LAT: Long-Term Jobless Find a Degree Just Isn't Working

[DeepModem Mom]

Long-Term Jobless Find a Degree Just Isn't Working
By Nicholas Riccardi, Times Staff Writer


....Long-term unemployment, defined as joblessness for six months or more, is at record rates. But there's an additional twist: An unusually large share of those chronically out of work are...college graduates.

The increasing inability of educated workers to quickly return to the workforce reflects dramatic shifts in the economy, experts say. Even as overall hiring is picking up and economic growth remains strong, industries are transforming at a rapid pace as they adjust to intense competition, technological change and other pressures.

That means skilled jobs can quickly become obsolete, while others are outsourced. Educated workers are increasingly subject to the job insecurities and disruptions usually plaguing blue-collar laborers, but various factors make it even harder for some educated workers to get back into the workforce quickly. Though a college education is still one of a worker's best assets, it's no guarantee that a worker's skills will match demands of a shifting job market....

***

The number of long-term unemployed who are college graduates has nearly tripled since the bursting of the tech bubble in 2000, statistics show. Nearly 1 in 5 of the long-term jobless are college graduates. If a degree holder loses a job, that worker is now more likely than a high school dropout to be chronically unemployed....


http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-jobless11mar11,0,1675228.story?coll=la-home-headlines

[bullimiami]

1. greed is good, fuck the masses.

[okieinpain]

15. yes greed good, my precious, my precious. mine, mine, mine....

[namvet73]

136. Yes, just ask John Stossel -eom-

[Sequoia]

2. Well, I don't have a degree

Guess I'm qualified!

[THUNDER HANDS]

3. college is a scam anyway

if everyone has a college degree, what's the point - its like an extention of high school.

On top of that, most of the time kids are just buying degrees anyway. You only 'need' 25-50% of the classes that you actually take. The other 50-75% are just pointless crap that lines the coffers of the colleges and universities.

[aden_nak]

6. I benefited directly from about 20% of my classes.

I either learned nothing useful in or just plain can't remember the rest of them. And I've only been out of college for 3-4 years now. And to be honest, if you restrict my "knowledge" to what I apply to my job, I needed 0% of my classes.

[davekriss]

83. I apply 100% of my classes

I studied english lit and it taught me to think and communicate. I use these skills daily on my job. I value the entirety of my education. There was nothing superfluous or exploitative about it.

(Before I get flamed: I'm not saying I was a good student, nor that it has equipped me well compared to anyone else, just that I am keenly aware of the transformational "improvements" I received via my liberal arts education.)

Since 2002 I've had two bouts of unemployment totaling 14 months. Despite this dislocation between my skills and what corpo-fascist America is willing to pay for, I value my education greatly. Not for what I can earn from it, but for what I've become through it. I've become independent, capable, caring, confident, and aware.

And, yes, I recognize that these strengths can be obtained outside of a university setting. But for me, my path included a quality education. I sometimes wonder, though, what one receives from an "education" today when I consider our current state of affairs...?

[shrike]

99. The value of education

My nephew, a gifted mechanical engineer, says sociology was one of the best classes he ever took. The things he learned about how people behave in groups has helped him navigate corporate life.
Moreover, his employer, Hewlett Packard, was pleased that he came to them with such a well-rounded background.

I remember meeting a very nice gentleman, a salesman on a swing through New England. (He was based out of NC.) He remarked that the classes he thought were a waste of time -- English, psychology, etc. -- taught him skills that he used in every day life.

[justjones]

106. Ditto. Fellow English Literature major here.....

and I completely agree with your post. I am unemployed at the moment, but learned a while ago that my degree was worth much more to me personally than it does to the business world. I guess that's the blessing/curse of having a liberal arts education.

Just because my education isn't getting me a job, per se, doesn't mean that it is worthless. I too recognize that the "strengths" you gain from an eduction can be obtained outside of a university setting as well, but sometimes stories like these can be used to place the university and "outside" of the university setting at odds. The truth is both are valuable and necessary to get where we need to go in this world.

[CBHagman]

27. That's "extension."

That's "it's," not "its."

[Cadence]

37. Oh, please.

I bet you felt smug as you typed that didn't you?

[jdj]

38. don't be so hard on people trying to at least get SOME benefit

from their college education...

[Cadence]

65. LOL.

:thumbsup:

[shrike]

31. Beg to differ

You can't become a doctor w/out a degree. (My brother's one.)
Can't become an RN without one. (My younger sister)
Or an epidemiologist (Older sister.)
Or a mechanical engineer (youngest sister; she has three degrees.)

You could conceivably do what I do (I'm a writer) w/out one, but I'm glad I went to school. Gave me lots of intangibles I'd never have gained otherwise. Ideally, college should be a time to develop your critical thinking skills. To refine your ability to think and write clearly. To be exposed to the classics, world literature, the thoughts of the great ones, etc. You won't get that stuff sitting home and watching "Survivor." And yes, you can study on your own, but how many people do? Not many.

College is not for everyone, however, and I'll never understand why the trades aren't presented as a viable option. Plumbers make terrific money (my son-in-law's one). Machinists, pipe fitters, electricians ... all very viable careers. Although, they, too, require a lengthy period of training, called an apprenticeship. My husband was a sheet metal worker. His company sent him to college, where he studied calculus, physics, electronics, etc., all of which he used on the job.

[Skittles]

40. I've been exposed to the classics, world lit

thoughts of the great ones and I didn't go to college. Read them on my own.

My dad was a meteorologist, my brothers a systems analyst, accountant, fast food manager, international finance salesman; I work in IT and none of us went to college.

Sure some jobs need degrees but many, many of them absolutely do not.

[shrike]

56. That's admirable, but most people are not you

Most people need a university/academic setting of some sort to get their minds opened up.

It's great that your family has done so well without college. But I see PLENTY of high school graduates hanging around doing nothing. They have nowhere to go, nothing to do, no skills. Grit and determination only count so much. As I said in the above post, college is not for everybody, but SOME kind of training or experience must occur.

[Skittles]

64. what does that say about a person

who has to be MADE to read stuff? And not everyone can AFFORD college - I couldn't, so I spent my college years in the military. And believe me, I can write CLEARLY and so can many people without degrees.

[davekriss]

86. A big point

Though I absolutely agree with shrike, the point of affordability is a big issue. When I went to school there was lots of money available. My bill was paid by a mix of academic scholarship, Pell Grants, Guaranteed Student Loans, summer work, and family savings (I made the "unfortunate" choice of going to one of the more expensive colleges in the nation).

Much more money was available then (just take Pell Grants, for example) than seems available now. This is unfair and unjust. Moreover, it is unwise. We as a nation have increasingly failed to invest in our most important asset, ourselves. Just look at the results: The village idiot is pResident, the plutocracy rapes and pillages unabated, the nation is lied into war, and ... well ... it's truly truly sad. :(

[shrike]

97. College was also much cheaper then

In terms of real dollars.

My senior year at Michigan cost me $3,000. No joke -- and that included both tuition and housing. Granted, this was back in the '80s, but I look at what my parents earn them and what my sibs earn now. My sibs earn much more than my folks ever did, but sending their kids to school will be a real burden for them.

[artemisia1]

134. Good post.

A term in the Armed Forces is worth, at the least, a few years of college. I remember my surprise when the Coast Guard told me that passing was 100% (Coxswain quals). How many universities require 100% as a passing score?

Like you, I wasn't made to "read stuff" - I did it on my own.

[frustrated_lefty]

123. Skittles....

I think anyone here would applaud you. To an extent, I agree with you. A person with drive can learn a great deal without college "education." And, just because a person is a college graduate does not mean that same person is educated.

College education suggests that a person has had the chance to be exposed to a balanced body of learning. And, the further up the ladder one goes in education is, I think, a decent indicator of a person's competence and learning. Kids who are trained and can be trusted have keys to safes which contain MDMA, cocaine, numerous barbituates. In my field, I have access to HIV-1, HIV-2, subgenomic Hantavirus. You don't get that with self-education.

Self education is a FANTASTIC thing and should always be encouraged. The fact that one can be self-educated, however, does not mean college is necessarily worthless.

Just my thoughts.

FL

[jdj]

42. the truth is, a liberal arts education has been a lemon in this

country for over 25 years at least since I started school. Nursing is a vocation occupation, and a damn good one if you can get in the programs, most of which have waiting lists.

I think that this industry is not at all being honest with kids about their potential job prospects, and kids are unrealistic anyway, it won't happen to me, I'll be the one that gets a job with an english degree...

I am in paralegal at a community college now, I chose it because even if I never work in that field I will at least learn alot of stuff that benefits me. I am loving being back in school, I get to take accounting, taxation, word processing, etc. I've been under poverty level for most of my life. If I had it to do over, and I tell this to young kids when I get a chance, I would get a vocational or technical degree, get a job with benefits and then go to night school for ten or fifteen years and get a masters or Phd in the field I really wanted to study, paying for the education myself class by class. Of course, no one wants to hear this. If you go to a liberal arts college now as a kid you need to go straight through and get a masters or PhD, because without one you don't have much. And even the computer degrees are pretty useless now.

[shrike]

53. Not a bad idea, actually

I'm a big believer in education and the intangible benefits it brings. Then again, we've all got to eat, too. For a certain kind of person, your plan may be workable.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

80. At least with a liberal arts degree I can spell and produce written....

...work that is gammatically correct. As a former Human Resources Manager, I hated having to deal with the written products of degreed engineers because by and large they couldn't spell and their grammar was horrific. Their writing was so bad, I felt like I was working with kids in elementary school.

By the way, the working world is a moving target...a degree that helps you today may not help you in ten to twenty years. Most recently, I had a technical recruiting business where my clients were constantly looking for engineers with degrees in electrical engineering, telecommunications, software engineering, computer engineering, etc. Well, the bottom dropped out of that world after 911, and those same guys that could easily demand jobs paying six figures are lucky to get a job paying under $50,000 per year. Much the way that you do, those folks looked down their noses at folks with liberal arts degrees...now they know how it feels. I sincerely hope you never get into a situation like that.

[davekriss]

87. me <<< BA in english literature

And it has served me very well. Regardless of employment. See my first post on this thread.

But you are right, our children are being misled about their future job prospects. Pulling on the tin foil, one would think one of the reasons the plutocracy has made it more difficult for the non-affluent to attend school is that they recognize that the jobs won't be there, that if they allow the unwashed masses to gain a liberal arts education, they will be that much more difficult to control, that much more difficult to appropriate sizeable portions of the value created by their labor, that much more difficult to conquer.

/end tin-foil mini-rant

[amazona]

92. most people can't go without sleep for 10-15 years

I understand why no one wants to hear this. Night school for 10 to 15 years? I might as well kill myself now. Do you understand that the majority of the population needs 7-9 hours of sleep a night to maintain their health and their sanity?

A full-time job plus night school is simply not do-able for many people for plain and simple health reasons.

We are not all "I sleep 4 hours a night" Martha Stewart. You are blessed to have such a powerful physiology, but for the love of God and all that is holy, please be aware that no one on this planet chooses to have average or below-level health.

People do die of sleep deprivation. My friend fell asleep driving home from a double shift at work. She wanted to make a nice holiday for her family.

Lack of sleep kills.

We need to get real. Sure, exceptional people will always come out OK.

But what about those of us -- the majority, after all! -- who are not exceptional?

Do we not even deserve to live?

The conservation movement is a breeding ground of communists
and other subversives. We intend to clean them out,
even if it means rounding up every birdwatcher in the country.
--John Mitchell, US Attorney General 1969-72

[Barkley]

112. There are huge "spillover benefits" to college education

Not all of the benefits to college are captured by the student some are leaked out to society as a whole.

I wonder what the incarceration rates are for college graduates versus High School grads?

I wonder if college grads vote more than others?

I agree that college with the aforementioned statements that mission of college is now more career centered than before but that distortion is not the reason for the long-term unemployment.

If anything the new career centered mission of colleges should make students more of a match for private sector employment.

In fact, the article suggests that college education is now contributing to structural/ mismatch unemployment.

I don't know if outsourcing is all to blame. The people in India that have the jobs american techies use to have, no doubt have college degrees.

[BrendaStarr]

132. Because they are filling up those professions with immigrants

First some of the guys start hiring immigrants and then others do it.

Then you find immigrants taking over the ownership or making their own businesses, slicing 25% off the cost and getting most of the business.

I'm not talking legal long term immigrants either.

[cire4]

50. Care to name some of the "pointless crap" classes?

If you are referring to the liberal arts classes (philosophy, english, anthropology etc.), then you are referring to some of the most valuable and educational classes that an undergraduate can take. Sure they offer no monetary reward, but if you go to college purely for the future monetary rewards, then there really is no point to go in the first place.

[XemaSab]

69. valuable and educational compared to what?

most of those classes were fun, but valuable and educational? not so much.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

77. That's your opinion...I gained quite a bit from those types of classes.

[XemaSab]

81. What was your degree in?

And what do you feel you gained from those classes? Personal or professional skills?

I majored in Soil Science, and our school required a lot of general education classes, some of which were very good, and some of which were a total waste of time. Global Awareness and Economics were the two best GE classes I had. Both classes taught me a different way of conceptualizing global and natural resource conflicts.

General Education is a topic I can argue both ways on, very vehemently. I think being well-rounded is important, but it's something you have to take upon yourself to some extent. I know a lot of people who were liberal arts majors and who are still, to this day, completely ignorant fools.

Overall, I tend to lean against required GE because it takes so darn long to get through college.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

129. I have a BA in History and Political Science...

...and completed all of the requirements for a BS in Architecture. I also have a minor in Geology. I spent seven years in college to get the academics that I wanted.

I gained personal and professional skills from all of the above-mentioned curriculums.

Quite frankly, I don't care what anyone else thinks about my education or the fields that I chose to study. Getting an education is not about pleasing anyone else...it's all about pleasing yourself.

[XemaSab]

144. This is true

I have a lot of respect for that course of study. History is an endlessly complicated subject and I loved geology classes.

[cire4]

90. Well, liberal arts majors usually do the best on grad school exams

So there is at least some educational value. These subjects emphasize clear written and spoken expression. They teach one how to think logically and how to analyze arguments, statements, and written material. They teach one how to ask the right questions and make the right points. Intellectual abilities that programs in Philosophy, English, and Histroy stress, such as rational thought, interpretation, and deduction, cannot be measured by some monetary reward IMHO. No matter where you go in life, you'll find these skills valuable.

Speaking as a current fourth-year Philosophy student, I know that my degree won't help me get a job, and I don't expect it to. But I still wouldn't trade my education in for anything in the world.

[L.A.dweller]

118. Good for you

Good luck!

[trogdor]

55. Less than a quarter of Americans have a 4 yr. degree.

'tis a fact. Of course, if your degree is in the liberal arts, you might as well not have bothered. You'll still end up working at Starbucks.

[BrendaStarr]

133. Actually if you read the article you find

that college majors in everything are having problems especially in computer science.

This we have known has been happening for years now.

What is new is that corporate news has created a special deragatory name for those losing their college skilled jobs right now "White collar assembly line"

Now you and I know that is a trash name and one made up so they don't have to care about what happens to you.

But the same thing happened to us "less skilled" workers in the 70s, 80s, and early 90s and not many of the high skilled people cared. We were just trash.

I am sorry about the people being swept aside by this new offshoring. Maybe we can fight the Bushies and corporate news media together.

Even Kerry had a better plan than these jerks.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

75. That's your opinion. Quite a few people go to college to learn as much...

...as they can, regardless if they use it in their professional careers.

I enjoyed every minute of the seven years I spent in college, and learned as much as I possibly could.

You either never went to college, or you attended a college that you really disliked.

[frustrated_lefty]

122. That's one of the silliest claims I've ever heard.

If you really believe that, I feel sorry for you.

[American liberal]

127. but not everyone has degrees

According to the 2005 World Almanac, 27% of adults have at least a bachelor's degree. I got my bachelor's in my 30s. My income has improved every year since then. Regardless of the LAT story, I still believe getting a college degree is the best thing a person can do for him- or herself.
Peace,
AL

[namvet73]

137. It depends on the student....

Some students are scams in the sense that they are not really interested in gaining an education. They're in it for the money ONLY. The cheaters are usually within that group. (People who want to learn have little reason to cheat.)

Others are curious people who want to be educated in as many ways as possible. The goal of graduating should be to pursue a career of one's interest. This is not to say that money is unimportant. Obviously one can't live without compensation.

The problem now, of course, is that because of off-shoring/outsourcing, some careers are not worth pursuing. As much as one likes to become educated, they should be compensated for their investment in money and time. Outsourcing has made students have to choose careers that lead to more security.

I would say that the heavy outsourcing encourages students to go "for the money" rather than for their passion, because their passion will no longer put food on the table. If college is a scam, it is to some degree because the present economic climate has made it so.

I was in the software development (I hate the term "IT") field since 1975. I got laid off from that career 3+ years ago. I spent my first year out of work, studying hard to sharpen my software skills (heavy on the Object Oriented stuff), but just quit when I found out that it was no longer worth pursuing. I am planning to either sell or recycle most of my CS books.

When I sent an e-mail to some Republican members of my family saying "I lost my CAREER," they replied with a ho-hum, "Oh well, that's the way it goes." attitude. It has also alienated me toward those members.

[aden_nak]

4. Yep. I was one of them.

And, in fact, when my "contract was terminated" at my first "real" job (read: we hired someone else for less money to do more work), I was out for another 3 months or so. The job I have now, in fact, I only got because a friend of mine knew the people who worked here and got me an interview.

It's not a matter of education, unless you are refering to the complete lack of education our lawmakers have on the subject. It's a matter of there not being enough jobs to go around. And it's also a matter of the jobs that ARE out there paying so little, that one person has to work 2 (or sometimes 3) in order to make ends meet.

No one talks about that, when discussing unemployment. That people are paid so little, they often have to work more than one job. And that's one less job available to the rest of the non-working work force. So the next time someone pisses and moans about how raising the minimum wage will reduce the number of jobs available, do me a favor and spang them upside the head with a shovel for me, OK?

[bemildred]

5. Another "No Shit!" analysis from the LA Times. nt

[rocktivity]

18. DING DING DING! Bemildred, you're our grand prize winner!

Another "No Shit!" analysis from the LA Times.

Even a high school guidance counselor would tell you that a college degree depreciates rapidly once you're in the workplace. Suggesting that 10 or 20-year veterans should use their college degrees as leverage in the job market is ridiculous. No doubt there's a larger number of executive level people out of work nowadays, but it's not because they have college degrees. This is VERY much a non-story.

:headbang:
rocknation

[bemildred]

19. I'm starting to think blue-collar is the way to go these days.

At least if your are a roofer of a plumber they can't send
your job to Asia. Knowing how to grow food is probably a good
skill to pick up too.

[Boomer]

21. I would give my first-born...

...for a master electrician who would re-wire my house. I've spent three YEARS trying to find an electrician that will:

1) Answer the phone or return my call on an answering machine

2) Provide an estimate of the work, THEN ACTUALLY AGREE TO DO IT (see #1 above)

3) Return to my house after beginning work and then saying "I'll be back next week." (see #1 above)

[bemildred]

24. There you go. If that is not opportunity knocking, I don't know what is.

[jdj]

39. this and a decent mechanic who won't rip you off.

hmmm.

[Carolab]

117. Concrete work too. It's a killing. n/t

[tubbacheez]

82. The main danger for blue-collar work is...

automation. When a robot can match a human, that job is on shaky ground. When a robot can out-perform a human, that job is over.



The main danger for white-collar work is outsourcing, like the article said.



The main danger for bigwig fatcats is falling out of political favor.



Nobody is perfectly safe.
Stay alert and stay agile.
Be ready to change when change happens.

[amazona]

93. er about that roofer

Maybe I shouldn't mention this but when my house was crushed the general contractor hired what were pretty obviously non-American citizens to do the work.

Your job may not be out-sourced but unless you can afford to work for less than minimum, I wouldn't be a roofer.

The conservation movement is a breeding ground of communists
and other subversives. We intend to clean them out,
even if it means rounding up every birdwatcher in the country.
--John Mitchell, US Attorney General 1969-72

[bemildred]

100. We do have a lot of immigrant labor in the building trades.

On the other hand, I have a neighbor who is latino, a roofer (union),
and doing very well, and I am related to a plain old american
carpenter (runs his own business) who is also rolling in dough and
has more work than he wants.

To be sure, it may not be that easy to get in in some trades.

[Art_from_Ark]

125. Roofing is real tough work

It gets HOT up on those roofs, and you always run the risk of slipping and falling off the roof

[meow2u3]

33. College was never intended to be merely a job training route

but the corporate powers that be made it into one. Hence, the business schools and the majors they offer: Screwing the Poor 101, Greed 102, Cheating Investors and Getting Off Scot-free 900.

(I made those up).

[Lydia Leftcoast]

51. You're right about that

College was originally intended as a training ground for teachers and clergy, as well as a holding tank for affluent young people where they could acquire a little culture before going into a business that would train them on the job. Even doctors could get into medical school without a four-year degree, and one could become a lawyer simply by "reading law" as an apprentice to a practicing attorney and then passing the bar exam.

When I was in grad school at Yale, I saw an exhibit to mark one of the university's anniversaries (it was founded in 1700), and in those days, the curriculum was heavily based on Latin, Greek, mathematics, literature, philosophy, and theology. One of the items on display was a schedule for a day on which all the sophomores were required to hold debates in Latin.

Quite a difference from today's degrees in Corporate Health and Fitness or Personnel Management.

[davekriss]

91. "today's degrees in Corporate Health and Fitness..."

And that, in a nutshell, describes the decline in western civilization!!

[Conscious Confucius]

7. College Degrees Don't Mean Anything Anymore

If it's so easy to acquire a degree then the value of said degree is worthless. Some employers don't even care what your degree is in as long as you have one. What's the point?

[DeepModem Mom]

8. Thanks for posting, CC -- and welcome to DU!

[Skittles]

41. I have spent many a work day editing stuff written by college grads

I'm not sure what the f*** they teach there.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

54. Colleges have become desperate for students

The top tier schools are still highly selective, but the rest will take anybody with anywhere near normal intelligence and put them through a basically vocational curriculum. They won't impose too many requirements, because then the students will complain and go elsewhere.

One of the reasons I became disillusioned with college teaching was that the administrators were treating students with the attitude of "the customer is always right," and those of us who thought that students should learn good writing skills or should acquire some basic cultural literacy (e.g. If they're studying Japanese, they should be able to find Japan on a map and be aware that it doesn't have the same language, food, architecture, music, or much of anything else as China) were criticized.

"You people are all academic success stories," my dean once told a group of us faculty. "Your expectations are too high."

Imagine an administrator telling faculty not to set high standards!

That's what's wrong with colleges today.

[Skittles]

66. something has gone wrong

I work with people, some of whom have several degrees, who cannot write a decent sentence.

[XemaSab]

70. It's my observation

that having degrees and being able to write a sentence are two disparate things.

Some of the worst writers I have ever seen were English majors, and some of the best were either science majors or hadn't even graduated high school.

[Skittles]

73. they should not give degrees to people who cannot write

and I mean ANY kind of degree

[XemaSab]

74. That would narrow the job competition

so fast your head would spin.

On the other hand, people working tech jobs in India probably write better than most Americans.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

76. Unfortunately, many colleges do not require English majors to

take any writing courses beyond freshman English, which is the most basic of the basic courses. The last college I taught at was unusual in offering a course in English grammar, but it was not required of majors, oddly enough.

[XemaSab]

79. Grammar seems to have fallen out of fashion

in schools.

The only class I ever took in grammar and punctuation was in 12th grade, and that was in honors English--a remedial step by an outraged English teacher.

My mom's a grammar and punctuation fiend, but I pity the folks who are never taught even the basics.

[shrike]

101. Unreal

I write for a living, so talk like this amazes me.

Though in my business, some of the best creative writers aren't grammarians -- that's what editors are for. Some people are just brilliant at putting fresh and original ideas on paper. However, they can't spell, conjugate, etc., etc.

[L.A.dweller]

119. English majors must take

a writing about Literature course. In addition, they take rigorous literature courses that require critical analysis, and writing. When papers are turned in, professors scrutinize them by reviewing grammar AND content.

You obviously don't work within the English department.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

120. That varies from college to college

Starting about thirty years ago, there was a small movement within English departments that urged instructors not to pay too much attention to grammar or even originality but to "validate the students' feelings." I actually had an instructor like that, and she was truly annoying. Some of those people may still be around. Their students certainly are.

Another damaging trend was the adoption of French literary theory, whose practitioners excel at saying nothing in as many multisyllabic words as possible. Reading the essays in PMLA is like reading Finnesgan's Wake at times. Those authors may hold tenured positions in prestigious universities, but they are not good writers, because their writing does not communicate anything other than "Look how pretentious I am."

(When I was in academia, I always acted on the principle that if I couldn't express something in plain English, then I probably didn't understand the subject matter myself. The critiques of my dissertation all praised my ability to express complex ideas clearly.)

Now take an English department where some of the instructors are of the touchy-feely type and others think that good writing means being incomprehensible. The effect on the students, who probably didn't learn much in the way of writing skills in high school, is potentially crippling.

In my teaching career, I ran into several English majors who couldn't write a coherent sentence. You may be lucky enough to be associated with a rigorous department.

[serryjw]

131. I loved your post

When I was out in the trenches for 3 years, working to defeat the Monarch, I talked to many MBA's that were voting for Bushit & CO. The art of critical thinking USED to be taught in college. Unfortunately, it is not. It is mostly about memorizing stuff to pass tests and get one more class under your belt toward a degree.
The biggest problem with the argument of college or trade school is no one thinks about what the world will be like in the NEXT 30 years. WHY would anyone take on the debt to go to medical school today? It has not been a high paying profession for 20 years unless you go into one of the super specialties.

Lets think about it now...If you had a teen of 16 what would you suggest the study for the earning potential for the next 40 years?

[mhr]

9. Employment Numbers Without the Spin (Bush's Missing 11.3 Million Jobs)

Comstock Partners, Inc.

Employment Numbers Without the Spin
March 10, 2005

Last Friday the report that February payroll employment increased by a monthly 262,000 was greeted with great enthusiasm by the stock market and most economists. This was the 39th month since the official recession bottom in November 2001. The following is an attempt to put this number into perspective without the spin.

In the previous five expansionary economic cycles the average increase in employment over the first 39 months was 10.1%. In the current cycle the increase is 1.5%.

If employment had climbed by 10.1 % since November 2001, we would have added 13.2 million jobs instead of the 1.9 million actually reported. That’s a difference of 11.3 million jobs.

If we did add 13.2 million jobs on the current cycle, the average monthly increase would have amounted to 338,000. Instead the monthly average increase has been only 50,000, and we have exceeded 300,000 in only three separate months out of the 39.

Snip ......

http://www.comstockfunds.com/screenprint.cfm?newsletterid=1165

[TahitiNut]

12. Yep. That's what I've been saying for over two years.

This shows the seasonally-unadjusted monthly employment numbers. The economic disenfranchisement of ten million workers is clear.

[mhr]

10. Unemployed 59 Months

BSEE
MBA
Honorably Discharged Naval Officer
Commercial Pilot
15 + years of professional work experience

Send resumes everyday - no reply.
Update (change) my job board resumes every week - has no effect.

Was told two weeks ago by a headhunter that my situation was not unique and that there was nothing he could do for me - unemployed too long.

So basically, our society is telling me that I have no future here.

Might as well go shoot myself for all America cares!

[expatriot]

11. THEIR America may not care... but OUR America cares immensely.

I am sorry about your current situation but you definitely can't think like the sentiments expressed in your last line. America can't afford to lose you.

[mhr]

14. One Cannot Live On Air Forever

I am merely expressing and reflecting the sentiment that the country is displaying to myself and millions of others.

[mahina]

17. Yep, I hear you... my Dad had a similar take.

19 years 11 mos 3 weeks Army (go figure), banking career, one bad move and was unemployed for the next 10 years. He took his skills out on his own, rescuing companies that were going broke.
Working against the bankers essentially.
But no corp. would even talk to him, they said he was overqualified.
Speaking as an employer I think there is an assumption that if someone is out of work for a long time there is a reason- that maybe all the other people who interviewed him are smarter than you ( interviewer) & knew something you don't so to be safe agree with them. Sheep mentality.
That's why it's a good idea to go find some charitable organization you care about and volunteer, so employers can see you can get along with other people etc.
I wish my Dad had gone to the Hawaii Community Foundation and hooked up with the group of retired financial folks who volunteer time to good causes. Get him back in the game.
God bless and best of luck, I promise there are people out there who truly need what you have to offer.
NGU

[mhr]

20. I Am Sure You Are Correct - However I Can't Work For Free Any Longer

I volunteered over 1,000 hours of my time from April through November last election cycle.

All it got me was a huge headache, emotional disappointment, and a larger hole in my economic pocket.

I basically don't leave the house any longer because the cost to do so is just to great.

[jdj]

46. I wonder if "overqualified" meant to old and we're gonna have

to shell out a pension right after we get you trained?

[Trillo]

60. Bingo! nt

[XemaSab]

71. Pension?

this is not a word I know...

/sarcasm

[mahina]

85. nope,

'overqualified' meant you are one intimidating former special forces and an intelligent gentleman who would whoop my ass in a minute and no one here could get along with.
Just about right.
He was a good democrat too.
Miss him every day.

[Mairead]

13. One of the reasons dictators don't like educated people

is that educated people who can't find work tend to become revolutionaries and overthrow dictators.

How long will it take here?

[davekriss]

98. AMEN! (n/t)

[area51]

23. "Might as well go shoot myself for all America cares!"

I care, & I'm sure many others care too. I'm furious that you & millions of people are still out of work, & the media acts like this economy is either doing fine or booming. It obviously is not; I think we're in the 2nd Great Depression. My dad is a retired engineer & watches Faux Snooz & listens to Rusty Limpdick & drinks their Kool-Aid. I told him I know of an engineer unemployed for a long time & he was shocked, b/c he'll never hear the truth from Faux. But he's got the "I've got mine, now F U" 'tude, b/c he's in favor of offshoring, & he thinks his social security won't be cut. The fool.

[spikesmom]

63. I care too!

I have read several of your posts and my heart goes out to you!

[Ezlivin]

29. The only jobs left: Walmart and military

My wife and I are both veterans and believe that the current administration is purposely backing everyone into an economic corner so that the only choice is to enlist.

I served with many other enlisteds who had joined because of the benefits (VA, etc.) and a steady paycheck.

How bad will the economy have to get before thousands are economically "drafted" into the military?

[Capn Sunshine]

104. Don't forget the prisons

One of the growth industries of the 21st century as they continue to criminalize being poor, having poor health, or being a dissenter

We currently have a higher percentage of our citizens locked up than any other country.

[Cadence]

36. Same here.

I have a B.S. in Computer Science with 8 years engineering experience.
I was laid off due to overseas outsourcing 22 months ago, and I can't find anything. Same experience your having sending out resumes and not hearing anything back. I had a recruiter for a contract technical company tell me I'd be hard to place because I've been out of work for so long. It sucks royally.

[mhr]

59. Hi Cadence - It Truly Is Not Our Imaginations

This economy is not creating jobs and that is a fact.

I have grown weary talking about it because so many are sure that people like you and I must just be exceptions to the rule.

Sadly we are not. Wait till this happens to them.

[Cadence]

68. Hi back Mhr. :) I know. That's exactly what I think.

"Wait till this happens to them." It's just a matter of time. Of course then it will be too late and we'll spend decades recovering from this.
I miss the 90's... life was so happy and prosperous. I remember once I got mad at Clinton for raising taxes... geez now I'd take the taxes just to have a job and all of the opportunities I had when he was President. Sorry Bill.. I knew not what I was thinking.

[hootinholler]

94. I really feel for you guys.

Maybe you can use Mhr's MBA to form the unemployed engineer software development consortium.

I was planning to get into open source development just to stay sharp, but luckily, I found an opening. See below.

-Hoot

[LoganW]

110. Nope, it's not

Hear the news about McDonalds?

[American liberal]

128. I am very sorry to hear about your plight

The "haves and the have-mores" have absolutely no clue. And now they're making it more difficult for people to file Chapter 7. Frist's rhetoric made me yell out loud at the radio. Despicable!

[RazzleCat]

130. I was also outsourced

took me almost two years to get a "real job" again but with out benefits, and at less pay and net admin is only about 30% of what I do. I had to find a job with a small company that needed a jack of all trades, hence i am the net admin, co project director of new construction, phone message taker and person who fixes anything with a button (alarms, intercoms, electronic locks, remotes) oh and I also fix small appliances when I can. (FYI I work for a company that does historic re-habs and rents the converted units). Sad part is I am so scared of loosing this job that I know I am letting the owners abuse my services, I mean hey I was hired for net admin and last week I was under a sink fixing a garbage disposal, and trying to access the quality of work that the roofers did on a project.

[davekriss]

96. mhr this is tragic

I experienced 14 months of unemployment and, though I had a cushion, it was very difficult on me, very difficult on my family.

First, though, ignore the headhunter's remarks. My experience with headhunters has been that they, as a group, are about as deep as a puddle in a Walmart parking lot (which means not very).

I've seen all the advice given to you over the months, so I'll spare you. All I can say is hang in there. If you are Christian then pray. If you are Buddhist then chant. If you are an aethist then enjoy blue skies and green trees. Do whatever you need to do to reveal to yourself that your worth and dignity is not measured by your paycheck.

An old poem I remember seeing on a Unicef poster when I was a child...

Ahh!
that's why the birds can sing
on the darkest day
they believe in spring!

We live in screwy times! May the road ahead find your problems resolved.

[ckramer]

103. mhr

Click on the following link and tell your story to Howard Dean. They are collecting similiar stories on their website.

http://www.democracyforamerica.com/socialsecurity/

Edit: this link is better:

http://petition.democracyforamerica.com/page/petition/stories

[pedestrian]

116. mhr, this is such sad reading,

I'm so sorry! Please believe that we care, that I care, and that things may change. And if you're as depressed as you sound, do get out of that house, if only to go to a cafe for a glass of water.

As for volunteering, apart from getting references that may land a job later, it is a way to meet nice people. Since much socializing either happens at the workplace or costs money, volunteering may be one of few opportunities to talk and laugh together with others. As you point out, volunteering does nothing for the stress and distress of being out of cash - but it does counteract the tendency to confuse the absence of a paycheck with a lack of worth. I guess a basic assumption of crude capitalism is that worth and price are exactly the same thing, and somehow we're conditioned to think that way, but it is not true.

Have you got any interest in teaching? Volunteer teaching has been the most rewarding kind of volunteer work I've tried - the kids/students demand full attention and get one's thoughts off the usual worries. (I've been unemployed since last summer, and sometimes feel sorry for myself... but after having read these posts I guess I see I'm lucky!)

Best of luck to you!

The Pedestrian

[mhr]

121. Hi Pedestrian, Thanks For The Thoughtful Words And Suggestions

To allay your fears, I do get out from time to time. This weekend I will attend my Lakoff study group. Nice as that may be, it does little for job networking. Other Liberals are similarly afflicted.

When I volunteered last spring, summer, and fall on a local congressional campaign, I handed my resume to anyone that would take one. It was all to no avail. Poor people generally don't know others that are hiring.

The reason I don't leave the house very often is because it is expensive. When you don't have any income for a very long time you begin to think in terms of how much daily living actually costs.

I still send resumes but don't have much hope of finding work.

[pedestrian]

142. Living unemployed for five years

and still caring about things, attending a study group, participating on a discussion board, not having totally given in to hopelessness, is quite an accomplishment. Not everybody gets through the daily struggle against the sense of defeat for that long.

My father was unemployed for some 10 years, and it was very unhealthy and demoralizing. He lives in a social-democratic European country, though, where unemployment benefits don't dry up to an extent that makes for abject poverty. A few years ago the government started a campaign to get long-term unemployed people back to work by subsidizing jobs in a number of industries. An employer could hire my father without risking much, since the salary would initially be paid largely by the state, and so my father got a job which he has kept. He and his employer are both pleased with the arrangement. Don't know why I'm telling you this, though; I don't see the US doing anything similar these days... In countries where the state spends a lot of money on unemployment benefits anyway the incentive to spend money on reintroducing people to the labor market is greater, I guess.

Anyway, I'm impressed with your resilience. Do keep kicking. Who knows what the next years will bring?

The Pedestrian

[artemisia1]

135. Hell no!

Think outside the box! True, things suck right now, particularly for IT and and other technical fields, but hey, you made it through flight school and OCS (or the Academy)! You can find a way to make a living - even if it's using different skills than your degrees and credentials are in.

Don't scare me with this talk of shooting yourself. I know you're probably not serious, but you've accomplished some pretty tough things in your life and can beat this economy also.

[okieinpain]

16. there are some degrees that work, restaurant management,

accounting degrees, but I have to admit the tech degrees are slowing becoming junk. I've been thinking about moving into automotive repair.

[Blue_Tires]

22. i could write a novel about my experiences

i'll tag this thread for a detailed post later

[Blue_Tires]

143. another problem is the 'business of college"

somewhere along the line, high-profile sports programs, and a party-town atmosphere with cute girls and hot guys and oceans of cheap beer seemed to take precedent over getting a real education...I had friends of mine in high school that chose florida state and UNC all because they wanted to see some good football and basketball, respectively....Many high schoolers now are just looking to party, screw, or pledge while doing only the minimal amount of work needed to graduate...as a result, many are unprepared (as i was, to an extent) for the harsh realities of life once you get out of school, and the gravy train from mom and dad ends.

Looking back, I know I would have done just about everything different about college, from what school i chose, my major, funding tuition, and how i applied myself in class...I know hindsight is 20/20, but looking back, I would have been better off going to an in-state public school or even a technical school than an out-of-state private which when i was there did next to nothing to prepare me for the real world (and i know, 99 percent of that is my failing)....

So since that time, and for a number of reasons, I've spent more of my life since college unemployed than employed, and I'm still saddled with $30,000 in loans left to pay off...("wow, blue_tires, you seem just a little bitter!")

[Blue_Tires]

145. more ranting about the 'system' (blue_tires is on fire!!)

It’s ALL about marketing these days to impressionable high-schoolers…The undergrad school I graduated from (a private, liberal arts college which will remain unnamed), sold itself on it’s history, strong professional networking base, and a very distinguished list of famous alums…Which all meant jack-shit when it came to getting a job…In fact, I had to go to a grad school for another two years to even come close to ‘hirable.’ My cousin came to the same school a couple of years after me, graduated with an accounting degree, and was lucky to get a job as a bank teller…He since left that job and is now happy as a construction worker(!) for his father’s company (which he could have done without shelling out $18 grand per year in tuition).

The message I want to say to any future college students and their parents is this: Please research and really think out your college and career choice…I know it is foolish to cry over spilt milk, but I would probably sell my soul to travel back in time and talk some sense into my high school self. Since then I have made a series of planning blunders that has seriously slowed my career track and earning potential, maybe permanently (it’s getting a little late in the game to reverse things, so I’m thinking about changing to a new career altogether).

For students: if you aren’t a Parade All-American, or earning an academic free ride to college, use some foresight and caution when choosing a college, since where you go and what you do there pretty much dictates the course of your life. For those that are unsure what they want to major in, at least try to narrow it down to liberal or fine arts or applied sciences. If you can’t do that, then make sure you choose a school that is well-rounded in both…Don’t choose a school just because of name recognition, or because it’s a sexy or elitist choice, or because your parents and their parents went there, or because of the hot women, parties, greeks, etc…. And for the love of the gods, do NOT fall for any of their ‘future leaders of tomorrow’ marketing BS!! Even the worst colleges and universities have some positives they can brag about to recruits. Talk to current students and alums (and not alums that graduated 20 years ago) for their HONEST opinions.

Find a school that fits for you—a simple concept, but so many people, including myself and some of my friends ignored it. If you know you want to major in one of the pedestrian subjects, like accounting, history or English (not a slam against those majors, since I was an English grad as well, lol), try NOT to get your heart set on mortgaging your financial future to go to ivy league when your state university will suffice (provided they have good programs). If you want to be a physicist, then it is useless to shell out big bucks to go to some small, artsy liberal arts school where all they do is graduate musicians and dancers…and vice-versa; if you want to write poetry, then a school of architecture may not be your forte. If you want to study abroad, find a school which has a well-supported program, because it is much, much harder and more expensive to travel abroad on your own…Make sure you whore those internship opportunities to the max, because in my field at least, you are damn near worthless without them.

Never assume that because it’s a famous school with name recognition that: 1. ALL of their major programs are stellar, in case you ever want to change your major, and 2: Potential employers will be beating down the door to hire you and pay you lots of $$$$. Try not to associate college degree=instant job with benefits and security; a terrible fallacy. And if getting a good job is really important after school, then PLEASE find a school with a great career placement and counseling department---I have yet to see a school with one, but they have to exist somewhere. My best friend dropped out of the 10th grade 11 years ago, and I still have yet to earn more than he does in a year (yes, what he does is legal).

I hope these little rants have opened the eyes of just one person---I just want to spare someone from the regretful mistakes I made: Choosing the wrong school for me when I had my choice of going to better ones and paying less $$$$, and a career field so screwed that I’m soon-to-be unemployed, and will be forced to move back in with the parents for the time being…The punchline is even though I’m knocking on the door of age 30, EVERY one of the potential employers I’m interviewing with would only pay me the salary of a noob fresh out of college ($20-25k depending on the city and employer). I’m a classic ‘tweener,’ too old and experienced for any of the developmental or training programs, and too inexperienced for many of the ‘real’ jobs paying a decent wage…caveat emptor.

[Blue_Tires]

147. ttt one time

[annabanana]

25. I'm about to launch an 18 year old off to school...

And his 16 year old brother is on his heels........The state colleges look to cost about 120K for the both of them (if they live "out").

Should I just hand them a wrench?

[Boomer]

30. Do they REALLY want to go to college?

By that, I mean do they each have a specific passion -- such as engineering, math, biology, whatever -- that they wish to pursue?

Or are they going to college because that's what they're expected to do and they'll figure out what to do with themselves while they're there. Or because it's supposed to lead to better salaries?

If the first is their answer, then try to do it because this is the time to reach for dreams. But if they're fuzzy on motivation or purpose, then do some serious thinking before you spend that much money on the assumption they'll get it back eventually.

There are alternatives such as junior college and trade schools. Or just taking a year or two off to develop a specific goal that will make their college attendance meaningful.

[shrike]

34. My above post regarding trade schools

Lots of good opportunities there. Unfortunately, Reagan dismantled the good trade school system we had in place during the 1980s.

Lord almighty, $120k. Glad I went to school when I did.

[XemaSab]

72. I went to JC for a few years

and it really helped me focus my interests. When I got to "real" college, there was still more focusing to be done, but JC definitely pointed me in the right direction.

[Boomer]

26. Go into debt, stay in debt

The rationale for taking on tens of thousands of dollars of debt to pay for college tuition is that having a college degree will provide a higher salary throughout your working life, enough to pay off the debt and still come out ahead.

Fantasy? I'm beginning to think so.

A good friend of mine went BACK to school in her mid 40s to get yet another degree. She needed financial assitance for tuition, so she took on a load of debt that required getting a second job for several years. All this to keep the mediocre job that she had in the first place and feared losing.

It's a game that never ends.

[uncertainty1999]

108. Indentured Servitude -- to Credit Card / Loan Companies!

The lure of being transported to the middle class -- just give up X years and any hope of establishing yourself financially for years and years and years...

[Blue_Tires]

146. that's the truth n/t

[Serial Mom]

28. But dubya wants people to make use of Community Colleges

to get the training they need!

[htuttle]

32. Nonsense. We hire people with post-graduate degrees all the time

You can still get a job with us if you only have an undergraduate degree, but we're thinking of restricting it to just honors recipients.

Then again, I work at a taxicab cooperative. We can afford to be choosy nowdays unlike the fast food jobs. They'll hire anyone.

:shrug:

[conflictgirl]

43. Actually, no they won't.

Fast food places won't generally hire people with a lot of professional experience. They consider such people "overqualified" and figure they'll quit as soon as they find a better paying job (but nevermind the fact that if they hire teens, the turnover is still high).

There are some areas that are so desperate for fast food workers that they'll take anyone, but I have lots of anecdotal evidence that says that you can indeed be too overqualified for fast food.

[jdj]

49. My manager at Burger King in 87 was an attorney.

I don't know what the story was behind that, I was afraid to ask.

[uncertainty1999]

107. Burnout, I suspect

[jdj]

47. oh, you.

LOL.

[shrike]

35. You know, I hate to say this

Back when offshoring was hitting the blue collar class (I grew up in Detroit), the white collar folk didn't offer much sympathy. Go back to school, they said. Get retrained. You should have planned ahead and gone to college.

Now the boot is on the other foot, so to speak.

[trogdor]

57. Lots of unemployed with degrees...

...are the ones who took the advice of those who told them college was the way out of blue-collar hell. The advice was good, for awhile.

Now they're giving these same people the same advice? The question is, how many times should someone be expected to suck it up and retrain in one lifetime?

[shrike]

58. Very true

I feel tremendously sorry for those people. They were sold a bill of goods. (I know some of them personally.) I remember the big thing back in the early '90s was CAD training. Go back to school and learn CAD, and you'll have a job for life. Is CAD even done in the United States anymore?

[Autobot77]

44. Surprise, surprise...

I'm one of the long-term unemployed having been unemployed for almost a year, through no fault of my own, plus I have a college degree. ( Well not counting a "job" I had after where the guy tried to screw me over). Now you have to jump through hoops to get crappy jobs. (personality tests, background checks, drug tests, Math and reading tests.)
I have the same problems as some of the other posters, I send out like a thousand resumes and never get a response, maybe an interview once and a while. The only jobs out there now, are Wal-Mart, the military, or high pressure "commission only" sales jobs.
One of the problems is that nowadays its all "who you know". The rich kids with connections are the only ones getting jobs even if they're totally incompetent.

[zara]

48. Consulting the only way out.?

My wife is in this boat. She's bilingual with a high honors university degree. No one hiring people like her. They just make their existing staff work harder or use consultants on a temporary basis to avoid benefits and facilities costs. So she has had to become a consultant. Which means pay your own withholding taxes and work from home.

[w4rma]

45. Engineering, accounting, scientific jobs are being outsourced.

Innovation is being stifled by the fact that innovation is no longer needed for the ultra-wealthy to make money.

[jburton]

52. Many jobs "require" a degree now

The competition for jobs is so fierce now that employers simply add "college degree required" as a means to reduce the overwhelming number of applicants per open position.

Go to Monster.com and you'll see plenty of $8.00/hr temp jobs with "college degree required" that have zero relevance to any degree program.

[Jamison]

61. in reply to post above...

No kidding, it's getting so bad nowadays that soon you will have to have a BA in public relations just to be a greeter at Wal-Mart.

[DeepModem Mom]

67. Thanks for posting, Jamison -- and welcome to DU!

[LoganW]

111. Ha

Wouldn't surprise me.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

78. It's also an old trick to keep minority applicants out

When I was in grade school (1950s), we lived in a town that had a large black population. My mother saw an ad where the local electric company was advertising for meter readers. One of the requirements was two years of college.

We had a neighbor who worked for the electric company, so my mom asked his wife why a meter reader needed two years of college.

"Oh," she said with appalling frankness,"that's to prevent the n*****s from applying."

[Autobot77]

84. Wasn't there a study done recently?

Where they sent resumes to several different companies with equal qualifications except some resumes had "white" names,some had "black' names and some had "foreign" sounding names and the resumes that got called back were the ones who seemed "white".

[pedestrian]

114. Yes, people with 'white' names

are 50 % more likely to get a response to their resumé than people with 'black' names. That's according to a study done in 2002, I believe.

http://college.wsj.com/resourcecenter/collegian/20030227-hicks.html
http://www.blackwebportal.com/wire/DA.cfm?ArticleID=1133

The Pedestrian

[spikesmom]

62. Bush Refuses To Admit To Unemployment Crisis In America !

Fascist George will continue to say that "outsourcing is a good thing" and that he will "open the borders to mexicans to do the jobs that Americans won't do". At this point,there aren't too many jobs that Americans won't do! A college degree doesn't guarantee anything these days and I have seen alot of educated people in dead end retail or fast food jobs lately. I, myself, am one of them -working for peanuts at temp job after temp job ( and the temp agencies are notorious for screwing over the temps).

[hootinholler]

88. A couple of comments.

Everyone does realize that when your unemployment insurance runs out, you are no longer counted in the unemployed figure, right?

My story:

I'm an auto-didactic software engineer. I came into it via the technical hardware route. I was lucky to hold a job during the Raygun/Bush I recession (also while acquiring 3 beautiful mouths to feed and brains to train). After 9 years at that company I got laid off during the tech bubble and opened a woodworking operation that I had to fold after 9 months. (that's a long story) From there, Since I still had unemployment insurance unclaimed, I went on unemployment for a couple of months while looking for work. Found a contract position that lasted 16 months, and moved on to another under a temp to perm that lasted another 16 months. In December 2001 after having some conflicts (I was a team lead standing up for my team) with a new manager, I was laid off. 7 months later, found work as a site consultant great pay and benefits, loved the work but 14 months in I had some health problems (sleep apnea) and was laid off in the annual purge. 11 months later I found a 6 month contract that was canceled at the end of 5 (project killed). That was Jan 30. Thankfully, as I was contemplating having my sister come take my guns because I am flat out of money, prone to depression, and headed into despair, I got a call from an interview I went on in early Feb. I start Monday, I had given up on that position (with a government contractor).

Now if you're still with me, you might be thinking, gee isn't that a nice outcome, but what does it have to do with this thread?

Well, all you people who think your degrees are worthless, they aren't. They keep your resume out of the HR department shit can. That's the sole function of your sheepskin these days. They don't mean that you can write, read or even perform the most mundane task associated with your specialty. They mean you are in the club.

The only reason I got that position is because during the 5 month contract, I fixed some code that was really bad and impressed the hell out of someone who knew someone hiring. Then after I got the interview I impressed him enough to go to bat for me and get my lack of a degree waived. That's what took the month. I honestly don't know where I would be in a month if it weren't for that, because I'm hitting up my sister for a $500 loan so I can feed my kids and buy gas until I get my first paycheck.

Anybody want to buy a 14 year old aluminum bass boat?

-Hoot

[shrike]

95. Thanks for your post

You put it much better than I could have. Yeah, the degree gets you in the club. Simplest way I know how to put it.

And congratulations on your new job.

[hootinholler]

102. Thank you.

I'm so thankfull. It means real benefits, not COBRA which will end March 31 anyway. I have no clue how someone is able to survive 59 months on unemployment.

-Hoot

[mhr]

113. No Wife, No Kids, No Girlfriend, No Mortgage, No CC Debt,

Car paid for, no medical insurance and deep savings.


Its called living cheap because you never know when hell will end!

[lonestarnot]

139. Woohooo Hoot! Employed! n/t

[amazona]

89. because no one wants the over-qualified

THe jobs available are low-paying service jobs. No one wants a dissatisfied employee demoralizing the other workers, hence the prejudice against those who have degrees.

The conservation movement is a breeding ground of communists
and other subversives. We intend to clean them out,
even if it means rounding up every birdwatcher in the country.
--John Mitchell, US Attorney General 1969-72

[98geoduck]

105. right on! Question Authority? good luck at Mal Wart!

[high density]

109. I've made $1000 off of my computer science degree in the 1.5 years

since I graduated... It's such a great economy we've got going here.

[NuttyFluffers]

115. that's why i'm gettin a language degree and getting the hell outta 'Dodge'

screw this! gettin my japanese degree, perhaps double major in international relations focus on japan. get a job in japan and try to continue in school. if not that then try for a 2nd bachelors in french and music, and maybe shoot for law, and then get my ass outta this place. screw this!

you'd think europe or japan would have use of a person who at the end could speak japanese, french, english, and spanish with skills in policy and arts. sure as hell this country wouldn't have any use for all that 'fluffy' stuff. screw 'em. don't wanna improve your market share, america, by knowing your customer base? ain't my problem. sit and spin with your mass produced imported crap, america. watch when no one can afford to buy even that.

i've had it. watch the brain drain happen here, then the $#!+ will really hit the fan.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

140. I think you may be on to something

Many Americans have made interesting careers for themselves in Japan.

The way to do it is to go over as an English teacher and then start making connections.

[spikesmom]

124. We are being sold as commodities by our own government and politicians

Check out this website and see all the senators who are involved in working with India's trade groups to outsource jobs in favor of their people and to allow more H-1B's in to our country. http://www.usinpac.com/Opportunities.asp?SEC_ID=6

This is why our people are out of work! This is really disturbing!

[spikesmom]

138. See Lying Senators Who Are Part of US-India Caucus!!!!!

Look at the backstabbing senators that we put in office!!!! They are helping corporations and gov't in India get better outsourcing deals and more H-1B visas to be sent here! They aren't helping us and don't let them fool you, our employees are just as educated as theirs- we just have greedier politicians who are easily motivated to sell us out! http://www.usinpac.com/Content.asp?SEC_ID=5

[QC]

126. Boo-Fuckin'-Hoo--People With Degrees Are Being Sold Down the River Now....

Twenty-five years ago, when those grubby, déclassée production-line workers were getting sold out, their "betters" couldn't be bothered to worry about them. "Joe Sixpack" was just too naive and uncultured to "upgrade his skill-set" and all that.

But now that the college boys (and girls) are getting fucked over in precisely the same way that their tacky bowling-and-beer distant cousins were not long ago, it's an outrage that everyone, even the people who have been working for WalMart these past two decades, should care about.

Sure. Whatever....

Is it time for all working people--which means everyone who works for a salary--to unite now?

Or shall we continue to spend our last few moments before serfdom trading jokes about trailers?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

141. I have to agree with you, QC

Where the Democrats fell down during the Reagan administration was in doing nothing about the factory workers and farmers who were losing their livelihoods. All they did was bash the Asian countries instead of saying, "Hmm, maybe our industrial policy needs to be changed to ensure jobs for blue collar workers in the future."

If you're an athlete who consistently loses to the same opponent, just bashing them won't make you win. You have to either figure out what they're doing and do it better, or you have to find techniques and tactics that they haven't thought of.