The response to Pope shows hypocrisy. (a worthwhile read)

[Hoping4Change]

The following is an excerpt of an opinion piece in the Toronto Star about the violence unleashed by the Pope's speech. It certainly expresses my feelings about what is happening.

"There's a moral vacuity in flagellating a pope for his selection of a pretty weird bit of ancient dialogue while ignoring the 800-pound gorilla in the room that is militant Islam. It is entirely true that most major religions are steeped in blood and, historically, the Catholic Church can match contemporary jihad brutality for brutality. But the Catholic Church has matured; it has acknowledged its wickedness and failures. It does not demand that the rest of the world cower before its might or threaten to blow up your stuff because of words or pictures, with a propensity toward hysteria over offence and grievance.

This is madness, but it's emboldened and legitimized by those who aren't so very maddened, who are afforded respect and public platforms and scholarly regard.

Sling all the mud you want at the Church, slander the pontiff, excoriate Christians and Jews and Hindus, but speak delicately, with cotton in your mouth, when the subject is Islam, however qualified those remarks, because the blow-back will crush you. The imbalance is staggering.

<<snip>>


Islam is a religion of peace. We're told this all the time...But I have difficulty reconciling this Islam to the other, the one that rampages and bludgeons. And I am dismayed by piety that hardly blinks sideways at barbarism.


ROSIE DIMANNO

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1158702614845&call_pageid=970599109774&col=Columnist969907621263

[niyad]

1. the catholic church still hides its pedophile priests, still regards

women as less than men, and as long as that is the case, I don't think much of how much it has "matured"

[Mandate My Ass]

3. Agreed

There is no room to talk. Pope Ratzy especially protects and rewards the vilest pedophiles and enablers.

Extremists of any religion are kooks who twist religion to fuel their hate and they all do it. I wish they'd all STFU about how evil the other guys are.

[Hoping4Change]

9. However the point is that critics of the Church have the right to

criticize the Church in no uncertain terms without fear that diehard Catholics are going to murder them.

[Mandate My Ass]

18. quite frankly

I feel more threatened by die-hard Christians here than die-hard Islamists elsewhere. I'm more likely to die of a burst appendix than an attack by extreme Islamists. I just don't live in fear of them. Period. I choose not to. Maybe they do hate us, they're not in much of a position to do anything about it without terrible repercussions.

I feel the Xtians (not the true Christians) want to take away my right to determine what I can and cannot do to my body and they have way too much influence on our government. :shrug:

[Bake]

21. Perhaps that's because you live HERE, not there.

Personally, I'm not too worried about muslim extremists here in MS. And I'm not on the headlines or cable news dissing them (although I failed to capitalize "muslim" -- does that get me a death sentence?).

Bake

[Mandate My Ass]

24. precisely my point

I don't understand the hype and fearmongering here in the U.S. that radical islamists want to behead me for being a westerner. Quite frankly, the body count directly contradicts the claim that muslims are engaging in a jihad on westerners, particularly on Christians. Quite the opposite seems to be the case. I'd be testy too if someone who rubs elbows with the giggling murderer started sounding just as ignorant and belligerent withr regard to my religion as he does.

[Bake]

31. You're also more likely to die of a burst appendix here

Than be murdered/beheaded/crucified/etc. by a Christian extremist here.

I'm not any fonder of the so-called "Religious Right" than you are. Nor am I a fan of current U.S. foreign policy.

Bake

[Hoping4Change]

22. I think people have to get beyond emotional language.

Bush wants and encourages "fear" of radical Islam. Radical Islamists fan "hate" of the West and encourage emotional excess to a precieved insults. Both parties encourage emotional reactions and both benefit when emotions are fanned. And when emotions are in play people are easy to manipulate.

[Mandate My Ass]

29. Here's some "hate" from an Xtian freeper about to go to Iraq

This screed was in response to a three-day anti-war teach in where I work. The topics included are the cost of the war, impact of occupation on women, the effect on the poor here and there, the erosion of civil liberties and what we can do.

Quite soon, this peabrain is going to be handed a gun and sent into a country that was invaded under false pretenses. Here is what he thinks of his mission and muslim people, whom he dehumanizes with such venomous hatred it gives me chills.

Couldn't agree with you more. We should pull out and put Saddam back to make things just like they were. Those idiot Iraqis wouldn't even know what to do with freedom if they had it, let alone how to earn it by helping our troops out and giving them a hand with the insurgents. I guess the desire to be oppressed runs in their genes.

The world should support their decision and allow them to live under a dictator once again. Lets get those murderous US troops out of there, Saddam's secret police will do a much better job at shedding blood since
they don't have to deal with all the bureaucracy of confirming a shot while a
man with a bomb strapped to his waist runs at them screaming his praises to a
fake god that we in the West are more ready to tolerate than Christ.

Yes, I don't like Bush either. He is a fuckup- a fuckup in the fact that he offered help to a people that are too sorry to accept it. I have several friends in Iraq and I just want you to know that you and people like you have eroded their morale like nothing else.

Unlike yourself or most others at this school I hail from Kentucky, a place so poor we have to pack our coal in at night and put it in the furnace to stay warm. We have to labor at something in order to eat instead of discussing things all day long. We fight your wars, provide your food, and keep the your electricity going while you people sit at home and sip champagne. So why do you even care?

XXXXX
Soon to be US Soldier (and murderer as you liberals like to say)

Now that's hate.

[elehhhhna]

53. Shit! I just spewed champagne all over my keyboard!

[Blackthorn]

40. You've only gotta worry about that if you want an abortion.

[Hoping4Change]

42. I am not giving xtian wackos a pass. I condemn anyone who

has not bothered to become aquianted with rational discourse. Irrationality reaches its zenith when Muslims burn churches and utter death threats to disprove the assertion that Islam is violent.

[elehhhhna]

52. Is that true in Belfast?

[muriel_volestrangler]

57. "We're not as bad as the other guys" isn't a great defence of a religion

or a religious leader; and it's not one that Catholics would normally want to use to defend the Pope. But it seems to be the only defence they have left at the moment. There aree loads of lreigious leaders who haven't set back interfaith relations in the past few weeks, and when compared to them, Benedict is a failure. So that's why he gets criticised; and that's not hypocrisy.

[Hoping4Change]

8. True but conservative Catholics aren't threatening death to

those who are making the allegations and more importantly critics of the Catholic Church are allowed by law to not just voice their contempt of the Church for its failings but also seek justice through the courts.

[ComerPerro]

10. no kidding. When is the Church gonna stop endorsing pedophiles?

[Hoping4Change]

14. But you have the ability to condemn these heinous crimes without

fear of retribution.

[ComerPerro]

15. Because the Chruch doesn't control our government yet

[Hoping4Change]

17. However the Church up until the Enlightenment did have power

and despite the long list of atrocities committed by the Church, it has accepted however reluctantly the separation of Church and state.

[Marnieworld]

11. not to mention their hateful views of gay people

ok I guess I mentioned it. ;-)

[Hoping4Change]

16. I am not a Catholic though my family is and I have profound

criticisms about the church. However you have the right to voice those criticisms without fear of starting a riot.

[treestar]

26. There are a lot of Muslims NOT rioting

There are some Catholics who might.

Why it is Muslims who must be judged as a group by the acts of the craziest of them, yet you wouldn't think it fair if the acts of crazy Catholics were attributed to you. Or all Catholics, including you, were judged by that.

People let the media create their perspective and then judge all by some shallow outward identification. Really evil.

[Hoping4Change]

32. Condemnations did not just come from fringe groups.

Heads of governments across the Muslim world as well as clerics jumped on the condemnation bandwagon.

I would have liked to have heard a Musilm leader say something to the effect that through-out history people have found fault with faiths other than their own and that many times these differences were based in a lack of understanding and that the Pope's remark show that misunderstandings still exist. IMO that would be the response of someone committed to peace.

[muriel_volestrangler]

58. Sounds like you wanted to hear what Syria's Grand Mufti said

On the Friday after the speech:

Syria's mufti, or senior exponent of Islamic law, said he hoped reports of the Pope's speech were wrong and Syrians wanted to cooperate to propagate divine values.

http://www.turkishweekly.net/news.php?id=38441

And then he said the clarifications from the Pope were "more than sufficient": http://www.asianews.it/view.php?l=en&art=7261

[warrens]

12. When do they give back the stuff they stole from natives

In Mexico, Central America, South America, etc. etc.

This nazi gets up and starts blasting into a religion that is for the most part peaceful and law-abiding, and they act surprised that people are insulted? Protests against the pope are somehow uncivilized?

If the author wants to play the "immature" game, well, Catholicism is 700 years older than Islam, so give them a few centuries. Wanna talk about what Catholicism was like in the 1400s?

How about the Hindu massacres of Muslims in Kashmir? Or the Catholic massacres of Muslims in Serbia/Croatia? Who the FUCK does this dimbulb think he or she is kidding?

[Hoping4Change]

20. Protests are uncivilized when buildings get torched and mobs

demand the death of someone.

Your remark that Islam isn't as old as Christianity should should be given some latitude is absurd especially given the fact that during the Christian dark ages Islam was the intellectual superpower in the world. Its thanks to Islam we have such a thing a western civilization since it was Muslim scholarship that saved the copies of Greek manuscripts. Therefore what we see historically is the Muslims since the Middle Ages have let slide their intellectual development so much so that they lack the ability to grasp the fundamentals of reasoned debate.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

23. ...

"Therefore what we see historically is the Muslims since the Middle Ages have let slide their intellectual development so much so that they lack the ability to grasp the fundamentals of reasoned debate."

It strikes me that the intellectual development of some Westerners since the Middle Ages has been greatly exaggerated.

[Hoping4Change]

The point remains that intellectually the Islamic world has stagnated.

Not just stagnated but gone downhill.

[Hoping4Change]

27. The point remains that intellectually the Islamic world has stagnated.

Not just stagnated but gone downhill.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

2. That macaca who shot that nun...

just shows that George Allen was right about those macacas.

:sarcasm:

[Goblinmonger]

5. Oh, no, you dint.

:spray:

Best laugh all week

:rofl:

:thumbsup:

[JustFiveMoreMinutes]

4. True, but....

The insensitivity in the light of world chaos should not be excused. Neither should it be used for violence either.

However, while I was meandering through the Yahoo Bulletin Boards the other day, a thread was talking about the Pope and the reactionary response to his words. A poster said if the Muslim community would only damn the violence and bombings, perhaps they would be taken seriously.

Another poster then promptly responded with approximately 10 links where the Islamic groups did just that. They detested and denigrated the violence being perpetuated in the name of their religion.

The sad thing is, we in America either never get much word of this (intentionally?) or we pay no attention to it because we have in our minds what we want to hear, not what is there for us to hear.

The Pope's words damned an entire group for the actions of the fringe.

Should we likewise spurn Christianity in America because of Fred Phelps, women clinic bombings, hate groups such as the KKK which embrace the Christian Faith? We recognize those fringes as fringes because we are sympathetic to those like us. However, the Muslims are foreign to us, therefore we fear what we dont know.

Better a dead snake than to get close enough to see it's not poisonous is our mantra I guess.

[Malikshah]

6. Great points

I wish more would bear that in mind before starting the millionth thread on the issue.

[Hoping4Change]

13. I agree that the remark is insensitive however the

condemnations did not come from fringe groups. Heads of governments across the Muslim world jumped on the condemnation bandwagon.

I would have liked to have heard a Musilm leader say something to the effect that through-out history people have found fault with faiths other than their own and that many times these differences were based in a lack of understanding and that the Pope's remark show that misunderstandings still exist. IMO that would be the response of someone committed to peace.

[JustFiveMoreMinutes]

19. Hmmm, can't argue with you there

And I sure don't want to rationalize it either, but since I didn't read any Muslim leader's full text of condemnation (which of course is much different than inciting violence), I'll just have to go with your insight.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

7. Q. Why do the muslims hate the Pope?

A. Bad sportsmanship. A ruthless minority of people seems to have forgotten certain good old-fashioned virtues. They just can't stand seeing the other fellow win. If these people would just play the game...

[MrPrax]

25. Oh Torstar thinks the Pope is misunderstood...

Pope chastises Canada on gay marriage, abortion

September 8, 2006

VATICAN CITY (AP) -- Pope Benedict XVI hit out Friday at Canada's laws allowing same-sex marriage and abortion, saying they result from Catholic politicians ignoring the values of their religion.

"In the name of `tolerance' your country has had to endure the folly of the redefinition of spouse, and in the name of `freedom of choice' it is confronted with the daily destruction of unborn children," the pope told a group of bishops from Ontario.

Such laws, he said, are the result of "the exclusion of God from the public sphere."

He lamented that Catholic politicians yielded to "ephemeral social trends and the spurious demands of opinion polls."

CNN I

Real class act...is he being misunderstood here. Cant' have it bother ways -- you can't pretend to be an unreproachable religious figure on faith and then go ahead and make political statements...especially when you wrote a book complaining about relativism in politics and the fact that Islam mixes religion and politics too much...

:shrug:

But sure it's probably the media getting his lecture wrong and misrepresenting it LIKE:

"In the Church, priests also are sinners. But I am personally convinced that the constant presence in the press of the sins of Catholic priests, especially in the United States, is a planned campaign, as the percentage of these offenses among priests is not higher than in other categories, and perhaps it is even lower.

"In the United States, there is constant news on this topic, but less than 1 percent of priests are guilty of acts of this type. The constant presence of these news items does not correspond to the objectivity of the information nor to the statistical objectivity of the facts."

-- from "Cardinal Ratzinger Sees a Media Campaign Against Church," Zenit.org, December 3, 2002

So it's the media (again) getting the message wrong...he's AOK and stem cells have souls... :crazy:

[Hoping4Change]

30. Thank you for illustrating my point. This is a perfect

illustration that if people have issues with the Pope's remark, the issues can be dealt with rationally without resorting to violence. Don't like what someone says then articulate a reasoned response.

[saltpoint]

49. If this Pope is old-fashioned and very conservative, and he is,

he is nevertheless more modern than most of the radical Muslims who are reliving the Medieval era of rampant vengeance.

Not day-to-day devotional Muslims. Radical Muslims.

I read the entire address Benedict gave and did not feel he was summoning the faithful for a merciless Crusade into the Middle East.

"The Pope quoted a controversial ancient dialogue from the 14th century. It pissed me off so bad I think I'll firebomb a church."

"The Pope's speech dissed the Prophet. I'm so outraged I'll just kill a nun."

I am pretty much appalled by the Pope's treatment of dissident priesst like Matt Fox, by his refusal to budge on ordination of women, by his complicity to deny communion to John Kerry, and on and on. I'm a liberal and a conservative anything isn't much to my liking, whether it's a pope or a politician or a country-and-western singer.

But how insecure do you have to be to kill a nun over a controversial quotation? Can activist lesbians and gay men kill their local Assemblyperson if in Washington, DC Rick Santorum publicly denounces a Supreme Court decision that decriminalizes same-sex acts? How stable can you be said to be if remarks made by the Pope prompt you to unchecked fury? To a point where you'd actually attempt to destroy a building or murder a woman?

The Toronto STAR piece is provocative and interesting. Thank you for posting it.

[Hatalles]

51. I agree w/ you and I'm sure you agree with this....

Muslims have a right to be offended. This does not excuse any sort of violence carried out by a few extremists... but it does not mean Muslims have no right to take offense.

"The Pope quoted a controversial ancient dialogue from the 14th century and dissed the Prophet. I think he's an idiot. End of story. Now to get to work... "

Of course, these Muslims aren't appealing enough for the corporate media. And if it isn't on TV, it must not exist.

[saltpoint]

56. I was careful to distinguish between the day-to-day devotionist in

Islam for whom Mohammed is a figure of calm and affirmation, and the minority freakshow radicals who torch a Colonel Sanders fastfood joint if they can't bomb the American embassy.

And don't get me started on media coverage of world events. You'll have ME torching a Colonel Sanders joint! Or weeping uncontrollably, one or the other.

When the mainstream electronic media fail to cover more than one angle, sometimes the letters to the editor in many papers can pick up the slack. The New York TIMES has run several letters this week which are very well-considered. I haven't been nearly as impressed with the TIMES' editorial board this week on this subject, but a handful of readers have risen to the occasion and come through with some really good stuff.

[Zodiak]

59. Has the dead nun been connected to the Popes statements?

Because, according to the BBC, the incident has not been connected. Not that it doesn't look bad, but before we assign blame and get in a huff, we should find out.

[saltpoint]

61. Agreed. And I think the media also must realize that almost all

Muslims on earth do not react in violent ways to world headlines.

Not much emphasis is placed in these news coverages about the 98-99% of practicing Muslims who do not firebomb churches. It doesn't jack up the ratings the way a firebombing might, so they give us Muslims as volatile monsters instead of peace-directed devotionists.

[MrPrax]

60. Turn a negative into a positive?

Excuse me...

No you misunderstood -- the Pope is a political figure. Political figures makes statements and sometimes those statements arouse people to anger and solutions of violence.

The Iranian PM makes political statements, the Israelis don't like his statements, and so Israel and the US resort to threats of violence...suggesting the motives of Israel and the US are entirely based on religious dogma is ridiculous. To ignore the shocking use of violence and bloodshed over the past 5 years by the 'Xtian side' is a little much for both you and the Pope.

I think your being a little naive and dishonest to categorize all acts of violence as having a religious motive simply because you ignore the political context where these actors also operate. You know as well as I that you can go over to Freeperville and find all sorts of violent responses to even the most moderate things Hillary Clinton might say. You know that American talk jocks like Coulter and Imus regularly issue statements reflecting a violent solution to political problems.

But we don't normally focus only on their religious upbringing in order to trash their own culture and way of life. We don't normally suggest that Coulter or Glenn Beck are symptomatic of an intellectual stagnation in America -- or the source of the enormous amount of violence that occurs in the US everyday.

The Pope or you can't be that stupid to think that people won't fight for what they believe in -- regardless of whether you like those beliefs...and to erase our own culture's penchance for violence is a little dishonest.

[WildEyedLiberal]

28. Kicked and rec'd

The responses to your thread indicate that people here are incapable of criticizing violent extremist Islamic fanatacism. Instead they're criticizing the Catholic Church. Does saying that the Catholic Church has a bloody past somehow exonerate radical Islam?

This thread proves the point of the OP. It's kosher to be as nasty and virulent as you want when it comes to Christianity but OMG don't dare state the truth about violent Islam because then you must be a freeper.

REAL LIBERALS don't make excuses for hate, violence, and murder, NO MATTER WHO DOES IT. PERIOD.

If you don't think Islamic extremism is a "big deal," then maybe you should move to Saudi Arabia, Syria, Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan, etc and see how fast you get jailed or executed for breaking Sharia law. In radical Islamic countries, women and gays are treated worse than animals are legally allowed to be treated in the United States. If you do not care about the persecution of those people - if you would overlook the evil because it suits your narrow morally bankrupt political agenda - then you are NO LIBERAL. Period.

[Hoping4Change]

39. Well said. I couldn't agree more that "liberals don't make

excuses for for hate, violence, and murder, NO MATTER WHO DOES IT."

And I too am appalled with knee-jerk responses that exonerate radical Islam on the basis of Catholic failings. I don't think that people grasp the concept that Liberal ideology requires people to be able to look at faith critically. If people want to conserve and protect cherished beliefs from rationally inquiry they aren't liberal. People who don't want cherished notions attacked are conservative.

[smirkymonkey]

50. Thank YOU!

What is still so baffling to me is that so many self-professed liberals are defending regimes that would persecute or even execute them for their views if they were citizens of the above mentioned nations. Why? I really don't get it.

Most of these governments stand for exactly the opposite of what we at DU claim to stand for, yet there is no lack of support for them as we can see.

Ok, How many people here would rather live in a country that practices Sharia law than in the "oppressive" United States? Raise your hand.

[DireStrike]

33. Meh... motes, logs, eyes... etc.

Everybody should stop condemning each other... especially groups and institutions that have major problems...

It makes me uncomfortable though. This is sort of a see-saw topic; it can be interpreted either way. To fall into a pro-western viewpoint feeds the "clash of cultures" idea. Not saying that's what's happening here, but surely many are guilty of it.

[crim son]

34. My thought is that it's true; one must tread softly

when creeping around the subject of Islam. That's well established. I don't like it and I don't understand it, but it's well established. Why then would the supposed representative of the Prince of Peace make a hugely public statement about the inherent evils of the Muslim religion? In the same way that I won't burn a flag, or shit on the bible, or call an African American a nigger, I'm not going to insult Islam. But Ratzinger did.

Christianity has matured? Maybe it's at about age seven right now, while Islam is in its terrible twos. I'm not saying it's right and yes, I'm darned glad I'm not a woman living in a country where the mullahs rule, but nevertheless those of us who understand the potential repercussions of our hate speech ought not make it. Ratzinger knew and he spoke anyway. Stupidity? or guile? I have enough dark-ages type conservative Catholic relatives to believe it could well be the latter.

[Hoping4Change]

36. The point is that he wasn't stating his opinion. He was stating

an opinion of an Byzantine emperor who was having a discussion with a Persian who was Muslim. It is no different than you quoting Bush to make a point only to be accused that you agree with Bush.

The argument that Islam isn't as old a Christianity doesn't hold water because Islamic scholarship blossomed in the Dark Ages when Christians were hell-bent on destroying every Greek manuscript. Islam saved Western civilization from Christian fanatics who wanted to bury classical Greek learning. The tragedy is that since then the Muslim world has stagnated intellectually and gone downhill.

[crim son]

38. I wasn't speaking of chronological age.

Note: I'm not an idiot. And, check this out: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2162165&mesg_id=2162165

... the best response I've found to your "point".

[Hoping4Change]

41. This emotive rant is completely off the mark.

It is irrrational to equate an negitive opinion about an idea/religion to an attack on people. If I say to you that the ideas expressed by bornagainhooligan are irrational, it would be wrong for you to feel insulted, claiming that my opinion of his ideas is an personal assault on you or him.

The Pope did not engage in name-calling. Period. So to draw parallels to KKK is absurd.

[crim son]

43. You are of course entitled to your opinion

even though it's off-base :evilgrin: Really, I strenuously disagree. I fear we will not convince one another.

[Hoping4Change]

44. But I am not stating an opinion. It is a statement of fact that

expressing an opinion or for that matter attacking an idea is not commensurate with attacking a person.

[crim son]

47. Remember when the shrub said "Bring it on!"

It was an asinine thing to say... bound to inflame. To my mind, whether the Pope was quoting an ancient source or stating his own opinion, it was an asinine thing to say. I believe he has a responsibiity not to inflame, because he is "the" christian authority to so many, non-christians included.

Your point is not hard to understand.

[Hoping4Change]

62. Using your logic blacks in the US should never have demanded

equal rights because it inflamed the sensitivities of bigots; and women should never have become suffragettes because their outspoken demands inflamed male sensitivities; and homosexuals I suppose should confine themselves to closets since their mere existence inflames religious sensitivities.

[Homer Wells]

35. Islam is still about 500 years younger

than Christianity. I know that Christianity takes its root from beliefs that started around 2K years ago, but anyway.
Perhaps Islam, like Christianity, needs to go through the same violent spasms that the Catholics went thru during the late Middle Ages.
I think the whole bogus "My God is better than Your God" is a major crock, but it seems to be the human condition.:eyes:

[Hoping4Change]

37. This argument keeps surfacing and its completely empty for 2 reasons.

1. Western civilization is not the product of evolution, evolution only explains biological development it doesn't explain historical development. China, Japan, India, some of the oldest civilizations remained unchanged for centuries; none of them evolved into democracies. Democracy is a decision taken by humans it is not inevitable.

2. Scholarship and learning blossomed in the early centuries of Islam. If it weren't for Muslims the West would never have come out of the Dark Ages because the Christian fathers were hellbent on burning every Classic manuscript they could lay their hands on. It was Muslim scholars who treasured and preserved Aristotle etc. If they hadn't saved Classical manuscripts the West would not have had a Renaissance which was the "rebirth" of Classical learning. So Islam had reached a pinnacle of learning, they were a intellectual powerhouse but they let it slide.

http://www.scienceandyou.org/articles/ess_06.shtml

[geek tragedy]

55. Well, let's not forget that the West conquered the Islamic lands

and injected the very worst of Western political ideologies into the area.

Post-colonial dictatorships and kingdoms, totalitarian regimes based on Saddam, Petrosheikhs selling out their country to foreign oil companies.

The Islamic world is in rough shape, but the West certainly kicked them down a few notches.

[katinmn]

45. It seems the Western World is making its mind up about Islam

at this very moment.

Will it accept it as a co-equal religion and culture, or will those who want to erect strong walls succeed in painting Islam as a mysterious dark force to be feared?

The pope, the US preznit, others on TV, are helping shape the opinions of non-Muslims as we sit and watch the wars rage on.

As cultures collide. Very interesting time.

[Bjorn Against]

46. Stop the attacks on Islam

The FACT is that there have been FAR MORE Islamic people killed by the US government in the past five years than there has been Americans killed by Islamic extremists.

I condemn those extremists to kill, but to suggest all the violence is from Islam is a lie. Period. Christians are the dominant force in American politics and they are the ones leading this war that has resulted in tens of thousands of deaths.

Now it would not be any more fair to blame Christianity than it would be to blame Islam, but the blindness in this society astounds me.

[Hamlette]

48. not quite

remember Muslims were the tolerant faith during much of the last millenium.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,1874653,00.html

The early conquests in Persia and Byzantium after the Prophet's death were inspired by political rather than religious aspirations. Until the middle of the eighth century, Jews and Christians in the Muslim empire were actively discouraged from conversion to Islam, as, according to Qur'anic teaching, they had received authentic revelations of their own. The extremism and intolerance that have surfaced in the Muslim world in our own day are a response to intractable political problems - oil, Palestine, the occupation of Muslim lands, the prevelance of authoritarian regimes in the Middle East, and the west's perceived "double standards" - and not to an ingrained religious imperative.

But the old myth of Islam as a chronically violent faith persists, and surfaces at the most inappropriate moments. As one of the received ideas of the west, it seems well-nigh impossible to eradicate. Indeed, we may even be strengthening it by falling back into our old habits of projection. As we see the violence - in Iraq, Palestine, Lebanon - for which we bear a measure of responsibility, there is a temptation, perhaps, to blame it all on "Islam". But if we are feeding our prejudice in this way, we do so at our peril.

[Lilith Velkor]

54. *cough*Ireland*ahem*

'Scuse me, something musta got stuck.