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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-05 05:24 PM
Original message
Defying U.S., Venezuela's Chavez embraces socialism
Edited on Fri Feb-25-05 05:33 PM by IndianaGreen
Having to choose between the barbarism of capitalism and the humanity of socialism, Chavez chose socialism, thus Chavez has established himself as the Venezuelan Salvador Allende. The die is cast!

"We have to invent the socialism of the 21st century," he added.

Each country defines its own socialism, which is not the bureaucratic autocracy that Stalin implemented in the Soviet Union. A Socialist America, for example, would preserve the best aspects of the American spirit while sweeping away the instruments of oppression and exploitation (not to mention doing away with the Imperial Army).

Defying U.S., Venezuela's Chavez embraces socialism

Friday, February 25, 2005 Posted: 4:12 PM EST (2112 GMT)

CARACAS, Venezuela (Reuters) -- Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez on Friday embraced socialism as his ideology of choice in a political statement that sharpened his antagonism against the United States.

Chavez, a firebrand nationalist who has governed the world's No. 5 oil exporter for six years, has persistently declined to define the precise ideology of his self-styled "revolution."

But, addressing an international meeting on poverty in Caracas, he said Western-style capitalism was incapable of solving global economic and social problems.

"So, if not capitalism, then what? I have no doubt, it's socialism," said Chavez, who also rebuffed U.S. criticism of his left-wing rule in Venezuela and denounced U.S. President George W. Bush as the "great destabilizer of the world."

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/americas/02/25/venezuela.chavez.reut/index.html
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woosh Donating Member (383 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-05 05:33 PM
Response to Original message
1. I get the sense
he's a little sore about the assination news he got from Castro.
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colonel odis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-05 05:34 PM
Response to Original message
2. well, that just put another tool in the right-wing toolbox. "we have to
protect amurka from socialism, raht hyeer in the western hemispheer!"

as though his fate weren't already sealed, i wonder if chavez just put the final nail in his own coffin.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-05 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. You can kill the man, but you cannot kill an idea
There are more poor people than ever, and those fortunate enough to have a job, have to invest a lot of time and effort just to subsists. America's wealth is an illusion, built on the backs of workers and peasants throughout the world. There are more of them, than there are SUV owners!
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robcon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-05 05:41 PM
Response to Original message
4. It's sad for Venezuela.
The discredited socialist ideology means Venezuela will reamin behind most of the hemisphere, IMO.

Ask India if socialism works.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-05 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. India is not socialist
If it were, you wouldn't have the extreme poverty that exists there, and you wouldn't find the religous exploiting the poor in order to fund their religious enterprises.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-05 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. I thought India was kicking butt these days, outsourcing and all that. nt
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David__77 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-05 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. I have come to believe that some kind of social ownership is inevitable.
It's obvious. The atomized productive ownership cannot last--there is an inherent contradiction between social production and individual appropriation. It will take centuries, but a more progressive world will surely be born. Chavez is definitely making the right decision.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-05 06:12 PM
Original message
Land reform is critical in countries such as Venezuela
The neolibs of PPI and the neocons of PNAC will scream at the top of their lungs in defense of property rights, ignoring that we are talking about absentee land owners that own most of the land and exploit (and sometimes murder) the peasants that till their fields.

One of the biggest landowners in Venezuela is a member of the British Royal family!

Land reform is the first step to social justice in Latin America.
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On the Road Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-05 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. No, No, the Average Working in Venezuela
is AHEAD of the hemisphere. It's probably a better place to be in the bottom half of the population economically.

Think about this: Venezuela's oil is an enormous national wealth. Who benefitted from that wealth before? Who is benefitting from it now?
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manic expression Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-05 06:16 PM
Response to Reply #4
12. The socialist states in India are doing very well
There are some socialized parts of India, and they are doing very, very well. The thing is: they are small and they have all the natural resources they need. This is what helps socialist communities function.

You are greatly mistaken. Socialism works very well in India (this coming from someone who's actually been there).
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Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-05 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #4
18. No, I think I'll ask Sweden instead. (nt)
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Blue_Tires Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-26-05 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #18
52. roger that
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Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-05 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #4
25. Behind the US on health care and education?
I doubt it. It would be hard to be more backward than the US in those endeavors.







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dutchdemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-05 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #4
26. I would say Social Democracy works fine
In Europe and Canada.

Venezuala has tremendous amounts of wealth which is currently held by around 2 percent of the population. I know, I have been there. There's no reason to see people live in the poverty that exists in that country. And the same goes for Brazil where Lula is carving a similar path. I know, I was just there for six months.

You still see Red when you see "Socialist"? It's a strange reaction methinks. I see America moving towards the division of wealth imbalance of Brazil and Venezuela and I see those two countries moving towards the very well balanced division of wealth in Europe.
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Blue_Tires Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-26-05 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #26
53. i agree
the unbalance of wealth in the U.S. is only getting worse
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davsand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-05 10:15 PM
Response to Reply #4
28. India must not suck too bad--all our jobs went there...
You might want to learn a bit more about Socialism before you moan and fret for those "poor folks" under Chavez's leadership. Don't just buy into the old scary image put out back when McCarthy was around.

Seems to me that the idea of single payer health care and adequately funded schools is not too ugly. I kind of like the idea of every citizen having being an equal partner too...


Laura
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aneerkoinos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-05 10:21 PM
Response to Reply #4
30. Yes
Go ask Kerala, compare it to other states of India.

US has done a perfect job in discrediting capitalism, proving right Marx' prediction that fascist corporatocracy is the inevitable next step.
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NuttyFluffers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-05 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #30
34. i was about to mention kerala, thanks!
it would do one good to compare it to the other states of india.
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Say_What Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-05 10:31 PM
Response to Reply #4
31. Venezuela's Agrarian Land Reform: More like Lincoln than Lenin
<clips>

• Land Reform is the traditional third rail of left-of-center governments and social reform movements.

• President Hugo Chavez’s plan is fundamentally different from other Latin American attempts at land reform. The proper historical parallel is President Lincoln’s Homestead Act.

• Chavez’s opponents, who see him as “another Castro,” wrongly view his agrarian reform program as a total assault on private property.

• Land Reform is one of the most progressive aspects of Chavez’s “Bolivarian Revolution” as it seeks to alter the fundamental power structure of the landed versus the landless, reduce Venezuela’s dependence on foodstuff imports, and redress the country’s disastrous experience with the “Dutch Disease.”

• The government should concentrate more on shoring up the agricultural base of the public lands it already has distributed to peasant cooperatives, rather than draw a premature bead on private lands.

more...

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/articles.php?artno=1384

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aneerkoinos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-26-05 12:24 AM
Response to Reply #31
37. Solon
What an evil socialist that Solon guy too, founding father of Athenian Democracy, whose first act was land reform and freeing many people from debt slavery...
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-26-05 07:16 AM
Response to Reply #31
48. There should be an assault on private property
The notion that anyone has the right to privately own anything that "was not made by the hands of men" is an ethical abomination, not much different from asserting the right to own slaves.
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WMliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-05 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #4
33. India isn't socialist.
Their economy was the model used by Latin America for ISI. Only recently have they become proponents of free trade, but they never swayed from good ol' exploitative capitalism.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-26-05 06:45 AM
Response to Reply #4
47. Works fine in Kerala
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-26-05 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #4
51. Why India? They're America's new friend. Like Iraq was in 1983.
India is getting US help in the form of jobs. Taken from US citizens.

When will the US learn that it can't be isolationist when it helps other countries that eventually TURN ON the US? duh.
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K8-EEE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-26-05 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #4
56. What Do You Do When The Top 10% Own 65% Of The Country?
Edited on Sat Feb-26-05 02:18 PM by K8-EEE
That's BushCo's wet dream what they really mean when they say "ownership society" they want everyone else in debt to the corporations.

Some places, like Bolivia, you'll find 10 families that own practically he whole damn country. How is that "capitalism" or "freedom" for the rest of the people that live there, they are only slaves.

Both socialism and capitalism need common sense regualation, beware the ideologists who use think either system needs to be "pure." They're working an angle.
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paritom Donating Member (121 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-26-05 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #4
57. What works?
Ask America if capitalism works!
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GHOSTDANCER Donating Member (550 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-26-05 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #4
58. Whats the rush??
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Vladimir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-28-05 07:59 AM
Response to Reply #4
64. Oh no! Not the discredited socialist ideology!
Lions and Tigers and Bears OH MY!
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-05 06:03 PM
Response to Original message
7. Compare CNN's hysterical headline with Prensa Latina's
This is in Spanish, but here is a recap: The Prensa Latina headline is "It is impossible to combat poverty with a capitalist model." Chavez attacks neoliberalism in the story, and states that capitalism cannot address the problems of poverty, misery, and inequality.

Con modelos capitalistas es imposible combatir la pobreza, Chávez

Caracas, 25 feb (PL) El presidente de Venezuela Hugo Chávez señaló hoy que en el marco del modelo capitalista es imposible superar el drama de la pobreza, la miseria y la desigualdad.

El Jefe de Estado aseveró que no sólo la deuda externa impide el desarrollo de los países, también la falta de unidad de acción que permita revertirla en beneficio de las grandes mayorías excluidas

Chávez defendió al Socialismo como el único modelo con el cual se puede superar la tragedia de la pobreza en América Latina y reiteró que con el capitalismo esa misión es imposible.

El mandatario tuvo a su cargo el discurso de instalación del IV foro multidisciplinario organizado por el Parlamento Latinoamericano (Parlatino) sobre la Deuda Social, que concluirá el domingo 27 de febrero.

Chávez reiteró sus críticas al neoliberalismo capitalista y propuso renunciar a él y a su concepción de desarrollo sustentable a la que acusó de enloquecer al planeta.

http://www.prensa-latina.org/article.asp?ID={B17A4DED-093F-46F8-828A-8431E5B0C24D}
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-05 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Andale. And I could never espouse an "ism", too independent
Edited on Fri Feb-25-05 06:13 PM by sfexpat2000
but, compare and contrast Bush and Chavez, just to get a handle on what is going on NOW between these two leaders.

/yearly apology for dyslexic spelling
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formerrepuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-05 06:14 PM
Response to Original message
11. The communist block is rebuilding..thanks to GWB
..if the alternative is to join us (and fight for oil). Maybe W can re-start the cold war as well.
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David__77 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-05 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. There is no "communist bloc," but there is an imperialist bloc.
China, Cuba, Vietnam and other socialist countries are independent countries standing on their own feet in the world. The US tries to turn others into vassals and rains death on all those who resist. I only hope that there will be no fascist coup attempt--if there is, the Venezuelan people must wage sterm struggle to obliterate it.
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formerrepuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-05 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Well, I meant there is a "communist bloc" in the sense that
there is an "axis of evil" (sarcastically-speaking).
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stepnw1f Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-05 06:47 PM
Response to Original message
15. Good for Them!!!
Beats fascism (formerly, Capitalism allowed to thrive within a Democracy).
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JanMichael Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-05 07:00 PM
Response to Original message
16. Viva Chavez!
You know even if one doesn't particularly like (Not refering to myself...) the idea of Socialism you have to admire the passion that it builds in people.

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OKthatsIT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-26-05 01:31 AM
Response to Reply #16
40. Viva Chavez!
Socialism is no threat. Its being humane and conscious of the people's needs. It doesnt reject capitalism. It works with capitalism.

In fact, if we(usa) dont wake up to this understanding, then we should be condemned. Isnt this precisely why we're all going to hell in a hand basket?
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aneerkoinos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-26-05 01:46 AM
Response to Reply #40
42. Umm...
Yes it does (reject capitalism). That's kind of the whole point about socialism. (Modern European social democratic parties can be hardly called socialist, they are fully into the privatizing mania.)

What socialism doesn't reject is utilizing market forces for the benefit of whole society in certain contexts, under certain conditions.
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Selatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-05 07:03 PM
Response to Original message
17. Chavez seems great, but he must worry about concentrated power
He needs to devolve that power back into the communities and into the hands of everybody rather than hold it vested in his seat of power. That kind of concentrated power can do a lot of good in the hands of the right person, but it can be devastating if it falls into the hands of tyrants. The power the White House has today is a good example of what concentrated power means in the wrong hands.

This is why I have become a supporter of libertarian socialism over state socialism be it democratic or authoritarian. I think socialism is good, but it must be accomplished in a way that avoids concentration of power and enhances individual liberty and autonomy at the same time.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-05 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. The power has already been devolved to the communities
Socialism is built from the bottom up, and Chavez established the Bolivarian circles several years ago. Its members are the workers and peasants. Its enemies are the elites.

Bolivarian Circles: A Grassroots Movement

Tuesday, Sep 30, 2003

By: Alvaro Sanchez


Indeed, Chavez's political platform included the following points: the restructuring of the Venezuelan political system, participation of the State in state-related matters, fair distribution of income, the fight against corruption, and perhaps the most importantly, accountability of lower levels of government as well as active grassroots political participation for community improvements. Both the Venezuelan and international media did a poor job of presenting the true meaning of these grassroots organizations.

Taking part on this grassroot movement are the groups known as Bolivarian Circles, named after Venezuela's independent hero: Simon Bolivar. Endorsed by the Venezuelan President and supported by the majority of the population, Bolivarian Circles grouped community leaders and neighbors alike. They worked hand in hand in order to make ends meet at various shantytowns, neighborhoods, and villages across Venezuela.

For instance, instead of waiting for the President, or another high authority or power of the government, to arrive at Barrio La Palomera, near Baruta, Miranda State, neighbors and community leaders, mostly women, went ahead and organized themselves to secure a badly needed medical supply dispensary. In addition, they worked together on the beautification and clean up of La Palomera. By the same token, Bolivarian Circles across Venezuela began an extensive social and political activism intended to aid the usual disenfranchised population of Venezuela. Other Bolivarian Circles, for example, concentrated their work and efforts on feeding the hungry, providing after school care for poor children, securing resources for small businesses, etc.

President Chavez did has done a lot to provide the means and resources necessary for grassroot movements such as the Bolivarian Circles to be able to help themselves. Thus, the Venezuelan National Assembly, with the support of the President, passed legislation and appropriated funds for the creation of a line of credit available for small businesses, particularly those owned by low-income Venezuelans, women, Native Americans (Indigenous), and other minorities.

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/articles.php?artno=1026
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Selatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-05 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. Impressive, but I'd push him to strengthen the grassroots further
if possible. The movement should be autonomous to the point where if Chavez is assassinated or even his whole government is "decapitated," the movement will not collapse in chaos or falter but simply continue without missing a step. I'd dare say it should be to the point where the people themselves would be able to self-govern indefinitely without a functioning central government if it got that bad. It must be done to ensure against the reversal of these changes due to corrupt opportunists and corporatists gaining office several decades from now championing something like privatization or an "ownership society," code word for taking something that doesn't belong to anyone and giving it to private interests at everybody else's expense.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-05 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. The Bolivarian Circles could form the backbone of a People's Militia
Chavez should arm and train the people so that they can repel any foreign invader. A well armed Venezuelan citizenship will neutralize the elites, prevent a military coup, and scare the shit of our own military by turning Venezuela into a country sized Fallujah.
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NickB79 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-26-05 12:14 AM
Response to Reply #22
35. Holy crap, you want citizens to organize their own militias?
What are you, some kind of 2nd-Amendment-loving, right-wing gun nut? <sarcasm>
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aneerkoinos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-05 10:32 PM
Response to Reply #21
32. Umm...
>>>The movement should be autonomous to the point where if Chavez is assassinated or even his whole government is "decapitated," the movement will not collapse in chaos or falter but simply continue without missing a step.<<<

What do you think happened during the coup attempt? ;)

I'm sure there's allways room for improvement, but I'd say people of Venezuela have proven themselves quite well... :)
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-05 07:26 PM
Response to Original message
20. U.S. diplomats here complain... requests for meetings... are turned down
"U.S. diplomats here complain their requests for meetings with government ministers are turned down."

perhaps because we tried to overthrow their gov. :shrug:

of course that relevant piece of recent history gets left out by our M$MW

peace
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-05 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #20
24. The poor babies ;)
Just makes your heart weep doesn't it?

:hi:
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-05 08:25 PM
Response to Original message
23. That's my guy! Viva, viva Chavez Frias!






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charlie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-05 10:07 PM
Response to Original message
27. "Defying" US?
What kind of fucked up headline is that? How can Chavez "defy" a foreign power that has no rightful say in his country's governance?
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Say_What Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-05 10:18 PM
Response to Original message
29. Just more BOW TO UNCLE SAM OR ELSE BULLSHIT
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Imperialism Inc. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-26-05 12:17 AM
Response to Original message
36. Visit AxisOfLogic.com for some great Venezuela articles recently.
I posted this earlier on a another thread but seems worthwhile to repost. An Axis of Logic editor just returned from Venezuela and this is the first of a series of commentaries he is writing.


TOUCHING THE REVOLUTION
http://www.axisoflogic.com/artman/publish/article_15785.shtml

Conventional Arms Threat Reduction Act (CATRA)

Last night, after returning from Venezuela, I read with new comprehension when I reviewed new U.S. legislation sponsored by Richard Lugar, Chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee in Washington. Washington is calling the legislation the Conventional Arms Threat Reduction Act (CATRA). The new act would create an office in the U.S. State Department for the purpose of eliminating small arms around the globe and particularly in Latin America. This ambitious move in Washington is clearly conceived - at least in part - as a response to Venezuela's recent arms purchase from Russia and other Venezuelan foreign policy.

A Deadly Game

Marcela Sanchez, writing for the Washington Post, is one member of the corporate media who is playing "running back" for the quarterback - Lugar. It's not a new play - only the revision of an old one. Lugar fades as though he still has the ball, but has already handed off to Ms. Sanchez who cuts down-field toward Venezuelan territory with CATRA tucked deceptively under her arm. But there are bloody designs behind Lugar's play and the stakes for the entire western hemisphere are very, very high.

On February 17, 2005, Ms. Sanchez dutifully wrote, Disarming Latin America (also en espanol) on behalf of the U.S. government's new intrusion into the domestic affairs of The Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela. She lays the foundation for her argument by attempting to justify Lugar's design on Venezuela's domestic affairs with this:

"Senate Foreign Relations Committee Chairman Richard G. Lugar, who helped write the 1991 law that has since deactivated more than 6,500 nuclear warheads from the Soviet arsenal, is turning his attention to stockpiles of conventional weapons around the world."

The design that underlies this play is transparent even to the casual reader: The U.S. cannot make any credible claim that Venezuela has "weapons of mass destruction" as it did in Iraq, so it is beginning to weave a new lie. The new deception is that conventional weapons now comprise the threat to the U.S. and to "others". Sanchez continues:

"Lugar is sponsoring legislation known as the Conventional Arms Threat Reduction Act (CATRA) that would establish a separate State Department office with funding 'commensurate with the risk posed by these weapons' to lead 'an accelerated global effort' to eliminate them."

Eliminate them? Eliminate conventional weapons world wide? Why is "the Lugar" suddenly launching this new offensive? If he is to believed, his conscience has apparently - and suddenly - developed a new compassion for brown people who have been killed by handguns and rifles in Latin America ... and he has a woman named "Marcela Sanchez" to carry the ball to readers of the Washington Post. Ms. Sanchez explains:

"It couldn't be timelier for Latin America. Nowhere else are these weapons more lethal than in Latin America and the Caribbean. The number of firearm homicides in the region is 'five times higher than the world average' ..."
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aneerkoinos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-26-05 12:33 AM
Response to Reply #36
38. Priceless
"It couldn't be timelier for Latin America. Nowhere else are these weapons more lethal than in Latin America and the Caribbean. The number of firearm homicides in the region is 'five times higher than the world average' ..."

I wonder if the hundreds and thousends of union activists, human rights activists, organizers and members of social movements murdered yearly by right wing paramilitaries, on behalf of CIA and US Corporations, as well as even more numerous victims of the US imposed drug war, are included in those "homicide" numbers...?
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reprobate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-26-05 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #38
54. "on behalf of CIA and US Corporations,"....There's nothing new about this.

Since 1890 the United States has invaded Latin America fifty two times for this same reason.

I call it 'Predatory Capitalism'.
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chlamor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-26-05 12:45 AM
Response to Reply #36
39. Great article-thanks
Insight into the world of dignity and hope.

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter.

Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

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Jamison Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-26-05 01:45 AM
Response to Reply #39
41. Props to Chavez...
for having the balls to stand up to the shrub.
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GetTheRightVote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-26-05 01:57 AM
Response to Original message
43. India is killing our economy, sucking our jobs right out of here
and into their own country, they are one of the reasons so many are unemployed in the USA.

:kick:
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aneerkoinos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-26-05 02:06 AM
Response to Reply #43
45. OK, let's nuke India!
That's the attitude, blame it allways on somebody else, no need for any damn deeper analysis that might lead to the suspicion that oneself has made some serious misjudgements and is now reaping the sow...
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Vladimir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-28-05 08:08 AM
Response to Reply #43
65. Well you made the rules...
they are just playing the game.
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dameocrat Donating Member (220 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-26-05 02:03 AM
Response to Original message
44. I think this article maybe misleading
He probably specified social democracy, and no one should have any problem with that.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-26-05 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #44
55. There is bourgeois democracy and there is socialist democracy
Bourgeois democracies are controlled by the ruling classes with an occasional nod to the working class. Workers are made to feel grateful for what little morsels they get, such as a modest increase in wages. In socialist democracies, all the power resides on the workers and peasants. The principle is simple: if the workers can organize, they can run a factory. If they can run a factory, they run the country.

Who made the corporations successful? Was it the capitalists? No, it was the workers that came out with innovation and ideas. It was the owners that profited from the labor of the workers.
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d_b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-26-05 05:05 AM
Response to Original message
46. Oh come on, Chavez.
They aren't going to assasinate you. They promise.
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aneerkoinos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-26-05 07:32 AM
Response to Original message
49. Excellent article on Venezuela

Latin America: In Defense of the Venezuelan Revolution

http://narcosphere.narconews.com/story/2005/2/24/10158/7421

(too long and informative to do unjustice to the rest of article by taking out any paragraphs.)
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ButterflyBlood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-26-05 11:11 AM
Response to Original message
50. Viva Chavez!
If only all world leaders could be like him!
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AngryWhiteLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-26-05 04:39 PM
Response to Original message
59. So, it's not democracy that we're fostering...just pro-capitalism.
HEY CNN, YOU FUCKING REPUKE MEDIA WHORES, SOCIALIST COUNTRIES CAN BE DEMOCRATIC!!!!

JB

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Charles19 Donating Member (353 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-28-05 08:46 AM
Response to Reply #59
66. It's ok in Europe, just not this close to the U.S.
All countries in North and South America were created to serve the master, right?

How friendly this administration deems other countries has a lot more to do with them being pro capitalism than democracy or freedom.
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Chicago Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-26-05 05:31 PM
Response to Original message
60. Viva Chavez!
Patria o Muerte!
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Dirk39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-28-05 03:09 AM
Response to Original message
61. I just hope and pray, it will work
Edited on Mon Feb-28-05 03:13 AM by Dirk39
Hello from Germany,

I just hope and pray, it will work and this democracy will not be destroyed by the U.S.A., their think-tanks, their fashist CIA, their green-velvet-orange-revolutions and their weapons.

And I just hope, different from Allende, Venezuela will fight back with every weapon they can find.

And I hope the leftists in Europe and the USA will not be as cynical, naive and idiotic as they were during the sixties and later: this is not about petit-bourgeois-dreams, this is about health-care, food and a roof on top of your head.

And if they have to fight, I hope they will fight, and I hope they will use every weapon available.

Dirk


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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-28-05 07:36 AM
Response to Original message
62. Sunday was the anniversary of "El Caracazo" (massacre) by Carlos Andres Pe
Edited on Mon Feb-28-05 07:40 AM by Judi Lynn
the corrupt, and later IMPEACHED President of Venezuela against whom Hugo Chavez led a coup, later to be pardoned by another of Venezuela's Presidents.

Most Americans have never heard of this massacre, nor of the corrupt, vicious President, Carlos Andres Perez, who enjoys the friendship of George H. W. Bush to this day, and who is also close to the coup "President for a day" Dubya tried to push into place in that overthrown coup attempt in April, 2002.
Published: Sunday, February 27, 2005
Bylined to: Franz J. T. Lee

University of Los Andes (ULA) professor Franz J. T. Lee writes: Sixteen years ago -- a day like today. Within the context of the current international disinformation campaigns, and the ideological preparation for another US attack on Venezuelan sovereignty, it is imperative to remember the "El Caracazo" of February 27/28, 1989. In 1989 ... under the government of Carlos Andres Perez ... as a result of an attempt to implement well-known savage "neo-liberal" measures of the International Monetary Fund and the World Bank in Venezuela, Caracas and other cities were shaken by heavy popular protests.
(snip)

Thousands from the barrios, already ruined by the "Black Friday" of 1983, had no alternative but to appropriate the very results of their exploited physical labor forces, the consume goods of capitalism, that is, they began to sack shops, and to grab anything that they could get hold of. Like in the case of Victor Hug's "Les Miserables" and Frantz Fanon's "Wretched of the Earth," skinny mothers, seeing their innocent children dying of hunger and sickness, broke into bakeries, appropriated their daily bread, and were shot dead, by the State, in defense of capital, capitalism, of national and international private property of the means of production, that was guaranteed by the very Venezuelan Constitution of 1961.

Spontaneously, unorganized, unarmed, this popular movement stormed the business bastions of the Cisneros, Mendozas, Capriles and others in Venezuela. The repressive forces of the previous Adeco-Copeyano State violently repressed these legitimate, popular protests. Till today, we do not know how many thousands were really massacred; official government figures estimated barely 500 dead; later, in old oil wells, hundreds and hundreds of maimed corpses were discovered.
(snip)

How much the subjective factor of the Bolivarian Revolution has recovered from the traumatic shocks of February 27/28, has conscient-izes itself, it demonstrated in the defense of its social gains, between April 11-13, 2002. Within 47 hours, together with the armed forces, and loyal, helping Latin American States, like Cuba and Brazil, the awakening sovereign, the people, in a paradigmatic, modern class struggle, reverted a "sure" military coup, orchestrated by Washington D.C., into the greatest fiasco of US foreign interventions. February 27-28. 1989, is the turning point in modern Venezuelan history, it is really the political birth of Hugo Chavez Frias....
(snip)
http://www.vheadline.com/readnews.asp?id=25914



"El Caracazo" February 27, 28, 1989.


Photo of the former President Carlos Andres Perez, impeached for corruption, in 1989 with Ford and Carter.

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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-28-05 07:46 AM
Response to Reply #62
63. enezuela issues arrest warrant for former President Carlos Andres Perez
Published: Saturday, February 26, 2005
Bylined to: Jonah Gindin


Venezuela issues arrest warrant for former President Carlos Andres Perez

Venezuelanalysis.com Jonah Gindin writes: Perez was President of Venezuela from 1974-79, and 1989-93 ... he has been living outside of Venezuela in various locations since 1993 when he was impeached on corruption charges, though he has continued to play a peripheral role in Venezuelan politics.

On February 27, 1989 Perez announced the “Great Turnaround,” a harsh structural adjustment package increasing prices for basic necessities and gasoline, sparking spontaneous protests and riots. Though the angry crowds were compared to ‘one of the less civilized tribes of Africa,’ by one pro-government legislator for the widespread destruction of private property, looters reportedly also distributed basic necessities to elderly barrio residents and single-mothers.

‘Plan Avila,’ was implemented by the National Guard and various police agencies to restore order, and resulted in an official toll of 327 dead and 1,831 wounded. Independent estimates, however, have placed the death toll as high as 2,000, including the many who remain disappeared.
(snip)

However, in a statement to the press earlier this morning Attorney General Isaias Rodriguez, noted that police have yet to locate the former President. “We don’t know if he’s in Costa Rica, the Dominican Republic, or the United States,” said Rodriguez, adding that once Perez’ location is determined they will deliver the warrant via Interpol.

Perez’ last foray into Venezuelan politics was in an interview with Venezuelan daily El Nacional, given from Miami last July, just a month before Chavez beat a recall attempt against him with 59% of the vote. In the interview, CAP acknowledged that he is “working to remove Chavez .” “Violence will allow us to remove him,” said CAP, adding that Chavez “must die like a dog, because he deserves it.”

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