GM Says It May Kill Off One of Its Brands (Buick or Pontiac)

[RamboLiberal]

http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/ns/news/story.jsp?id=2005032315440002961051&dt=20050323154400&w=RTR&coview=

General Motors Corp., which issued a shock profit warning last week and has been losing market share, may phase out one of its weaker car brands if sales fail to meet projections, company Vice Chairman Bob Lutz said on Wednesday.

GM's Buick and Pontiac are both "damaged brands" due to lack of investment over the years, and GM is working to correct that with an array of new vehicles coming to market, Lutz told a Morgan Stanley automotive conference in New York.

But if some of its brands fail to meet sales projections, "then we would have to take a look at a phase-out. I hope we don't have to do that. What we've got to do is keep the brands we've got."

Financial analysts have said for years that the world's largest automaker has too many brands to support, even with the gradual phase-out of the Oldsmobile brand a few years ago, particularly with its weaker U.S. sales.

Sales for both Pontiac and Buick have lagged in recent years. But GM is in the midst of a $3 billion investment in new vehicles for Buick, and Pontiac showrooms and they will have four new vehicles this year, including the Solstice roadster, Torrent SUV and the G6 mid-size coupe.

[rkc3]

1. I think half the cars in Pittsburgh are Pontiacs.

Also, don't they drive Pontiacs in NASCAR (I won't follow that parade so I'm at a loss)? Wouldn't that hurt GM even more?

[LiberalVoice]

2. And the other half are busted ass buicks

:P Unless you're in squirrel hill...They only allow VW's Honda's and Volvo's

[demosincebirth]

8. Well, well, thats a nice way to

support our unionized industries, they are the ones that keep low wages from going lower and average wages going up.

I had a 1995 Buick that I sold with 234,000 miles on it. Still ran great, but the wife wouldn't ride in it anymore

BUY UNION BUY AMERICAN

[saigon68]

17. My 87 Buick had 260,000 miles when I got rid of it last year.

My daughter still has it. It was no beauty but reliable.

[leftchick]

39. lol!

they were not pretty back then but they worked okay! :)

[leQ]

49. we had a 57 buick super, the one with the big fins... lasted 3 demolition

derbies. the lady jus would not die.

i'd hate to see either go actually. they're both great brands. but if i had to choose, i'd probably say keep the pontiac.

(on ed: typo)

[Book Lover]

3. If I were Bob Lutz,

I'd kill the Buick name and move that demographic to Saturn products.

[SharonAnn]

54. I drive Buicks but I won't drive todays Saturns

They don't "fit" me. There's not enough room in the driver's seat, the roof is too low, and I don't like the handling.

I'm glad many people like the Saturn and I heartily approve of what they've done and are doing. Unfortunately, their cars just don't "fit" me.

[obxhead]

4. buy a Honda

you get twice the car with 1/10th of the maintenance

[rkc3]

5. What's the conversation rate for Honda miles?

60,000 Pontiac miles equals 300,000 Honda miles - either way, both cars are close to finished.

[bettyellen]

6. in france they pronunce it "Booo-week"

so fucking cute.

[MrTriumph]

7. GM is clueless

What a shame. One time great brands left to wither while GM invests heavily in Hummer and a $2 Billion bust because of a poor agreement made with FIAT. Even the Saturn brand, once promising, is now largely bland, cookie cutter vehicles. Is there a stockholder revolt coming?

GM's leadership is about as gutless as the Democratic senate delegation on the bankruptcy vote. A total capitulation to big money by Biden & company.

[xultar]

9. Buick is a gonner n/t

[LSdemocrat]

10. I'd bet on Buick being gone

Can anyone name a classic Buick from the past 50 years?

[DS1]

11. Same here. They even have something called a Skylark

:puke:

[alcibiades_mystery]

15. 1973 Buick LeSabre

Reminscent of the M-1 Abrams tank, in military green with a light green soft top.

Atrociously delicious.

[BrotherBuzz]

21. The Buick Classic used to be called the Crosby Clambake

Hey, what is Tiger Woods gonna drive if they kill the Buick?

[Richard Steele]

22. Yes, I can name one: 1958 Buick Special! A mere 47 years ago!

Nothing after that really sparks my interest.

I'm also agreeing that Buick is probably toast.


http://www.buickbombsight.org/1958.html

[420inTN]

42. That looks a lot like...

... my dad's 1960 Chrysler Dodge Seneca Dart. Inline-6 cyl., three on the tree (the alternate version had the push button transmission).

[FreeStateDemocrat]

24. The 1963 to 1965 Rivera – classic luxury sports cars.

[trogdor]

26. '72 Riviera

That tapered fastback was just too cool.

[trogdor]

27. early '80's Regals were quite popular, IIRC.

Especially amongst what would now be the hip-hop crowd.

[CO Liberal]

31. Yes - The 1963 Buick Riviera

[flvegan]

38. The Grand National/GNX, 1984-1987 and the GTO of the 60's

Okay, the 84-85 models were pretty lackluster performers. The 86 got all the upgrades, and the 87 nailed it (I had one, it rocked).

[SharonAnn]

55. The Buick Regal Grand Sport, the Buick Riviera

Both outstanding cars.

[Deja Q]

12. Try the SUV lines instead, guh.

[jmowreader]

13. Here's what I'd do if I was the president of GM

GM used to be designed to "move its customers upward." Your first car out of high school was supposed to be a Chevrolet. If you were a blue-collar worker, you were meant to aspire to owning a Buick. If you were a white-collar worker, you bought a Pontiac when you graduated from college, traded up to an Oldsmobile then to a Cadillac. Truck users bought GMCs, and no one bought a truck as their family car.

Also, the cars were different--Chevvies were small and affordable, Oldsmobiles were huge and luxurious.

In 2005, this is not the case. Stick a piece of tape over the nameplate on a GM product and you can't tell what it is.

I would fix this problem by taking drastic measures.

Measure number one: Discontinue the Pontiac and Buick nameplates.

Measure number two: Discontinue all Chevrolet medium-duty trucks and all GMC light-duty trucks.

Measure number three: Introduce the Hummer H4. This is a Honda CR-V-sized exact replica of the H1 (the H2 is a Suburban with a body reminiscent of the H1; the H4 will look like someone left an H1 in the dryer too long) with a four-cylinder biodiesel-ready turbodiesel engine and a waste vegetable oil conversion kit available as a factory option, and it gets 22mpg in town. It's made by patriotic UAW members. It meets the safety requirements for passenger cars, not for trucks. It also has flag brackets molded into the B and C pillars. We'd sell a lot of these.

Measure number four: Discontinue the Saturn line.

Measure number five: Hold a huge ceremony in Spring Hill, Tennessee, on a nice spring day. Line up all of the Saturn workers and "fire" them en masse. Use a crane to remove the Saturn sign from the building. We'll put the Saturn sign in a hole in the ground and push dirt over it with a bulldozer. Then serve a farewell luncheon from the Saturn management at noon. At 1pm, the same crane puts a different sign on the building...one for a brand that makes only hybrid cars. (For planning purposes, we'll call it Tesla.) When the Tesla sign is on the building, the "fired" Saturn workers will be "rehired" as Tesla workers. And to close out the day, serve a welcome dinner. Now, Tesla's going to be a neat company. It will make maybe four cars: a sporty coupe that's like an Acura RSX, a family car that's like a Toyota Solara, a pickup like a Chevrolet Colorado, and an SUV like a Toyota RAV4. You'll be able to choose three powertrains for the same price--a gasoline/electric hybrid, a propane/electric hybrid and a diesel/electric hybrid. All cars will be made exactly the same way; there won't be any options. All four cars will rely on the same peppy engines, so here's the slick part: powerpack technology. You'll jack up the car just a bit and put two jackstands under it, remove the grille, remove four mounting bolts, two drive-axle pins, the electrical connector, fuel connector and exhaust connector, and wheel the powerpack right out of the car. Installation is the reverse of removal. Tesla clubs will have powerpack-pull contests to see who can do it fastest. This is not a new technology. They've been doing this in Army tanks for decades. Army tanks are designed so that the only tools you need to get the engine out are a standard mechanic's toolbox and a crane. They do it this way on a tank because it's the only way to change the oil. They'll do it this way on a Tesla so the dealer won't have to choose which cars he wants to stock--he'll have a handful of diesel powerpacks and a handful of propane powerpacks (and the fuel plumbing for all three fuels will be installed in every Tesla) on hand and swap them out when a customer wants a diesel or a propane engine. The propane/electric pack will be very popular with fleet managers. Every Tesla technician will start working on your car by pulling the powerpack because it will be faster to do it than to attempt to get your huge American hand through a gap that a Japanese engineer didn't have any problem getting his Japanese hand through. This leads to a lot of other new thinking, like Major Repairs In Under An Hour (your Tesla dealer will have refurbished powerpacks in stock; if your transmission goes out, for $700 they put a new powerpack in your car and send the old one back to Tennessee to be gone through by a factory mechanic).

So what's left?

Chevrolet is Everyman's car company. They have six cars. One will be about the size of a Civic. They will also have the Monte Carlo, the Corvette, a minivan that meets passenger car standards, a re-introduced Camaro and a "family car" that competes with the Ford Five Hundred and the Honda Accord.

Chevy Truck is the light truck division of GM. Their trucks will be a midsize SUV (halfway between the TrailBlazer and the Tahoe) that meets passenger-car regs, a midsize pickup, a full-size pickup and the Suburban.

GMC sells medium-duty trucks.

Hummer sells Hummers. They'll have the H1 and H2 as special order items and the H4 in stock. There will not be any Hummer-only dealers; most of them will be Chevy Truck dealers that also have Hummer franchises.

Cadillac will remain as it is.

Tesla is their hybrid company.

Saab will continue to sell Swedish cars.

GM's overseas divisions will be similarly scrutinized but ask me about that later, because I spent all last night putting wainscoting behind my radial arm saw and I'm a bit tired right now.

[Nostradammit]

14. "It also has flag brackets molded into the B and C pillars."

LOL!!! Now you're talkin'!

Tesla hybrids - indeed.

[Voltaire99]

20. LOL! Somehow, I can't care one jot about the future of a company...

...that makes Hummers.

With or without flag brackets molded into the B and C pillars for gas-guzzlin' morons. ;-)

[MrTriumph]

18. Saturn workers don't make Saturns

Hey, it was great marketing idea: All these proud workers in TN carefully building each Saturns. But GM broke with that and cheapened the brand. Engineering became stale and then not all cars badged as Saturns are made in TN anymore!

GM has pursued the British Leyland model for too long. Badge engineered cars that are not updated often enough. The MGB was a fine sportscar in '64. But is was built until 1980. How long was the Cavalier (and its twins) or for that matter almost any of the models GM has built around?

FWIW, I think GM needs many divisions. Maybe more than now. But they need to be different from each other and they need to provide modern, well built & engineered cars.

Oh, and this from someone who has owned 3 new GM vehicles (2 were awful) and will never own a new GM car or truck again. Is it any wonder GM has lost half it's market share.

[dbt]

23. DAYUM, jmowreader! If the prez of GM ever sees your post,

you are DEAD MEAT. Way too much common sense in what you say; you will have to be eliminated (for the good of Corporate Murka) lest your ideas fall into the Wrong Hands!

BRILLIANT. Dead, cold, stinking BRILLIANT.

:evilgrin:

[trogdor]

28. Can you imagine the really cool logo for Tesla Division?

Bzzzzzzzt!

[high density]

16. Buick could be a good brand...

...but unfortunately they use their exterior designs to death and seem to have no new ideas (e.g. the Lacrosse.) Pontiac's design crew doesn't really impress me either.

[slackmaster]

19. Survivor: General Motors

The real distinctions between Chevrolet, Pontiac, Buick, and the defunct Oldsmobile disappeared by 1960. Except for the expensive exotic models, most of their currently produced vehicles are the same car with different window dressing. Maintaining them as separate brands was a waste.

[BiggJawn]

25. So they close down a sheet-metal and emblem line.-

What's the difference between a LOT of GM models? The sheet metal in the "doghouse" and the name badges. That's all.

And I think jmowreader needs to find backing for his "Tesla" idea.

[jmowreader]

50. But who do you go to in order to get backing?

There really isn't anything NEW in the Tesla idea. It's nothing but a synthesis of old ideas that work.

I have said here before that, given $10 million, I can design a good hybrid car that uses electric motors at the wheels, an engine-driven generator, regenerative braking and a nice big battery pack. Tesla isn't that car. Tesla is a more-conventional hybrid using Toyota's hybrid system--which they will license because they already are, to Ford for the Escape Hybrid. Tesla will license Toyota's system because the point here isn't to reinvent the wheel. It is to get something that works, and Toyota's system does exactly that. Also note: it's one powerpack for the whole line. Commonality of parts will be key to the success of Tesla--why stock four different dashboards?

And here's the real beauty of my whole plan: no job loss. Let's throw out a number that I reached through rectal prediction: GM sells 30 million roadgoing vehicles per year. (They also make locomotives.) If it takes 40 factories to make 30 million cars with seven nameplates: Chevrolet, Pontiac, Buick, Cadillac, Saturn, Hummer and GMC--it probably takes 40 factories to make 30 million cars with six nameplates: Chevrolet, Chevy Truck, Cadillac, Tesla, GMC and Hummer. (Why split out the truck line? In doing so, we'll be able to sell Chevy Truck, GMC (which no longer sells pickups) and Hummer at one dealership, which we'll call Truck Stop. Also, it helps preserve head-office headcount. Remember, liberals aren't allowed to advocate for job loss. By losing Pontiac and Buick, you'll have two staffs of displaced executives. We have to do SOMETHING with them--if we're not careful, they'll go to work for the GOP. This could be good or bad. Anyway, Chevy Truck will be its own marque. We can probably diffuse, or give early retirement to, the staffs of Pontiac and Buick.) And yes, I'm sorry, I am keeping the Hummer marque for three reasons even though as a liberal envirowhacko I'm supposed to hate Hummer and everything it stands for. First, the military buys Hummers and so long as they do, we're kinda stuck with the line. (However, I am going to take the fucked-up Oldsmobile 6.2-liter car diesel that's in the H1 and the M1038, drop it in the deepest hole it's possible to dig, and replace it with the Duramax, which is a great engine.) Second, people buy these abominations, although making the H1 and H2 special-order items should cut down on people's desire to own one. And third, the H4--a mini H1 with a little diesel in it--should really do well because it will be reasonably priced, tough, good on fuel and fun to drive; something to compete with the Jeep Wrangler. Oh, and it will have flag holders for all the freepers, don't forget that part. And all of us hippies-at-heart will want one because of the optional waste vegetable oil kit.

[BiggJawn]

57. Man, if I knew, I'd point you towards him...

What you've written today makes a hell of a lot more sense that GM's "focus group" of celebrities who decided the wreath on the escalade needed to be bigger.

gotta keep those execs employed, else they'll go to work for PNAC or some other RW Stink Tank.

[ProfessorGAC]

29. Dump Buick

The dumbasses that used to run GM's best division have abandoned the marketing aspect of selling cars.

The two newest models have been an unattractive, "me too" SUV, and now a new "sport coupe" that only comes in 4 doors.

Where are the two doors like my Regal GS? Where's the damned convertible? They allowed themselves to become an "old person's" car. Then they sign a 28 year old celebrity as their primary spokesman and still offer nothing for those who want something sportier? Rampant stupidity.

They have self-destructed as a division of GM. GM should just finish the job.
The Professor

[trogdor]

33. Well, they had to take up slack from Oldsmobile.

They do best when they think of themselves as Caddy Jr. I don't know what they're doing now.

[midnight armadillo]

30. GM once totally dominated

Unfortunately for GM workers, GM management has been acting like it had majority market share for decades, even as they continuously slipped in market share and quality. Their model of moving customers up in brands worked as long as they owned the market - this model has been failing for DECADES.

The place is ruled by bean counters, who are afraid of innovation, risk, and new technologies. There are exceptions, note the high tech in the latest Corvette, but in general they've been chasing other car companies for ages. I have no doubt that GM engineers have come up with a variety of terrific technologies that have been shelved due to being deemed 'too risky' or 'too different'. Their car designs are derivative and blah.

GM has also apparently decided that the future will always be like the present, that the future car market will be large SUVs, V8 engines, and big trucks. Granted, these have been made them money recently, but even a casual observer of trends can note ever-increasing gas prices, the fact that buyers seem happy with SUV-ish cars (i.e. 'crossovers') with better mileage & comfort than old Tahoes, and are completely missing the hybrid bandwagon.

Prediction: GM will dump a brand, which will make no difference for their fortunes. They will get beaten up left and right by the Japanese hybrids, which are growing rapidly in popularity and models. In 2007 the Euro makers will bring in a lot of their advanced diesels with the availability of low-sulfur diesel in the US. These cars will be popular due to high mileage, and GM will have no competitor. They will spend the next 5 years desperately playing catchup, make a little profit, and in 2015 we'll see the same headlines as they drop below 10% market share.

Screw GM, but they better keep making Saabs, or sell Saab to Renault like the rumors claimed might happen.

[SharonAnn]

56. I live in a retirement community with tons of retired GM managers

After getting to know them, I find it amazing that GM is still in business.

[Paulie]

32. One thing to keep in mind about killing a brand

It forces people to switch brands! :)

I owned 4 Oldsmobiles in my life. Now I own a Toyota.

[borlis]

34. GM needs to bring back some redesigned fun cars.

Like the Trans Am, Z28, etc. Ford redesigned the mustang and it looks great.

[catnhatnh]

35. I can't live ....

....in a world without cruser ventiports (thats what buick called the 3 vents found on the hood or earlier the front fenders of their cars)...

[happyslug]

36. GM should have been broken up in the 1960s under Anti-trust laws

Both the US and GM would be better today had GM been broken up on Anti-Trust grounds in the 1960s.

With the disappearance of Packard, Studebaker, Hudson, Nash, Kaiser (Hudson and Nash merging become AMC in the mid-1950s and buying Kaiser-Jeep in 1970) by the early 1970s the US had four makers of cars , GM, Ford, Chrysler and AMC. AMC was kept alive by GM so the Feds would not break up GM (GM went so far as to sell engines and other parts to AMC at prices CHEAPER than it sold to its own divisions). There is some indication (But I know of no evidence) that GM even arranged for AMC to take over Kaiser-Jeep so that AMC could survive.

Thus GM's big concern in the 1970s was avoiding a Anti-trust action that would have broke up its almost 60% dominance of Automobile manufacturing in the US. It had driven out of Business all but Ford (Which could rely on its larger foreign manufacturing of Cars), Chrysler (Where everyone who could not fit into GM's mode ended up) and AMC. During that time period Ford could produce a new niche vehicle (The Mustang) but ended up losing out to GM answer to it (The Pontiac Fire-bird and Chevrolet Camaros). Chrysler respond with its hot rod variations of its standard cars. AMC had its Javelin.

With the Gas shortage of the 1960s all of the above suffered, but Ford could adjust the quickest by brining in is Fiesta and other cars already being built overseas, Chrysler almost went Bankrupt over the problem and AMC survived on the sales of its Jeep Products. Even in this environment GM dominated do to its size, slowing down the down sizing of American Cars for almost a decade (For example the 1964 GM Compact car i.e. Chevrolet Nova, lasted till the early 1980s, and the 1973 GM Pickup Style lasted till 1990). Instead of quickly changing its models to reflect the high price of Gasoline, GM slowed down the switch to maximize its profits (And permitted the Japanese to move into the high mileage car market and dominate it to this day).

Had GM been broken up like standard Oil had been in 1912, it would have emerged as 3-4 companies competing with each other. With such Competition the Japanese auto Invasion of the 1970s would have been stopped in its tracks, but GM stayed the large Giant it was and demanded it maximized its profits.

Even at the time (the 1970s) it was noted that the fact that Japan had 7-8 Car companies made the Japanese more aggressive in meeting consumer's wants and needs, each Japanese Company was to small NOT to change as its competitors did. As the Price of Gasoline went up and down the Japanese Companies respond with new models, GM just could not move that fast.

My point in this is to say GM needed to be broken up in 1970 and needs to be broken up today. You can NOT have a healthy auto industry dominated by just three makers of cars in your country.



History of Studebaker:
http://studebaker100.com/stu/new_menu.html

History of AMC
http://allpar.com/amc/
http://www.amxfiles.com/amc/

History of Hudson:
http://home.earthlink.net/~hetclub/history/history.htm

History of Nash:

History of the Metropolitan:
http://pw1.netcom.com/~bcotariu/metro/history.html

[natrat]

37. whyt dont they just kill the whole pos company

[doc03]

41. Good thinking for a Democrat, eliminate a few more

thousand Democrat voters with a good paying job and benefits. If the DLC didn't fall for this free trade anti-union race to the bottom BS we would have a President Kerry today.

[natrat]

45. a democrat? nihilist

what has gm done but build gas guzzling hulks

[LeftyMom]

46. My GM car (a saturn) gets 30 mpg and hauls a family and all or crap around

reliably. Not bad for a car that was 7 yrs old and had 100k when I bought it.

If GM improved the finish issues for Saturn interiors (the seats aren't that cozy, at least mine aren't) they'd sell a heck of a lot more of them. They're good cars.

[natrat]

52. yes you are pbably right- not bad cars

i learned to drive in a chevy vega- not alot of sympathy here these days for large corporations

[happyslug]

43. Breaking it up into 3-4 companies would be better

In the 1970s this split would have been easy, give the compact cars to Chevrolet and the Full Size cars to Cadillac, permit some exchange of models for a 5 year transition period and than leave them compete with each other.

Today, given what GM has done since the 1960s to make its car lines almost interchangeable, what you need to do is divide GM not only along product name but also its integration.

For example I would be tempted to split up the Marketing divisions (Chevrolet, Pontiac, Buick, Saturn and Cadillac) from the manufacturing of engines. In fact leave the subsequent independent Companies not produce ANY of their own engines and or transmissions, leave them buy the engines and transmissions from ANYONE, even Ford, Chrysler, VW, Toyota etc. Since the 1970s most GM cars have used GM engines that may be called a Chevrolet, Buick, or Cadillac engine, but could be an engine from any of GM plant. Furthermore Engines, Transmission are rarely made in the same factory as the final assembly of the Car, thus it is NOT important if the engine and transmission is made inside or outside a particular company.

Thus I would leave Chevrolet retain its final Assembly plants, I would NOT leave it have its engine or transmission plants. Thus My plan for GM:

1. GM Engine and Transmission Company, producing large (Greater than 4.0 liter engines).

2. "Small" Engine and Transmission Company, producing four and six cylinder engines and transmission (Plants producing engines smaller than 4.0 liter). There will have to be some overlap but that can b done by determining if a particular factory is making more engines larger or smaller than 4.0, which it is making more of gets that factory.

Dividing GM Engines and Transmissions into two division right at general division between V-6 and V-8 gives you two makers of engines, one for the bigger cars and trucks the other for smaller engines.

3. Give all final assembly plants to Chevrolet IF they are producing compact or smaller cars. Give all such plants to Cadillac for Large Size and larger cars. Give all such plants making mid-Size bodies to a third company, called "Pontiac/Buick/Opal (Give it Opal and Saab).

Set up GM Truck and Coach Division as a separate company with separate manufacturing plants for light trucks.

Separate the Medium and Heavy duty trucks into its own division as would be the manufacturing of Railroad diesel locomotives.

You thus have two engine manufacturing companies fighting each other (and Ford, Chrysler, VW, Toyota and others) for the business of four final assembling companies (Chevrolet, "Opal", Cadillac and GM Light Trucks).

[Megahurtz]

40. I bet they will can Buicks.

Now the old one's will be collecters items.

[adarling]

44. get rid of Pontiac

i remember when i was kid and we had a grand am, piece of shit it was. After buying it, 6 months later we needed a new engine and it was awful, they god dad totaled it...no injuries though ;)

[DisgustedTX]

47. Too much love for (P)Lutz

GM spends more time & press hyping Lutz than promoting/selling their vehicles.

Can the moron - other than Iacocca, the most overrated auto-industry exec in history. At least Iacocca helped introduce the Mustang. :) Unfortunately, that was followed at Chrysler/Dodge by the K-Car.

[DemoTex]

48. Buick is the official car of upstate SC elders. Especially silver Buicks.

My 82 y/o M-I-L has one. Most of her friends have Buicks. I think they come from the factory with the little black square with a white "W" in the back window. Jebus! I thought Highland Park was ultra-right! Upstate SC is much, much worse.


Shit-ass

[DubyaSux]

51. I'm McLovin' It...

Back when I was younger, GM fucked me over with a bona fide lemon. They literally blamed every problem I had with a brand new car on me with not one item covered under the extended warranty I paid for.

Now I'm older and have spending power. I've purchased about a dozen new vehicles since then. They could have GIVEN me a new car and still made a profit off me over the years. Instead, they sold me crap and treated me worse.

I wouldn't take a brand new GM vehicle if they gave it to me as a tax free gift. Fuck 'em. I won't shed any tears if they go under.

I don't need them.

[natrat]

53. i feel that way about 95% of american corporations

greedy scumbag execs making 4000% of the avg worker