Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

Gun Control & RKBA

Showing Original Post only (View all)
 

rDigital

(2,239 posts)
Sat Aug 25, 2012, 02:28 AM Aug 2012

NYC: Empire State Shooting: ALL bystanders were shot by police [View all]

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national/2012/08/just-how-many-bystanders-did-new-york-police-shoot/56187/

Update: The Guardian is reporting that the nine bystanders who were shot (that didn't include the shooter's target) were all shot by police, and that Jeffrey Johnson never fired on police.

The most disturbing detail about Friday's fatal shooting in Midtown Manhattan is the fact that the wounded included bystanders shot by police, and the latest news suggests stray police bullets may account for "most or all" of those wounded. Police Commissioner Ray Kelly confirmed that at least some of the injuries came from stray police bullets as cops opened fire on the gunman who aimed at them, but the police haven't said how many. Rather, that detail comes from the math reporters are doing with the number of rounds police have confirmed were fired.

Fortunately, most of the injuries were minor. As one victim who as hit in the arm told The New York Times: "I guess, you know, stuff happens."

The Times' James Barron and David Halbfinger and William K. Rashbaum introduced the arithmetic reporting: "Some of those injured might have been shot by the two police officers, who fired 16 rounds at the gunman, Jeffrey Johnson 58, said Police Commissioner Raymond W. Kelly — based on the number of people shot and the fact that Mr. Johnson’s gun held only eight rounds." The New York Times Metro twitter account followed up with this accounting: "Johnson had 8 bullets max. Shot 5 at [victim Steve] Ercolino, 2 left in gun, 1 unfired on ground," suggesting that the only ones Johnson fired were at his intended victim -- although that doesn't necessarily mean all of them found their mark.


The killer didn't shoot at police, but the police shot him and 9 other people. The shooter murdered his old boss and didn't fire at anyone else. It sounds like Bloomberg and the other people running NYC hate guns SO much that they don't even want their officers adequately trained.

The NYPD's handguns have triggers on their guns that are OVER 12 pounds to fire. The most important item for accuracy, after proper grip/purchase, is trigger control. It's very hard to control a sub 2 pound gun with a 13 pound trigger. The hoplophobia rampant in NYC has now almost cost 9 people their lives at the hands of New York's Finest.

I am a certified pistol instructor, and I know poor training when I see it. I've taught 70 year olds how to shoot fist sized groups rapid fire at 20 feet. This is without advanced training, just the fundamentals.

Every article I've read on the subject seems to point to a systemic problem within the NYPD with regards to firearms training. NYC has the seventh largest standing army in the world and quite possibly the poorest firearms curriculum as well.

Here's an exerpt from one such article:
http://www.handgunsmag.com/2012/02/16/the-nypd-and-the-kahr-k-9-no-substitute-for-training/

The NYPD is apparently incapable of training its officers to keep their finger off the trigger, so instead of increasing or improving their training (which would cost the department money, as well as be an acknowledgement that the training was the problem), they mandate that the gun companies provide them modified weapons.
 
I don’t dislike Glocks, I love Glocks.  I carry a Glock every day, and am in fact wearing one right now as I write this.  However, Glocks equipped with the 12-lb New York Plus trigger are an abomination. A few years ago at an editorial roundtable, the InterMedia Outdoors staff had a friendly competition involving a Glock with such a trigger.  Everyone involved reported that the pistol was nearly impossible to shoot.  G&A’s Handgun Editor Pat Sweeney (a veteran pistol competitor and Master-Class USPSA shooter) won the contest, but to do so, he used a technique he wouldn’t recommend anyone use—he was pulling the trigger with both his index fingers. A 12-lb trigger on a Glock only makes it harder to shoot fast and accurately, thereby increasing the chances that an officer’s bullet won’t end up where he or she intended.

One of the most important steps in firearms training is trigger control. The NYPD couldn't keep their recruits fingers off the trigger until ready to fire. If they can't follow basic firearms discipline, how can they be trusted to possess firearms in public? My students master the 4 rules of firearms safety within hours, why can't the NYPD do it? The only mass shooting in NYC yesterday was carried out by those hired to protect it.
215 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
12+ pound trigger pull?! Simo 1939_1940 Aug 2012 #1
The 12 pound Glock triggers ManiacJoe Aug 2012 #2
I think there's the "NY-1" and the "NY-2" trigger Euromutt Aug 2012 #101
It's due to outdated training Reasonable_Argument Aug 2012 #108
Glocks have a little slack in their triggers as well before the break. Ashgrey77 Aug 2012 #134
i'm not a gun user, or any manner of expert; but, i agree with your comments. marasinghe Aug 2012 #3
There is a certain tendency in these situations LuvNewcastle Aug 2012 #5
If all those bystanders had guns, this wouldn't have happened! Fuddnik Aug 2012 #4
Surely you can cite to a Citizen hitting nine bystanders in a self-defense shooting. PavePusher Aug 2012 #115
"Professional Police Officers" is now an oxymoron... Cooley Hurd Aug 2012 #6
You can't really blame them Reasonable_Argument Aug 2012 #8
No, they are 100% to blame. They should know their firearm's capabilities and limitations... Cooley Hurd Aug 2012 #9
I understand your anger Reasonable_Argument Aug 2012 #10
Go to the range and get fully acclimated to the firearm. Cooley Hurd Aug 2012 #11
So you're saying CCW holders who go to the range once a month or more shadowrider Aug 2012 #12
Are all CCW holders being paid by tax dollars to protect the public? Cooley Hurd Aug 2012 #14
That wasn't in your statement. It's called moving the goalposts. n/t shadowrider Aug 2012 #17
Cops are, by definition, police officers. "Police officer" is a profession. Cooley Hurd Aug 2012 #18
Significant goalpost movement shadowrider Aug 2012 #21
Oy vey. Let me find the crayons... Cooley Hurd Aug 2012 #22
Crayons not needed. shadowrider Aug 2012 #26
Perhaps those 9 victims should ask for a refund from their paid protectors. 4th law of robotics Aug 2012 #61
They should certainly be compensated... Cooley Hurd Aug 2012 #64
CCW holders who go to the range once a month or more... atreides1 Aug 2012 #177
I agree on both counts Reasonable_Argument Aug 2012 #13
Then, most cops shouldn't be in the job to begin with. Cooley Hurd Aug 2012 #15
Most of the posters here Reasonable_Argument Aug 2012 #16
I am in favor of preservation of the 2nd amendment. Cooley Hurd Aug 2012 #19
Well not to get too far afield Reasonable_Argument Aug 2012 #20
Effective: close gun show loopholes nationally. Cooley Hurd Aug 2012 #23
Three questions for you. hack89 Aug 2012 #25
1. Make it federal law. Cooley Hurd Aug 2012 #30
the commerce clause could prevent number one gejohnston Aug 2012 #38
Most gun shows are put on by vendors from multiple states... Cooley Hurd Aug 2012 #41
And those vendors are required to obey all existing gun laws. hack89 Aug 2012 #44
1. They can't make it federal law - the Constitution gets in the way hack89 Aug 2012 #42
And *you've* forgotten about Virginia Tech, where the killer used "normal sized" clips... friendly_iconoclast Aug 2012 #91
Would these restrictions apply to police as well? n/t PavePusher Aug 2012 #116
A .45 with a clip AnJo1 Aug 2012 #168
Your answers are NOT effective. Here is why: GreenStormCloud Aug 2012 #50
Got it. You're an absolutist regarding the 2nd amendment... Cooley Hurd Aug 2012 #51
You ducked the specific reasons I gave. GreenStormCloud Aug 2012 #56
My answers were as elementary as can be... Cooley Hurd Aug 2012 #63
You made no attempt to rebut my statements. N/T GreenStormCloud Aug 2012 #68
...because they didn't merit rebuttal? Cooley Hurd Aug 2012 #69
Like I said, That is why my side is winning the national debate on this issue. GreenStormCloud Aug 2012 #98
Merit. Straw Man Aug 2012 #191
Looks like he's doing this: shadowrider Aug 2012 #71
You seem to have cotton in your ears...er..eyes as it were.. pipoman Aug 2012 #129
Another NRA talking point... DanTex Aug 2012 #211
That is not an NRA talking point gejohnston Aug 2012 #212
Tell it to the House Judiciary Committee pipoman Aug 2012 #213
"I personally find the sport of murdering mammals distasteful," rl6214 Aug 2012 #210
It take 3/4 of the states to ratify an amendment. GreenStormCloud Aug 2012 #32
Good. Let's get started. Cooley Hurd Aug 2012 #33
Shouldn't that be "I'll get started"? Let us know how it goes... friendly_iconoclast Aug 2012 #92
You do know that Jenoch Aug 2012 #180
This post would appear to be in conflict with your post number 19 jbgood1977 Dec 2012 #215
A NYC Detective told me a story formercia Aug 2012 #47
I would have just thrown the whole damn gun away NT Trunk Monkey Aug 2012 #49
Sounds like he was either A) professional enough to realize his gun wasn't the answer... Cooley Hurd Aug 2012 #52
A real professional would keep all his equipment in top shape. GreenStormCloud Aug 2012 #58
He should check EVERY possible aspect of his weapon just as I check every possible aspect... Cooley Hurd Aug 2012 #65
Do you fly a Cessna or a 757? shadowrider Aug 2012 #73
Do you fire a .22 or a Howitzer? Cooley Hurd Aug 2012 #75
I was just curious. for the record, I fire a .40. A .22 is too small and a howitzer is too expensive shadowrider Aug 2012 #78
In the spirit of disclosure, and because I respet your candor... Cooley Hurd Aug 2012 #79
You too shadowrider Aug 2012 #80
Or too damned lazy to clean his gun NT Trunk Monkey Aug 2012 #72
Agree to a point bakpakr Aug 2012 #89
I don't think you've really thought out your proposals very well. PavePusher Aug 2012 #117
Tend to agree with you a bit but bakpakr Aug 2012 #122
I disagree, but I do appreciate your reasoned response without insults or slurs n/t shadowrider Aug 2012 #125
Have you ever been in a gun fight? Trunk Monkey Aug 2012 #34
Well, pilots are trained to NOT lose their heads during an emergency... Cooley Hurd Aug 2012 #36
Bet they'd lose their heads if someone was shooting at them while they're trying shadowrider Aug 2012 #37
Yes, we are trained to do one thing, first and foremost, in ANY emergency... Cooley Hurd Aug 2012 #40
I see your point but I want to ask a couple of questions. Trunk Monkey Aug 2012 #48
1) Yes, a choking-smoke-filled cabin. Cooley Hurd Aug 2012 #66
Generally speaking, in-flight emergencies HALO141 Aug 2012 #173
Yes you can. They made a bad decision and should have to stand behind it. Ashgrey77 Aug 2012 #139
From the videos I've seen, HALO141 Aug 2012 #174
I wouldn't let ... holdencaufield Aug 2012 #7
And these are professionals. Imagine the carnage if some concealed-carry yahoo started shooting. DanTex Aug 2012 #24
Please show where a CCWer has mowed down 9 people with missed shots. GreenStormCloud Aug 2012 #28
He can't. friendly_iconoclast Aug 2012 #94
because the average "yahoo" actually goes the range gejohnston Aug 2012 #29
LOL. Yeah, the average yahoo gun nut is better trained than the NYPD. Now that was funny! DanTex Aug 2012 #31
Please feel free to cite an instance in which a permit holder hit 9 innocent people NT Trunk Monkey Aug 2012 #35
There are plenty of instances of permit holders shooting people accidentally (including themselves). DanTex Aug 2012 #39
can you find them? gejohnston Aug 2012 #43
You mean like this guy? DanTex Aug 2012 #45
Here in Texas we have to meet the same standard that the police do. GreenStormCloud Aug 2012 #55
who said anything about chasing anyone? gejohnston Aug 2012 #81
Unfortunately, this is just another case of the ever moving goal posts. rDigital Aug 2012 #83
With their fantastic requirements only 1%ers like Donald Trump get carry permits rDigital Aug 2012 #76
The cops are better trained on the laws of their city/state glacierbay Aug 2012 #46
For a police officer, qualification is an annual or biannual chore. Glaug-Eldare Aug 2012 #53
Actually yeah 4th law of robotics Aug 2012 #62
What is your knowledge on NYPD's firearms training? rDigital Aug 2012 #82
Gun nuts shoot for pleasure krispos42 Aug 2012 #147
My S&W Model 642 snub nosed .38 caliber revolver has a trigger pull of about 12 pounds. ... spin Aug 2012 #93
Can you cite instances of that actually happening? 4th law of robotics Aug 2012 #60
Trained professionals? Straw Man Aug 2012 #194
Love Your 20/20 Hindsight. (nt) Paladin Aug 2012 #27
A black eye for the NYPD. burnsei sensei Aug 2012 #54
"The only mass shooting in NYC yesterday was carried out by those hired to protect it." OneTenthofOnePercent Aug 2012 #57
Clearly NYC should disarm civilians even more 4th law of robotics Aug 2012 #59
WTF with the NYT? BlueNinja Aug 2012 #67
Every turd in NYC bows to Gloomy-Bloomie, get used to it. rDigital Aug 2012 #86
I honestly, cannot fathom, just how incompetent that really is. virginia mountainman Aug 2012 #70
Don't worry. Only the police should have guns cause they've been trained and stuff n/t shadowrider Aug 2012 #74
At 12 lbs, why don't they issue bows and arrows instead? nt Xipe Totec Aug 2012 #77
That's funny you say that because rDigital Aug 2012 #87
Interesting to see those who... sarisataka Aug 2012 #84
If you're familiar with police firearms training, you'll see that flurry shooting isn't a last rDigital Aug 2012 #88
Unfortunately true sarisataka Aug 2012 #100
I think we'd do well to step back from the fray for a moment Glaug-Eldare Aug 2012 #85
Bloomberg has the NYPD so afraid of guns that the cops don't get trained to use them properly. nt rDigital Aug 2012 #90
You are being sarcastic, and it is a good LOL, BUT you are close to the truth I bet... virginia mountainman Aug 2012 #95
Perfect example of why regular cops should not be armed. Starboard Tack Aug 2012 #96
This isn't England glacierbay Aug 2012 #97
Unfortunately you are right. It isn't England in this regard. Starboard Tack Aug 2012 #104
That's deep, Mr. Tack. (no sarcasm/joking) nt rDigital Aug 2012 #110
Better by far this isn't England... Clames Aug 2012 #123
Pity you didn't stay to get an education Starboard Tack Aug 2012 #132
No pity. Got a much better one in this country. Clames Aug 2012 #141
I don't blame them. Much easier here. Starboard Tack Aug 2012 #146
Typical snide bullshit. Straw Man Aug 2012 #195
Still living up to your SN I see. Starboard Tack Aug 2012 #205
Still avoiding addressing the content of my posts, I see. Straw Man Aug 2012 #214
If NYC cops would learn gejohnston Aug 2012 #99
Right! It's all about the triggers. Starboard Tack Aug 2012 #105
the triggers are because of lousy training gejohnston Aug 2012 #106
Are you seriously Jenoch Aug 2012 #112
I have seen it. Good movie. Emphasis on "movie" Starboard Tack Aug 2012 #135
but UK and the US are different societies gejohnston Aug 2012 #136
Every society is different to a degree. Starboard Tack Aug 2012 #138
I think what we are seeing with Mr. Tack is something in the UK akin... Clames Aug 2012 #144
You are out of your mind. Jenoch Aug 2012 #137
Why don't you ask some UK cops what it is like? Starboard Tack Aug 2012 #145
Why would asking a UK Jenoch Aug 2012 #148
If you think being a cop is about "enforcing laws" then you just don't get it Starboard Tack Aug 2012 #149
Try again. oneshooter Aug 2012 #150
Mea culpa. I should have said LAPD Starboard Tack Aug 2012 #157
You've got to be pulling my chain here. Where are the cameras? Jenoch Aug 2012 #151
You are absolutely correct. So why do they need guns? Starboard Tack Aug 2012 #158
You may have a point there glacierbay Aug 2012 #159
I understand your position and your reaction to my suggestion. Starboard Tack Aug 2012 #160
Here's where you fail glacierbay Aug 2012 #162
More alike than different. Starboard Tack Aug 2012 #165
Again, you've got to be kidding me. Jenoch Aug 2012 #163
The 'beat' cops are the ones that run into trouble. Jenoch Aug 2012 #161
"...the average criminal mind....plays by a set of rules..."????? Jenoch Aug 2012 #142
We just need better cops. Union Scribe Aug 2012 #121
Without a gun and bullets, this wouldn't happen graham4anything Aug 2012 #102
A gun never saved anyone? glacierbay Aug 2012 #103
live by the gun, die by the gun graham4anything Aug 2012 #111
prime example gejohnston Aug 2012 #113
I put this into Google Translate Union Scribe Aug 2012 #119
Babelfish worked alot better... OneTenthofOnePercent Aug 2012 #131
"Guns do not buy freedom" PavePusher Aug 2012 #120
this has nothing to do with the USA or the NRA graham4anything Aug 2012 #124
Armed self-defense stories are posted regularly in this group. GreenStormCloud Aug 2012 #152
just statistical noise graham4anything Aug 2012 #156
I'm having trouble translating what you say into English AnJo1 Aug 2012 #166
I don't want to get rid of you, just the #1 biggest lobby NRA graham4anything Aug 2012 #167
$35.00X4.5 Million=$157,000,000 glacierbay Aug 2012 #169
more fuzzy math graham4anything Aug 2012 #170
So you're an accountant? glacierbay Aug 2012 #171
4.3 million members is just 1.5% of the population of USA. graham4anything Aug 2012 #186
23,000 members is just 0.08% of the population of the US gejohnston Aug 2012 #188
he is correct-guns are an abomination. graham4anything Aug 2012 #190
Bill Crystal agrees with him gejohnston Aug 2012 #192
What you fail to address is that there are 80-90 million more gun owners glacierbay Aug 2012 #196
Nothing wrong with an audit if there is nothing to hide? AnJo1 Aug 2012 #200
it's like at the airport graham4anything Aug 2012 #202
So your rights trump mine? AnJo1 Aug 2012 #204
Can you back up your claim that the NRA is "backing" Zimmerman? AnJo1 Aug 2012 #181
You are moving the goal posts. GreenStormCloud Aug 2012 #172
however, in reality, this just forgets one major thing graham4anything Aug 2012 #175
Say what?? I understand all the words, but the sentences make no sense. AnJo1 Aug 2012 #182
Except for suicide, you are grossly wrong. GreenStormCloud Aug 2012 #183
homicide is a very broad term graham4anything Aug 2012 #187
not that many gejohnston Aug 2012 #189
Take a closer look at my post. GreenStormCloud Aug 2012 #193
it's like the old saying graham4anything Aug 2012 #197
1,981 Murdered by knife in 2007 GreenStormCloud Aug 2012 #203
No one can speak for "the gun people" since we come in many varieties AnJo1 Aug 2012 #198
This message was self-deleted by its author Simo 1939_1940 Aug 2012 #153
I'm with you, brother/sister! Simo 1939_1940 Aug 2012 #154
Brilliant satire!!! TPaine7 Aug 2012 #107
Yes...we need Superman...nt Union Scribe Aug 2012 #109
Your fucking hero Bloomers walked onto the crime scene shortly after it was secured.... PavePusher Aug 2012 #118
Some info on NYPD training... PavePusher Aug 2012 #114
Training is one factor. Switching from Glocks to double-action/single-action pistols would help. AnotherMcIntosh Aug 2012 #126
Not really. Ashgrey77 Aug 2012 #140
Yes really. AnotherMcIntosh Aug 2012 #143
Stock Glock has a 5.5 pound pull. Ashgrey77 Aug 2012 #155
You're sick Kolesar Aug 2012 #127
It's hard to swallow, but it's the truth. nt rDigital Aug 2012 #133
HUGE Black Eye for Mayor Bloomberg Iggy Aug 2012 #128
A 12# trigger on a police weapon is the dumbest pipoman Aug 2012 #130
To be fair... HALO141 Aug 2012 #164
and to be fair to Mayor Mike- graham4anything Aug 2012 #176
"if the grudge holder did not have a gun" HALO141 Aug 2012 #178
Thankfully NY has laws against tourists bringing their guns in graham4anything Aug 2012 #184
Say what? Straw Man Aug 2012 #199
get rid of the blue wall of silence for one thing & graham4anything Aug 2012 #201
Oh, I get it. HALO141 Aug 2012 #206
Tourists with guns isn't a problem for other states. GreenStormCloud Aug 2012 #207
I love Texas and I go there without a gun graham4anything Aug 2012 #208
I respect your right to that decision, if not the decision itself. GreenStormCloud Aug 2012 #209
Let me get this straight glacierbay Aug 2012 #179
outrageous was having a shoot out on 34th street graham4anything Aug 2012 #185
Latest Discussions»Issue Forums»Gun Control & RKBA»NYC: Empire State Shootin...»Reply #0