of the hospital because your tax dollar supports it? Of course it doesn't. It just means the basic facilities are there for you to use--the services just cost extra. It isn't a contract. If you want to use the hospital, you still pay for their services. If you want to use the school, then your child needs to attend so the school will receive state compensation for his attendance.

[onebox30]

214. I can see it now:

"OK Ezekiel, go play with the little secular demons but be sure not to speak with any of the colored ones. They have the curse of Ham, you know."

[LeftyMom]

215. You know, I just said that to LeftyKid

You sure have homeschoolers' pegged! :eyes:

Oh, and since some people around here are a bit dense sometimes I'll toss this in for the subtext impaired. :sarcasm:

[DebinTx]

220. They tried this in my school district and the district turned them down

because extracurricular activities involve no pass no play rules, attendance rules, drug testing, and fundraising by the kids. Allowing home schoolers into the school, during school hours, will also disrupt the others.
This was the choice home schoolers made when they pulled their kid out of public schools.