Laser aimed at Chicago-bound jet

[mountainvue]

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/01/03/laser.aircraft.ap/index.html

Federal officials investigating latest in series of incidents
Monday, January 3, 2005 Posted: 7:22 AM EST (1222 GMT)


NASHVILLE, Tennessee (AP) -- Federal officials are investigating an incident in which a laser beam was aimed at a jet after it left Nashville International Airport bound for Chicago.

Pilots of a United Airlines flight heading to Chicago's O'Hare International Airport on Sunday reported seeing a green laser beam shortly after takeoff, said United spokeswoman Robin Urbanski.

The flight, which had about 30 people on board, landed safely in Chicago.

The FBI said it's investigating the incident along with the Transportation Security Administration and the Federal Aviation Administration.

[benburch]

1. Why all these green lasers???

An IR or a UV laser would be better from a blinding-the-pilots point of view.

When you are looking into an IR laser and it is destroying your retina you sense no pain and see no light and so your blink and aversion reflex does not occur. This would certainly occur to any terrorist.

[seasat]

3. IR and UV would experience greater attenuation.

Green has the lowest attenuation. IR would would be rapidly absorbed by atmospheric water and UV would scatter more.

[frustrated_lefty]

41. 2 mile range, nifty gadget:

From the manufacturer:

"The first laser pointer that projects a brilliant GREEN beam from one end and a high-power RED beam from the other end. The GREEN beam is just as bright as other green pointers, range up to 2 miles in darkness, wavelength 532 nm. The green laser beam (not just the dot) is visible at night. The RED beam is the most powerful red laser allowed by the FDA, range 4000 ft in darkness. Power output <5 mW."

thinkgeek.com

[Mr_Spock]

50. I wonder if it's something like that?

I've shined those laser pointers onto buildings a half-mile away - it's kinda fun actually. Some smarty probably made a bigger version and is thinking it's all real funny.

[goodboy]

53. probably not...they'd need tracking equipment and probably a bigger

laser that could be widened to envelop the cockpit,.

[KurtNYC]

2. Just a guess - this is some kind of blackmail scenario

Like someone showing that they could hit planes with something laser guided so they want the laser noticed?

[rocktivity]

4. How did they KNOW it was a laser beam?

And is it realistically possible to see one from thousands of feet up?

:shrug:
rocknation

[benburch]

7. Only a laser beam can do this...

A monochromatic light from the ground bright enough to be blinding in a cockpit at 8000 feet simply has to be a laser.

And yes, I've shone a red HeNe laser onto the side of a building 8 miles away, and was clearly able to see the spot with binoculars.

[Just Me]

14. 8 miles away,...but not 8000 feet up,...

,...how the hell could anyone on the ground do that,...with the tracking and angling that would be necessary? :shrug:

I really do not know what to make of these reports but I definitely do not buy into a "kiddies gettin' lasers for Christmas" proffer.

[Jesus H. Christ]

25. Um, well, light isn't very heavy you know.

So I'm guessing it would be much easier to travel 8000 ft straight up than 50,000 ft horizontally.

But this stuff about using it to blind pilots is bullshit. I"m guessing the authorities are worried about SAMs and the blind pilots thing is a cover story.

[benburch]

35. Not that hard, really.

Well within the capability of a larger amateur telescope and mounting system to be able to sight-in and aim such a device. If you have a tiny amount of computer skill, you could automate the slew rate control considerably.

[Just Me]

36. *LOL* Really,...do tell. That way we can put this all to rest, yes? n/t

[benburch]

37. Well, here is the deal...

When at a distance of 8 miles, an aircraft actually moves very slowly in terms of degrees of motion per second, and it moves in a very predictable way.

If your 8" consumer telescope has a sturdy mounting, and if you have controllable slew rate, it is not too hard to get an aircraft in the eyepiece and keep it there for a while. Try it.

Now, if you have mounted the laser on the telescope, and its aim lies within the field of the eyepiece, you can use its reflection off the target to refine your aim and shine it into to cockpit. Note that you have to be ahead of the aircraft and something like 30 degrees to port or starboard to be able to shine a light into the cockpit. as aircraft these days don't have much of a view straight ahead, and none to the sides or behind.

[Just Me]

39. Oh, good grief.

Stop teasing me!

[DoYouEverWonder]

46. 8 miles away with binoculars?

what the hell kind of binoculars exist that can see a dot 8 miles away?

[Massacure]

49. Human eyes can see 10 miles on a clear day at even elevation.

If your on a building looking down, you can see even further. Binoculars should be able to magnify a dot pretty easily. It wouldn't be so hard to spot a laser at 1,000 or 2,000 feet (40x or 20x magnification) wouldn't be such a hard thing to do.

[satya]

5. Anyone else think the neocons are setting the stage for 9-11 Part II?

2001: * is out of the way, on vacation, NYT about to announce that Gore really won the election...

These lasers would have to be fired from the air to enter the cockpit, wouldn't they?

:tinfoilhat:

[meegbear]

8. Something's up ...

odd how the MSM announces that it could happen and then suddenly, it's all over the place.

[AngryOldDem]

18. Not much into tinfoil theories....

...but I must admit that what you posted has been rattling around in my head since this shit started to happen.

Especially if there is indeed a big challenge to the election in the offing.

I put NOTHING -- and I mean NOTHING -- past these bastards.

[FreeCajun]

20. 01-09-05 RIP democracy. I see it coming.

[conflictgirl]

57. On the one hand, I can see it that way

But on the other, it just seems like it would be way too obvious. Like too many people would call bullshit on it because we've been set up with the warnings. I'm putting it more in the category of raising the alert level from Bert to Ernie.

But perhaps I overestimate the intelligence of the average American.

[thecrow]

6. Clue me in here...

How far can a green laser go?
Is it getting into the cockpit by going through the metal of the airplane, as in it is coming up from underneath? Or is it being beamed up from far far away? I would think that others would see it, too, not just the pilots....???

[ThoughtCriminal]

10. Through the cockpit glass is possible from ground

Especially after takeoff or on landing approach. I the pilot can see the ground, a laser can be in the line of sight.

[livinginphotographs]

9. May I be the millionth DUer to call bullshit on this whole laser thing.

This stunk the minute I heard about it.

[SmokingJacket]

13. Explain? What's the stink?

I haven't been following the story at all.

Seems like people might be having fun seeing how far they can shoot their lasers -- like paintball or something. Can just anyone buy a laser?

You see how ignorant I am.

Is there a tinfoil version of the story?

I love tinfoil.

[livinginphotographs]

21. There's a difference in my laser pointer

Which I can probably shoot half a mile, and being able to pinpoint a pilot's retina from 10,000 feet, from the ground.

I'm not saying it's a CIA psy-op to convince us that Elvis is still dead or something, but I really am skeptical of the official line on this.

[mountainvue]

22. It is certainly being publicized a lot.

It's not specific to any one area. It has certainly piqued my curiousity.

[wtmusic]

19. The "blinding the pilot" scenario

is nonsense. They are worried it's some kind of tracking device, or a sight to a high-powered rifle.

[Tracer]

11. Call me skeptical on this one.

The difficulty of accurately aiming a laser into a pilot's eyes in a moving airplane seems obvious. The angle is all wrong (especially "shortly after takeoff"), the distance is to great, the target is moving too fast.

This is either a copycat story or a copycat attempt.

[MindPilot]

12. Terrorists drive with brights on!!! Headlights aimed at other cars!

Latest reports from the American Automobile Association suggest that terrorists are attempting to blind oncoming motorists with "ultra-blue" high-output headlamps.

In other news, terrorists used a laser beam to disrupt a showing of "The Incredibles" by projecting a small red dot on the screen. Homeland Security Officials searched the theater but found no explosive devices.

Gee, it it just possible that the pilots are looking down and seeing a laser beam that may simply be aimed up?

[purduejake]

58. Pilots rarely look out the side windows...

especially at that altitude where they are usually very busy preping for landing.

edit: I believe the plane was at 8,000 feet.

[ThoughtCriminal]

15. Another Clancy novel MO

I forgot which one. U.S. agents use an ultra-bright spotlight to down several Japanese AWACs that are on landing approach. In a different book of the same series, a Japanese airliner is deliberately crashed into the Capitol. Wonder where these ideas come from?

[Solon]

16. Wow, somebody actually tried it...

and it didn't work did it? Whoever thinks that terrorists would think this would crash planes must think they have the IQ of Forrest Gump. I mean, seriously, shit like this I'm sure happens, but the idea that it is seriously a danger is like saying the me shooting a pellet gun at a freight train will stop it. Stupid is as stupid does.

[Dukkha]

17. Green laser beam?

Could it be?

[THUNDER HANDS]

23. wasn't there a superhero that shot green lazer beams?

green Hornet or some other guy, had a magic ring or something?

[Massachusetts]

24. Hang on for the ride good citizens,

Dr. Evil and the Neocons are still plotting.

Where's Mighty Mouse when you need him?

[w4rma]

26. Some folks on this board are so afraid of things they don't understand.

Just because you don't understand it yet doesn't mean it isn't true or that it isn't happening.

The FBI is investigating this because pilots have observed this and have been blinded by this.

The simplest answer is that it is true and these folks are telling the truth and there isn't a grand conspiracy where all these folks are LYING. Think about that. For you to wave this off as a tin-foil hat conspiracy theory means that you support *another* conspiracy theory where everyone here is lying.

Who is really wearing the tin-foil hat?

[Just Me]

27. There does seem to be resistence to explore how, who and why.

I don't doubt the pilots,...at least, I haven't been given any legitimate reason to doubt the pilots' reports.

Assuming they are reporting the truth about their experiences, I am curious HOW it could happen, WHO is doing it and WHY they are doing it.

[Chimpanzee]

31. Has anyone seen a pilot talk about this - or is this second party

[Just Me]

38. One gave a statement concerning the damage to his eyes. n/t

[SheepyMcSheepster]

47. keith olberman

had a pilot on who was the president/head of some pilot's association. i am not sure of the specifics, sorry.

but the pilot basically said that he believed this was much more than a prank, that who ever is doing this would have to have some decent equipment and actually know what they are doing.

i will see if there is a transcipt on the countdown site.

edit: here is a link to the transcript the person being interviewed is Captain David Mackett, president of the Airline Pilots Security Alliance.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6782098/

[Chimpanzee]

54. I meant one of the pilots that supposedly got lasered.

[Coastie for Truth]

28. High Tech Welders Goggles

Back in the deep dark days of the Cold War, there was serious concern that a nuclear blast would blind the bomber crew members. There was a lot of work - in the US and East Germany - on "photo-chromic" goggles that would switch from "transmitting" to "blocking" fast enough to prevent blindness, and gradually "decay" back to "transmitting"

Once the work was declassified there was some experimental work on using the particular glasses and dye compositions for high tech welders goggles.

The problem was that the "decay" back to "transmitting" was too slow, and got slower with each use (techies call that "hysteresis" ).

But, all of that work is probably stuck in the cobwebs of the NTIS and in some lab at Wright Patterson AFB - where the US work was done.

[sidpleasant]

30. re: High Tech Welders Goggles

>>all of that work is probably stuck in the cobwebs of the NTIS and in some lab at Wright Patterson AFB<<

Actually, it's available over the counter at Home Depot. Several companies make welder's helmets with lenses that darken automatically in 1/25,000 of a second.

[steely]

29. Small green laser pointers are available for use

by amateur astronomers from places like Discovery.com for $100.
These models are safe (FDA), and are brighter than the red versions of the same power. They are used as teaching aids to point out constellations/asterisms, or for collimation (scope tweaking), and can go about a mile.

I just post this FYI.

[don954]

32. If they were serous about hurting aircraft, they wouldnt be using

a green laser-pointer, they would be using something like this:

Laser Gun - A prelude to a weapon of the future - the technology is here! Now Available - hand held, battery operated, 500 joules of pulse energy produce an intense burst of light capable of burning holes in most materials.
This is a dangerous Class IV laser project and requires initial purchase of plans including our hazardous equipment affidavit that must be signed before purchase of the actual system.

* Input Voltage: 12VDC @ 1.5AMPS, 20-30sec. Charge Time
* Rod: 3X1/4" Nd:GLASS With Integral Mirrors
* Output: 3 Joules @ 1.06 Microns Infra Red
* Storage Capacity: 270 Micro farads @ 2 KV
* Flash lamp Energy @ 1000 Volts: 135 Joules, @1500 Volts: 300 Joules
* Single Colimnatting Lens
* 120 to 150 Shots From Internal AA Batteries
* Certified Class 4 Laser Product
<img src="">
Lab Assembled with Rod & Flashlamp.......................................$1749.95


and using the green laser as an aiming device, with a scope.


Since they are evidently not, I have to assume this is some type of hysteria from HomeSec.

[mainer]

34. I just bought one for my husband, in fact

He's an amateur astronomer, and lasers come in handy when pointing out to other people which constellation you want them to focus on. i suspect that the "laser assaults" are in fact just geeks standing around in their backyards, gazing at the stars, not realizing that their beams happen to hit airplanes passing through the sky.

Not that my dear hubby is a geek or anything!

[Johnny Noshoes]

45. If they keep running these stories

If they keep running these stories how much do you wannna bet that sometime soon everyone who buys and or owns one of these laser pointers will have to register it. Either that or the purchase record will go to Homeland Security.


"When you trade your values for the hope of winning, you end up losing and having no values....so you keep losing." Howard Dean 2004

[purduejake]

59. It is not a prank or accident.

You can see airplanes tens of thousands of feet above, let alone at 8,000 feet! Plus how do you explain a laser accidentally tracking the plane?

[oneold1-4u]

33. Ignorance is such bliss!!!

I never was much concerned about the computer age until my grandson built and gave me one! Now I may well be on my way to obsolescence, but I do know that light is a powerful existence which we so take for granted. It is the creation! Without it there would be nothing!
Perhaps one day, it's great power will be truly harnessed.
Think: if all our powered machines and electricity itself came from light we would not be in the mess we are in today, dependent on oil from terrorist breeding nations.
I am glad that I was in the century of Einstein who never stopped thinking of thousands of possibilities.
My favorite Einstein quote: Two things are infinite-the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not completely sure about the universe.

[DownNotOut]

40. its real easy

to point one of those 'futuristic' mystery devices and a low flying airplane and scare a bunch of sheep (I mean constituents) isn't it. Watch it.... Bush is behind this farce too.


DownNotOut

[txaslftist]

42. Wasn't there some sort of huey during the campaign...

about this? Didn't some reichwing official or group or some such suggest that lazers could be used to shoot down airliners, and then talk about how they needed like, a billion dollars to control this?

I know I heard something and at the time I thought, gee...sunglasses might be cheaper...

Anyone Google this or remember this more clearly?

[MisterP]

43. Syrian ecoturrsts!

Big Brother Banana Breath needs an excuse to let himself be dragged by Sharon into attacking the doubleplusungood Baathists in Eurasyria

[Medium Baby Jesus]

44. FBI: Terrorism not behind laser beam incidents

OMG there is a news story about this! They must have read this thread and decided to back off the terrorism angle. Good work people. Now if only we can convince the msm that roveco caused the tsunami.

http://www.indystar.com/articles/7/206638-9247-010.html

:silly:

[The_Casual_Observer]

48. Quite a feat to target the inside of cockpit of a plane

from below. I imagine you would have to be quite a distance on either side in order to have a view of the windows, unless the plane was very close to the ground.

[spanone]

52. I agree. The angles don't make any sense. Doubting.

[Thor_MN]

55. Consider if the the plane is on approach to land

If the pilot can see the runway, the ground from the end of the runway to the horizion is also visible - meaning there is a direct line of sight from pilots eyes to the ground and necessarily from the ground to the eyes of the pilot. If you are also in line with the runway, the apparent motion of the plane is very small. It is getting closer to you quickly, but since you are in the line of it's travel, it's only changing slowing in elevation. Go stand near a runway and watch the planes coming in some time - they hang there forever, just getting bigger.

Consider also that the beam can be made to diverge slightly - it takes excellent optics to keep this from happening. The 3 mm spot of light at two feet could be a 50 foot spot at several miles if you want.

Third point is what is being talked about is the laser being visible, which takes much less energy than making a visible "spot" on the plane. The pilots can see the runway lights can't they? Why wouldn't they see a laser directed at them? You can see flashlights for miles if you are looking at one directed at you.

My opinion, that it is entirely possibly to shine a laser that is more powerful than a laser pointer at a landing plane from somewhere beyond the departure end of a runway such that the pilot is able to see it for several seconds. I don't know if it would be possible to blind them and think that the "Laser light can blind or disrupt yadah yadah" statements in the articles are more a generality saying that a laser can blind you and are not specifically saying it's possible from 8 miles away.

So, yes, I think at least some of the reported events have happened, and that it's possible some flight crews might like a day or two off with disability pay. No offense meant to any pilots, I'm sure that most are a better crowd than some of the people I've worked with, but I do know people that would be first in line to say "My eyes!!! I'm blind!!!" and "Thank god there was no permanent damage!!!" after a week off with pay....

[mainer]

51. These are geeks, people! Harmless geeks!

This is not terrorism. These are probably harmless amateur astronomers using their green lasers to point out areas of interest in the sky to other geeks as they point their telescopes toward the sky. My own husband has a green laser (which he asked for for Christmas) so that he can show our guests what they're looking at as he focuses his telescope. You non-astronomers have no idea how many of these people there are in the U.S. with their giant Celestron telescopes. All you have to do is pick up an issue of Sky and Telescope to understand these guys. There are even hotels dedicated to these sky nuts, places where they can go and stay up all night looking through their eye pieces. They're harmless and nice guys. (most of them are guys, anyway.)

And FYI, Sky and Telescope is sponsoring a cruise to Libya in 2006 to watch the total eclipse of the sun. Anyone else interested? We're already booked on it. Come join us. No one else we've invited wants to join us in Libya.

Now watch the FBI come after us because we own a green laser pointer and we're booked on a trip to Libya!!!

[Thor_MN]

56. I've always wanted to see a total solar ecclipse!!!

My family thinks I crazy - I had a chance to see a comet a few years ago on the way back from Vegas. My sisters and brother-in=law wouldn't let me sit by the window. I begged them to trade, but they stuck me be myself in the middle section. They didn't care about it at all. I got up mid flight and asked if the could see it. they glanced out briefly and said "Nope." I gave up, used th bathroom and sat down. After we got our luggage and were getting into the car, they started talking about it seeing it. I asked why they didn't tell me and was told "We didn't think you were that interested..."

Bro-in-law is a freeper BTW. If he wasn't generally good natured, I'd have tough time putting up with some of his RW radio driven concepts.

[purduejake]

60. Yea, real harmless.

They only ruin people's careers. No big deal. How can you say it is not terrorism if you don't even know what else could be out there besides geeks?

[clem_c_rock]

61. And maybe there's the possibility that this is utter bullshit?

I mean come on. This story is about as pathetic as the latest Osama tapes. When are we going to start realizing that 95% of this terror shit is made up. We buy this crap and look how easy we are ready to do anything they say.

Why don't we start reviewing the Gulf of Tonkin incident and maybe Operation Northwoods, and maybe the burning of the Reishtag.

Nothing scares any government more than public opinion and they will stop at nothing to make sure the scales don't tip away from them.