Schroeder questions Bush linking politics, God

[Kellanved]

BERLIN - German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder has questioned whether US President George W. Bush should link political decisions to religion.

Speaking in a German television interview on Monday, Schroeder said: "It's foreign to me. I have difficulties with it, " after being asked what he made of Bush's growing use of Christianity as a basis for US policy. The text of the ARD talkshow interview was made available in advance to reporters.

Schroeder, a Social Democrat, is a lapsed Protestant who declined to use the formulation "so help me God" at his swearing in ceremonies as chancellor both in 1998 and 2002.

The German leader noted that Europe's 18th century enlightenment had moved the continent away from using religion as a motivation for political decisions.

...
http://www.expatica.com/source/site_article.asp?subchannel_id=26&story_id=14211&name=Schroeder+questions+Bush+linking+politics%2C+God+

[Not_Giving_Up]

1. Gee, can we catch up to the 18th Century, please! n/t

[Straight Shooter]

2. Germany sounds like a nice place to live

Common sense in a leader is always a positive :)

[BlueEyedSon]

10. Difficult language to master.....

:(

[BelleCarolinaPeridot]

13. Sehr sehr schwer

But I did it :)

[LSdemocrat]

19. Sehr schwer, aber nicht sehr sehr schwer.

:hi:

[BelleCarolinaPeridot]

26. My teacher gave me a hard time , sie war eine Schlampe lol .

I learned German at the local Volkhochschule while I was living in Germany . I was one of only 2 people in the entire class that spoke English and everyone else spoke Russian . She gave me a hard time - at the time it was hard for me to speak German without my accent but now I can do it . The grammar and syntax came easy for me . I actually enjoyed it but the only thing that made it hard for me was the teacher . I learned majority of it alone because I finally grew sick of the teacher :)

[LynnTheDem]

36. Easier than learning English

If you speak English, Deutsch ist nicht schwer.

[LSdemocrat]

46. True

English would be a nightmare to learn since English has virtually no hard rules like other languages.

[stevegrogan]

55. Linguistics ain't your strong suit, then.....

What do you mean by hard rule, anyway? How many languages don't have irregular forms? LOL.... Stupid... Maybe Esperanto...

[bahrbearian]

25. English is Difficult for a Chimpanzee

[Chimpanzee]

34. Speak for yourself!

[hippiechick]

60. Nein, deutsch ist sehr einfach !!

Ich studierte deutsch vier Jahren im Gymnasium, und ein Jahre mehr im Universitat ... das war 1994, und jetzt - heute - kann ich die Nahrichten vom DeutsheWelle am meistens verstehen.


:hippie:

[Zerex71]

51. It is a nice place to live...

- 35-hour workweeks
- 2-hour lunches (their biggest and most important meal of the day)
- 6 weeks government paid vacation
- progressive social policies and health care galore
- the people are exceedingly friendly

But remember, they're OLD EUROPE, so the dipsh*ts here in this country won't ever get it. If the FAUX NEWS team tells them something, they swallow it like the good little children they are.

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[empathy]

3. Good for Schroeder

Is it just me or has religion and politics in America been getting significantly more connected for a long time? Clinton clearly bought into it as a means of helping himself politically. Bush II has clearly pushed it even further. What happenned to liking the idea of the church and state as seperate?

[rkc3]

4. What's more interesting is that bush wants a secular gov't in Iraq...

while he's blurring the lines between church and state.

And Welcome to DU.

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LTR]

57. And guess who got the last laugh?

Bye!

[newyawker99]

29. Hi empathy!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[TwentyFive]

32. So true. We are going backwards.

Religion controls the mind, and is a sign the USA is in decline.

[JI7]

5. United States is a bit backwards from other "modern" western nations

people who don't believe in evolution and global warming are considered mainstream candidates. if people were not so ignorant they would be considered fringe. the same goes for those who campaign based on being anti gay. that kind of shit should not be accepted but is in america.

i see other western nations leaders debating on cspan at times and the conservative party members are very pro gay rights. they speak of equality and acceptance.

[Pharaoh]

6. Ukraine is taking it to the streets

apparently, they have more of a clue about their stolen election than we do......
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/11/22/uukraine.xml&sSheet=/portal/2004/11/22/ixportaltop.html

[cubsfan forever]

18. Never let it be said that the US is leading the

world in anything but moral depravity. And Welcome to DU! :-)

[newyawker99]

30. Hi Pharaoh!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[AspenRose]

47. We could stand to learn from the Ukranians right now

*sigh*

[AllegroRondo]

7. Gemany has a "Christian Democratic Party"

that is LESS taken over by Christians than the republicans here.

[lebkuchen]

8. Well, the 18th C. Enlightenment is foreign to Bush.

Bush wouldn't know the Enlightenment from an enema.

[Endangered Specie]

9. Yeah, Im sure most Germans know what can happen

when you claim God is on your side...

[Kellanved]

12. nah

That is actually a mistranslation.
The line is taken from the motto of the Teutonic Knights and later the Prussian royalty (and the Bavarians stole it). Hence the motto was used for the Prussian Army's uniform.

After WW1 the Weimar Republic adopted the Prussian Uniforms, the motto continued to be on the beltbuckles.
When the Nazis changed the state's symbol from the classic Eagle to "their" eagle, the motto remained unchanged.

The Federal Republic finally got rid of it.

[Endangered Specie]

16. I believe it means "God with us"

[Kellanved]

20. it does

The very same motto was on the French uniforms too. I'd say there is probably no European Army that has never used the line.

[Voltaire99]

28. All nations slaughter under the banner of God.

There's nothing unique in this regard about Germany.

But let's be frank about which nation menaces the world. Since the end of WW II, it is the United States which has slain millions of innocents in war--not Germany.

[rasbobbo]

37. napoleon bonaparte had it right

god is always on the side with the heaviest artillery

[Art_from_Ark]

48. Too bad the heaviest artillery didn't help Napoleon in Moscow

[GreenArrow]

11. Glory to god!

"The First Prince of the Theocratic States of America"

It happened quietly, with barely a mention in the media. Only the Washington Post dutifully reported it.<1> And only Kevin Phillips saw its significance in his new book, American Dynasty.<2> On December 24, 2001, Pat Robertson resigned his position as President of the Christian Coalition.

Behind the scenes religious conservatives were abuzz with excitement. They believed Robertson had stepped down to allow the ascendance of the President of the United States of America to take his rightful place as the head of the true American Holy Christian Church.

Robertson’s act was symbolic, but it carried a secret and solemn revelation to the faithful. It was the signal that the Bush administration was a government under God that was led by an anointed President who would be the first regent in a dynasty of regents awaiting the return of Jesus to earth. The President would now be the minister through whom God would execute His will in the nation. George W. Bush accepted his scepter and his sword with humility, grace and a sense of exultation.

As Antonin Scalia, Associate Justice of the Supreme Court explained a few months later, the Bible teaches and Christians believe “… that government …derives its moral authority from God. Government is the ‘minister of God’ with powers to ‘revenge,’ to ‘execute wrath,’ including even wrath by the sword…”<3>

George W. Bush began to wield the sword of God’s revenge with relish from the beginning of his administration, but most of us missed the sword play. I have taken the liberty to paraphrase an illustration from Leo Strauss, the father of the neo-conservative movement, which gives us a clue of how the hiding is done:


“One ought not to say to those whom one wants to kill, ‘Give me your votes, because your votes will enable me to kill you and I want to kill you,’ but merely, ‘Give me your votes,’ for once you have the power of the votes in your hand, you can satisfy your desire.”<4>

http://www.yuricareport.com/Dominionism/TheDespoilingOf...

Start learnin' your Bible.

[yellowcanine]

17. I thought the Magna Carta dispensed with the "Divine Right of Kings"

nonsense - and certainly the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution should have finished it off in America. Governments derive their moral authority from the people in a democracy, imo. But then I am a Democratic loser so my opinion doesn't count, according to the Gropinator.

[Demeter]

40. And Bush and Ashcroft FInished Off The Constitution and Bill of Rights

[Art_from_Ark]

49. The "divine right of kings" nonsense was alive and well

in the 18th century throughout Europe. Nearly every European coin of the period features the local king/queen and carries the letters "D.G." (or sometimes spelled out as "Dei Gratia") as part of its legend, meaning that the monarch was reigning because of the "Grace of God". In some parts of Europe, the concept lasted well into the 19th century-- and even today, there is still one country in Europe that puts "D.G." on its coins--

Can you guess which one?

[lthuedk]

24. My take on Bush theofascism:

http://www.light-to-dark.com/dubyas_commandments.html

http://www.light-to-dark.com/scolding.html

http://www.light-to-dark.com/beware_of_false_prophets.html

http://www.light-to-dark.com/bushworm.html

http://www.light-to-dark.com/bushcroft.html

[jbm]

50. great cartoons!

Thanks for the links!

[Laelth]

33. Thanks for that link.

Interesting reading, to be sure.

-Laelth

[GreenArrow]

39. de nada

I've posted it several times, but usually it gets no comments. Maybe it's too depressing?

[Laelth]

42. Well, it's a lot to read.

And it touches on things I knew about already, and I suppose many of us who stay informed are familiar with too. I knew about the CNP, for example. I knew about Rove's love of Machiavelli. And I knew about PNAC. What that essay does is make the connection between the three very clear, and it does so in a way I had not seen before. It's more comforting to think of christian fundamentalism and global domination as competing forces within the R. party. What's depressing is that this essay suggests they're not competing at all. It's a unified, centralized program.

Much more frightening. :scared:

-Laelth

[JNelson6563]

44. I was remiss

in not commenting the first time I followed your link. Great stuff.

Julie

[yellowcanine]

14. Europeans know the dangers of mixing religion and politics.

And Americans would know also if they knew their history. Difference here is that Europeans know their history and Americans don't.

[Brundle_Fly]

15. So odd to have

The Germans being the voice of reason.

[DavidDvorkin]

21. Not odd at all

The Nazi era was an aberration.

[Brundle_Fly]

23. Agreed

I just mean; in a round about way...dude, where's my country.

[NNN0LHI]

22. Holy history does repeat itself Batman

[KansDem]

27. "Schroeder questions Bush linking politics, God"

So do a good many Americans!

[RedCloud]

31. What to expect from a grandson of a Hitler worshiper?

I mean Prescott Bush getting rich off Auschwitz prison labor in the death camps. His grandson is cut out of the same mold. Now if he ordered the 9-11 attacks, then he has much more in common with Nazis than we can imagine.

[LynnTheDem]

35. It worked well for Hitler.

For a time.

[donhakman]

38. This is the Old America reloaded

Old Europe moved on
New Europe sees our fascism
The new American secularism was good while it lasted

[VegasWolf]

41. Good idea, let's base all our policies on an invisible man in the sky.

[indepat]

43. Welcome to the 21st century, Chancellor

[JNelson6563]

45. And yet some Dems urge us to follow suit

Sad. Damn sad I tell ya.

Julie

[struggle4progress]

52. kick

:kick:

[ChiciB1]

53. Auch To Liebe Mine Got!!

I just started a post and it disappeared when I hit something on my keyboard so this post may have ended up somewhere else. However, I lived in Germany for about 6 years, all before I was 12 years old. My father was in the Army and he was stationed there. The language isn't all that hard because I learned quite a bit in the American schools because it was required learning.

Here is a phrase I would especially like to send to El-Smirkle-Roy.

Du bist eine Dumkopft! Or perhaps schweina!! I'm doing this tongue in cheek because I know my spelling MUST be incorrect! I did learn a few more emphatic phrases, but will refrain.

Just couldn't help posting here though because some of the German has stayed with me for all these years. I'm now 59 years old!

I think I wrote Oh My Dear God, You are a DumbHead (???) or perhaps PIG! I'm sure someone can help with my mistakes.
Danke!

[Pachamama]

58. Och du lieber!

A) Bush ist ein Arschloch (German for A-hole) ARSCH for short
B) Bush ist ein Dummkopf (German for idiot, stupid)
C) Bush ist ein Schwein (German for pig)
D) Bush ist ein Schwanz (German for Dick - same word for a tail)
E) Bush saugt Schweine Schwanz (German for Bush sucks Pigs Dick)

Bush ist ein Arschloch, Dummkopf der Schweine Schwanz saugt!

There...that felt good :)

[ChiciB1]

59. I Knew I Had It Spelled Wrong

But thanks for the help!! I was very young but some things still stuck!!

61. Germany is established as a democracy, the US is NOT

"such is best left to more established democracies such as France, Germany, and others."

----

US Should “Stand Down” in Criticism of Ukraine Elections
-American election system has deeper problems
(SEATTLE) 11/24/04 - While there has been widespread criticism of recent elections in Ukraine, where Putin’s central power system may have unfairly trounced the pro-western candidate favored in election exit polls, far less attention has been given to similar (and perhaps worse) problems in US elections.

Like the Ukraine, exit polls in the US predicted a different winner than the winner claimed after the polls closed. Like the Ukraine, the most politically powerful candidate may (or may not) have used underhanded means to achieve victory.

However, unlike the Ukraine 2004 election—which is getting world-wide media attention, the chronic and widespread problem of non-enforcement of election law in US states has gotten little media attention. To wit, the US relies on the supposed enforcement of the rule of law by individual states, and the US Justice department—but that enforcement is therefore entrusted to partisan officials in the executive branch at both the federal and state level. So guess what? The rule of law is never enforced. When is the last time you heard about an enforcement action involving US Secretaries of State, US voting equipment, or the companies that make equipment?

For example, with regard to the infamous election 2000, despite that at the time, Florida law clearly required punch-card machines that were certified and tested so that they left no chads…nevertheless, that equipment never met the law, as evidenced by so many “hanging chad” stories in the media afterwards.

In fact in election 2004, the very same root problems of 2000 were again manifest, as (incredibly) Florida and other states relied on the very same regulatory system and standards that led to the 2000 debacle. Indeed, both the 2000 and 2004 elections relied on the very same book--the 1990 voting equipment standards. Standards that, it turns out, are enforced far less often than, let’s say, financial accounting standards in the 1990s…or more recently, FDA standards. In short, the rule of law in US elections relies on a book that is never read, much less applied.

Yet this time around, in 2004, with the more widespread use of electronic machines that don’t produce a paper ballot, problems were less obvious. So it has taken longer for warning signals to emerge. However, scientists and activists had found serious statistical anomalies with results, such as in the State of Florida. And most recently, voting investigator Bev Harris discovered (no kidding) “mysterious” brown garbage bags containing alternate copies of electronic machine receipts in a Florida county, even while other counties refuse to produce evidence that elections were carried out under the rule of law. Which means they probably weren’t. In fact, US election problems are so bad, even the US General Accounting Office knows election law isn’t enforced. After complaints about the recent 2004 election, the GAO warned nothing could be done by them to insure election law is met.

So the US should stand down in criticism of Ukraine elections, because its own elections aren’t carried out under the rule of law. Moreover, the current administration claiming victory is under one and possibly two criminal investigations, which weren’t adequately covered due to problems in the US media. Ultimately, the US has little, if any, democratic or moral high ground to stand on and criticize others—such is best left to more established democracies such as France, Germany, and others.