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Showing Original Post only (View all)NYC: Empire State Shooting: ALL bystanders were shot by police [View all]
http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national/2012/08/just-how-many-bystanders-did-new-york-police-shoot/56187/
Update: The Guardian is reporting that the nine bystanders who were shot (that didn't include the shooter's target) were all shot by police, and that Jeffrey Johnson never fired on police.
The most disturbing detail about Friday's fatal shooting in Midtown Manhattan is the fact that the wounded included bystanders shot by police, and the latest news suggests stray police bullets may account for "most or all" of those wounded. Police Commissioner Ray Kelly confirmed that at least some of the injuries came from stray police bullets as cops opened fire on the gunman who aimed at them, but the police haven't said how many. Rather, that detail comes from the math reporters are doing with the number of rounds police have confirmed were fired.
Fortunately, most of the injuries were minor. As one victim who as hit in the arm told The New York Times: "I guess, you know, stuff happens."
The Times' James Barron and David Halbfinger and William K. Rashbaum introduced the arithmetic reporting: "Some of those injured might have been shot by the two police officers, who fired 16 rounds at the gunman, Jeffrey Johnson 58, said Police Commissioner Raymond W. Kelly based on the number of people shot and the fact that Mr. Johnsons gun held only eight rounds." The New York Times Metro twitter account followed up with this accounting: "Johnson had 8 bullets max. Shot 5 at [victim Steve] Ercolino, 2 left in gun, 1 unfired on ground," suggesting that the only ones Johnson fired were at his intended victim -- although that doesn't necessarily mean all of them found their mark.
The killer didn't shoot at police, but the police shot him and 9 other people. The shooter murdered his old boss and didn't fire at anyone else. It sounds like Bloomberg and the other people running NYC hate guns SO much that they don't even want their officers adequately trained.
The NYPD's handguns have triggers on their guns that are OVER 12 pounds to fire. The most important item for accuracy, after proper grip/purchase, is trigger control. It's very hard to control a sub 2 pound gun with a 13 pound trigger. The hoplophobia rampant in NYC has now almost cost 9 people their lives at the hands of New York's Finest.
I am a certified pistol instructor, and I know poor training when I see it. I've taught 70 year olds how to shoot fist sized groups rapid fire at 20 feet. This is without advanced training, just the fundamentals.
Every article I've read on the subject seems to point to a systemic problem within the NYPD with regards to firearms training. NYC has the seventh largest standing army in the world and quite possibly the poorest firearms curriculum as well.
Here's an exerpt from one such article:
http://www.handgunsmag.com/2012/02/16/the-nypd-and-the-kahr-k-9-no-substitute-for-training/
The NYPD is apparently incapable of training its officers to keep their finger off the trigger, so instead of increasing or improving their training (which would cost the department money, as well as be an acknowledgement that the training was the problem), they mandate that the gun companies provide them modified weapons.
I dont dislike Glocks, I love Glocks. I carry a Glock every day, and am in fact wearing one right now as I write this. However, Glocks equipped with the 12-lb New York Plus trigger are an abomination. A few years ago at an editorial roundtable, the InterMedia Outdoors staff had a friendly competition involving a Glock with such a trigger. Everyone involved reported that the pistol was nearly impossible to shoot. G&As Handgun Editor Pat Sweeney (a veteran pistol competitor and Master-Class USPSA shooter) won the contest, but to do so, he used a technique he wouldnt recommend anyone usehe was pulling the trigger with both his index fingers. A 12-lb trigger on a Glock only makes it harder to shoot fast and accurately, thereby increasing the chances that an officers bullet wont end up where he or she intended.
One of the most important steps in firearms training is trigger control. The NYPD couldn't keep their recruits fingers off the trigger until ready to fire. If they can't follow basic firearms discipline, how can they be trusted to possess firearms in public? My students master the 4 rules of firearms safety within hours, why can't the NYPD do it? The only mass shooting in NYC yesterday was carried out by those hired to protect it.
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i'm not a gun user, or any manner of expert; but, i agree with your comments.
marasinghe
Aug 2012
#3
Surely you can cite to a Citizen hitting nine bystanders in a self-defense shooting.
PavePusher
Aug 2012
#115
No, they are 100% to blame. They should know their firearm's capabilities and limitations...
Cooley Hurd
Aug 2012
#9
Cops are, by definition, police officers. "Police officer" is a profession.
Cooley Hurd
Aug 2012
#18
Perhaps those 9 victims should ask for a refund from their paid protectors.
4th law of robotics
Aug 2012
#61
And *you've* forgotten about Virginia Tech, where the killer used "normal sized" clips...
friendly_iconoclast
Aug 2012
#91
Like I said, That is why my side is winning the national debate on this issue.
GreenStormCloud
Aug 2012
#98
Sounds like he was either A) professional enough to realize his gun wasn't the answer...
Cooley Hurd
Aug 2012
#52
He should check EVERY possible aspect of his weapon just as I check every possible aspect...
Cooley Hurd
Aug 2012
#65
I was just curious. for the record, I fire a .40. A .22 is too small and a howitzer is too expensive
shadowrider
Aug 2012
#78
I disagree, but I do appreciate your reasoned response without insults or slurs n/t
shadowrider
Aug 2012
#125
Bet they'd lose their heads if someone was shooting at them while they're trying
shadowrider
Aug 2012
#37
Yes, we are trained to do one thing, first and foremost, in ANY emergency...
Cooley Hurd
Aug 2012
#40
And these are professionals. Imagine the carnage if some concealed-carry yahoo started shooting.
DanTex
Aug 2012
#24
LOL. Yeah, the average yahoo gun nut is better trained than the NYPD. Now that was funny!
DanTex
Aug 2012
#31
Please feel free to cite an instance in which a permit holder hit 9 innocent people NT
Trunk Monkey
Aug 2012
#35
There are plenty of instances of permit holders shooting people accidentally (including themselves).
DanTex
Aug 2012
#39
With their fantastic requirements only 1%ers like Donald Trump get carry permits
rDigital
Aug 2012
#76
My S&W Model 642 snub nosed .38 caliber revolver has a trigger pull of about 12 pounds. ...
spin
Aug 2012
#93
"The only mass shooting in NYC yesterday was carried out by those hired to protect it."
OneTenthofOnePercent
Aug 2012
#57
Don't worry. Only the police should have guns cause they've been trained and stuff n/t
shadowrider
Aug 2012
#74
If you're familiar with police firearms training, you'll see that flurry shooting isn't a last
rDigital
Aug 2012
#88
Bloomberg has the NYPD so afraid of guns that the cops don't get trained to use them properly. nt
rDigital
Aug 2012
#90
You are being sarcastic, and it is a good LOL, BUT you are close to the truth I bet...
virginia mountainman
Aug 2012
#95
If you think being a cop is about "enforcing laws" then you just don't get it
Starboard Tack
Aug 2012
#149
Your fucking hero Bloomers walked onto the crime scene shortly after it was secured....
PavePusher
Aug 2012
#118
Training is one factor. Switching from Glocks to double-action/single-action pistols would help.
AnotherMcIntosh
Aug 2012
#126