Colombia nervous as Chávez buys weapons

[oldhat]

http://news.ft.com/cms/s/caf2767e-423f-11d9-8e3c-00000e2511c8.html

Colombia nervous as Chávez buys weapons
By Andy Webb-Vidal

Concerns are growing in Colombia over what is being seen as a creeping military threat from neighbouring Venezuela, as the government of President Hugo Chávez steps up an arms procurement programme.

Colombian legislators have summoned President Alvaro Uribe's defence and foreign ministers to appear before Congress in the next few days to be questioned about the risks to the country posed by Venezuela's armaments build-up.

At the end of a visit to Moscow last weekend, Mr Chávez said his government would take delivery of 40 helicopters from Russia, and he had agreed to buy 100,000 semi-automatic rifles.

The move is expected to be followed by Venezuela's acquisition of a fleet of the most advanced model of the Mig-29 fighter jet. Reports in recent weeks suggest Mr Chávez wants to buy as many as 50 Mig-29 SMT warplanes.

Venezuela's arms build-up is of concern to the rightwing Mr Uribe and his armed forces, who are engaged in a campaign to defeat the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (Farc), the country's largest insurgent army.

The Colombian army is strongly supported by the US and its troops are vastly more battle-hardened than those of Venezuela. However, the Colombian army would be loath to divert valuable resources away from its counter-insurgency campaign towards stepping up national defence in the face of a perceived threat from Venezuela.

[HuckleB]

1. So let me get this straight...

The US's bought and paid for, self-serving government of Columbia, a government that could give a rat's ass about its people is worried about Chavez buying a few weapons to protect his country when the US decides to find an excuse to invade in order to install another puppet government?

Very interesting.

Rover Rove is working overtime now that the election is over.

[oldhat]

2. It's agreed!

50 MiG 29s, 40 helicopters and 100,000 assault rifles are now "a few" weapons!

All hail the great peace-loving Chavez and his arsenal of weaponry!

[HuckleB]

3. And how much have we given to Columbia's dictatorship?

How much have we promised them in "protection" so that we can continue to "guarantee" loans to them to provide projects for US companies? It's time to see the whole of the world. Please take a look. Thank you.

[Must_B_Free]

50. How dare he defend his nation?

weapons are only for the US and Israel... Everyone else is a terrorist.

[leesa]

67. That's right. No one is allowed to defend themselves against the US, er..

I mean Columbia. If the US wants something YOU have, you are expected to just hand it over without a fight. They are just building another bogus case...like Saddam's WMDs and Iraq's nukes. Pure BS and purely a reason to invade for oil.

[Minstrel Boy]

4. Good, I hope Colombia is nervous.

I've been smelling a US-sponsored proxy war against Venezuela in the near future, as Bush's Plan Colombia from Outer Space to derail Chavez and Bolivarian democracy.

The border is tense, and the trouble is from Colombia's side.

From September

Seven Venezuelans Die in Ambush on Venezuela-Colombia Border
Sat Sep 18, 2004 01:50 AM ET
CARACAS, Venezuela (Reuters) -

Six Venezuelan soldiers and an oil engineer were killed when an armed group attacked a military patrol and state oil company employees near the border with Colombia, Venezuela's defense minister said. Gen. Jorge Garcia Carneiro did not identify the attackers but Venezuela's armed forces have clashed in the past with Colombian left-wing guerrillas and right-wing paramilitaries entering from the neighboring country.

Friday's attack was one of the most serious incidents reported recently on the volatile border between the two Andean countries. Another soldier and a civilian engineer were injured in the clash, which took place near the border village of La Victoria, 25 miles from Guasdualito in the southwest state of Apure.

Venezuela rushed troops and armed helicopters to the area to try to capture the attackers, whom Garcia called "terrorists."

[HuckleB]

6. Exactly.

Venezuela has been on Bush's radar from day one. He wants US corporate control of it and its oil, just like Columbia and Panama and Iraq and Saudi Arabia and Ecuador and and and....

[oldhat]

7. Good! What the world needs is more violence and machine guns!

And you'll be bravely cheering on the Venezuelans peasants who will get their legs blown off in this war like a chubby bourgeois fashion leftist sitting in a dorm room!

[IndianaGreen]

8. I'll be cheering when the Uribe government is overthrown

and the Caracas elites are forced to flee to Miami.

Viva la Revolucion!

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[IndianaGreen]

12. actually I don't

about your hero Uribe:

In 1997 and 1998, alert U.S. Customs agents in California seized three suspicious Colombia-bound ships that, the agents discovered, were laden with 50,000 kilos of potassium permanganate, a key "precursor chemical" necessary for the manufacture of cocaine.

According to a document signed by then-DEA chief Donnie R. Marshall on August 3, 2001, the ships were each destined for Medellín, Colombia, to a company called GMP Productos Quimicos, S. A. (GMP Chemical Products).

The 50,000 kilos of the precursor chemical destined for GMP were enough to make half-a-million kilos of cocaine hydrochloride, with a street value of $15 billion U.S. dollars.

The owner of GMP Chemical Products, according to the 2001 DEA chief's report, is Pedro Juan Moreno Villa, the campaign manager, former chief of staff, and longtime right-hand-man for front-running Colombian presidential candidate Alvaro Uribe Vélez.

http://www.narconews.com/narcocandidate1.html

[HuckleB]

So when Bush and his puppets attack Venezuela...

it would be better for the peasants to be unarmed, while the bombs come down around them?

[AP]

11. So the US makes life uncomfortable for countries like VZ and when they try

to set up a defense, we criticize them for setting up a defense.

Man, that's certainly having your cake and eating it. It's kind of Orwellian in its circularity.

[Minstrel Boy]

14. Just the stark reality of BushWorld.

A government on the neocons' hit list is suicidal not to arm itself. And the Venezuelan republic will be defended by Venezuelans.

No cheering. It's preposterously sad it has to be this way.

[AP]

23. And if Carmona were Prez, they'd still be buying weapons. Except they'd

be buying them from the Carlyle Group.

[WyLoochka]

65. The Venezuelans should

just sit there doing nothing and let the US, by right winger Columbian proxy, de-stabilize their country so the US can come in and steal their oil?

Various countries arming-up is a wholly predictable outcome of the aggressive, pre-emptive, law breaking, my way or the highway, maniacs using the US government apparatus to pillage and plunder resources for personal gain all over the world.

The "peasants" should save their legs and just hand over their countries to BushCo?

Seems we have an "appeaser" here.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

83. Not nervous. Frustrated.

That it may be harder to follow Bush's order when he tells them to "liberate" Venezuela.

THIS IS SELF-DEFENSE! VENEZUELA IS NOT GOING TO INVADE ANYBODY!!!

[VivaKerry]

5. God damn bullshit propaganda!!!!!!

Rove is QUICK!

Uh, since when has venezuela become an aggressor. They have their hands full just defending themselves from bush coup attempts.

This IRES me to no end.

[oldhat]

10. "Ires" isn't a verb! Try "irks"!

[daleo]

13. U.S. has given Colombia plenty of weapons

"Between 1989 and 1999, the United States exported over half a billion dollars worth of weaponry to Colombia..."
http://www.fas.org/asmp/profiles/colombia.htm

I am sure Bush has given them plenty more since 2000.

I doubt that Venezuela has any designs on Colombia. They just want to defend themselves after witnessing Iraq.

[HuckleB]

16. Exactly. There's nothing to be gained for Venezuela by such an attack.

It's absolutely preposterous for anyone to feign concern such as this. However, an attack by Columbia as a US intermediary into Venezuela, now that benefits Columbia's elite few, not to mention the US's elite few.

[bemildred]

15. Well, I did like the part about the "vastly more battle-hardened"

Colombian troops. That was pretty funny.

[mountebank]

17. I'll bite. What's your point in posting these anti-Chavez articles?

It's pretty obvious you're pushing an idea more than simple news stories.

So, let's here your case. We'll discuss it. And then, when we discard it, you can go away and stop posting your anti-Chavez propaganda. You're not opening anyone's eyes.

For every one anti-Chavez posts of yours, we could produce three from reputable news sources.

[oldhat]

19. The facts are anti-Chavez?

How many times are you going to see news articles about Chavez making massive arms purchases at a place like DU, where Chavez is worshipped?

You bet I'm opening eyes.

I think Hugo Chavez is a repulsive autocrat and essentially anti-democratic (shutting down newspapers, jailing dissidents, etc.), just like Uribe and Castro. I think Chavez is packing his courts and beating the shit out of anti-government protestors like any rightwing dictator, except he gets a free pass from the people around here because he presents himself as a "leftist" and says mean things to Bush, which somehow makes him "one of us."

[bemildred]

20. Well, there was this one recently:

Venezuela plans to buy a lot of Russian weapons

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=1025723

Shameless pro-Chavez propaganda, to be sure ...

[HuckleB]

21. Facts?

Yes, he's buying arms. However, no, he is no threat to Columbia, as any basic evaluation of the situation would indicate. This piece uses false "fears," likely pushed forth by Bush and Rove to the forefront, in an attempt to create a crisis where none exists, unless Bush and his corporatocracy force one in order to gain control of something they don't currently own via debt and military might.

Sorry, but you haven't opened your eyes. There's a whole boatload and a half of history waiting for you to get to know, and, yeah, it's waiting for you in the Panama Canal. Go and get it.

[oldhat]

24. Did you know Chavez beats and tortures anti-govt' protestors?

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2004/04/12/venezu8423.htm

But that's OK because he's a "leftist"?

[AP]

26. Nobody thought that was OK. When the archives are searchable, we'll

show you the extensive discussion that went on about this.

[oldhat]

28. So if Chavez beats up people and tortures them...

...it's a forgiveable crime, but not when Bush does it?

Why aren't there calls for this asshole's resignation?

[Judi Lynn]

32. You need to post a link to your information on Chavez

to support your claim he "beats up people and tortures them..."

Otherwise, it's an obnoxious lie from someone who is simply not controlling himself tonight.

[oldhat]

34. Here.

From the radical CIA-funded right-wingers at Human Rights Watch:

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2004/04/12/venezu8423.htm

[AP]

39. Here's an article noting HRW's "history of bias" in VZ:

A history of bias

It would be nice to think that the HRW report was a slip-up in what is otherwise a virtuous record in HRW’s defense of human rights in Venezuela. However, HRW has shown itself to be biased to an amazing extent with regard to Venezuela under the Chavez government. For example, during the 2002 coup attempt HRW issued a statement on April 12, the day that “transition president” Pedro Carmona issued his decree in which he dissolved the constitution, the legislature, the courts, and just about all other state entities and named himself president. That day HRW merely appealed to the “transition authorities” to behave themselves, but did nothing to condemn the wholesale dissolution of all constitutional guarantees; nor did they demand from the international community to apply the OAS Democratic Charter to isolate Venezuela diplomatically. The current report, however, while not going so far as to call for sanctions, does recommend that certain provisions of the Democratic Charter be applied to Venezuela now. This pattern, of disproportionately strong criticism of the Chavez government compared to both the opposition and to other governments in Latin America, is a pattern that HRW has pursued for quite some time now.

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/articles.php?artno=1200

[oldhat]

43. So they over-report Chavez's torturing people?

There's simply too much talk about Chavez's cops beating the shit out of people and electrocuting them? They should talk about Chavez's national guardsman knocking people out with phonebooks less?

Because talking about it too much indicates an anti-torture bias.

[AP]

46. Phonebooks? Electrocuting? Where'd you get that? Neither are mentioned...

...in your HRW report.

Link?

[oldhat]

52. Bias

Let's talk about Human Rights Watch's arrogant display of anti-torture bias some more.

[AP]

54. You're making stuff up that isn't even in the HRW allegation.

It seems you don't want to be tied down by facts.

[oldhat]

57. right

Chavez's cops beat up their prisoners with daisies and feather dusters.

Tell me about this outrageous anti-torture bias HRW has.

People are dying to hear about it.

[AP]

62. The victims made very specific allegations.

[Judi Lynn]

53. I shudder to think of the dreaded phone-book sucker punch.

We went through ALL of these things, like the conductor, the guys who claimed to have been gassed in a vehicle, etc. when WINDNSEA was here.

No new charges since then, either, you notice.

[AP]

55. I know, I know. Somebody get this guy a star so he can search the archives

and see where this is all headed.

Edit: oops. He has a star. No excuse for ignorance, then, once the archive search is turned back on.

[Judi Lynn]

49. Your link asks Hugo Chavez to investigate the charges, doesn't it?

Indeed, you challenged those who had complained about human rights abuse to present you with the names of victims, and you declared your uncompromising commitment to promoting human rights and bringing human rights abusers to justice. In the spirit of that commitment, we respectfully urge you to ensure that investigations into these alleged abuses are impartial and thorough, and that the parties responsible for human rights abuses are prosecuted.
(snip)

I'm not getting any sense that Hugo Chavez beats and tortures people.

Nice try. Maybe you'd like to take a look at the 51 pages of subjects needing immediate attention from Human Rights Watch on U.S. BIG problems:

http://hrw.org/doc/?t=usa

[AP]

33. Pick one of those incidents from the HRW report on will talk about whether

it warrants a reversal of the elections which Chávez has won.

[oldhat]

36. Court packing?

Jailing dissident journalists? Beating up foreign journalists? "Systematic" torture and violence against opposition protestors? State control of the media? Turning the court system into a rubber stamp for Chavez's policies?

Take your pick.

[AP]

42. Some notes about "court packing":

Also, the report uses quite pejorative language for a presumably objective report, giving the law a nick-name worthy of the opposition, calling it “the new court-packing law,” consistently throughout the report. Again, no one should be surprised if readers mistake such a report for an opposition document.

First, the new law was supposedly passed under questionable circumstances (the opposition’s role in these circumstances, of a minority attempting to block the functioning of the legislature at any cost is conveniently omitted from the report). Among the more serious accusations leveled here is that an “organic law,” which this is, requires a 2/3 majority to pass the legislature. However, the constitution’s article 203, which HRW cites, says quite clearly: “Any organic law project, except those that this constitution qualifies as such, will be previously admitted by the National Assembly by a two-thirds vote of the members present before beginning discussion of the respective law project.” (emphasis mine) Note, it does not say that a two-thirds majority of all Assembly members is required to pass the law. Only a two-thirds majority is required of those present to begin discussing the law.

Second, the Supreme Court law allows the Chavez government to “pack” the court by increasing its members from 20 to 32. Here it is important to note that the number of judges is slightly arbitrary. That is, the constitution does not specify how many judges should preside over the Supreme Court. The ability of the legislature to specify the number of judges is something that is completely within the realm of the legislative power, just as it is in the U.S. While it certainly will tip the balance of power towards the government in terms of the judges’ sympathies, this, by itself, is not an undermining of judicial independence, as the report suggests. Criticizing this aspect of the Supreme Court law, places Human Rights Watch squarely in sympathy with Venezuela’s opposition, in its effort to make sure that the opposition does not lose its balance of power in the court.

Rather, HRW should have focused only on how this “packing” is being done merely because the legislature has the power to do so, not because there is an objective need for more justices. In other words, on moral grounds this practice is questionable because its basis appears to be Machiavellian. Also, in practical terms, one ought to point out that future legislatures, where the opposition has a majority could, in theory, increase the number of judges yet again, so as to regain its share of power, leading to an ever larger Supreme Court. There ought to be some sort of more or less objective determination, fixed in the law or the constitution, which sets the number of Supreme Court judges. Independence, as I will argue below, is not the issue.

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/articles.php?artno=1200

[oldhat]

47. If FDR can...

If FDR can act like a proto-dictator in the good ol' USA, then it must be OK for our buddy Hugo! Nice reasoning!

[AP]

51. So now you think FDR was a dictator? At least we know where you're coming

from.

Is that Democrat in your avatar a cover? You can't really be enthusiastic about any Democrat if you think FDR was a dictator.

[oldhat]

56. The court packing scandal.

This was big news. Big scandal. Many Democrats who weren'ty blindly loyal to the Party thought FDR was acting like an authoritarian, which he was, when he packed the courts with yes-men.

Now your dodging the issue.

Chavez is a thug.

[AP]

58. FDR was no dictator. He tried something for a good reason and he didn't

defy the law when it told him he couldn't do it.

Now take a look at the article I linked above. It looks like VZ law allows "court packing." So where's the thuggish dictator angle?

[makhno]

35. Chavez beat you up?

Or God took a shit and appointed you chief of intellectual consistency on DU? FOAD, troll.

[oldhat]

37. That's a good point.

Intellectual consistency.

So torturing people is sometimes OK, as long as it's done against bad people. And for the right reasons.

Some, after all, are more equal than others.

[makhno]

38. You got it, troll

[AP]

41. Just so we're defining our terms here, who was tortured?

[oldhat]

45. Human beings.

Fellow Venezuelans.

[AP]

48. We can't presume facts that aren't in evidence.

Who was tortured? Name someone and tell me where you got the evidence.

[oldhat]

59. Here

http://www.amnesty.org.uk/news/press/15354.shtml

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3571383.stm

http://www.ishr.ch/About%20UN/Reports%20and%20Analysis/CAT%20-%2029th%20session.htm

[AP]

63. The BBC article which is a report on the Amnesty allegations doesn't

show that there was any torture.

The ISHR article applauds Chavez's constitution, and doesn't clarify whether the lingering questions pertain to opposition police forces, such as the one the Caracas mayor ran, or naitonal forces under the charge of Chavez.

If you want to argue that Chavez is illegitimate, you're going to need more than this.

[WyLoochka]

66. HRW has said these are "allegations"

that should be investigated. You have taken the giant leap here from "allegation" to conviction without benefit of investigation.

Remember the "allegations" that were made againmst Clinton? He was a rampant rapist, drug running, murderer - remember?

Oldhat - you need to be a little more cautious about single handedly playing jury and rendering verdicts based on "allegations" from your perch here in the thoroughly propagandized US.

[HuckleB]

68. Thanks for responding to an imaginary post.

Who said anything about forgiveness?

Where are your calls for Bush's resignation? Where are you posting articles about Bush's policies, about what Bush would do in Venezuela? Where are you posting articles about torture and abuse of peasants by the government in Columbia? Sorry, but you want to attack Chavez in a vacuum, and that vacuum is not reality. It's time to learn some history. I'm tired of asking you to hit those books. It's time, now. Go.

[HuckleB]

27. Ah, yes, let's get the CIA in there and force another coup now!

We, after all, have our hands clean when it comes to torture and abuse, not to mention our good buddies over there in Columbia.

:eyes:

Those books are still waiting, and you're holding up the line for the canal. So, please, get to reading. And don't send me any more nonsense. I know all about Chavez's many sides. Most of those who are on this board won't talk to me because I've criticized him too many times. So, please, hit the books, and come back when you know the full story.

[AP]

29. And if the other side doesn't play by the rules when we're trying to...

...subvert their democracy, all the more reason they don't deserve to democratically lead.

[oldhat]

30. "Many sides"

"I know all about Chavez's many sides."

That's a fancy, bullshit Rumsfeldian way of saying his "dictatorial tendencies. "

[HuckleB]

69. You are definitely Rovian in your tendency to promote propaganda.

Anyone who is looking at this situation from an honest perspective knows that Venezuela has not had a more democratic leader in decades. They also know that there are no leaders waiting in the wings at the moment who would do anything but make Venezuela less democratic. You've got to know that you are actually going to improve things when you replace somebody, regardless of that person's faults. You clearly don't give a rat's ass about that, however. And I suspect that comes from ignorance of Venezuelan, South American, US, and World history, nevermind recent events. You are posting in a fake, fictional world. It's time to join reality.

[FDRrocks]

31. Bait.... and Switch

old tactic. Stick to a line of thought. Or I could follow suit and bring up Kent State, eh :)

on edit: I wonder how the US would react if people started assassinating our minister and attempting coups. I really wonder, don't you?

[Tempest]

73. Those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones

Guantanamo tactics "tantamount to torture"

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L30697233.htm

WASHINGTON, Nov 30 (Reuters) - The International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) has accused the U.S. military of using tactics "tantamount to torture" on prisoners at the U.S. Navy base in Guantanamo Bay, the New York Times reported on Tuesday.


If you want to rage against injustice and abuses, keep it closer to home.

[AP]

25. Try, two days ago. Only difference is the spin.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=1025723

Who has Chávez jailed who didn't commit a crime? What media hasn't been able to reach the people because of Chávez?

Chávez's plan to reform the courts to get water down the influence of the fascists was exactly what FDR tried to do so that FDR could rescue America from fascism faster.

I think people like Chávez here because he's been doing a nice job of standing up to fascists.

[el_gato]

75. You are, perhaps unwittingly, a stooge

Will you be supporting U.S. funded war against Chavez then?

[Minstrel Boy]

18. "should we wait for Washington to come and bomb our small towns"

Commentary Nov 22 by Franz J. T. Lee: Venezuela ... after Danilo Anderson ... what's next?

...

Before arming ourselves (like in Cuba) with all weapons that are necessary against a fascist mongrel, should we first wait "democratically" till "Big Brother" Bush has fetched all of us, one by one?

Already over 20 massacred peasant leaders, Pulitti, Anderson, and many others, had to believe in it. Now, who knows who is next, Chávez or Baduel? In the end, should we wait for Washington to come and bomb our small towns to rubble and dust like in Fallujah?

...

At the eleventh hour, this Venezuelan tip of the global revolutionary iceberg, is that what fascinates the world that still daydreams about human happiness, humanism, beauty, truth, love, solidarity and the future.

Supporting anything else that comes from Washington is tantamount to reckless hara-kiri, to coward capitulation vis-a-vis World Fascism.

http://www.vheadline.com/readnews.asp?id=23626

[makhno]

22. Lots of right-wing shit on this board tonight [nt]

[Judi Lynn]

40. You really have to wonder how Colombia could be quaking in its boots

with dread over the idea of Venezuela's well-publicized weapons purchase, when it has just been announced they are entering into a joint project:

Colombia, Venezuela Discuss Pipeline for China Sales (Update2)
Nov. 9 (Bloomberg) -- Colombia and Venezuela set aside border conflicts as their two presidents discussed strengthening economic ties, including construction of an oil pipeline that would ease Venezuela's dependence on U.S. markets.

Colombian President Alvaro Uribe said he and his Venezuelan counterpart, Hugo Chavez, discussed a plan to connect Maracaibo in Venezuela to the province of Choco, about 1,000 kilometers (625 miles) to the west on Colombia's Pacific coast.

The proposal would make it possible for Venezuela to shift exports away from the U.S., the buyer of more than 60 percent of the nation's crude, by offering a route other than the Panama Canal, which can't accommodate the biggest tankers, said Julio Cesar Vera, who is in charge of oil policy at the Mines Ministry in Bogota. Venezuela is the world's fifth-largest oil exporter.

``President Chavez will continue analyzing the project with us, with the international community to find possible concessionaries for the project,'' Uribe said at a press conference after their meeting in Colombia's Caribbean port of Cartagena.
(snip/...)

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000086&sid=anTKy.JCMopg&refer=latin_america

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Colombia was just outfitted again recently with a LARGE assortment of helicopters, and god only knows what. They are OVERWHELMINGLY outfitted with tons of weaponry the U.S. taxpayers have had to buy for them with _Bush's blessings.

Since they are fully patronized by _Bush and wildly protected by this government, which would LEAP at the chance to blow Venezuela to smithereens if a claim of agression could be made, Colombian government officials are in NO WAY trembling in fear of anything beyond the U.S. getting a decent President who will cut them off.

[AP]

44. Great last sentence, J.L.

[Judi Lynn]

60. You're definitely too kind, A.P. Thanks.

Maybe this photo of Richard Perle will soothe and calm our visiting VCrisis scholars after their struggles tonight:

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

87. I repeat it here, in giddy anticipation of oldhat's commentary on them

The last two actually:

"Colombia was just outfitted again recently with a LARGE assortment of helicopters, and god only knows what. They are OVERWHELMINGLY outfitted with tons of weaponry the U.S. taxpayers have had to buy for them with Bush's blessings.

Since they are fully patronized by Bush and wildly protected by this government, which would LEAP at the chance to blow Venezuela to smithereens if a claim of agression could be made, Colombian government officials are in NO WAY trembling in fear of anything beyond the U.S. getting a decent President who will cut them off."

So?

[Jack_DeLeon]

61. I wonder what kind of Semi-automatic rifles...

I wonder what kind of rifles Venezuela picked up?

And why they were only semi-auto?

Not that there is anything wrong with semi-auto weapons but typcially most military long arms have select fire capabilities.

I wonder if they are getting those newer model AKs, or just some of the older surplus.

[happyslug]

64. here is a Comparison between the armies of Columbia and Venezuela:

Please note, the report says Venezuela's army is a hollow shell compared to Columbia's army.

http://www.petroleumworld.com/Lag101804.htm

Recent Columbia Purchase of 46 Tanks:
http://www.colombiaweek.org/20040301.html

The AMX-30:
http://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/row/amx-30.htm

[HuckleB]

70. And, of course, we're training Columbians on US soil.

http://daily.stanford.edu/tempo?page=content&id=15442&repository=0001_article

[bemildred]

71. The tank purchase was cancelled.

Zapatero said no.

[Judi Lynn]

80. So glad I saw your post. Didn't know about this! Good for Zapatero.

Doesn't looks as if he's going to be inundated with lots of invites to the Texas "ranch" like his predecessor. That could be a real blessing.


The New Guy.
No simpering idiot.

[HuckleB]

72. The shock troops of global warfare

http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=1314502004

[radric]

74. I'm sure..

Chavez needs the weapons in case the people of Venezuela ever get the chance to vote again. Just insurance to make sure they know which way to vote...

[HuckleB]

76. LOL.

:eyes:

[plasticsundance]

77. The Carter Center said the Venezuela reflected the will of the people

"Carter Center presented the Center’s “Executive Summary of Comprehensive Report” on Venezuela’s recall referendum. The 14-page report presents numerous criticisms and recommendations about the recall referendum process, but also confirms that the referendum’s final result legitimately affirmed President Chavez mandate.

According to the report, “The presidential recall process was a novel electoral event for Venezuela. The process suffered from some irregularities, delays, politicization, and intimidation.” But it also says, “Nevertheless, we note it is important to distinguish between irregularities and fraudulent acts that could change the outcome of a process. It is the Center’s finding that the official results reflect the will of the Venezuelan electorate as expressed on Aug. 15, 2004.” (emphasis included in the report"

http://americas.org/item_16554

It also included recommendations to the opposition and Venezuela media, which acts as a tool for the opposition:

“The media culture of Venezuela exacerbates, rather than defuses, divisions and conflict in the country. It encourages opponents to communicate through the press rather than negotiate directly. The practice of both public and private media reporting any statement by any protagonist without investigation or fact checking encourages the spread of misinformation, inflammatory rhetoric, and the perpetuation of two opposing virtual realities.”

Does the above sound familiar? CNN? NBC? ABC? MSNBC? FAUXNews? US Newspapers?

:eyes:

Full report:

http://www.cartercenter.org/documents/1837.pdf

[Judi Lynn]

78. Truly! How could anyone not realize they've only just voted AGAIN

It's not as if it hasn't been in all the papers! Quite a bit of publicity building up to the event for a year or more, as well.....

Welcome to D.U., plasticsundance! :hi: :hi: :hi:

[HuckleB]

79. Yes. I know that.

What about my post makes you think I wouldn't?

[Judi Lynn]

81. Hi, HuckleB. I think Plasticsundance was addressing "radric," probably.n/t

[plasticsundance]

82. Thanks Judi Lynn for the invite.

Glad to be here. :) :toast:

And, yes, I was addressing radric. I was trying to be non-confrontational and keep to the evidence at hand.

I apologize for the confusion HuckleB.;-)

[HuckleB]

86. No problem.

Sorry to be so cranky. I'm stuffed up today, and I guess that makes me tighter than normal.

Salud.

[HuckleB]

85. I think you're right. Thanks, Judi Lynn.

[Judi Lynn]

84. Food for thought, a LTTE concerning Colombia:

November 30, 2004

Last modified November 30, 2004 - 12:30 am



Voice of the reader: Colombia policy does not work

President Bush just made his first international visit since re-election, to one of my favorite countries, oil-rich Colombia, where he promised to spend more of our taxes for a five-year commitment. $3 billion is a massive amount of money and deserves extensive debate. Congress just doubled the number of U.S. troops in Colombia. Over the last five years, we already spent $3.9 billion; 80 percent went to Colombia's military and a drug crop-eradication program based on aerial herbicide fumigation.


When traveling in Colombia, I witnessed the results of this "fumigation," which is really a scorched earth campaign. I also listened to testimony from indigenous people, community leaders and labor organizers who are being massacred by the Colombian military and their partners, the paramilitary death squads.


The Bush administration claims that drug cultivation has gone down since an area the size of Glacier Park has been poisoned, but the DEA says cocaine is just as available in the U.S. and at the same price as before. Why do we support a policy that does not work? Why do we continue to fund the military that abuses human rights? Could it be profitable for the petroleum companies that lobbied for this policy?
(snip/)http://www.billingsgazette.com/index.php?id=1&display=rednews/2004/11/30/build/opinion/50-reader-voice.inc

[HuckleB]

89. Thanks for sharing. Here's a piece you might be interested in, too.

United against the State?
http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/WO0411/S00318.htm

[Judi Lynn]

90. It's astounding. Leaves one breathless. Gotta read it again later tonight.

This should demand a lot of consideration.

The material about the paramilitary forces resembles perfectly information I've heard from a poster who has moved to the states from Colombia, on another message board. We just don't hear about it here, and it's no mystery, since we are supporting them, philosophically. Sad, sad arrangement.

I'm going to reread it slowly. It's damned interesting. Thanks a lot, HuckleB, for making it available.

[VegasWolf]

88. Go Hugo go! gawd I love pissing off repukes!