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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 03:12 PM
Original message
US, Taiwan fear power balance may be shifting (To China)
http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/edit/archives/2005/03/09/2003245548

China will spend an extra 12.6 percent on its armed forces this year, the government announced on Friday, adding to Washington's fear that the balance of power in the Taiwan Strait is tilting toward Beijing.

The sharpest rise for three years, it will give political ammunition to US Congress members who have threatened a trade war with the EU if Brussels goes ahead with its plan to lift its arms embargo on China later this year.

The National People's Congress is expected to approve a military budget of 247.7 billion yuan (US$29.9 billion) at its annual meeting, when security issues are unusually high on the agenda. The nearly 3,000 members will also debate a law threatening Taiwan with punitive action, including, ultimately, a military attack, if it pushes for independence.

This is nothing new, but China is increasingly capable of backing its words with action.

With its 2.5 million soldiers, the People's Liberation Army is the world's biggest armed force.

more

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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 03:13 PM
Response to Original message
1. They just noticed?????
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cliss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. (snaps fingers) you beat me to it.
When I read the article, I thought, just replace the word 'fear' with 'know'.


"US, Taiwan, know power balance is shifting (to China).
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #1
16. Yeah, todays "No Shit Sherlock!" award. nt
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ProgressiveConn Donating Member (820 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 03:14 PM
Response to Original message
2. All we need to do is sell Taiwan a pair of Boomers full of nukes.
If China wants to trade its major cities for Tiawan let it...
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oneighty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. And the US mainland?
Will be nuked as well
or
Will not be nuked as well
or
Maybe Japan will be nuked
or
Maybe Australia will be nuked

Lotta could bes might bes involved here.

180
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. The US mainland nuked over Taiwan?
Hell, I bet a whole bunch of patriotic Americans living in one of our major cities would be proud to give their lives and their families lives to guarantee democracy for the Taiwanese. Any takers? Step forward please.

Don

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oneighty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Do not take my comments out of context Don
It is suggested to take a couple of Boomers in and nuke China. Do you or anybody else think China would let that go by unchallenged?

One must take great care in shaking nuclear weapons about now days.

IMHO
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. I was being sarcastic n/t
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oneighty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Oh! Good.
I admit I was very surprised by your reaction. Hee hee hee.

But I on the other hand was being serious since China has apparently warned Japan and Australia against joining us in aiding Taiwan.

Matsu and Quemoy have been a burr in USA's butt for years.

180
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ProgressiveConn Donating Member (820 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 10:37 PM
Response to Reply #9
31. It was NEVER suggested that we nuke China! Stop reading into things. =)
I did however suggest that we sell the Democracy that is Taiwan a pair of boomers to deter Authoritarian China from invading Taiwan.
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 01:47 AM
Response to Reply #31
36. Unfortunately, China can take many more nukes than Taiwan
Edited on Thu Mar-10-05 01:47 AM by Zynx
I gamed this out in an online forum where some of the players were dumb enough to start a nuclear war with China by attacking its nuclear stockpiles.

China killed/injured almost 40% of Taiwan's population with *five* mid-kiloton (300-350KT) nukes. Taipai and Tainan got incinerated and fell out over the rest of the island.

Islands should not fight nuclear wars.
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ProgressiveConn Donating Member (820 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #36
40. No one should fight nuclear wars.
The presence of nuclear weapons does not mean nuclear war will follow. We cant "unlearn" the technology and we cant remove China's nuclear threat. Remember China doesn't see Taiwan as a foreign hostile entity to be destroyed. It sees it as part of China. It wants Taiwan but it wants it intact. Why would it launch an attack on Taiwan if it realized the M.A.D. result would be the complete depopulation and destruction of Taiwanese infrastructure in addition to massive mainland destruction. Did the sim you ran take that into account? Did Taiwan let loose a nuclear strike on China? Did it merely have land based missiles or did it have subs? I think land based nuclear missiles in Taiwan could increase the chances of a first strike "Wipe out" of Taiwan in the event an invasion landing going bad or Taiwan begining to retaliate. Boomers don't do that though. If Taiwan is open that it has no nuclear weapons on the island the mainland has no reason to nuke their "rebellious province" while it preserves the nuclear retaliatory threat in the event of an invasion.

Lets say we sell them two Ohio class subs. That is 48 trident missiles each with eight warheads. Now lets say that the much less advanced Chinese military is able to destroy one of the subs prior to it launching its missiles in the event of a war. Then lets say that due to mechanical failures and fantastically impossible Chinese missile defense only one out of every sixteen warheads reach their target.

Shanghai, Beijing, Tianjin, Wuhan, Shenyang, Guangzhou, Harbin, Xian Chongqing, Kowloon, Chengdu, Changchun no longer exist.* Which means that upto 50 million mainlanders are dead. The heart of China; the political, economic, social, and educational core of the country no longer exist.

*Yes I realize that it is unlikely that in the situation described above that the 12 missiles that reach their target would be the 12 targeting the largest cities and that in most cases they would instead target cities with multiple IRVs and that Taiwan would be concerned with eliminating Chinese nukes in the event of a nuclear war more than targeting mainland population centers. However it would be just as unlikely that only twelve of 384 possible warheads reach their targets as I don't believe that China is able to track our Boomers since the soviets were supposedly not even close to doing it.

I think the real risk is that if we sell a pair of fully loaded Ohio class subs to Taiwan and Taiwan is then absorbed into china politically/democratically or even militarily (assuming Taiwan's threat of complete retaliation for a Chinese invasion of Taiwan) and then the mainland ends up with our boomers. That single event is enough to turn China from a regional-superpower/world-great power to a world-superpower.
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katsy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #6
15. they don't even have to nuke us...
Someone once told me that even if we armed every man, woman & child with the latest weapons, and the Chinese army floated over here on barges armed with baseball bats... we'd lose hands down.

But look at the bright side... maybe they'd decide to kill all politicians and spare us.
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gordianot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #2
39. They have "State of the Art" , nuclear facilities.
Who knows what they have stored away?
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ProgressiveConn Donating Member (820 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #39
41. Lets assume that China can equal the US and Russia put together in regards
to nuclear potential. Obviously this is a massive exaggeration but I don't think it changes ANYTHING. Now if China had a working starwars program that might be a different story. Read my reply titled "No one should fight a nuclear war." =)
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gordianot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-05 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. Actually I was referring to Taiwan.
Hedging their bets. Just one well placed nuclear airburst would fry China's newly developing infra structure. Who is to say they have not planned for this contingency I understand it is possible to do this now with conventional explosives sort of a EMP bomb.
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Wright Patman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 03:19 PM
Response to Original message
3. According to the fundies
this is set to increase to 200 million and they will march all the way from China into Iraq soon.

http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/n1166.cfm

And, of course, it's all Clinton's fault!
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cliss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Wow, strange article.
How many times did they use 'Clinton'? I think about 200 times.

"Clinton did this"....
"Clinton was the one who...."
"It's all Clinton's fault for....."

But, you know what they say about the Fear Mongers....they'll do it to their own people, too.
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katsy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 04:09 PM
Response to Original message
7. and to think...
We handed it all to them.
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eagler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. Your point not emphasized nearly enough.
And if Chinamart keeps doing well over here and taking our jobs overthere it's only a metter of time.
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tritsofme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 04:40 PM
Response to Original message
10. Trade sanctions for the EU if they resume selling advanced weapons
to China.

It is very important to keep the balance of power in the Taiwan Strait from shifting entirely to China.

This issue is not about partisan "gotcha" games, its about the lives of 25 million people that today live in a free and democratic society, and how they want to be foricibly absorbed by China, which is the world's first modern fascist state.
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. Don't forget that it would be bad for our nation, tactically, also. (nt)
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mog Donating Member (60 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #10
18. I can't help but burst out laughing at this sentence
China, which is the world's first modern fascist state.

This is on par with the freepers who said "liberal commie Nazi". The first? Really? Which Chinese philosopher or politician was a fascist? Which party started the fascist movement? They must have somehow exported their expertise to Europe some point in the past. :eyes:
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tritsofme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. Would classify China as a communist state anymore?
I sure wouldn't.

They are evolving into a modern fascist state.
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mog Donating Member (60 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. I call it authoritarianism
China is only communism in ideology, but nobody give a crap about ideaology anymore. If it is not communism, it doesn't mean it is automatically fascism, and certainly not the first.
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #10
21. And Taiwan has always been a democratic state?............
You may want to check your history on that one. The Nationalists were not known for allowing much in the way of independent thought.

You may also want to check your history on China's governmental system...it's never been fascist in nature. But the Nationalists were, for sure.

Quick question for you...if Florida wanted to set-up shop as an independent nation, how long do you think it would take the US Government to send in the troops?
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tritsofme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. Yes, the Chinese Nationalists
brutally oppressed the native Taiwanese for many years.

But today Taiwan is a free democratic state, and I think we have an obligation to make sure it stays that way.
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mog Donating Member (60 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. An obligation?
Is it the same obligation our anointed leader have for Iraq? What qualification does the US have to act as the world police? It would not be surprising if someday the Taiwanese get annoyed with the US presence. You have to remember, China and Taiwan share the same culture while political differences set the two apart. Unlike the Sunnis and Shites, protestants and catholics, Indians and Pakistanis, Chinese and Taiwanese have no hostility towards each other as people. The tension and crisis are created by the politicians on both sides and feed to the people verbatum. You also have to remember Taiwan is divided over this issue. While most Taiwanese want to maintain the status quo, only a very small numbers of extremists actually want to provoke China and go to war. The Chinese nationalists not only treated the native people poorly, but it was also a dictatorship when Chiang Kai-shek ruled, which didn't stop US from supporting Taiwan. When Chiang Kai-shek died, his son took his place, but fortunately he was alot better than his father and started gradual democratization.
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bloodyjack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 11:54 PM
Response to Reply #27
33. "Chinese and Taiwanese have no hostility towards each other as people"
You must know some very highminded Taiwanese and mainlanders.
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mog Donating Member (60 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 12:42 AM
Response to Reply #33
34. Do you know any Taiwanese and Chinese?
I think that would be a better question.

1). I am Chinese
2). My parents have worked for a very nice Taiwanese couple who reject the thought of independence.
3). I know a Chinese student who was seriously injuried in a car accident, and both Taiwanese and Chinese students took part in caring for him.
4). Here is a superbly written letter by a Taiwanese

I'll give a little information - my parents are from Taiwan. They moved here in the 70's for college and so on and have been extremely successful in American, well among the tops. Their parents went to Taiwan in 1949 after the Nationalist government fled China, both sides of my family for various reasons.

A little background - my family heritage can be traced back generations and generations to China. Mom's side would be from the Zhejiang province which is just a bit south of Shanghai. Dad's side is from Hubei province which is inland, a few hundred to a thousand miles west from the coast. As I stated earlier, my grandparents left China in the wake of the Nationalist defeat at the hands of the communists. On my dad's side, my grandfather fled without any family members except his new wife (grandmother), with little knowledge of what lay ahead - he fled because by this time he was a Captain in the Nationalist Army for well over 8 years (fought the Japanese and then the Communists). His family owned an estate and had a lot of land, but due to years and years of war, he had little contact with them and so could only flee without knowledge of what happened to them. He did know that his brother, who was older than him, had died leading men earlier in his life fighting the communists. It turns out that decades later when contact between Taiwan and China was allowed that my grandfather's mother had actually been sentenced to stone to death by the communists simply for being a landowner. Of all his family members, only his sister (who later immigrated to Houston) and two uncles (both of whom were generals in the Nationalist Army before even WW2) went to Taiwan.

So yes, I do have quite a stake in what happens. You see, what many people outside don't realize on this issue of Taiwan is what people do think. Taiwan itself has its own people - Taiwanese. To call my family Taiwanese would only be partially correct - from Taiwan, yes, my parent were (though I was not, born in the U.S. myself), but by no way do we even call ourselves Taiwanese or do others call us that. We consider ourselves Chinese, from Taiwan, simply separated by war and politics.

It would be akin to the division in Korea - almost everyone in America who is Korean is from South Korea. To call them South Korean would only be partially correct - yes, most of their parents/themselves came from S. Korea, but they're still Korean.

So to say somethings immediately, there are many misconceptions and notions floating around those on the outside looking in.

To begin with, the rift between China and Taiwan is largely a media and government play thing we like to hear about out here in the U.S./West. Yes, its a big part of politics in those two nations, make no mistake about it. But the idea that there is this distrust/hate between the two? No, not at all.

It has been 80 years since the original wars between the communists and the nationalists, 60 years since the end of WW2, and 56 years since the communists defeated the nationalists. My grandparents are old now, and time has healed many of the wounds. For one, direct flights between mainland China and Taiwan have been talked about and are going to resume after all these years. Other notes as well - up until Madame Chiang Kai-Shek's death, China every year held a compettion of students to write a letter in English to her, and the winners would be given a free trip to visit the U.S. The father of the Nationalist Party, Sun Yat-sen, is adored by both Taiwan and China.

Not only is there little animosity, indeed, much of Taiwan is now linked to China economically. You need only look at technology to see what has happened. Taiwan, in the 90's, boomed economically through the technology industry. Computers, chips, etc. were made in Taiwan. There was much talk of the 4 tigers/dragons in Asia among them Japan, Taiwan, Korea, and Singapore. Since then, however, Taiwan has been hurt by the technology bubble bursting, which we saw in the U.S.

Since then, companies in Taiwan have increasingly gone to China. Businesses have moved to China's ever-freer market. Manufacturing is going to China - cheap and abundant labor. Sales go to China - sell products to larger markets. My uncle, born in Taiwan, for instance has started a web-design and CD-manufacturing company in Shanghai.

This brings an interesting thing of note - beginning in the 60's and 70's, a larger and larger group of Asian peoples immigrated to America. We of course saw a large diverse amount. There were war refugees from Southeast Asia, which often made up the poorer immigrants from Asia. From Taiwan, many of the immigrants that came sought higher education in universities and colleges in America, and many of these immigrants originally had money, and quickly established themselves, taking much higher jobs. In the 90's, we saw a new wave of immigrants largely drawn due to the technology boom. With China opening up, we also saw some very poor and also some very rich immigrants from mainland China immigrate to the U.S.

But what has happened has been that Taiwan realizes that its independence cannot be maintained easily due to its own people. Not only has much of its young, best, and brightest moved out of Taiwan to around the world (including here), but also many have moved to China now to pursue capitalist gains in the growing market of China.

Google some articles that recently came up about the extremely low birth rates in Taiwan. Statistics show that 85% of married couples have to have at least two children to keep the population from falling in Taiwan. Long story short, its population is decreasing from a cominbation of people simply moving out to economic decline.

Some other misconceptions are that the people of Taiwan want independence. No, what has happened is that the politics involved have created a status quo, one where nothing is done because nothing happens, thus perhaps to the benefit as well as detriment of all sides involved. There is no clear cut majority in either fashion - instead, the political leaders have made their statements, made bluffs, called bluffs, and in the end, done just about nothing on either side.

From the 50's through 60's, U.S. forces were on Taiwan. In fact, my father learned his love of American music, such as the Beatles, Rolling Stones, and other bands through listening to American Armed Forces Radio beamed from the base. Heck, his family owned one of the first cars on the island buying a used Mercury from military men stationed there.

But as we saw, when the U.S. recognized the PROC, that meant the "One-China" thing kicked in and the U.S. removed recognition of Taiwan as an independent country. U.S. forces withdrew, and instead, left Taiwan in this position to this day.

What has happend of course is that there is this problem.

The people of Taiwan are a mixed bag - there are those who are native to China, aboriginals, and would probably want to see the Chinese from the mainland gone. There are those who call for independence. There are those who prefer reunification, citing economic gain. Others prefer gradual reunification, similar to what Hong Kong has, where its "One country, two systems."

As you can see, theres quite a wide range of thoughts on the issue, and to say they prefer independence or anything without knowing what the people believe, is at best hard to do. The government in Taiwan realizes this as well.

The Kuomintang (Nationalist Party - the right wing party in Taiwan) is part of the Pan-Blue coalition, which is more open to reunification than the Pan-Green colaition, which prefers independence. The Democratic Progressive Party (the left wing party in Taiwan) is part of the Pan_Green coalition. President Chen of Taiwan is currently of that party.

What is of note, however, is that when Chen came to power, the party has moderated its stance on China. It was thought to be very pro-independence and instead it has turned moderate on the issue, instead, preserving the status-quo. What has happened, actually, is that in legislative elections, the Kuomingtang and the Pan-Blue coalition did very well, holding a majority in the legislature.

So to simply say that Taiwan prefers independence is hard - they're split at best. Indeed, the fact that Taiwan's population is in decline, its economy as well as people are moving to China, there is growing reconciliation between once enemies (my grandparents actually lean towards reunification or are neutral at most), has pushed the pro-independence parties to seek actions that continue the status quo, to instead avoid any action.

What the U.S. and China has done in recent weeks and months is the old game of sabre rattling and bluffing. The idea that there was ever a military balance between just China and Taiwan is laughable - Taiwan relies on mandatory military service (a big reason why many of its best and brightest minds leave Taiwan early for college abroad to avoid service) and foreign aid (which is few and far now that China has much bigger economic power in the world). The only balance there would be if the U.S. was directly involved.

What is happening, however, is that the U.S. and China are playing a manuevering game of politics over a Taiwan that has little say in this affair.

Defense analysts and experts predict China to be on par with the U.S. military technologically within 20 years. Its Navy is projected to be larger than the U.S. Navy in 10 years. Its weapon systems have been designed to counter U.S. strenghts in technology, stealth, aircraft carriers, robots, and so on. Of course I cant say much about this because I dont live there, I doubt either country would tell their military secrets either

What is to be said on that is that Chinese analysts need only look at U.S. involvement in Afghanistan and Iraq to see doctrine, technology, and our military at work, and to plan ahead themselves. Though they're essentially neutral on our involvement in the Middle East, I get this feeling in my head that they're sitting back and chuckling a bit at us allowing ourselves to reveal and test our technology out there, for them to analyze and see.

I think, however, the biggest deterrent between the U.S. and China getting into a war within the next 20 years are our economies. We are so intertwined now that war would bring severe economic problems in the world. Too much is at stake between the country's companies, people, and militaries to risk it right now. Both sides have had their quarrels and problems, but both sides have done nothing.

I will tell you this though - my senses say that Japan and China are bumping heads again, and possibly in 10 years, may be at war. And when that happens, the U.S. will have to choose - stand with Japan, an economic giant in its own right, or China, an economic giant that will probably be a superpower as well. Then, we'll see what happens.

Please everyone, think about the situation rationally. No matter how much you might hate China, no matter how emotionally scarred from the Cold War you might be, please realize that military action between the US and China will not be a good thing.

Like it or not, China is a nuclear power and has the largest standing army in the world. It's navy and air force may not be up to snuff, but a serious conflict would result in heavy casualties on both sides. China does have missle technology that could impact both Taiwan and any carrier groups that the US might send to the area.

Aside from the sheer military casualties, the economies of China and the US are so intertwined that it would be economic suicide for both countries to engage in a prolonged battle. Think of all the "Made in China" stuff that you own, and realize that American companies invest heavily in Chinese subsidiaries. Like it or not, our two countries are tied in economic matrimony, a union that will probably last much longer than our life spans.

Realize also that China has close economic ties to Taiwan. It is naive to think that there is some sort of viceral hatred between the two countries. Hong Kong, being a huge banking center, undoubtly has banking intrests in Taiwan, and Taiwanese electronics manufacturers undoubtly have manufacturing plants on the Mainland. Suffice it to say, war just isn't good business.

Please look past the bullshit and see this for what it is. Sabre rattling and politics. Much like religion/gay marriage is used as a polarizing issue in the US, Taiwanese independance is used as a polarizing issue in Taiwan. Taiwanese politicians condem or condon independance to rile up Taiwanese voters, much like some politicians in the US point to the Ten Commandments or gay marriage to rile up voters here. In order to "save face", the Chinese buracracy must respond in kind. China, conciencious of it's first steps entering the First World, doesn't want to appear weak on the world stage. China feels that other countries won't take it seriously unless it responds to Taiwan, so they make threats of invasion. This, of course, plays right into the politician's hands.

In any case, invasion, and the consequences thereof, is not a situation anyone wants to be in. Not China, not Taiwan, and not the US. Please approach this tense situation with calm and rationality. Don't fall into the politicians' trap. Don't let them make this into a dividing issue. No matter who did what in the past, the reality is that it is the future we should be safeguarding, and military action in the region would lead to a bleak future indeed.

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bloodyjack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 01:24 AM
Response to Reply #34
35. I hate it when this happens
Edited on Thu Mar-10-05 01:24 AM by bloodyjack
Yes, I know several Taiwanese and mainlanders (some of my best friends are Taiwanese and mainlanders!!) and what little I've gleaned is that they regard each other as "pigs" (two guys, really: one who immigrated here approximately three years ago from Taiwan and got into a ridiculous spat with another guy whose parents are from the mainland around the time of Taiwan's elections last year...a very regrettable incident by all accounts). Anyway, it's an anecdote and not very much by way of a argument

Another thing I have observed, however, is that better adjusted Taiwanese and mainlanders, or first generation Taiwanese/mainlanders, have no deep-rooted animosity toward each other and can easily—as you put it—look past the bullshit, enjoy each other's company, love each other, et cetera.

edit: Nice post, by the way
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mog Donating Member (60 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #35
37. I have not seen Taiwanese/Chinese fight because of politics,
Edited on Thu Mar-10-05 10:45 AM by mog
but I have seen Chinese criticize Chen before the election. I am sure a constructive argument against Chen can be made, but usually what I see is some ad hominem attack verbatum from the media. Americans tend to oversimplify foreign politics. Even if the Chinese and Taiwanese have deep hatred for each other, it still doesn't mean US can use that to their advantage. Just as this administration thought they can use the Sunnis against the Shites, but soon or later, the Iraqis realize that they share more in common with each other than the Americans.
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 10:02 PM
Response to Reply #24
29. Just like WE live a free domocratic state? Look around....
...things have changed a lot since December 2000. I doubt seriously if it's much better in Taiwan.

And just what is our "obligation" to make sure Taiwan remains the way it is?

Should Spain suddenly get involved with Florida because they have an obligation to protect a free and democratic Florida?

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teryang Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #10
22. First modern fascist state?
Really?
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ConcernedCanuk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 05:29 PM
Response to Original message
17. Now wtf does the US think it can do???
.
.
.

They are STILL bogged down in a DEFENSELESS country of 20 million 2 years after *shock n awe*

WTF they gonna do to a well defended country of 1,300 million with NUKES??

not a f'ing thing

flappin' gums is all

The WH fecked itself the instant the first bomb hit Baghdad

IMO anyhoo . . .
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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 07:36 PM
Response to Original message
23. We send them our jobs and buy billions of their goods
why would we expect any differently? I just bought a toaster oven with all sorts of bells and whistles for $45. I would gladly have paid $150 had it been made in the US!(and I have little to spend to begin with....)
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lanlady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 07:58 PM
Response to Original message
25. China will bring down the US financial house of cards
without firing a shot, then move on Taiwan militarily. Within the next 10 years.
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Rainscents Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 08:07 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. I believe you are right on the money!
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #25
30. The Islamic countries started that ball rolling following the invasion....
...of Afghanistan. They accelerated the withdrawals of their investments following the invasion of Iraq.

If China pulls the financial plug on the US, stand by for a real bad ride.
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gordianot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #25
38. You have that one basically correct.
Only problem, is Taiwan worth it? We are the rice bowl, but how can you serve your rice without a bowl?

Our only hope is that Chinese megalomania does not match or surpass the megalomaniacs who are currently installed in positions of power in the USA.
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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 09:42 PM
Response to Original message
28. Now would be a good time to learn Chinese
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leesa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 10:40 PM
Response to Original message
32. Good. America has obviously become the bad ass of the world.
America NEEDS to have it's power taken away, they have abused it.
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