Reply #61: Really? I "jumped the shark"? Are you sure you feel comfortable using metaphors? [View All]

[LooseWilly]

So, "You say that to judge someone a bigot who is believes gay marriage is immoral requires that you know "why" they believe it is immoral." is not a fair statement of what you'd said?

Hmm, here's your quote: "To call someone a bigot, one has to know what their beliefs are."

What, praytell, is the difference between "to judge someone a bigot... requires that you know "why" they believe it is immoral" (my paraphrase of your statement) AND "To call someone a bigot, one has to know what their beliefs are."?

"why they believe it is immoral" (which I linked to bigotry) is not significantly different than "know what their beliefs are" They both imply that you have to have insight into the thought processes of a person to call them a bigot. Fair enough.

The obvious answer is that you will "know their beliefs", or, to use my paraphrase which was an attempt to clear up your awkward conflations of several steps of the logical/etiological processes of judgement "know "why" they believe it is immoral"... when they say they believe that gay marriage is immoral.

The pretext of the whole argument was that we were talking about a person who believed that "gay marriage is immoral". Your sudden switch to the "Have you ever considered that they might vote against gay marriage for other reasons?" is a complete jump off of the tracks of the suppositions that I was under the impression that the OP had set out for us.

Talk about jumping the shark.

If you want to treat that issue... fine. Have I ever considered that they might vote against it for other reasons than that they consider it immoral?? Sure I have... they might also vote against it because they're prejudiced douche bags... Do you really want me to enumerate more reasons that I can imagine that people might vote against gay marriage rights, besides their consideration that it's immoral? I can. How about, their priest/pastor/religious leader is a bigoted douche bag and the person in question is too mentally flabby to think for him/herself? Would you like more thoughts on the subject of your shark-jumped re-framing of the issue?

"Without talking to them how do you know what their thinking is? Do you care?" Really?... Did you not read what I'd written? Given the starting point that they believe that gay marriage is immoral I don't need to talk to them. They hold a bigoted opinion, and as a consequence of holding that bigoted opinion... they are bigots. Do I care what they are thinking?... as far as the judgement that they are bigots... no. I don't care. It is not relevant. If they think that voting against gay marriage is the only way to save the Earth from an invasion of space aliens.... and they think they're doing it for the good of the human race... it doesn't matter. They are still bigots.

As for your "epic fail assumption" that I know what they believe without asking them... Have you been smoking crack with Marion Barry? I make no such assumptions about anyone. I was making judgements starting from the given that they do believe that gay marriage is immoral. If they do not believe that, then I am not talking about them. I don't know what might have given you any other impression, as I never said anything about anyone who wasn't already "defined" as believing that.

If you believe that "gay marriage is immoral", then I believe you hold bigoted views. If you hold bigoted views, then I believe you are a bigot.

If you are a random person passing me on the street... I do not "pre-judge" you as being a bigot. If you stop, and explain to me that you believe that "gay marriage is immoral", then I will respond by explaining to you that you are a bigot.

And that is not prejudice, it is "post-judice". It is judgement based on facts discerned.

And frankly... I am shocked that you have the audacity to embarrass yourself with that response. That is a post-judgement of your critical thinking skills.

If you would like to have a discussion about how we are supposed to decide if people are bigoted before speaking with them, then you are obviously schizophrenic and assume that everyone has a system of pre-judgementalism to discuss.

If you are going to try to defend people whose opinion is that "gay marriage is immoral" by insisting that we need to ask them what their opinion is, then you are lacking in mental faculties, as we are talking about people whose opinions have already been determined.

If you don't understand the difference, then we'll have to begin with the fundamentals of critical thinking, and help you build the capacity to make rational distinctions.

If you are asking what steps have been made to determine the beliefs of a given individual... well, then you are making an incredibly specious argument... but I'll play along. Name the person, and I'll see if I can tell you what steps have been made to ask said person what his/her opinions are...