(Reuters) Bishop Calls for PM's Excommunication

[Up2Late]

Thu Mar 3, 2005 10:51 AM ET

TORONTO (Reuters) - The Roman Catholic Bishop of Calgary says that if it were up to him, he would consider excommunicating Canadian Prime Minister Paul Martin for his plan to legalize same-sex marriage. Bishop Frederick Henry said that Martin's politics clash so severely with his religion that the two cannot possibly be reconciled. "You're either with the (Roman Catholic) Church or you're not," said Bishop Henry during an interview with a Toronto radio station on Tuesday.

Bishop Henry has previously said that former Prime Minister Jean Chretien should be excommunicated for his role in bringing same-sex marriage to the forefront of Canadian politics. A spokeswoman for the Prime Minister's Office said on Wednesday that Martin is "deeply into the separation of church and state."

"His faith is a personal matter and it is very important," said Amy Butcher. "But he also believes deeply in the Charter of Rights and, as prime minister, he will act to uphold all rights, including the rights of religious institutions to practice their beliefs."

Martin has vowed to press ahead with legislation to permit same-sex marriage nationally, with a vote in Parliament expected later this year. Courts in seven of the 10 provinces and in one territory have already ruled that denying gays the right to marry is unconstitutional. The federal legislation would grant gays and lesbians the right to full civil marriages, but religious officials would not be required to marry same-sex couples.


© Reuters 2005. All Rights Reserved.
<http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=oddlyEnoughNews&storyID=7799155&src=rss/oddlyEnoughNews>

[Bunny]

1. I'd like to see another East West schism.

Or rather, I'd like to see the Church in the US and Canada break away from Rome. It would be nice to have a church that I could believe in, that could support my values. The one in Rome has driven me away, likely forever.

[4_Legs_Good]

7. I actually think I agree

Though I don't agree with the US Church all the time either.

Hmmmm...

david

[Bunny]

8. Well, I agree that the US Church hasn't always behaved in a

very Christ-like manner. (Evidence the pedophilia scandal.) But I think if the Church could come around to reflect more of America's sensibilities, it may see membership rise.

I'd like to see women ordained, I'd like to see celibacy requirements removed, I'd like more acceptance of the gay community, I'd like to see birth control not only accepted but embraced.

I would not expect the Church to turn around and approve of abortion, but I would like to see it reduced to a misdemeanor sin, so to speak.

[4_Legs_Good]

12. Sounds good to me!

The problem is there's a large right-wing constituent in the American Catholic Church as well. I'm concerned about the attempt to fuse Chruch and State and the whole anti-Kerry movement last year.

The #1 issue as far as I'm concerned (well, probably) is birth control. Our primitave current teachings are absurd and reflect such an infantile view of sexuality, as well as a complete neglect of the human condition (and exploding population) that it's really rediculous.

As far as abortion goes, it doesn't bother me that the Church teaches that it's wrong so much is that the Church tries to enforce it's fundamentalist notion that human life begins at conception on everyone. A "respect life" attitude is great, but let's lead by example not by fascism.

Anyway, I like your ideas! Let's hope either for this or for a truly progressive pope in the mold of John XXIII once JPP2 moves on.

david

[Bunny]

13. Yes, the rightward migration of the US Church is a reflection

of the current American psyche, apparently. We can only hope that once the hate-mongers are removed, we can swing the pendulum back to reflect true Christ-like values.

Until that day...

[Kixel]

15. Woah...

I am a Catholic, and I think people need to separate a few things. I should preface this by saying that I am a flaming liberal in my political views, but very conservative in my religious views.

Abortion is murder in my eyes, and I can't imagine it ever being seen as a venal sin. I am not saying it should be illegal, and I am not saying that I think those who have an abortion should go to hell, I just don't think it should be embraced as a minor sin. I know and love many women who have made that choice and I don’t judge them, that’s not my job.

The simple fact is, the church should be allowed to have it’s own views on how things run. I am not saying that I agree with all aspects of the faith, but to suggests it’s core values should change…well, that’s just not right. If you want to be a member and don’t like things, join and try fighting for a change from the inside.

This is not meant to be an attack, but I am very frustrated by people who assume the church should change all of its ideals to suit the mainstream. I am not saying reform is not important, but people need to realize that some of us are fighting on many different fronts. It’s not easy when our allies forget that a lot of times Christians are bound by both the Constitution and by the bible. One will not replace the other, and we can not forget that we have a right to believe different things as long as we respect eachother.

[Bunny]

16. Actually, I don't need to separate anything.

And frankly, IMO the Church is going in the wrong direction - to the extent that I would never re-join it as it is now. If they could make some drastic changes, it may better meet my spiritual needs and I could see rejoining. But, as it stands now, neither I nor the Church is losing any sleep over it. It does not miss me and I do not miss it.

Re: abortion as a lesser sin. I was taught by my former priest that you could shoot a store clerk dead, with premeditation, and be forgiven for it if you truly repented. No such absolution would be forthcoming if you had an abortion. Explain the difference to me.
Perhaps level of sin was the wrong phrase, I guess what I'm looking for is the same level of absolution. I don't understand how one is "worse" than the other. :shrug:

[xchrom]

22. are modern day jews going to hell?

[davidinalameda]

2. didn't realize that the Bishop had his own personal MP

and thank you Bishop Henry for once again giving the anti-religion people even more fodder

[whosinpower]

3. Pay attetntion Bishop

Nowhere does the law require you BY LAW to marry two individuals that you do not want to marry. Each church still has its own independance whether or not to marry same sex couples.

And I am sorry, BUT find it more than slightly hypocritical of an institution that has blinded itself for decades over child rape by priests. So don't go talking the high talk when you can't even control the sexual urges of many of your own priests.

[Clark2008]

4. But all those priests aren't excommunicated for raping children?

This makes no sense!

[Maple]

5. Rome does not run Canada

and it is an insane move on the part of the RC church, to promote the idea that it does, or should.

It's rebuilding all the anxiety and hate that JFK had to fight in order to get elected.

[sniffa]

6. oh no! if martin gets excommunicated

he'LL have to find another church to give his money to. :cry:

[northzax]

9. time for a schism

it's about time we had a new pretender Pope just to make life more interesting.

heck, the North american Episcopalians are on the verge of getting the boot, why not the Cathlolics as well?

[regnaD kciN]

10. Bishop calls for everyone's excommunication...

:eyes:

[Selteri]

11. Bishy Bish needs to do more research into his own religion.

For instance, homosexuality was wrong in the OT, in the new Testament it wasn't DIRECTLY bad unless it was homosexuality to worship another god or false homosexuality for prositution. Just the translation is too complicated from greek to english since love/sex is generally painted with a broad stroke.


I've seen the translations and used a proper dictionary to be able to tranlate a lot of the passages... Oh well, never let the facts get in the pay of hate I guess.

[JerseygirlCT]

14. With us or against us.... hmmm where have we heard that before?

[applegrove]

17. But the church cannot excommunicate because they need their members.

If they were so pure they would ex-communicate all those who use birth control. And I haven't seen too many 14 kid families amongst my Catholic friends.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

18. This is why so many DUer's attack religion!

You see why! I as a Catholic have blind furor with the church right now! The SOB's who covered up the child RAPE scandal are now telling us what is moral? :wtf:?

[Spazito]

19. The bishop and the Catholic church have as much

credibility on 'moral' issues, given the abuses committed and hidden by the church, as the bush admin's castigating other countries about human rights abuses.

I am a former or 'lapsed' Catholic because of this kind of hypocrisy.

[autorank]

20. So comforting, this pseudo Christian comfort & understanding.

Er, uh, Bishop whats-your-name, did you also call for the excommunication of the Catholic priests who were caught molesting minors? Oh, really, didn't think so. Give me a break.

[daleo]

21. Taken to its logical conclusion, non-Catholics couldn't vote for Catholics

Or at least not for pious Catholics, as their fear of excommunication would render their neutrality on political issues unreliable. Does the Catholic church really want to prevent Catholics from being elected in areas where they don't constitute a majority?

This is one of the real, practical problems with mixing religion and politics.

[Wat_Tyler]

23. My local bishop, Fred Henry at it again.

Sad really. The real tragedy is that he is quite progressive on economic and other social issues. That of course is the tragedy of the Roman Catholic Church today.