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WestHoustonDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 02:06 PM
Original message
Kerry Supports Ohio Vote Investigation, Jackson says
Kerry Supports Ohio Vote Investigation, Jackson says
http://www.freepress.org/departments/display/19/2004/944
by Steven Rosenfeld
November 28, 2004

John Kerry supports a “full investigation” into voting irregularities in Ohio, Rev. Jesse Jackson said Saturday, during a teleconference with media regarding a recount and legal challenge of the Nov. 2 vote.

“John Kerry supports a full investigation,” Jackson said. He recently spoke with the Democratic presidential nominee and reported that Kerry said he conceded the race on the morning after Election Day because “originally, he was inclined to believe what he was told” about the results. On Wednesday, Nov. 3, Kerry said there was little chance he could close George W. Bush’s 130,000-vote lead with the uncounted provisional and absentee ballots.

Jackson’s brief remarks may be the first that shed some light on Kerry’s fast concession – a decision many supporters felt was too hasty. Jackson will be in Ohio today, Sunday, Nov. 28, to declare his support for a recount of the Ohio vote and for a broader investigation into voting patterns that he said were “suspicious” and could have given votes to Bush that he did not earn.

“We want to look at the exit polls,” Jackson said, referring to at least two non-partisan Election Day polls, by Zogby and CNN, which gave Kerry 53 percent and 51 percent of the vote, respectively. “We don’t want to be presumptuous, but these numbers in the Butler, Clarmont, Warren and Hamilton counties are suspicious.”

By suspicious, Jackson is referring to the latest analysis of the Nov. 2 vote by a coalition of Ohio voting rights activists. In analyzing the still-unofficial results, the totals reveal that C. Ellen Connally, an African-American Democratic candidate from Cleveland for Ohio Chief Justice, received more than 257,000 votes than Kerry.

In Butler County, for example, Connally had 45,457 more votes than Kerry. The reason these vote counts are suspect is because Connelly, a retired African-American judge, was vastly outspent in her race, and did not have the visibility of the presidential race. Thus for a more obscure Democratic candidate, farther down on the ticket, to get a quarter of a million more votes statewide than Kerry, suggests something happened to suggest there may have been a transfer of Kerry votes to Bush.

“This looks like a computer glitch or a computer fix,” said Bob Fitrakis, a lawyer, political scientist and Editor of the Columbus Free Press (http://freepres.org) who has written about election irregularities since Bush was declared the winner. Fitrakis is among the team of lawyers who announced they would soon file an election challenge in the state’s Supreme Court.

“Statistically, Kerry, as the Democratic presidential candidate, should have more votes than Connally. In a presidential election, most voters have the priority of casting a vote for president and the votes for president are almost always much higher than those of candidates farther down the ticket. When voters vote for Democratic candidates farther down the ticket, it is usually being driven by a sample ballot from the Party, starting at the top with president. Many voters simply don’t vote for Supreme Court justices. It is highly improbable that Connally’s vote totals would be so much higher than Kerry’s,” Fitrakis said.

The fact that Warren County has such odd vote counts is no surprise to Fitrakis. “The Republican-dominated county threw out all the media and independent vote watchers when votes were being counted at the end of Election Day, claiming ‘homeland security’ issues. This would have easily allowed for the wholesale shifting of a large amount of votes from Kerry to Bush. If you’re behind closed doors, it is easy enough to do. The November issues of Popular Science and Popular Mechanics magazines show how easy it is to hack the vote and steal an election. The articles are called ‘E-vote emergency: And you thought dimpled chads were bad’ and ‘Could hackers tilt the election?’ I think they did,” explained Fitrakis.

Fitrakis said that when one looks at the Connally-Kerry results across the state, it becomes clear that Connally – who was on the Ohio Democratic Party sample ballots – was getting tens of thousands of votes in counties that were known to be Republican strongholds, until this year’s unprecedented voter registration and mobilization efforts.

There were 15 Ohio counties where Connally’s margin was 5,000 votes or more better than Kerry’s unofficial results. In five counties, Connally had a 10,000-vote margin or better. These counties used punch card, optical scan, and touch screen voting machines – with most using punch card systems.

This analysis is merely the latest that has been uncovered about how Ohio’s Nov. 2 vote was tilted toward Bush. Immediately after the election, there were reports that the number of voting machines brought to the state’s urban, Democratic-leaning precincts was deliberately shorted. There were numerous sworn statements from voters in urban areas that the voter rolls were old and out-of-date, forcing voters, many registered for years, to use provisional ballots – which get counted last or do not get counted at all unless the voter was in the right precinct. Voters also testified under oath about machines malfunctioning and recording votes for Bush when people believed they had selected Kerry.

All of these trends – plus the fact that the Bush victory did not jibe with at least two non-partisan exit polls taken on Election Day in Ohio – are behind Jesse Jackson’s trip to the state today, Sunday, Nov. 28.

Jackson will visit Columbus and Cincinnati to meet with voters, civil rights activists, ministers and others who are working for a full accounting of the Ohio presidential vote. Jackson said he hoped to coordinate these activities and his organization, Rainbow-PUSH, would join litigation seeking to challenge Bush’s alleged victory at the state Supreme Court.

Jackson also joined the call by many, from Common Cause to the Green and Libertarian Parties, for Ohio Secretary of State Kenneth Blackwell to recuse himself from tallying the state’s presidential election result, because he was co-chair of the Bush-Cheney re-election team in Ohio.

“We need to investigate, coordinate, litigate, recount and recuse," he said, referring to the legitimacy of the Ohio vote. “Mr. Blackwell cannot be both the owner of the team and the umpire.”

--
Steven Rosenfeld is senior producer of The Laura Flanders Show on Air America Radio.
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 02:07 PM
Response to Original message
1. Well then good for Kerry
Edited on Sun Nov-28-04 02:09 PM by JohnKleeb
I hope some good comes out of this.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #1
20. I don't hear Kerry saying Jackshit about this!!!!!!!
Edited on Sun Nov-28-04 04:33 PM by IndianaGreen
Let's see Kerry say in public the same thing that Jackson has said! Enough of this bullshit about being too cautious to offend the rightwing. Screw the rightwing and their stupid fundamentalist Biblical beliefs that the world is 5,000 years old!

Kerry said he conceded the race on the morning after Election Day because “originally, he was inclined to believe what he was told” about the results.

Yeah, like the same way Kerry voted for IWR because he believed in Bush and his lies about WMDs in Iraq. This dog won't hunt!
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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #20
50. How come this post survived basic rules re: CR?
Just curious.
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ginnyinWI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #20
65. you know, JK has had experience with the media since 1971
so maybe, just maybe he knows what he's doing. Have a little patience, and a little trust. It will cost you nothing. So just hang on and watch. If nothing happens, you are out nothing.
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Okieprogie Donating Member (52 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 02:08 PM
Response to Original message
2. typical Kerry
All he's doing here is playing both sides of the issue. If he supports it he should come out and say so publicly.
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pacalo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. Okie, please read this...
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Toucano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Thank you.
I had missed that one.
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #5
24. I think I luv you!
Thank you thank you...A lawyer's strategy is highly confidential! We don't lay out the battle plan to the enemy before we fire a shot. People need to be patient until he goes for the jugular.
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Okieprogie Donating Member (52 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #5
27. Well, I hope you're right. thanks /eom
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ablebody Donating Member (2 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #2
19. Kerry should support Ohio effort
I agree. He's got to come out and say he supports the investigation. Maybe use some of his extra $$$$ to help the effort.
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 02:11 PM
Response to Original message
3. Wow. Connally got 257,000 more votes than Kerry.
Edited on Sun Nov-28-04 02:22 PM by lizzy
Kerry is only trailing Bush by 130,000 votes. Hmm.
If only we could get Kerry to come out and ask those questions.
:eyes:
I don't get these numbers though. How is that Connally didn't win if she got 257,000 more than Kerry?
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #3
45. I think those numbers make no sense and are not correct.
Kerry had gotten way more votes than Connally, according to official (not-updated) records.
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sally343434 Donating Member (628 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 02:24 PM
Response to Original message
4. "Believe what he was told?"
> Kerry said he conceded the race on the morning after Election
> Day because “originally, he was inclined to believe what he was
> told” about the results.


No, I think that sentence should have read Kerry "was inclined to do what he was told.” Some leadership, huh? Just exactly what was the "duty" he was "reporting for" anyway?
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lfairban Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 02:54 PM
Response to Original message
6. The link in the article is bad.
It has one too few "s"es. It takes you to a site for the Free Presbyterian Church.

Use this link:

http://www.freepress.org/index2.php

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bettyellen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. thank you, interesting to say the least!
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. very
hopefully something is up, seems to me though Kerry is damned if he does, damned if he doesnt to many though, I'm more upset with the idiots who were too apathetic or too ignorant to vote for Kerry.
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Stand and Fight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 03:32 PM
Response to Original message
10. Significant Development
Edited on Sun Nov-28-04 03:32 PM by Stand and Fight
I believe this is the most significant development to date. We've got Jesse Jackson involved, and though that may not seem like a big deal to some, there are a lot of people who respect the guy. My personal favorite parts of the article were the following bits:

“John Kerry supports a full investigation,” Jackson said. He recently spoke with the Democratic presidential nominee and reported that Kerry said he conceded the race on the morning after Election Day because “originally, he was inclined to believe what he was told” about the results.

Jackson said he hoped to coordinate these activities and his organization, Rainbow-PUSH, would join litigation seeking to challenge Bush’s alleged victory at the state Supreme Court.



Reading both of those parts made me almost positively giddy with euphoria! The language surrounding the recount in Ohio is totally changing before our eyes every damn day. It has gone from them not saying that the election was "fair and square" to "we are not seeking to challenge the election or overturn President Bush's victory -- we only want to ensure every vote is verified" to, and this I love, "would join litigation seekign to challenge Bush's ALLEGED victory a tthe state Supreme Court." Now if Kerry would join the party, once this Connally issue is fully investigated -- and I don't think it will take long seeing as how the same thing described in the OP has happened in Indiana -- this will have to gain national media recognition. It's going to be getting a little hot pretty soon -- that's what my instints are telling me.

:bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:
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saracat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. Yassah! Why isn't this front page news?????
Why isn't this fontpage on DU ??????
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #13
26. solicit cnn, fox et. al with your question
Ask them
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regnaD kciN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #13
44. Because it ain't front page news anywhere!
Face it: according to the popular narrative, the election is over. Bush won. Haven't you heard?

Face it, it will take a miracle to overcome that popular perception. And all this frenetic activity by everyone but John Kerry himself, two weeks before the electors have to be certified, is too little, too late.

:grr:

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rainbow4321 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #13
53. Oklahoma issues now?
I know, OK isn't going to turn blue BUT is there a smoking gun? And does anyone else have similar info for other states/counties, etc..
Take a peek at the OK fraud thread and the question of whether OK machines had software that was subtracting votes--and Tulsa World may have jumped the gun by running the real tally numbers from that night:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x82661

In a nutshell:
Tulsa World had county by county prez results in their Nov 3rd paper. Some of the listed vote tallies don't agree the official OK Elections Board webpage. Even if you go under the assumption that the Tulsa World went to print in the middle of the night and didn't have 100% votes in for each county, the newspaper article vote numbers are HIGHER in a few counties than what the OK election website has..
example:

Adair County <Tulsa World from Nov 3> 3704 for JK
Adair County <Elections webpage from Nov 15> 2562 for JK

Alfalfa County <Tulsa World Nov 3> 920 for JK
Alfalfa County <Elections webpage from Nov 15> 470 for JK

HOW are earth did his vote tally go DOWN???

Here is the Tulsa World page:
http://www.tulsaworld.com/TWPDFs/2004/Final/A_10_11_3_2004.pdf

Here is the OK Elections Web page--go down to page 3 for prez results.
http://www.state.ok.us/~elections/04gen_co.pdf


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goclark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #10
43. As the hip hop song says," It's gettin'hot in here
Edited on Sun Nov-28-04 05:43 PM by goclark
let's take off all our clothes!"

"Fire! Fire!"

Joining in the party!


:bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:
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Ima Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #10
48. Lets hope
Jessie can grab Kerry by the hand, and get him to finish what he started. BTW ..why did Jessie wait so long, I expected to see him on this, like white on rice. Or was Jessie encouraged to leave this alone, thinking Kerry would act?
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 03:33 PM
Response to Original message
11. "he was inclined to believe what he was told"
Come ON. Am I to believe Kerry is a complete fucking IDIOT? I know he knew about BBV before the election, and he was around for Grand Theft 2000.

This is similar to his "I trusted b*sh" excuse with regards to the IWR. Completely unbelievable, because for the excuse to be true, Kerry would have to be pretty stupid. He's not stupid.

Sigh.

Regardless, if he actually does something about the fraud before 12/13, good for him. I'm glad others didn't wait for him to come charging to the rescue, though.

I'm far prouder of people like Ida Briggs and other DUers here who refused to give up than I am of Kerry. But if he finally joins in, I won't complain!

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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #11
32. WE wait watch and listen...
The cheaters have grabbed up all the machinery. This is going to be difficult, but with faith the size of a mustard seed, one can move mountains. I know, I know...but I still have faith!
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regnaD kciN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #11
42. My thoughts exactly...
Edited on Sun Nov-28-04 05:37 PM by regnaD kciN
When I read

He recently spoke with the Democratic presidential nominee and reported that Kerry said he conceded the race on the morning after Election Day because “originally, he was inclined to believe what he was told” about the results.

My first reaction was, "What, again? Is John Kerry the most gullible politicial ever???"

:wtf:

If this is true, then, for a second time in a row, he (and we) are going to pay dearly for it. For, had Kerry not fallen for that line, he would have kept the issue in the media limelight, not allowed Bush to make his re-election a foregone conclusion, and pushed for a recount from the first, so that it might have happened before it was too late to change the outcome...which is sure what it's looking like is going to happen now.

:-(

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Stand and Fight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 04:05 PM
Response to Original message
12. Kicking it...
:kick:
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TexasChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 04:08 PM
Response to Original message
14. Freckin' bastards!

The fact that Warren County has such odd vote counts is no surprise to Fitrakis. “The Republican-dominated county threw out all the media and independent vote watchers when votes were being counted at the end of Election Day, claiming ‘homeland security’ issues. This would have easily allowed for the wholesale shifting of a large amount of votes from Kerry to Bush. If you’re behind closed doors, it is easy enough to do. The November issues of Popular Science and Popular Mechanics magazines show how easy it is to hack the vote and steal an election. The articles are called ‘E-vote emergency: And you thought dimpled chads were bad’ and ‘Could hackers tilt the election?’ I think they did,” explained Fitrakis.



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Pepper32 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 04:12 PM
Response to Original message
15. Kerry slowly UN-conceding ?
It surely seems like Jesse is setting the stage...


I don't believe for a minute the excuse Jesse Jackson gave for Kerry conceding so fast but I do believe that "somewhat naive" excuse was necessary. I mean what was he going to say, Kerry conceded knowing that their was possible fraud but like any good investigator he decided to lay low and gather evidence (this of course is the reason I believe he conceded). The media would have a gone nuts! They would have said he purposely lied for WHATEVER reasons and that he's unethical. MSM would have found some way to spin it to make John Kerry look bad.:think:

Anyway, I see this as GREAT NEWS! I just hope the news keeps getting better. :7 :7
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drunkdriver-in-chief Donating Member (267 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 04:17 PM
Original message
Well gee - It's only been a month since the election.
Kerry should have been screaming on Nov 3 about election fraud. That guy in the urkraine lost by a higher %age than kerry and he immediately raised hell. After what happened in 2000, kerry should have been suspicious no matter what.
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drunkdriver-in-chief Donating Member (267 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 04:17 PM
Response to Original message
16. Well gee - It's only been a month since the election.
Kerry should have been screaming on Nov 3 about election fraud. That guy in the urkraine lost by a higher %age than kerry and he immediately raised hell. After what happened in 2000, kerry should have been suspicious no matter what.
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mattclearing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-29-04 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #16
71. That should be a talking point.
I haven't checked the percentage, but if Kerry indeed "lost" by less percentage points than Yuschenko, then that will be our response to the "3.5 million popular vote" charge.
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American Tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 04:25 PM
Response to Original message
17. Pardon my language, but they had better fucking hurry up
Dammit, I like Kerry, but sometimes he seems shockingly naive. Why does it take him weeks to figure out things that we recognize immediately?
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Stand and Fight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #17
28. Ardently Agree
I could not agree with you more in this respect, and I have a great fondness for Pres... I mean, Senator Kerry. He needs to get his ass in gear and report for duty. Their language has totally undergone a change, and he could take a page from the book of the opposition leader in Ukraine and call for a general strike or AT LEAST do the American thing, un-concede, and call for recounts, and, IF NECESSARY, re-votes.
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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-30-04 12:38 AM
Response to Reply #28
76. And not just support, but DEMAND an investigation! n/t
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #17
29. He's a damn prosecutor for god sakes!
He's not going on deck without his facts!
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #29
34. He was also "Mister Electable"
and he is turning out to be a miserable failure on all counts!

By conceding the election, rather than fight for all the votes as John Edwards advised him to do, Kerry has pulled the rug from all Americans that want to ensure that all the votes were counted properly. Kerry has marginalized those that wanted a recount in Ohio and Florida.
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Moderator DU Moderator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 04:25 PM
Response to Original message
18. WestHoustonDem
Please read the rules for posting articles on DU.
Please do not post more than four paragraphs to avoid copyright infringment laws.

Thank you.
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lovuian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 04:35 PM
Response to Original message
21. I think we have a Ukraine situation here!!!
:bounce:
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high density Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 04:52 PM
Response to Original message
22. If Kerry supports a recount or whatever, he needs to come out and say it
Edited on Sun Nov-28-04 04:54 PM by high density
Comments made through Jesse Jackson aren't going to work. I agree with an earlier poster that this is more bullshit of playing both sides of the issue. Those who think fraud will see these comments and hope that Kerry will get involved, while those who don't can just dismiss them as hearsay.
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. Strategy Is Confidential
This is going to be a very interesting week!
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high density Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #23
31. I think it's going to be just like the last couple of weeks have been
A lot of false hope and not much more.
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rndmprsn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 05:04 PM
Response to Original message
25. sounds good, but...
until kerry is willing to put his rep and political future on the line and stand in the front lines...then all of this will be for naught.

perhaps they have a plan to unseat shrubby after the inauguration?
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Stand and Fight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #25
30. Kerry Needs to
STAND AND FIGHT STAND AND FIGHT STAND AND FIGHT STAND AND FIGHT STAND AND FIGHT STAND AND FIGHT STAND AND FIGHT STAND AND FIGHT STAND AND FIGHT STAND AND FIGHT STAND AND FIGHT STAND AND FIGHT STAND AND FIGHT STAND AND FIGHT STAND AND FIGHT STAND AND FIGHT STAND AND FIGHT STAND AND FIGHT STAND AND FIGHT STAND AND FIGHT STAND AND FIGHT STAND AND FIGHT
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Lizzie Borden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #30
38. So do we.
Take a cue from our brothers and sisters in the Ukraine.
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Redleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 05:17 PM
Response to Original message
33. Nothing to see here- just more Kerry bashing.
Nothing new at DU.
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. NOT
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Redleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-29-04 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #35
68. Not?
EOM
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #33
36. damned if you do, damned if you dont seems to be it
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #33
37. Why won't Kerry be the one that speaks up on this??????
Why is he silent at a time when his voice can add legitimacy to the efforts to count every ballot in Ohio and Florida? Why the moral failure to take a stand?
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wildflower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #37
59. See my post at the end of this thread...
Edited on Sun Nov-28-04 07:21 PM by wildflower
Re: the "Kerry clutches to hopes of recount victory" article.

I think it's a valid point that the media will jump all over any peep out of him before the evidence is completely gathered.

-wildflower

ON EDIT: Putting in link to the thread on the article:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=203&topic_id=80052
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high density Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #33
39. Come on.
Kerry is being an ass to his supporters with this "I'm investigating... no, not really, oh but yes I am" sort of shit that is leaking out. It's time for some clarity as to whether or not he's going to get involved.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #39
46. Perhaps Kerry is waiting for polling and focus group data before...
he decides on which side of the issue to take a stand...
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Redleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-29-04 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #46
70. Harsh.
Of course St. Nader doesn't have to worry about the political fallout from shouting election fraud because he doesn't have to work in the Senate. I know, we always bring Ralph into it.
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Redleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-29-04 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #39
69. Why don't you ask his supporters how they feel about it?
EOM
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LiberalFighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 05:29 PM
Response to Original message
40. They need to see if there were more votes than signatures too
What were the vote comparisons between 2000 and 2004?
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 05:32 PM
Response to Original message
41. AWESOME. Now go "on TV" and make it well known & official.
Unless you are scared that Judy Woodruff, Wolf Blitzer, Rush Limbaugh and Karl Rove will be "mean to you" that is.
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Stand and Fight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 05:59 PM
Response to Original message
47. Kick
:kick:
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maryallen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 06:08 PM
Response to Original message
49. Go Jesse, Go!
Get on the train, John -- it's leaving the station.
Time for you to "report for duty."

Your country needs you ...
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goclark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #49
51. We trust you to pick your moment!
Edited on Sun Nov-28-04 06:57 PM by goclark
Go John and John go.

as I see it, Jesse is the perfect one to test the waters because he is talking about Voter Suppression for the most part.

Rove doesn't care about that and the longer we can keep the Reps off of the air ways on this the better.

I am praying for a sneak attack!

Go Jesse GO!
:bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:
:bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:
:bounce:
:bounce: :bounce:
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__Inanna__ Donating Member (246 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #49
52. There may be a strategy here
First off, JK is no dummy. Nor do I think he's a wimp. The ONLY reason I see him backing down is if someone were to threaten his family if he doesn't. In his shoes, maybe plenty would back down. Maybe I am off on a wild goose chase, but doesn't seem too far a stretch to imagine this could happen.

Second, as long as someone else can lead the fight, I see why JK would stay in the background, until at which point he HAS to come forward.

I wonder what * thinks about all of this. He must know. Therefore, the more low profile JK is, the less * has to worry about. Maybe it's a way to stay low until all the ducks are in a row.

Then again, maybe I am just wishfully thinking.
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daleo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 06:40 PM
Response to Original message
54. If exit polls prove fraud in the Ukraine, they prove fraud in the U.S.
Keep hammering that point home. Bush has said that the spread between exit polls and results prove their was fraud in the Ukraine, so he has painted himself into a corner. But, people who can't be ignored have to say it. Like Kerry.
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bklyncowgirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #54
55. When did Bush say this about the exit polls in Ukraine.
I feel a cartoon coming on.
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goclark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #55
56. I saw it on TV yesterday!


I had to pick myself off the floor.

My mouth was wide opened.
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daleo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #55
60. Here is a Washington Post article
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A15404-2004Nov26.html

""There's just a lot of allegations of vote fraud that placed their election -- the validity of their elections in doubt," Bush said.
...
"That was a more restrained line than Powell took Wednesday, when he said the United States cannot accept the result as legitimate, called for an investigation into evidence of fraud and abuse, and spoke of "consequences for our relationship" if the Ukrainian government did not act responsibly."

The claim about the exit polls being in conflict with the vote count has been the key "allegation(s) of vote fraud" that I have heard. In fact, I have heard surprisingly few other specifics from the Ukraine election. Certainly much less than I have heard of the U.S. election (e.g. computers counting backward, computers dropping tens of thousands of "straight ticket" votes for Kerry, computers registering Bush votes when people entered Kerry votes, 106% of Wyoming's registered voters voting, etc).

Actually, the situation cries out for plenty of cartoons, of the political variety, that would point out these obvious contradictions.
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lthuedk Donating Member (551 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #55
62. Hows this:
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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 07:07 PM
Response to Original message
57. Jesse Jackson speaks in Columbus, OH
Rev. Jesse Jackson gave a moving speech at Mt Herman Missionary Baptist Church in Columbus Ohio. Rev Jackson's Rainbow PUSH Coalition is giving support to the 3 Organizations that are legally CONTESTING the election ( Freepress, CASEOhio and Common Cause)in Ohio.

Reverend Jackson to return to Columbus for the 12/4 Saturday FIGHT FOR DEMOCRACY RALLY at 1pm at the Ohio statehouse in Columbus.
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wildflower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 07:18 PM
Response to Original message
58. The following is a good example of why Kerry may want to be quiet...
until all the evidence is gathered:

"KERRY CLUTCHES TO HOPES OF RECOUNT VICTORY"

Kerry clutches to hopes of recount victory
White House calls on nation to 'come together'

Some supporters of Massachusetts Senator John Kerry and running mate John Edwards cling to the hope that an Ohio recount can swing the election

by Adam Stone

A White House spokeswoman told North County News last Friday that citizens should embrace the Election Day results and dismiss recount efforts in Ohio that could hand Democratic Senator John Kerry of Massachusetts the presidency.

snip

"Regardless of the outcome of this election, once all the votes are counted--and they will be counted--we will continue to challenge this administration," Kerry said through a web-exclusive statement and video Friday, which, curiously, was not distributed to the press.

The usage of the word 'regardless' in the carefully parsed statement was the first indication Kerry has offered that, in his mind, the official election results might be inaccurate enough to tilt the election in his favor.

this was posted at http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=203&topic_id=80052 ;

original article at http://www.northcountynews.com/view.asp?s=11-24-04/news5.htm
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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 07:43 PM
Response to Original message
61. More Ohio Data
4 counties in and around Cincinnati(read: republican stronghold) had unusual inconsistencies regarding voting. Connally listed below was the DEM candidate for supreme court.

Butler County: Connally received 45,457 more votes than Kerry
Clermont County: Connally received 22,998 more votes than Kerry
Warren County*: Connally received 24,785 more votes than Kerry
Hamiliton County: Connally received 16,289 more votes than Kerry

* This Ohio county was the sight of the security threat lockdown that was never initiated by FBI Or Homeland Security.

In 37 counties Connally's margin exceeded Kerry's by 2,000 votes or more. Looking at these 37 counties the total margin for Connally (the DEM supreme court candidate exceeded the margin for Kerry (in his race) by 257,546 votes.

freepress.org will have more info when it comes out. It is important to disseminate this information.
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theearthisround Donating Member (246 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 07:50 PM
Response to Original message
63. "Kerry’s Silence Indicates Complicity with Vote Fraud"
http://bellaciao.org/en/article.php3?id_article=4534

"Go to JohnKerry.com and you will find absolutely nothing about the mounting evidence of vote fraud- why? There is no mention of the official voting receipts found in the garbage, or about the vote suppression in Ohio, or about the GAO starting an investigation into the 57,000 reported cased of voting ’irregularities’ nationwide. 13 Members of Congress have asked for an investigation into the voting problems, heaven forbid JohnKerry.com mention that. Why is it that VoteNader.com and VoteCobb.org both address the voting problems right on the front page, but the Democratic ticket of Kerry and Edwards won’t address the issue at all?"
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paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #63
66. skull and bones! skull and bones! skull and bones!
va fan culo
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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 07:51 PM
Response to Original message
64. Help me with posting.
CaseOhio asked me to get out the OHio data that I just posted but I am new to posting and am not sure how to best get it noticed. It was big enough info to get Rev Jackson to back the 3 groups contesting the OH election. Rev Jackson will be back to Columbus to Speak at the Fight For Democracy Rally.
on 12/4 . Any suggestions?
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WestHoustonDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 10:26 PM
Response to Original message
67. If anyone wants to see it, the article has been updated..

The following article has been updated in order to provide additional
information about county voter margins and to correct an earlier
misstatement.

Kerry Supports Ohio Vote Investigation, Jackson says
by Steven Rosenfeld
November 28, 2004

John Kerry supports a “full investigation” into voting irregularities in
Ohio, Rev. Jesse Jackson said Saturday, during a teleconference with
media regarding a recount and legal challenge of the Nov. 2 vote.

Read more:
http://www.freepress.org/departments/display/19/2004/944
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BostonH Donating Member (5 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-29-04 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #67
72. I think it's too bad
that if Kerry comes out at all, Fox (followed by other media) will probably ridicule him with some "flip flopping, too little too late" arguments that make him look worse to his dwindling list of supporters.
I am all for the fight, and I have faith in the possibility that he can surmount all obstacles and get this thing righted, but we need more than just us dedicated liberals to back the effort.

Is there anything we can do to make sure moderates and even repubs get the point that solid evidence will prove? Can we make sure that they don't just flatly deny it?

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pat_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-29-04 11:57 PM
Response to Reply #72
74. They are just flatly denying....
They are just flatly denying. The big lie works. They've learned.

But we just have to keep hammering.

My conclusion early on, that they didn't steal this in a way that would be caught in a recount holds. The focus has to be on the discrimination and voter suppression. They think you can't count votes that were never cast. That notion must be challenged. Systematic discrimination makes a race unacceptable. Period. No matter what the margin of victory.

If you accept the notion that a large margin of victory puts an election "outside the zone of litigation" than you accept the notion that the election officials in state that leans heavily for one candidate or the another are free to discriminate to any degree they feel like.

Not in my country!

I don't care if "we've always had these problems"... past wrongs are no excuse for tolerating present wrongs. It's time to draw the line. This time we have the witnesses. We have video tape. We have estimates of the numbers who left the lines. Unless there is a remedy (like a new election), we must fight to have the results struck down in a court or be disallowed by Congress.
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pat_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-29-04 11:49 PM
Response to Original message
73. Correction / Clarification on the "margins" reported
As noted, the free press article has had a correction posted. Summary of the numbers added for clarification:

2000 Butler County

President
Kerry 54,185 34%
Bush 106,735 66%
160,920 votes cast in county for President. Bush won county by 52,550

Chief Justice
Democract Connally 59,532 47%
Republican Moyer 66,625 52%
126,157 votes cast in county for Chief Justice. Moyer won by 7,093

In raw votes, Connally got 5347 more votes than Kerry.


The 45,457 number is Bush's margin of victory over Kerry, 52,550, minus the Moyer margin of victory over Connnally, 7093. It is not clear to me what this number is supposed to indicate.

I'm not sure how signficant all this will end up being. The pattern seems to be about the same as the 2000 results:

Bush,83,680 63.42%
Gore 44,661 33.85%
128,341 votes cast in county for President.

Supreme Court Justice Term commencing Jan. 1, 2001
Deborah Cook 60,936 55.22%
Tim Black 49,417 44.78%
110,353 votes case (85% of presidential total)

Supreme Court Justice Term commencing Jan. 1, 2001
Terrence O'Donnell 58,897 51.93%
Alice Robie Resnick 54,517 48.07%
110,353 votes case (88% of presidential total)


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politicasista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-30-04 12:35 AM
Response to Reply #73
75. He conceded to soon..
but I don't blame him for not wanting to be like Gore.
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