Now Terri's family starts squabble over her funeral

[truthpusher]

Moderator: I posted this story earlier and I think it was (seemingly) inadvertently combined with a story about Terri Schiavo having communion. Other than a brief mention, this is obviously a different story. If you combine it again or lock it, I will not post it again. Maybe there is a link to the two stories that I don't understand? Either way this is a story that anyone following the Schiavo story would definitely want to hear.

Now Terri's family starts squabble over her funeral
-----------------------------
Mon 28 Mar 2005
RICHARD LUSCOMBE
IN PINELLAS PARK, FLORIDA
-----------------------------
THE legal fight to keep brain-damaged Terri Schiavo alive appeared to be over last night, but a new row erupted between her husband and her parents over what will happen to her body after she dies.

Michael Schiavo, who had his wife’s feeding tube removed by court order ten days ago, has made arrangements for her to be cremated and her ashes interred in his family’s plot in Pennsylvania.

But Bob and Mary Schindler want their daughter to have a Roman Catholic funeral service and to be buried near their home in Clearwater, Florida. They are also furious that her husband denied her an Easter communion.

(snip)

Michael Schiavo’s lawyer, George Felos, said a judge had already backed the cremation plan. "My client will scrupulously follow the court order," he said. "Her ashes will be interred in the Schiavo family plot in Pennsylvania, where Terri and Michael grew up."

complete story: http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=327962005

[Momof1]

1. Terri was already given communion before the feeding tube

was pulled. It was done by court order. She is to receive a second communion, per court order that the parents already know about. It was probably done today.

In the same court order, it stated that she was to be cremated and buried in PA. The parents have known about this. This isn't a surprise to anyone, especially her parents and their lawyers.

[Windy]

3. I hate to say it, but her family is exploiting her.

They have their faces plastered on TV constantly and I even heard her brother today stating that cameras should be allowed in his sisters room to film her. I find it disgusting.

[Doremus]

10. The family is exploiting Terri and R. Terry is exploiting the family

And the politicians are (or were) exploiting everybody. What a merry web of exploitation.

I'm reminded of the old saying that a person can't be exploited without their permission, but in this instance the only one of the group who's being forced along for the ride is Terri. :(

[pokercat999]

30. Too bad

Terri's not walking around and we aren't burying the parents and husband.

[Virginian]

37. 15 minutes of fame.

Is this really still about Terri or are they addicted to the attention?

[Dulcinea]

66. This stopped being about Terri a long time ago.

Now it's about that evil creep Randall Terry getting as much face time on TV as possible. I can't wait for him to go back under his rock.

[oncall]

125. so are the fundamentalists

haven't you noticed that terri schiavo's physical abilities have remarkably improved in the last week when they didn't even change over the past fifteen years?

[proud2BlibKansan]

44. She was given communion on Easter Sunday

but her mouth was too dry to swallow it. So she just got a bit of communion wine.

[jdj]

63. about the most assinine thing the news has ever reported.

you forgot the /sarcasm off/ button

the woman has had a feeding tube for how many freaking years?

she
can't
swallow

everytime I read about this bullshit story I cringe.

[orthogonal]

2. In three days, it won't matter

Why does it matter?

I mean, she's going to roll away the rock and rise up again in three days anyway, right?

Happy Easter!

[Erika]

11. Rock and roll gurneys in Texas in the death chamber

I'll never forget the clip I watched about Texas when W was Governor. They bragged about strapping the prisoners on to the gurneys and rock and rolling them to the death chamber. Now Bush is for life?

[AuntiBush]

115. Or how about when W made fun of the Re-Born Woman

and sent her to her death... mocking her on televison; and then there was that young, mentally retarded guy sent to W's house of horrors.

And W broke records for dening LIFE as Tex Gov, but now, flip-flopping around poor Terri along with his bag of wing-nuts Repuk buds, and whako follows say this is "different."

In the meantime, have any of them protested over 1 life lost in Iraq?
How about the billions, mounting to trillons of MISSING $$$ from Social Security to Halliburton.

:hide:

[okieinpain]

4. what I don't understand is why won't this guy let these people have

something go their way. he doesn't have to be a complete bastard about it.

[Erika]

6. What are you talking about?

The Schindler family has over 24 court hearings.

[okieinpain]

50. just speaking for myself. If I was in his shoes and they were wanting

to keep her around as a pet. I would let them, they are after all her parents. he has won on the pulling the feeding tube, the very least he could do is allow them to bury her. I mean is that so hard to do.

and please understand I'm no fan of theirs, to me it's just the right thing to do.

[Skittles]

127. I would not let a loved one of mine waste away like she has

never

[mondo joe]

128. Parenthood does not trump her rights or his.

And though I'm not religious many others are, and they believe as the bible says a child will leave their parents and become one with their spouse.

This is his family plot and she is his family. That's what happens when your kids grow up and marry.

[ima_sinnic]

148. "keep her around as a pet"??!! YOU ACTUALLY CAME OUT &

SAID THAT!! oh my #%&*^ing word. I am speechless.

let me get this straight: if you were to have an accident or illness that caused your brain to die, you wouldn't mind if someone kept your "living" but unfeeling, unthinking, unseeing, unhearing, unspeaking, completely unknowing body around for a "pet"??

UNBELIEVABLE!!

like someone said in another thread, she could be the Schindlers' personal Betsy Wetsy doll.

[Terre]

9. She is his wife

and he has the RIGHT to decide how and where her remains are to be interred. Just because her parents refuse to let her go, even in "life", and because they've "lost" the court battles doesn't mean he should give in to them. For heaven's sake - what if she had died naturally, and with no complications, would he still have to abide by their wishes?

None of us know the depth of his love for her still, but I'd guess it's pretty damn strong, and his current partner has nothing to do with that.

Her parents need to get on with their life, and let their daughter go.

[Erika]

12. Agreed

Totally.

[IndianaGreen]

14. Now who is being patriarchal?

Women are not the property of the husband when they marry, despite the archaic practice to taking the man's name, as if a title of property was passed from the father to the husband.

The point in here is that Michael Schiavo claims that it was Terri that wanted to be cremated and her ashes buried in Pennsylvania. A remarkable claim, to say the least.

[daleo]

20. The same would apply if he were PVS and she were well.

She would then have priority in these matters, as the spouse. It isn't necessarily patriarchal, although if the genders were reversed I am not sure this would have ever been an issue. My hunch is that a man's wishes (as stated by his wife, and verified by witnesses) for his medical care would never be questioned by the parents or the religious groups in this debate.

[w4rma]

22. It's the law. If you have a problem with husbands and wives with priority

in taking care of one another when the other cannot make decisions, then get the marriage laws changed so that someone (who, I don't know) else has 1st priority.

[okieinpain]

54. oh, I don't think it has to go that far, to me the bickering is just being

petty, they did this to me, so I'll do this to them. all of this thermoil is suppose to be about the love these folks have for this women. they should both sit down and try and find some common ground.

[IndianaGreen]

68. I think you will see a push to review the laws at the State level

to deal with situations such as this in which there is a dispute between the spouse of the severely impaired and the blood relatives of the other spouse.

This issue will not end with the death of Terri Schiavo!

Here is what Joe Lieberman (remember the 2000 VP nominee?) said about the Schiavo case on Meet the Press on Easter Sunday:

The fact is that, though I know a lot of people's attitude toward the Schiavo case and other matters is affected by their faith and their sense of what religion tells them about morality, ultimately as members of Congress, as judges, as members of the Florida state Legislature, this is a matter of law. And the law exists to express our values.

I have been saying this in speeches to students about why getting involved in government is so important, I always say the law is where we define the beginning of life and the end of life, and that's exactly what was going on here. And I think as a matter of law, if you go--particularly to the 14th Amendment, can't be denied due process, have your life or liberty taken without due process of law, that though the Congress' involvement here was awkward, unconventional, it was justified to give this woman, more than her parents or husband, the opportunity for one more chance before her life was terminated by an act which was sanctioned by a court, by the state.

These are very difficult decisions, but--of course, if you ask me what I would do if I was the Florida Legislature or any state legislature, I'd say that if somebody doesn't have a living will and the next of kin disagree on whether the person should be kept alive or that is whether food and water should be taken away and her life ended that really the benefit of the doubt ought to be given to life. And the family member who wants to sustain her life ought to have that right because the judge really doesn't know, though he heard the facts, one judge, what Terri Schiavo wanted. He made a best guess based on the evidence before him. That's not enough when you're talking about aggressively removing food and water to end someone's life.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7284978/

[barb162]

94. well I sure agree with these comments by Joe and I haven't been

agreeing with him lately

[IndianaGreen]

108. I don't recall ever agreeing with Lieberman on anything

but I agree with him here, as I agree with similar views expressed by Jesse Jackson, Ralph Nader, Christopher Hitchens (no friend of the Vatican), and others.

For some strange reason I am also mulling over what the pandering Hillary Clinton tried to say about listening to people that hold strong values about life. Somehow, Hillary doesn't sound as much a panderer today as I thought she was when she uttered those words a couple of months ago.

As another DUer pointed out over the weekend, Americans have become the good Germans of today, accepting without question the loss of civil liberties, torture, and civilian casualties. As this DUer said, more eloquently than I could, we live in a cultural fear of weakness, difference and disability and scapegoating.

[barb162]

110. gotta laugh about your first line.

By the way Al Sharpton also is talking out about this case and echoing J. Jackson. I would agree with the DUer you mention

[chascarrillo]

24. Not as remarkable...

... as Some Random Guy On Message Board(tm) asserting that he knows everything about Michael and Terri Schiavo's relationship.

Okay, here;s an idea, IndianaGreen. You go down to Florida and ask Terri what her funeral wishes are. Let us know what she says, okay?

[Sandpiper]

25. What in the world does patriarchy have to do with it?

They are still legally married, and as her spouse, he is her legal next of kin and has the right to make whatever funeral arrangements he sees fit.

If the roles were reversed, Terri would have the very same powers regarding the final disposition of Michael's remains.


And once she's dead, I promise that her corpse won't give two shits whether it's buried, cremated, launched into outer space, or housed in cryogenic storage.

[Selteri]

28. Points

1 - The cognitive spouse has first say, if they are also unable to speak for their spouse then their parents or closest relative is contacted, after that it goes to the state and doctors if nobody can be found and no appropriate documents have been found.

The courts assume that in the process of falling in love, marrying and living 5 years together that they have been more intimate with each other than either were with their parents or family. That they planned what they wanted to do when they got old together.

I know my X and I talked about all those things... only I transfered my various papers over to her before transfering them back after we parted ways when the relationship became abusive to me... I suddenly felt that it was not a good thing to have them in chage of anything with me.

[LiberalFighter]

35. You forgot to include the kids if any and if they are of age

[Selteri]

124. My bad. I knew I forgot something but couldn't remember what it was. NT

[LiberalFighter]

34. Where does it say that it was Terri's wish to be cremated?

It is Michael's wish for her to be cremated. And unless Terri had made her wishes known it is the husband's decision as to how that is done. Not the parents! Not any other relatives! Not the schindler supporters! It is Michael's wishes that matter. IF Terri was single then it would first be her wishes if any recorded otherwise any of her remaining next of kin. If she was widowed or divorced and had kids then the kids would have that right if they were old enough.

As for the property of the husband statement... if the shoes were on the other feet. Terri would have had the right to make that decision if Michael had died before her. Would you then say that Michael was the property of Terri in that situation?

[Renew Deal]

48. It would go the other way if she was alive.

If she was alive and he was on the tube, she would have all the rights.

[saigon68]

56. The Younger Bush Criminal Jeb, should decide where she's planted

He after all, is nearer to GOD than any of them.

[gnofg]

62. Indiana

this guy(schiavo) takes the cake. He is a mean person. He didn't want to give her communion on Easter. He finally relented but the priest couldn't directly put his hand on her. Now he wants to bury her in Penn. If he loved her so much wouldn't he want to have her buried in a place he could visit regularly. I ask everyone is this what you would do? He is a total ssshole and very mean

[Sandpiper]

73. I'll tell you what takes the cake

People on an internet message board acting as though a total stranger owes them some sort of explanation as to the funeral arrangements he makes for his wife, as though it had something to do with them.

:eyes:

[onenote]

137. how do you know that he isn't planning on moving back to PA

If I were him I'd leave Florida so fast...and he's having her ashes interred at a family plot where, presumably, he plans on being buried as well.

onenote

[TankLV]

118. Now you are being ridiculous. She is his SPOUSE.

If it were the husband that was dying, the WIFE would have the RIGHT to decide what to do with HER husband's remains.

Yes, it IS a term of "ownership". As in each taking care of and having sole responsibility over EACH OTHER!

The "patriarchal" crap is the PARENTS insisting on having THEIR way IN SPITE of Terri and Michael GIVING THEMSELVES TO EACH OTHER in matrimony. The moment this is done, the parents "don't exist" as far as "god" and the "law" is conserned.

The MARRIED COUPLE is a new legal entity - and as such, only THEY have jurisdiction over EACH OTHER!

Stop trying to make a mountain out of a moehill.

[onenote]

134. why is it remarkable?

In my experience it is common for a wife to want to be married with her husband (and vice versa). I can't think of any married people that I know who want to be separated from each other and buried with their respective parents.

onenote

[onenote]

138. If I were Michael I wouldn't trust the parents

I've heard it suggested as a compromise that Michael allow the family to have a Catholic funeral service, after which her remains would be returned to her for cremation and interment in Pennsylvania. It sounds reasonable, but if I were Michael I'd have two big concerns:

1) That the funeral service wouldn't be a private family/friends mass, but some big, open to the public spectacle that will be hijacked by hardliners who will use the occasion not merely to memorialize Terri but to lambaste and attack Michael. Why should he facilitate that?

2) That the family will not return her body -- it will be "spirited" away somewhere and Michael will be forced to resort to the courts to reclaim her body.

onenote

[Renew Deal]

49. Imagine all the fundy nuts worshiping at her grave after she dies.

Besides that, he was able to prove in court a few years ago that she wanted to be cremated.

[okieinpain]

51. yes, what ever he saw in her and fell in love with. was do in some

part to the way they raised her. they had her for a lot more of her life then he did. he should try to raise above the bullshit and give them something out of the situation.

I don't understand why it's so hard for everyone to feel some compassion for these folks. it's always hard to bury a child.

[mondo joe]

133. Any lack of compassion is based soley on the fact that they

cause so much misery to others.

She is his wife and they will be buried a family plot together.

They don't need anyone's approval, and the fact that anyone thinks they have a say in this PRIVATE matter is a sign of poor boundaries.

[MaraJade]

117. This is the main and only point. . .

Parental rights ended the day the couple said "I do."

Terry's parents only want her body so that they can set up some kind
of sick martyr's shrine. Next thing you know, they'll be recommending canonization.

The husband (or the wife, in the obverse condition) is the only one
who has any rights as legal surrogate in this case. Those parents
are way past due in giving up their fight. They really need to let this go.

[sidpleasant]

15. According to yesterday's NY Times....

...Terri Schiavo's father precipitated the feud with his son - in - law by demanding a cut of the $1M malpractice settlement that was awarded to the Schiavos after her heart stoppage and subsequent brain damage. Apparently that demand infuriated Mr. Schiavo, leading him to break off with his wife's family. The feud has intensified to the present day, fueled no doubt by the Schindler's constant unfounded allegations that Mr. Schiavo has and is mistreating their daughter. The Schindlers are funded by a cabal of right wing foundations and anti - abortion creeps so they have a bottomless pit of money to pay for endless litigation; Mr. Schiavo has spent almost all of the settlement fighting back. It's hardly surprising that by now he's not inclined to grant them any favors.

[GramStin]

19. I think Michael Schiavo

comes out looking better than anyone in this situation. I can't believe day after day, news show after news show, they put people on who call him a murderer, adulterer, say he used to hit Terri, they saw bruises on her etc and the anchors take their word for it and never have anyone from the Schiavo family on to refute these allegations. At least he's not out there screaming with a bull horn or hogging a microphone! Any lawyers here? Could he sue for slander/libel?

[chickenscratching]

81. i agree

about Michael Schiavo coming out looking his best. I can recall a gazillion news articles and news anchors screaming for his demise. But i can count on one hand how many times i've seen Michael Schiavo on the news.
i wonder if he considers it in his best interests if he could go after the Schindlers or the press, but maybe he just wants to close this chapter on his life.
:shrug:

[okieinpain]

53. yeah, well he should try and understand where they are coming from

money or not. he should cut them some slack, I would whether i hated them or not.

[ribrepin]

21. Michael should have stepped out when his new girlfriend had the first baby

He's won all the other battles, why can't he let her be buried the way the schindler's want?

[w4rma]

23. This shows me that he obviously still loves her and considers her part of

his family. If this is how she wanted to be buried, then why should anyone but her (through him) decide that?

[toopers]

38. Why not compromise?

Cremate her as Michael supposedly said she wanted, but spread her ashes and set up a memorial near the Schindler's home in Fla so they can visit the site more easily.

[LiberalFighter]

69. The parents can't do their own memorial for Terri in their own home?

Many people go so far as to create a shrine to a loved one in their own home. Personally, I would consider that going too far. But a picture or two with a a few items would do the job. They could just as easily buy a spot for Terri at a cemetery maybe even just have some of Terri's belongings or memories buried in the spot.

Along the same subject I find people who leave white crosses along the highway where their spouse or mostly children die as a result of a car crash to be wrong. First, because they have no legal right to use public right of way for their personal use. Second, they are not buried there. Third, I personally I wonder what the circumstances were that resulted in their death? Being out late and/or not driving for conditions?

[tammywammy]

72. From what I've read

Catholics cannot have their remains scattered. They can be cremated, but then must be buried or in a mausoleum.

I assume, that she's being buried in Pennsylvania because that's where Michael will be buried whenever he passes on. It is where both of them grew up.

The parents have the right to have their own memorial service. I think that Michael is also trying to prevent her grave site becoming a circus side show (Step up and see where Terri's buried!!)

[toopers]

80. I wonder how it works in New Orleans . . .

where the remains of several people eventually gets mixed together?

[tammywammy]

104. I don't quite understand what you mean

How are they "mixed together."
I've been to cemetaries in Southern Louisiana, and instead of being buried 6 feet under, they're buried above ground, because they're under sea level. It's a concrete/marble structure, that fits a coffin or two.

I'm not sure about cremation.

[calimary]

114. This one's a good point. Maybe he is trying to keep her whereabouts

private after she dies. You HAVE to know that the Randall Terrys of the world will stage all kinds of maudlin photo-ops and other public hysteria displays at her gravesite, followed by all the empty Coke cans and burger wrappers and cigarette butts and Starbucks cups and the rest of the shit the crowd leaves behind. They'll take it over and remake it into THEIR property and THEIR shrine and further desecrate her memory and her family's privacy. I'm with him on this, even while being up-in-the-air about cremation. I just don't know HOW I feel about it, either way. My dad was adamant about being cremated, and while my mom would have preferred the funeral and burial with all the hoo-hah, she bowed to his wishes. He was scattered in the ocean a mile off his favorite beach. I just don't know, myself. And we're Catholics. But if someone else has to decide for me, it'll be MY SPOUSE, NOT some other family member, and not my mother, either, who decides. It's supposed to be the husband or wife who decides if the decedent is/was married at the time of death.

[tblue37]

26. After what they have said about him and what they have put him through,

why should he do anything at all for them?

[chaumont58]

45. Schindlers have treated Michael like he is less than human

And you are surprised he won't kiss their ass?

[okieinpain]

55. well hell then he's no better then them. this is the same shit happening

in africa, and with gangs on our streets. we all think they are crazy, so why give this guy a break.

[eleanor]

61. Forgiveness is divine ...

But you cannot blame Mr. Schiavo for not being willing to cross the compromise line after all this family has accused him of in the past 10 years. Why didn't he give up? Why won't he give up now? Methinks perhaps he truly believes he owes it to Terri. He is the only one of the parties to afford her some amount of privacy. He could have easily walked away from this situation many years ago, but has not. His motives have been questioned and the right has vilified him at every turn. Logic leaves us with only one conclusion - he is valiantly and courageously trying to follow his wife's wishes. If the Schindlers truly want him to honor their wishes, they are the ones who need to come to him, on bended knee and beg his forgiveness. They might be suprised ...

[okieinpain]

77. yes I can blame him. there is no way that he could or should expect

for that girls mother and father to just walk away from here, because she's married. that's crazy as hell, he has too know that any parent will do whatever they think is in the best interest of their child, no matter who or how long they've been married.

and I will ignore the on bended knee remark.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

86. Did you call Mrs. Schiavo ......

...........a "girl"?

That would explain your attitude in this case. You see her as a child, a possession, something that should be "given back" to her parents, who were her original owners, right?

You've got a lot to learn about love and loyalty and what it really means to be the next-of-kin to someone with whom you exchanged marriage vows before God and the State.

Michael Schiavo is a hero. Mrs. Schiavo's parents have exploited their daughter, trashed her by circulating a video that was made in violation of a court order that Michael had requested specifically to protect his wife's privacy and dignity, and sold themselves to the rightwingnuts, all the while claiming they love their daughter.

That's not love.

What Michael Schiavo has demonstrated during all his travails - brought on by the Schindlers - is love.

[okieinpain]

93. oh, he is not a hero. come on now, please some of the posting

sound like free republic.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

96. I beg your pardon

He is nothing but a hero, maintaining his dignity, and attempting to maintain his wife's dignity through this Schindler-generated circus.

[okieinpain]

98. well I feel different about that. to me he's a little off like the rest of

those protestors. I can honestly tell you that if my wife wanted to be taken off of the life support, and her mother wanted otherwise. I would defer to her mother.

I'm not mad at the guy, and would invite him to dinner. but I don't agree with him. and I don't agree with you, he's not a hero.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

100. Then I would say

you'd be so horribly disrespectful and ugly to your wife, there are no words to express my disgust with you.

I suspect your wife would be just as disgusted.

That's horrible, what you just wrote about your wife and her wishes. Just absolutely horrible.

[okieinpain]

103. oh it's not digusting nor horrible. and if you really believe that

you're just like the fundies.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

105. So, who'd you marry?

The mother or the daughter?

[okieinpain]

106. don't get it. what do you mean.

[TankLV]

121. There's that "projection" again!

And you still don't see it!

[ima_sinnic]

146. jeez, what a swell husband! that IS horrible!!

so it doesn't matter WHAT your wife wants, what her mother wants is more important. what the other poster asks is darn right: who'd you marry, your wife or her mother? do you always kiss your mother-in-law's ass?
to not honor your own wife's wishes makes you a liar.
"yes, dear, I'll honor your wishes--unless somebody asks me to do otherwise, then I won't hesitate to betray you."
sheesh! how come you're not down in Pinellas Park butting in with the rest of the disrespectful busybodies who have absolutely no right, no legitimacy, and no intellect to be there in the first place.

[TankLV]

120. And you should know! Your's ARE the most like that site!

And what's hilarious is, YOU don't even see it!

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

Can you say "projection"?!

[chaumont58]

116. I'm lost, what does this have to do with street gangs?

A lot of crap has been thrown at Michael Schiavo, throught the media, but where did they get the dirt?
The Schindlers have behaved atrociously. That is a god damn circus in front of the hospice. Michael did not bring that on, the Schindlers did. The repukes and their supporters lie through their teeth, regarding Terri's condition.
I feel some empathy for their loss, but this circus did not occur in a vacuum.

[okieinpain]

144. nope, you're right. but you got to realize that a parent will do just

about anything to save a child. I don't fault them for caring about their child. I do blame the repugs for using their pain for their own polictical gain. but what the parents are doing is not surprising to me.

[chaumont58]

145. I am a parent

and a widower. Both my parents are dead. Nothing matches the loss of a spouse. Ask professionals who deal with grief counseling. The parents have had fifteen years to deal with this. A court of law weighed testimony on Terri Schiavo's position on being in this condition. Its what courts do: weigh evidence. The Schindler inability to come to grips with their daughter's condition seems almost pathological. A some point, a rational person accepts what he can not change.

[okieinpain]

151. yeah, some do, some don't. unhealthy probably so, but that's the

way it is.

[ima_sinnic]

147. it's not surprising that they want to keep an uninhabited husk "alive"?

somehow that DOES surprise me, and it should shock everybody else too.
the parents should be charged with defrauding the public for heavily editing hours and hours of videotape to make random movements appear to be "responses." and they continue to LIE about how she "communicates" with them. they are bilking the public, knowing that Joe Blow doesn't know crap about what it means to have no higher brain function--not figuratively, the way Joe Blow has no "higher brain function," but LITERALLY. there's nobody home, nada, zip, zilch, she's GONE and can't see, hear, taste, smell, feel, or THINK.

[okieinpain]

152. oh, shit. come on man. cut the people some slick. hell if we're going

to charge them for that, then we would have to lock up congress (dems and repugs).

[TankLV]

119. That is BULLSHIT - and you know it!

He owe them NOTHING.

He is NOTHING like these vultures AT ALL.

So people wish me dead because I'm gay, and something is wrong with ME because I won't forgive or I refuse to "like" these people?

Sure!

What utter bullshit.

[okieinpain]

143. he might not owe them, but you can damn sure believe that his

wife didn't tell him to fuck over her parents in the process. and I don't wish you dead because you're gay. you know hate is a double edge sword.

[TankLV]

149. It sure is - and the fuckers who wish harm to me better be damn careful

because I will NOT be turning the other cheek!

So you are saying we should not fight back when we are attacked.

And Terry didn't tell her parents to fuck over her husband in the process either, which is exactly the way they have and are behaving - and I'm sure she wanted HIM to do exactly as he is doing.

Not giving in to the parent's childish demands is not "fucking them over".

Get a clue.

Has Michael said ANYTHING derrogatory about the parents? NO!

Have the parents said PLENTY derrogatory crap about Michael? YOU BET THEY HAVE!

And incidentally, I did not accuse YOU of wishing me dead - but it is VERY TELLING that YOU took what I said personally. VERY TELLING.

I think you "protest to much"!

So, black persons should love the KKK and Jews the Nazis, and us GLBT should love the christo-fascists, the very groups that wish harm to us? and if we don't there's something wrong with us?

Unbelievable crap you spew!

Utter garbage.

[okieinpain]

153. many blacks do love the KKK, (blackwell in ohio), and many glbt

love the christo-fascists, they are called log cabin repubicians. and for the "VERY TELLING", you could not be more wrong. I could give a shit less about your personal life.

[oncall]

126. because he is the only one fighting for what she wanted-that's why.

the family is fighting for their own mixed up guilt trip.

[okieinpain]

142. no they are not, they are doing what a lot of parents would do.

if you hate the freepers that are using them, I can understand that. but you guys are really wrong with this hate the parents shit. it seems that if there is anything that has repug smell to it. you guy's hate it right or wrong.

that's bad policy to me.

[zipplewrath]

60. You don know nuttin'

Yes, I'm being a bit provocative. One thing to remember here is that this woman was anorexic. She had "issues". We don't know what she told Michael in the dark of the night. We don't know what she said she wanted, and didn't. We don't know what relationship she had with her family. My wife and I have had extensive conversations on a wide range of subjects to which my family are both unaware, and would object strenuously. Michael could just have decided to be mean out of spite, or he could be honoring his wife, and her wishes, to the grave. I'll choose not to judge. YMMV.

[IndianaGreen]

67. Did you see her wedding pictures? She was heavy then!

She lost a lot of weight and began to color her hair blond after she married Saint Michael. I suggest that her eating disorder either began or became aggravated after she began her blissful married life.

Some forms of spousal abuse, as well as co-dependency, do not involve physical violence.

One of Terri's friends that now lives in Ohio described on TV that Saint Michael was a very controlling person who always checked the mileage in the car everytime she drove it.

[barb162]

74. good point

[OldLeftieLawyer]

88. She was heavy in high school

Weighed about 250 pounds. Lost 100 of it on NutraSystem. She was always a chuby girl, and then she discovered purging.

All BEFORE she met Mr. Schiavo.

Get your facts right, will you, please?

[ElectroPrincess]

97. How about this notion: It could be equally feasible that her ...

control freak parents started putting pressure on her. Further, it seems like the parents, being so domineering, never left the picture. In fact, the added stress of "intrusive" parents helped her slip *over the edge" into severe case of bulimia ... being able to control her weight was psychologically the ONLY control she had in her personal life.

My parents were intense, and at times - controlling, but this couple is way way OUT THERE. I'd go neurotic in many ways if I had to tolerate such obnoxious and "always right" parents.

[thinkingwoman]

109. from what I've read

she was heavier before her wedding...lost weight...met Michael Schiavo and got married...lost more weight.

Eating disorders often start during adolescence, and often occur as a result of controlling/abusive parents.

[LiberalFighter]

70. Who would know a person better? The spouse or the parents?

In most cases the spouse.

There would be many discussions that would never be discussed or not as deeply with a parent.

There might be a few discusssions only with parents probably more with one parent than the other.

[okieinpain]

78. ok, so I take it that you have kids. and now that they are married

you have no concerns for their welfare.

[zipplewrath]

79. Plenty

But no control. They make horrible choices on regular basis. I do not intervene. They both have spouses and we are cut out of virtually all of the discussions on health care. "A man will leave his mother, and a woman leave her home, and they shall travel on to where the two shall be as one." Don't even get me started on the finances. It's their life. When they ask, I offer what I can. They don't ask nearly as much as I'd like.

[okieinpain]

83. oh come now. if your child was sick, and the spouse wants some

thing that you do not agree with. you're telling me that you're going to keep quiet.

[zipplewrath]

92. Well I ain't going to court

The analogy is a bit of a stretch because on this specific subject, I have some understanding of their wishes. They do things already that drive me nuts. Not much I will do. But I know with my own wife she's asked me to ensure some things her family might not be crazy about if I actually had to follow through. I can't see doing the same thing TO my children that I wouldn't want done to me. Their life, their choices.

[okieinpain]

101. sorry, I just don't believe that you would walk away from something

like this. a child is aways a child. you respect them, but you never give up your right as a parent. sorry I just don't believe you.

[TankLV]

122. You are really something. Someone tells you what they would do,

and what they believe, and yet you still act as some repuke judge who "knows" better than the person themself!

Talk about arrogance - and utter complete BULLSHIT!

The poster TOLD you what they would do, and you choose to even argue with that!

Some people deserve to be on ignore - but then the rest of us with more than half a brain would miss all the fun of really stupid posts!

[zipplewrath]

132. Belief trumps fact?

How familiar, although not usually on this board. I have told you that I already HAVE watched them do things I do not find smart. One of them ended up in the hospital because of it. They do very foolish things, dangerous things on occasion. I'll influence them every chance I get. But I won't anymore step in between them and their spouses anymore than I would allow my parents to have stepped in between me and mine. They are NOT children. I raised them to be adults.

[mondo joe]

140. Right - just like abusive parents who keep trying to get their kids back

and when they do they finally beat them to death.

[ElectroPrincess]

95. Other people testified that Terri STATED that she did not want

to live like this. It was not JUST her husband's testimony that convinced the courts.

[Carolab]

129. Bulimic, NOT anorexic.

Anorexics starve. Bulimics vomit.

[in_cog_ni_to]

99. He doesn't have to be a complete bastard about it?

Oh, you must mean he shouldn't treat THEM anything like they have treated HIM throughout this entire saga? They treared him with nothing but respect, right? They were never BASTARDS about anything, right? :eyes:

Terri was his wife. He has the right to bury her wherever he damn well pleases. The Schindlers need to just shut the hell up and move on with their lives.

[okieinpain]

107. yeah, screw her damn parents, scummy bastards what right do

they have to love their child that they raised.

[in_cog_ni_to]

112. My sentiments exactly.

They should have gone about all this in a less greedy, public way. As soon as they learned Michael was not giving them any of the malpractice $700,000, they started this shit. They USE to be close until the $$$$ became part of the picture. They're slimy, greedy and disgusting...IMCPO. If they truly cared about Terri they would have let her go years ago. Money. The root of all evil.

[okieinpain]

131. yeah, they are evil, probably use to moleste her. probably still do

they are evil, evil people I can see little horns on their heads.

man glad I got that out of my system, and I hope you guy's are being as sarcastic as I was. if you're being serious, I'm going to pray for you.

[TankLV]

123. Well, glad to see you're finally getting it!

The parents, weather or not they "love" their child, which is debatable at best, HAVE NO RIGHTS ONCE THAT CHILD IS MARRIED!

None!

Nada!

Zip!

ALL of our laws say so, and even the bible says so!

[mondo joe]

136. Loving their child has nothing to do with trying to CONTROL

every aspect of her life and death.

Parenthood, IMO, is about raising independent adults who will make their own choices.

[okieinpain]

141. man, you guy's can really take things way to far left

[mondo joe]

150. This isn't LEFT. It's a matter of autonomy and the right to

make choices for yourself.

[Bark Bark Bark]

5. Could Be Worse... (POOR TASTE WARNING)

Look, I want to be gracious and sympathetic to the Schindlers; they're largely victims in this mess.

But I can't help thinking back to the original "Texas Chainsaw Massacre," when we see the "family" is keeping their dead grandparents propped up in the attic like Norman Bates' mother, and THEN learn (in the most horrific moment in an incredibly horrific movie) that Grandpa isn't quite dead...and fearing this is what the Schindlers had in mind for Terri.

Of course, if Randall Terry had his way, Terri's body would be nailed up on a cross in Michael's front yard and surrounded by his pet wailers all day and night.

Regardless of my feelings for the Schindlers, I also can't help but think that no matter WHAT Michael did, the Schindlers would be all over TV within the next hour begging someone to intervene.

[Erika]

7. But DeLay chose death and no one objected

Tom chose death for his father. He sure as hell won't allow the same choice for Terri.

[IndianaGreen]

16. DeLay is a bum!

as are all those that voted for the misguided "Terri bill" in Congress. That's not what is at issue here, though.

[Erika]

13. Terri's Clips of a brain dead woman haunts me

How anyone can keep a shell alive is beyond me. It's morbid beyond belief.

[October]

39. I see it every day

My mother had a stroke during elective heart surgery a year ago. She has cognitive losses, but manages quite well despite her paralysis. She is 62. At the time of surgery, she was way overweight and a big time smoker with some clogged carotid arteries to boot. Not a good candidate for surgery at all. But after months in the hospital and whatnot, the doctors "saved" her. Saved her for a life of misery because she's well enough to know she doesn't want to be there. Yet her cognitive losses prevent her from leaving or coming to stay with anyone.

Anyway, every bed in her nursing home is full with stories like Terry Schiavo's. Some of the "parents" have seen their kids live like this for decades. Some wished their children were "let go" at the time of the tragedy...rather than "saved" by medical science to live in this horrific state. They resent that their children were "saved" by surgeons and the like only to live in such torment...and it's torment for everyone. And yet, for every parent who thinks like that, there is a parent who reads the Catholic Standard and Times, giving them hope that science can grow stem cells without "killing babies," and that a miracle will happen...and that science is close to fixing these things. They read what they want to believe, and disavow anything that is contrary.

Their "children" can do nothing -- they're in bed, on feeding tubes, ventilators, wheelchairs, etc. They can't move. These parents bring newborn family members (grandchildren) into the nursing home and take photos of them being "held" by their sickly aunt, etc. It is so sad.

I don't know if the woman has any awareness, but my husband and I always think it might be worse if she does!!!

My mother's roommate just turned 30. She cannot move, speak, eat, etc. Her mother dotes on her like an angel. The poor girl was hit by a drunk driver while a graduate student. She moans as if in pain constantly, cannot sleep with her eyes closed, cannot close her mouth or uncurl her clenched fingers. She looks horrifically uncomfortable...yet her mother goes on and on about how beautiful she is and how a miracle might bring her back. She looks nothing like her former self, of course. And it's been 8 years. It breaks my heart...there are stories like this in every room.

[Daphne08]

42. Stories like these just terrify me! I don't understand how anyone

could believe a person would wish to remain alive this way (especially a young person).

One of my grandmothers was in this situation and it was a blessed relief to all the family when she passed away peacefully after all those years.

She would never, never have wanted to live that way and I knew it, but I could not overrule my relatives. They finally came to the realization (too late) that electing to allow her to remain alive in that condition was a mistake. The only people who profited? -- The nursing home owners.

(My other grandmother told everyone in no uncertain terms that she wanted no heroic efforts and no artificial life support.)

[warrens]

8. why not just shove a pound of lamb down her throat?

She can't eat, she can't drink, she is a vegetable.

Assholes.

[truthpusher]

17. .

[norml]

18. My thread on this got combined too.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=1346416&mesg_id=1346416

[Selteri]

27. Okay, I'm going to clarify this for them.

The catholic church has nothing against cremation as long as it's done in the proper fashion.

I suspect that Michael Shiavo just wants to get as far away from this family as he can after everything that's gone on.

[angee_is_mad]

29. was she a practicing Catholic?

before the injury? If so, that cremation could be a touchy issue. I think right now it is about who can out spite the other.

The husband is pissed off with the parents and he isn't going to give one inch and the parents hate his guts and will criticize everything he does.

As my mother said, "Thank God all the money is gone." I wonder whose book will be published first? Michael or the parents? Things that make you say ummmm?

[cap]

33. my parents were catholic and got cremated...

the Schiavos are following a very conservative, traditional form of Catholicism.

Gosh, I really resent the conservative wing of the church.

I just told my husband if any priest like the ones advising the Schiavos was hovering around me at the hospital I would kick him in the nuts. Get them the hell away from me and get the kind, caring, QUIET priests that took care of my mother.

[jmcon007]

31. DeLay and Frist will step in and...

give Terri a Reagan-style funeral, maybe. They seem to want to handle everything else.

[noonwitch]

32. The Schindlers can have a memorial service without the body

There's no law stopping them, and they probably will have one that is internationally televised and shock full of angry religious conservatives saying that God is going to judge america over Terri's death, etc.

The husband will have a small funeral and will quietly inter her ashes in his family's gravesite where the international television media will be trying to film it from whatever barrier the local authorities erect.

[LiberalFighter]

36. That is what was done year before last for my sister.

Her body was still held by the coroner and we were just waiting for our father to be well enough for the service. We had the service without a body or the ashes. Just had a picture. After the body was released she was cremated.

[Seabiscuit]

40. The Schindlers are the embodiment of evil.

[DinahMoeHum]

41. I dunno, methinks the Schindlers probably got a ton of $$$ shoved in their

face by Randall Terry the Fairy and his Religious Right cohorts, and they can't let go. They've been sucking on the RW tit ever since.

:evilfrown:

[chickenscratching]

87. i know

and probably sucking on it with so much denial!
they've probably been led to believe that Terri Schiavo can come out of her current state. I"m sure with so many politicians and whackos backing your feelings, they probably think her cerbral cortex can make it back.

[ElectroPrincess]

102. Terri deserved to get better parents than the *ever* self-absorbed ...

Schindlers. The two of them are so domineering I'd bet money even when Terri was a child, every damn thing, was always about the two of them (the parents).

It would have been a living hell growing up in such a "control freakish" family. This woman never was able to break free from their control ... but soon, they will not be able to "control" her any longer.

I bet the both "go crazy" like that foaming at the mouth nut case Mark Klaus. Probably hit the lecture circuit with the other Fundy nut cases. Sick people.

For Heaven's Sake, Keep the Fundy's out of my Government!

[proud2BlibKansan]

43. Roman Catholics don't believe in cremation

I have heard the church no longer forbids it but traditional Catholics are NOT cremated.

Not trying to defend her parents, but just explaining their objections.

[Tippy]

46. Cremation

I dodn't believe you can find anything in the Bible where it says Cremation is against God Law...It was a ruling made by the Church and has since been revisited and changed...And I believe the cost of funerals play a big roll in the decision.

[proud2BlibKansan]

47. I come from a large very traditional Catholic family

and no one has ever been cremated in my family. Regardless of the church's current policy, a lot of Cathilics still don't want to be cremated.

[Tippy]

52. I too, I come from a large very traditional Catholic family

Graduated from a Catholic High shool ...the whole nine yards, My Parish Priest rushed to our home when he learned my son had died and it was he who told me the Church no longer bands Cremation. I recently chose to have my son cremated we took his ashes to church the same way we wold have taken an coffin.

[proud2BlibKansan]

58. I know the church no longer says no to cremation

but a lot of Catholics still oppose it. That was my point.

Sorry about your son.

[Bridget Burke]

59. Cremation was illegal for Catholics for a long time.

Because most Pagans preferred cremation.

In the 1960's, cremation was allowed for some cases. Later rulings allowed it for more cases, but only the intact body could be taken to church for a mass. Most recently, ashes were allowed.

The Church does change--very slowly at times. That's how it has managed to last for centuries. And how it could continue to last....

[ElectroPrincess]

75. The Church is rethinking it's stance on Cremation ...

You were, with respect, wrong about NO orders of Nuns wearing habits (they certainly do in a number of Franciscan orders especially).

How 'bout you consider coming back to The Church? Much of what you have stereotyped is no longer *law*.

Yes, in some areas, us liberal Catholics have had an influence over the leadership.

[HockeyMom]

76. Very Practical Reason

In very populated areas, they are running out of grave space.

[yellowcanine]

84. They already allow it, just not scattering or dividing of the ashes, BUT

then the evidence is pretty thin that she was a practicing Catholic, anyway, no?

In 1963, the Catholic Church lifted its prohibition forbidding Catholics to choose cremation. Canon 1176 of the 1983 Code of Canon Law states, "The Church earnestly recommends the pious custom of burying the bodies of the dead be observed, it does not however, forbid cremation unless it has been chosen for reasons which are contrary to Christian teaching."


"The cremated remains of the body should be buried or entombed. The scattering of the cremated remains of the body, or the keeping of them at home, or the dividing of them among various family members is not the reverent disposition the church requires."

http://www.cathcemchgo.org/cremation.htm

[mondo joe]

130. Then they can object to it for themselves.

Her cremation is not up to them.

[mondo joe]

135. What is the catholic stance on fertility treatment?

[anarchy1999]

57. Is this show ever going to be over anytime soon? Jeez almighty!

Someone, can't someone please make this stop?!

[knitter4democracy]

64. Let me get this straight--

He wants to have her buried so that he can be buried next to her. Also, it's where they grew up, not where they ended up? How is that a bad decision? They can create a shrine (as the "Franciscan" brother said--sorry, but that guy rubs me the wrong way) in their home from items that belonged to her and pictures, as people have for ages, and once a year or so, they can make a trip up to her grave. How is that bad or any different than what would've happened if she'd died right away 15 years ago?

I should take this as a warning. I know my in-laws would want my husband buried down by them, but he and I agree that we should be buried wherever we are living at the time, and whoever dies second gets to be buried next to the first one. So, if I die tonight, I get buried here, and when David dies, he gets buried next to me. We should probably get this in our wills and stuff, then, eh?

[LiberalFighter]

71. If Schindlers were living a 1000 miles away would they demand

that Terri be buried near them? I don't think so. They would end up having to (if they really needed to) make the trip to the cemetery as often as they felt the need.


For me, I currently live in Indiana but I will not be buried here even if I die here. My ashes will be spread on Wisconsin soil where there is real dirt and where my heart and spirit is connected.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

89. No

A will is not the place to list how you choose to be disposed of. The will's not read until well after the death.

Make your wishes known to your next-of-kin, and then consider this: you'll never know what really happens, so who cares?

[knitter4democracy]

113. I just don't want a fight at that time.

If we have it in writing beforehand, that might help make it less of a fight.

I know that my mom's dad put it in with his will and other papers--had it all worked out and paid for ahead of time. That made everything that much easier because it was a shock when he died. He'd been keeping his heart deteriorating a secret from all of us, so we had no idea it was as bad as it was. It was a comfort to know what he wanted so easily.

[Politicub]

65. No wonder the poor woman suffered from bulimia

Her parents are absolute control freaks

[yellowcanine]

82. Cremate her and give half the ashes to the parents and half to Michael.

Let them each do what they want with them. Case closed.

[1gobluedem]

85. I'm betting that * will go to the funeral

After not attending any military funerals. Not as politically advantageous.

And you know Jebby will be there...

[B Calm]

90. Hell Bush didn't fly to Red Lake, Minnesota, why would he go

to Florida?

[OldLeftieLawyer]

91. Get real

You can't believe Mr. Schiavo will allow anyone associated, even remotely, with those Parents From Hell at the funeral.

Will the parents go to the funeral?

[OETKB]

111. Too Late

I was trying to fashion a post to discuss what reconciliation might be possible between family members in such charged situations. However this story has become more miserable by the minute. It is going to be a long time before all the participants in this ghastly display are going to be able to put their lives back together again.

At every juncture where some reasonable approach could have been sought the twilight zone seemed to take over. It may be time to let this situation drift off into the sunset and to start looking over our collective shoulders to see what has been cooked up while we have been so engrossed with Terri Schiavo.

I think it is time for the progressive movement to form their own agenda and to stop reacting to what the other side keeps serving up. They are producing endless events to produce pseudo-cogitation while the world around us, our rights, our wealth, our environment, and our health erodes. Let's get back on track.

[Montanan]

139. Schaivo madness not all bad.

Whenever the spotlight is turned on Christian nuts, a segment of the population is turned off by them. This is a good thing.

I think BushCo wishes the Schaivo affair had never happened.