Major firefight erupts outside of Fallujah

[NNN0LHI]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20030911/wl_mideast_afp/iraq_firefight&cid=1514&ncid=1480

FALLUJAH, Iraq (AFP) - A major firefight erupted west of the flashpoint town of Fallujah with reports of several US troops wounded after an American convoy broke down, an AFP correspondent and witnesses revealed.

They said that gunfire and mortar fire was exchanged for more than an hour Thursday in the town of Khaldiyah, 30 kilometers (19 miles) west of Fallujah, after masked gunmen attacked the stalled convoy with rockets.

The US military said it had no immediate reports of a firefight in the vicinity of Fallujah, a Sunni Muslim bastion 50 kilometers (30 miles) west of Baghdad.

Witnesses reported seeing American soldiers severely wounded but there was no official report of casualties.

more

[Brucey]

1. Oh, yes, and don't forget that major combat

has ended.

[grytpype]

2. But Rummy said these "incidents" are over in minutes!

Another lie to throw on the pile.

[caledesi]

12. I hear that pile of shit and almost kicked the TV screen.

His lying on Jim Lehrer made me sick. :puke:

Jim had this strange half-smile on his face saying "I don't believe a f*cking word out of your mouth."

[caledesi]

13. Another piece of lying shit by Rummy.

I felt like kicking the screen when he was lying about the "incidents are over in minutes." Jim Lehrer had this half-smile on during the entire interview which said to me "I don't believe a f*cking word out of your mouth."

[0007]

26. I heard Rumsfield on the Jim Lehrer News Hour

say the same thing. I wondered about it, and then came to the conclusion that if the attackers stayed any longer it would be
suicide. I don't think the attackers can compete with air power and tanks.

Rumfield didn't sell himself to well with Jim Lehrer. When Lehrer ask Rumsfield about border control, Rumsfield said,
anyone caught coming across the borders, "we scoop 'em up and kill 'em." We're in complete control. I couldn't believe
he would say something like that.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

3. Did you catch the last paragraph?

<snip>
The incident came a day after US troops shot dead one Iraqi policeman and seriously wounded another when a bomb struck their convoy on the outskirts of Fallujah, according to a senior Iraqi police commander.
<snip>

I thought the Iraqi Police were "re-trained" by us and on our side... Could someone associated with reporting of the facts in Iraq have lied about something?


Feel safe.
Ashcroft watches over us all.

[plcdude]

7. pretty darn

scary how did you do that.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

8. I'm not the creator, but it was done with MacroMedia's Fireworks

[RapidCreek]

23. It is done with a fairly simple PHP script

The reason it shows as a fireworks doc when you check it's properties is that the script redirects via htaccess, after it's printed your information to a randomly selected image document. In this fashion the .php script can be hidden behind a firworks doc, .jpg, .bmp, .png, etc. etc.

RC

[MaineDem]

19. Ummmm

Should I be concerned you posted that info?

Duhhh, we each see our own info, right? I'm sometimes not too computer savvy.

[RapidCreek]

27. Yes, exactly!

RC

[burrowowl]

25. Cool!

I like the character for the Mac better, more colorful.
How do you do this?

[RapidCreek]

28. If he told it would spoil all the fun!

heheheh. You can figure it out....realy, you can....do a little detective work.

RC

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

33. go here....

You can customize your own.



http://www.danasoft.com/

[grytpype]

4. DON'T FORGET TO VOTE THIS A --5--

[Beetwasher]

5. WTF? We're shooting Iraqi Policemen?

"The incident came a day after US troops shot dead one Iraqi policeman and seriously wounded another when a bomb struck their convoy on the outskirts of Fallujah, according to a senior Iraqi police commander. "

:shrug:

That's not good, not good at all...

[Trajan]

6. This is awful ....

Some Iraqis lie in wait for ANY opportunity, ... The US soldiers dont DARE even stop .....

FUCK ! ....

I dont care WHICH side of the war question we are: .. Those soldiers are OUR sons and daughters ....

This is a fucking nightmare ....

[NNN0LHI]

9. Every Iraqi killed by the USA is someones son or daughter too

Try not to forget that. And the Iraqi people did not cause this fucking nightmare either. We did.

Don

[Trajan]

10. Agreed ....

I mean there are the 'bad guys' who DO attack our soldiers gratuitously and opportunistically .... and even though Im against the policy for war and unilateralist intervention in Iraq as promulgated by our PNAC government, I am also QUITE concerned about our boys and girls there who do NOT write policy, but only follow orders ....

OUR soldiers are NOT happy to be there: they are miserable and cannot wait to leave ..... its GEORGIE'S fault ... not theirs ...

I do agree: ... innocents iraqis MUST be safe in their person and property .... and our soldiers have no right to harm them without direct cause ... they must behave honorably and with strict discipline ....

Either way: ... MY nephew is there ..... and I am worried sick for him ......

I hate this shit .......

[markses]

17. Your "Innocent Iraqi's" v. "Bad Guys" distinction is incoherent

If you treat the US soldiers as "innocents" who are only following orders (in other words, if you evacuate them of any independent moral judgment), then you must also treat the Iraqi resistance as soldiers who are following orders, albeit the compulsion comes indirectly from the US/UK collonizing forces and their state apparatus. The notion that they "willingly" attack the Americans (who have invaded their country) while the Americans are innocent pawns is partisan and absurd. The moral failure of the Iraqi resistance is no more marked than the moral failure of the US soldiers. In fact, the moral right may be on the side of the invaded, since they are merely reacting to an initial criminal action (the invasion). Needless to say, that ANYBODY has to die for this despicable colonial adventure drenches the hands of the Bush Administration in blood. Nevertheless, one cannot, without incoherence, absolve the US troops for following orders and wanting a different situation, while simultaneously condemning the Iraqi resistance, which surely would rather have a different situation than Western colonial dominance thrust upon them from a stronger outside force!

Either they are ALL innocents, thrust into the situation by the initial moral wrong of the Bush Administration, or they are all equally culpable, for failing to uphold the highest moral law, and caving to the outside forces (the US government/law in the case of the soldiers, the desire to react and resist an invasion in the case of the Iraqi resistance). You can't have it both ways.

[Trajan]

20. Wrong ....

It is one thing to invade and occupy a nation ....

It is a whole other issue to lift a weapon, and point it at the head of someone who is NOT directly threatening your safety ....

Though I completely disagree with the supposed justification for this action .... the orders given soldiers to 'direct traffic' or 'protect infrastructure' are NOT inherently unlawful orders ....

There are OTHER ways of protecting one's homeland from invading forces instead of sniping them: ... popular dissent, nonviolant action, and other tactics promoted by Ghandi et al ....

By the SAME token: .... US soldiers have an obligation to adhere to international law at all times ..... they may NOT haphazardly harm any citizen in Iraq without justification ......

That said: .... lets admit that ALL people have 'bad people' and 'good people' ....

WHY would we deny that some Iraqis are bad ? .... are their ANY nations that have citizens who are 100 % good ? ....

Is there ANY state where citizens ALWAYS do good things and are NEVER immoral ? ...

To say that there are NOT 'bad people' in Iraq would be a ludicrous assertion .....

By the SAME token: ... some soldiers ARE bad as well: .. they shoot without justification ... taking the lives of innocents without cause ..... this is also wrong ....

There is no morally relativistic acrobatics here: .... its really quite simple .... the invasion was wrong, but it does not follow that ALL immoral action by either side is justified by this fact: ..... there are other choices that can be made in response to provocation, and they should be MORAL choices ....

EACH man is measured by HIS actions ..... this is a stable moral position .....

[DrWeird]

22. Uh, that's exactly what we've done.

Our troops have lifted weapons and pointed it at the head of every single iraqi even though they have NOT directly threatened our safety. There have been tens of thousands of iraqis needlessly killed. And since we're the ones who've started this mess, they're the ones who have been using violence in self defense. And to paraphrase Malcolm X, I wouldn't call that violence, I'd call it intelligence.

[NNN0LHI]

24. Are you suggesting that the Nazis would have left France if the...

...French had protested? Or the USA would have left Vietnam if the Vietnamese had protested? Or the British would have left America if our forefathers had protested? Think about that for a moment.

Don

[Trajan]

32. The Nazi's left France ...

When France was liberated by an alliance of troops formed through international consensus .... NOT because the French were 'winning the war' against the Nazis on the streets of France by shooting young german soldiers may not have actually hurt or killed ANYONE ....

I had a long response written, and just now junked it .... I want to keep this short ....

I simply advocate a peaceful resolution to the problems faced by ordinary Iraqis, and we should expect ALL parties to act only with moral justification ....

It is JUST as wrong for Iraqis to kill non threatening US Soldiers as it is for US soldiers to kill non threatening Iraqis ....

Morality is universal .... it applies to everyone .....

MOST reports we now receive from US soldiers is that they are exasperated by this misguided mission in Iraq, and DONT agree with their leadership on the merits of the case for war, MANY are Democrats, MANY are family .... it ISNT their fault they are there, and they shouldnt be considered fair game as targets of revenge because it was George Bush who started his fucked up war and illegal occupation ... it isnt their fault ....

[Cappurr]

34. Trajan...

I know where you are coming from. Trust me, there is no-one more anti-war than I. I've seen it up close and personal.

The problem is that once we are in their country there IS no peaceful solution. Would you sit down and make coffee for men in uniform that invaded your home or would you do anything and everything in your power to get them out?

[NNN0LHI]

29. Just found this. Here is where protesting got them.At least 16 dead Iraqis

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20030911/wl_mideast_afp/iraq_unrest&cid=1514&ncid=1480

<snip>Anti-American feeling has run high in Fallujah ever since US troops killed at least 16 demonstrators in late April.

more

[Dhalgren]

11. That's right, Don.

We (I include myself here) all too often see all this godless mess in a purely one-sided fashion. More Iraqis are dying everyday than are Americans. We have to keep our damned focus, here - not a national tragedy, but an international one; not and American nightmare, but a Human one.

[HereSince1628]

15. Welcome to the war of resistance

"Some Iraqis lie in wait for ANY opportunity"

You know the Iraqis live there. They go about their lives, and take advantage of opportunities. It is the nature of resistance movements that are part of occupying a hostile population.

[NNN0LHI]

16. The French Resistance turned it into an art form during WWII n/t

[Divernan]

14. Privatize vehicle maintenance = breakdown = sitting ducks.

Wouldn't you think these vehicles would be tuned up and serviced to the max? We'll never know why this vehicle "broke down" or who failed to provide the proper servicing to it.

[donsu]

18. was thinking the same as you

nt

[tom_paine]

21. More Accidental Deaths

Ministry of Truth and Enlightenment Reports 12 Amerikan Soldiers killed "accidently by running into bullets when their convoy broke down near Fallujah."

Which of course, cheapens the deaths of those soldiers in a way only someone who had complete contempt for their "Cannon Fodder Units", could pull off.

Which of course is the defining characteristic of the Bushevik Imperial Family.

[ozymandius]

30. Is this sarcasm?

Or did an authoritative report declare twelve dead at the scene of the attack???

Gotta link?

[htuttle]

31. Coverage from Aljazeera

US convoy ambushed at Fallujah


Photo: The burning remains of a convoy, but no US fatalities have been reported

Several US troops were wounded during a major skirmish west of the Iraqi city of Fallujah when resistance fighters attacked a military convoy.

Witnesses quoted by AFP said on Thursday that the convoy had stopped when one of its vehicles broke down in the town of Khaldiyah, 30km west of Fallujah.

Gunfire and mortar fire were exchanged for more than an hour, after masked men attacked with rockets.
  
The same witnesses reported seeing American soldiers severely wounded but there was no official confirmation.

(more +iraq summary at link)
http://english.aljazeera.net/Articles/News/ArabWorld/US+convoy+ambushed+at+Fallujah.htm