Father fears doctors will hasten Schiavo's death (Kill her with Morphine)

[truthpusher]

Father fears doctors will hasten Schiavo's death
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Page updated on 03-28-2005 at 19h56
PINELLAS PARK, United States (AFP)
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The father of Terri Schiavo made a desperate, 11th hour appeal for authorities to reconnect a feeding tube to his severely brain-damaged daughter, and said he feared doctors might try to hasten her death.

"I have a grave concern that they'll expedite the process to kill her with an overdose of morphine," Bob Schindler told the press Monday outside the hospice where his 41-year old daughter is a patient.

"She's alive and she's fighting like hell to live," he added, remarking on his daughter's "amazing, amazing endurance."

story: http://www.turkishpress.com/nw.asp?s=u&i=050328195614.w1vxehjw&t=Father%20fears%20doctors%20will%20hasten%20Schiavo's%20death

[meganmonkey]

1. 11th hour? More like the 22nd or 23rd hour... n/t

[BlueEyedSon]

2. His "15 minutes (of fame)" are almost up.

[LiberalFighter]

55. Not soon enough...

He has made a fool of himself!

[GetTheRightVote]

3. This father is desperate to get things going even w/ lies, sad very sad

:kick:

[katty]

53. My brother passed peacefully w/morphine drip monitoring

morphine drip (monitoring)is a humane and peaceful.

[calimary]

60. Welcome to DU. Same thing happened with my dad. They put him

on a morphine drip after taking out the ventilator tube he hated. He went peacefully within hours. This is such a mess. Such a mess. Evidently, Schiavo's father started this after Michael Schiavo refused to share a financial settlement with him. Schiavo apparently wanted to spend it all on his wife's care.

[ronnykmarshall]

4. I would love to slap the shit out of him.

Her family has to be some of the most ignorant people on earth.

[saigon68]

12. Religious Fundamentalism

Makes Crock Pots and Weirdos out of the most well meaning sheep.

[babylonsister]

5. I really have to believe this family

is getting some kind of sick gratification from being in the spotlight. How else to explain them? :shrug:

[bluedog]

6. thought they said no more TV shots?

n/t

[Melodybe]

9. A morphine overdose would be a kind way to go,

sure she won't feel anything but still it is the most humane way I can think of for her to die.

[whistle]

15. Doesn't morphine act on the cortex and not the stem of the brain?

...Or does it shut everything in the brain down?

[Beguine]

45. I THINK normally

it's actually the respiratory centers that shut down which causes death. I'm pretty sure those centers are in the brain stem. That mechanism is separate from the pain killing effects(different receptors).

[Mister K]

25. I cannot agree with you more

I honestly feel that they should have done a morphine push instead of removing her feeding tube. Very humane and she would have been gone within two days.

That would have been a real hell storm then...

[HockeyMom]

14. Dear Mr. Schindler,

I would strongly suggest that when this is all over you and the Missus seek professional counseling, preferably non-sectarian counseling. There comes a time when we all need to move on.

[Lugnut]

66. I hate being judgemental but

As a parent I so agree with you.

[anitar1]

48. They did say no more

Then yesterday the Schlinder son came out and spoke to the faithful and gave a short interview. After asking the faithful to go home on Saturday, they then turned around and said they did not mind people staying to protest. They speak with very forked tongue.IMHO, we will never hear any lucid statements from these folk. Also read yesterday that the father, Robert schlinder, pulled the plug on his own mother a couple of years ago.And DeLay agreeing to allow his father to die--thought they were passionate for saving lives ,even if they are brain dead.

[calimary]

62. I think it was last night during a Schiavo special when MUCH was made

of the dad's reappearance to talk to the various protestors and "thank" them for their support. There was the usual gang-bang of cameras and boom mikes following his every move, even while you couldn't see everything (for the people and protest signs obstructing the view sometimes).

SHEESH what a circus. What a circus. Yes, I too thought he'd said no more. But then why does he come out in public, knowing the news hounds will be at his heels every step of the way? What did he think would happen - nothing? That they wouldn't react or respond? Perhaps he's so accustomed to zilch from his daughter in that respect, but interpreting it as far more, that he probably expected the media to remain inert, too. I just don't know anymore. This whole thing's exhausting, and I'm not even a direct participant.

[Lindacooks]

67. That's what I heard too.

Gee, seems they can't keep their promises. Who'd a thunk it.

[Tyler Durden]

19. I believe it's called "Munchhausen Syndrome by Proxy"

Attention getting through the medical treatment of one's child.

[Lindacooks]

26. You know, I think you've got something there.

That diagnosis really makes sense.

[thinkingwoman]

27. *smacking forehead*

DOH!

Thank you for putting a label on the nonsensical crap that family has been involved in.

Munchhausen by proxy really seems to describe it.

[chookie]

29. Thanks, Doctor!

That is an insightful diagnosis. Well worth considering further.

[Tansy_Gold]

36. I could be wrong but I think Munchhausen by proxy involves

the parent setting up the situation that puts the child in danger so the parent can get the attention by "rescuing" the child.

While I suspect there was some parental influence on Terri's original eating disorder, I would hardly construe the present circus as Munchhausen by proxy. The Schindlers didn't directly or intentionally put Terri into this condition.

http://www.mbpexpert.com/definition.html

MUNCHAUSEN BY PROXY (MBP) (also called Munchausen Syndrome by Proxy, Munchausen by Proxy Syndrome, and Factitious Disorder by Proxy) is a label for a pattern of behavior in which caretakers deliberately exaggerate and/or fabricate and/or induce physical and/or psychological-behavioral-mental health problems in others.

This pattern of behavior constitutes a separate kind of maltreatment (abuse/neglect) that manifests as physical abuse, sexual abuse, emotional abuse, neglect, or a combination. The primary purpose of this behavior is to gain some form of internal gratification, such as attention, for the perpetrator.

The Schindlers are in fact minimizing Terri's problems, not exaggerating them, and they certainly did not cause them.

[slackmaster]

44. I think failing to honor her wish to die qualifies as maltreatment

The courts have repeatedly ruled that Terri Schiavo's wish was not to be kept alive should she ever get into a hopeless condition such as the one she's in.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

50. Try "Histrionic Personality Disorder".

Although I don't think I have ever heard of it in a whole family.

Oh well, something new every day.

[FlaGranny]

51. Well then, lets try a new diagnosis - like

Reverse Munchausen Syndrome by Proxy. The parents did not intentionally cause the original insult. They are not trying to worsen her condition because they will receive more attention by keeping her alive.

I understand that bulemia is common in kids who have overcontrolling parents. The only thing a bulemic feels she can control is her own food intake, and it is very obvious to me that her parents are overcontrolling in the extreme.

[slackmaster]

33. Bingo!

This has to be one of the most extreme cases of MBP ever.

[bunny planet]

38. Bingo.

Have thought so myself for some time.

[havocmom]

35. Variation on a theme

The theme being Munchausen by Proxy. Google it and some things come into sharper focus.

These people seem to have been seduced by the attention. Variation on Munchausen?

[Beguine]

43. The role of the public victim

becomes addictive. I've seen it happen in friends, though they keep it to their live journals, rather than national news. I initially, had some sympathy for them, though I think they're misguided, but it seems like this is becoming less about their grief and more about the attention.

[NMDemDist2]

47. Munchausen's Syndrome by Proxy-- check it out n/t

[LiberalFighter]

56. Jerry Springer type

[Solly Mack]

7. Gee, why doesn't he accuse the staff of rape as well as conspiracy

to commit murder.

Oh wait...he's saving the rape accusation for when the conspiracy to commit murder doesn't pan out for him.

[Democrats_win]

8. He's implying that they should prolong her suffering!

[elehhhhna]

11. Does he want them to stop the morphine? Why?

[Warpy]

23. Because he's a medically ignorant man who is grasping at straws

to the point of causing his daughter more harm. I think the hospice team will duly ignore his rantings and do everything by the book and according to protocol. Their records will speak for themselves, and no suit will get to court, even if he gets a whole army of fundy lawyers to sue for free.

There is little way to falsify narcotic records. The DEA sees to that.

[ngGale]

68. And speaking of Hospice heard through the media...

some complaint's are being made by other families who have patient's there. Hospice is a place to die a peaceful death, this media circus has made others angry - I don't blame them. Terri isn't the only person dying at that place. Give the girl the Morphine, FGS - it's been used for years to help people go without pain or suffering.

This doesn't look like a culture of life, it's an obsession with the unborn and dying. They don't seem to give a hoot about the life in between. Priorities please!

[whistle]

10. Ohoooo, I smell a frivolous medical malpractice lawsuit coming...

...and a SCOTUS challenge to this new law that Bush passed

:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

[thereismore]

13. A wrongful death suit to follow n/t

[xultar]

16. OMFG can someone get these people some help? n/t

[katinmn]

17. It's tragic.

The whole country is being held hostage to this death watch.

[Ganja Ninja]

18. Everybody's a blood thirsty killer and Terri's in their cross-hairs.

:eyes: :crazy: :tinfoilhat:

[movonne]

20. And what is the problem??? If they loved her they would want this...

[Whoa_Nelly]

21. Keep it going, Schindlers...keep it going...

and keep sorting through all those book/movie/song/album offers. :tinfoilhat:

[slackmaster]

22. A far-RW fundy coworker once told me he thought morphine was OK

For people who are dying, because it "helps them let go".

That's one of the few things he and I agreed on.

[peacetalksforall]

24. Who are we to believe? Caregivers are quoted as saying that

dehydration is a peaceful way to die, peaceful because it is not painful, and not requiring a lot of drugs. Others have continually said that she has not been in pain because of the loss of correlated brain function.

One thing is perfectly clear - we have been told so many opposing stories. As usual, we get little education from the MSMs. Especially from someone like me who is calculating the ratio of paid corporate and right wing propagandists. I am starting to measure 'opinion and claims' versus news (when I do have time and the stomach to watch and listen).

I watched for years when I first started discovering the right wing crap, then continued watching to confirm my suspicions, then continued to watch to observe how they did it, then continued to watch to learn who was who and who they were affiliated with and what their companies and foundation were doing to destroy us, then continued to watch to see if they would sustain the propaganda, then started to taper off, checking-in less and less to see if they were reversing their slippery slide into becoming USSR type controlling and brain washing and dumbing down pretend news companies. All through it I thank the heavens that I don't have to make a living by working for one of them.

[chookie]

30. Morphine: not just for pain

Morphine is not used only for pain relief.

It is also used to aid breathing, and this is its primary indication in most end-of-life cases.

[slackmaster]

31. Don't opiates suppress breathing (as well as coughs)?

Maybe suppressed breathing is the kind of "aid" a dying person actually needs.

Are you speaking from a position of medical expertise?

[chookie]

39. Dosage is critical

It's suppressive action, when used judiciously, is used to ease labored breathing, which is extremely uncomfortable and enervating to the patient.

[slackmaster]

41. Thanks, that makes a lot of sense

Don't the Schindler's know the opium poppy is a gift from God?

[Old and In the Way]

42. I think it relaxes the respiration system.

Relieves anxiety and creates a state of euphoria. A gradual increase in the morphine drip will slip the patient into cardiac arrest.

Of course, starvation/morphine is really moot in Mrs. Schiavo's case. And I think Mr. Schindler knows this quite well. Sadly, I think this family has gotten used to the publicity and will find the adjustment back to private life quite difficult.

[madrchsod]

28. yes they will give her morphine

they gave my mom morphine untill the last few days before her body stopped. her father doesn`t want her dead and buried because he has nothing else to do in his life. the worst part is that he doesn`t give a shit if terri stay`s "alive" forever. i hope all these people answer for this sometime in their lives

[truthpusher]

58. Does morphine even hasten death?

by the way, peace be with you and your Mom.

[0007]

32. I'm a Hospice & Aphasia volunteer and morphine will never be the

problem with anyone dying with pain. In fact it is a blessing. I don't think she is in pain and I would most certainly trust the Hospice workers and doctors over the hateful opinions of Bob Schindler, who must believe everyone (except the nuts) is against him.

[arwalden]

34. Tomorrow He'll Complain That She's Not Getting ENOUGH Morphine...

... and he'll claim that they are TORTURING her on purpose. :eyes:

[distantearlywarning]

37. And this would be bad because....?

Why is it that we think that putting down our suffering animals with dignity is the caring thing to do, but humans get to linger on for years and years in the name of "life"?

This may be one point on which I agree with the right wing lunatics. We DO sometimes treat our dogs better than we treat eachother.

What a load of crap. If I'm ever a vegetable, I hope that someone is loving and kind enough to inject me with morphine and let me drift off to the afterlife peacefully.

This lady's parents are selfish and attention-seeking. I have nothing but contempt for them. I hope they drown in their own misery. I've never seen such a pair of sick, disgusting, lying people.

[rainbow4321]

40. Guess this accusation goes along with..

this post on the Terrisfight.net webpage..<click on headlines>
As a former hospice nurse and a current hospital nurse, this really pisses me off. How dare they accuse nurses who are only trying to keep their dying patients out of pain of attempting to "hasten death".

"Are you being targeted for euthanasia"
March 23, 2005
Catholic Culture Library

Your life may be in danger if you are admitted to a hospital, especially if you are over 65 or have a chronic illness or a disability. The elderly are frequently dying three days after being admitted to the hospital. Some attribute it to "old age syndrome" while others admit that overdosing is all too common. Euthanasia is not legal but it is being practiced. Last year the New England Journal of Medicine reported that 1 in 5 critical care nurses admit to having hastened the death of the terminally ill!

[kskiska]

46. And if they HADN'T given her morphine

he'd be outraged that she's being made to suffer.

[Merlin]

49. They're right. Morphine kills pain and often induces death. That's good...

...provided death is not the intended outcome, and strong pain relief medication is needed.

My father passed away two years ago in this very same hospice in Pinesllas Park. It is a wonderful place. They are good people. They are able to tell when a patient is in their final hours, headed irreversibly toward death. That's when they start morphine treatment. It is beyond dispute that the morphine itself hastens death.

I understand this is a little understood, common practice in hospices throughout the nation and the world. It certainly argues for everyone in this condition to have a loved one who serves as their "medical advocate," paying very close attention to all medical procedures and decisions, and second guessing the professionals at every step of the way.

With that proviso, I found nothing wrong with them doing this in my Dad's case (he was in enormous pain from lung cancer), or in most similar cases, so long as the practice is not abused.


The following has apparently been scrubbed from its original site at:
http://www.eperc.mcw.edu/fastFact/ff_08.htm
But it is still available at EPERC's mirror site at:
http://www.mywhatever.com/cifwriter/library/eperc/fastfact/ff08.html

Fast Fact and Concept #8: Morphine and Hastened Death

1. Many physicians inaccurately believe that morphine has an unusually or unacceptably high risk of an adverse event that may cause death, particularly when the patient is frail or close to the end of his or her life. In fact, morphine-related toxicity will be evident in sequential development of drowsiness, confusion and loss of consciousness before his respiratory drive is significantly compromised.
2. Many physicians inappropriately call this risk of a potentially adverse event, a double effect, when it is in fact a secondary, unintended consequence. The principle of double effect refers to the ethical construct where a physician uses a treatment, or gives medication, for an ethical intended effect where the potential outcome is good (e.g., relief of a symptom), knowing that there will certainly be an undesired secondary effect (such as death). An example might be the separation of Siamese twins knowing that one twin will die so that the other will live. Although this principle of "double effect" is commonly cited with morphine, in fact, it does not apply, as the secondary adverse consequences are unlikely.
3. When offering a therapy, it is the intent in offering a treatment that dictates whether it is ethical medical practice:
a. if the intent in offering a treatment is desirable or helpful to the patient and the potential outcome good (such as relief of pain), but a potentially adverse secondary effect is undesired and the potential outcome bad (such as death), then the treatment is considered ethical
b. If the intent is not desirable or will harm the patient and the potential outcome bad, the treatment is considered unethical
4. All medical treatments have both intended effects and the risk of unintended, potentially adverse, secondary consequences, including death. Some examples are TPN, chemotherapy, surgery, amiodarone, etc.
5. Assisted suicide and Euthanasia are not examples of "double effect." The intent in offering the treatment is to end the patient's life.
6. If the intent in morphine in the scenario is to relieve pain and not to cause death, and accepted dosing guidelines are followed:
a. the treatment is considered ethical
b. the risk of a potentially dangerous adverse secondary effects is minimal
c. the risk of respiratory depression is vastly over-estimated.

Reference: Emanuel LL, von Gunten CF, Ferris FD. (1999) The Education for Physicians on End-of-Life Care (EPEC) curriculum. American Medical Association, Chicago.

[Plaid Adder]

52. OK...do they want her to suffer, or do they not want her to suffer?

I mean let's get this sorted out. First they don't want the feeding tube removed because starving her is cruel. Now he's worried that someone might give her an overdose of pain medication and thus spare her several days of suffering that she would otherwise have.

:wtf:

Yeesh,

The Plaid Adder

[truthpusher]

54. It's about something other than Terri's suffering....

....anybody who does what this family has done has no clue about what causes the suffering of another. These are obviously selfish motives on the part of the family.

[raysr]

57. That's the best way

to go out!

[VegasWolf]

59. Yes, so, and the problem is? n/t

[AuntiBush]

61. I Can Talk! Been there! And it was peaceful for all!

I told the M.D.'s "please, go ahead and morph him!"

My late husband. Won't go any further, but the PARENTS should have been ordered into GRIEF & LETTING GO Counseling long, long ago. He felt no pain, and was at peace. It was "for him," and "about him," not about me! So, I know. Trust me on this one.

I hate to say this, but I'm pretty good at reading body language and eyes. It appears to me the parents are "thriving" on all the attention. They've enabled all of this, and without one ounce of compassion for those in the hospice suffering, as well.

Not to mention causing more HAVOC in our already TRAUMATIZED country. Have they no dignity, have they no humility, have they no mercy for others!?!?! Much less, their daughter?

[calimary]

65. I believe you. My dad went out that way, after a HUGELY painful

and long and debilitating bout with late-onset diabetes. Lordy, Lordy it was awful. AWFUL! How he strained against that damned respirator tube, trying to talk around it, trying to wiggle around it. Miserable. He was hospitalized in intensive care for the last two weeks of his life. The first week he was mentally alert. The second week, he'd lapsed in and out of a coma, and by the last days, he was basically gone. When we finally convinced the hospital to remove the tube (my mother finally had to write them a letter - they kept fretting about their liability), they put him on a morphine drip. Late on a Monday night. He was gone by 8am the following day.

At one point, when he was unresponsive, I asked one of the nurses how they could tell if someone was in pain when they were out, like my dad was. She said they watched the other signals like pulse and blood pressure and erratic monitor readings and fitful movement to indicate discomfort. She said they determined that my dad was not in pain because he just lay there, didn't stir in any way, and his vital signs were all slow and steady and deliberate - no spikes, no variables, no erratic movement, no nothing.

It sure sounds to me as though everyone making all these pronouncements about how Terri is in pain and she's responding to this and actually talking about that and doing such-and-such and feeling such-and-such have a) no medical expertise and b) have never been through anything like this with any ailing friends or family members. And yes, it sounds to me as though Schiavo's parents are completely seduced by the attention. Control-freaks - evidently running the kind of household that induces one vulnerable family member to turn to bulimia... They'll be a mess when the circus finally leaves town. I wonder how long they'll drag this out after she dies? They DO MOST DESPERATELY need counseling about letting go. And they'll likely be the first to insist that there's nothing wrong with them and they don't need anything of the sort.

And unfortunately for them and for all the rest of us who are being dragged through this against our will, there are plenty of enablers out there more than willing to help. Opportunistic infections they are. Sigh...

There will be NO winners here.

[LiberalFighter]

63. I've got a solution for Mr Schindler to make sure Terri isn't overdosed

Mr Schindler to do like food tasters do for kings. He should intake the same solution that Terri takes. If he dies then he proves that Terri was killed on purpose.

[caligirl]

64. Wouldn't that be nice. I can't believe the hospice

has allowed this to happen on their grounds or in front of their hospitial. Its so insensitive to the needs of the other patients and their families. This should have been stopped along time ago. Free speech zones for rightwing nuts too.

[malmapus]

69. "Father fears his 15 mins are about up" is more like it

I am rapidly loosing the sympathy I had for these people, been trying to put myself in their shoes but its just not working.