Reply #210: Well, to be perfectly frank, yeah, it is about me... (edited) [View All]

[A HERETIC I AM]

certainly in the context of what I wrote above.

(Edit added here) I tried to answer a couple of the points in your OP. Then I editorialized a little. Sorry.

Would you take your daughter to a Hooters?

If she wanted to go, sure. If you make the experience all about the women that work there, then its all about them, isn't it? If it's just a place to go and have a beer and a burger and to watch the game, then it isn't about the women at all, is it?

And if not, do you think there's any effect from her seeing the "Hooters" iconography, knowing that she herself has, or will have, breasts?

I'm not married. Never have been and likely never will be. I don't have any children. My last girlfriend did have a daughter however and she most certainly struggled with her self esteem and her self image, just as her mother did. I had nothing to do with that and as hard as I tried, the fact is, she didn't see herself the same way I saw her: as a lovely young lady with unlimited potential. And for what it's worth, this young lady was very well endowed at a very early age, so yes, she had boys and men staring at her chest as a 14 year old. There is no way in the world I can fully understand what she went through and how she dealt with it internally. I know how she dealt with it externally though. As I said, she struggled with her own self image every single day. I lived with this young lady for 3 years. I watched her grow up a little bit. I watched her struggle with Meth and alcohol. I watched her associate herself with the kind of boyfriends that I would rather she didn't. In retrospect I'm convinced much of her self esteem issues stemmed from her mother who had them in spades. That was the primary reason our relationship failed. It was impossible to stay in love with her because she didn't love herself. In one long, teary conversation, my Ex's daughter confessed she didn't like herself, didn't think she was pretty (she was) and hated her lot in life. It broke my heart because I knew, as a "walk on father" so to speak, that there was damned little I could do to change these things in any meaningful way. I just did my best to let her know that I loved her, that I cared for her, that I would always protect her and that if she ever needed me to come rescue her, I'd be there. (edit added here) Is that an answer to your question? No, it probably isn't. I don't know if the Hooters iconography had any effect on her at all, but I certainly know the rest of the world she lived in did. The Hooters Owl logo would have been the least of her and my worries.

How about listening to what women have to say about the experience of growing up with a female body in this culture, rather than what YOU think about YOUR perspective?

Well, I've been listening to you (or reading, anyway) and your perspective pretty much all evening. Look, I understand your point. I understand what it is you are trying to convey, truly I do. It is just that to a certain extent, I think you are tilting at a biological and evolutionary windmill here. You aren't going to change the way men think about women on a thread on DU (I know you know this, OK?) and your perspective, while completely rational, understandable, reasonable and lucid, in the larger scheme of things, means very little to most men precisely because it is about them as well. You are calling into question what seems to me to be a very basic biological drive in men - that they like to look at women - and there is damned little you or I or anyone are going to do to change it.