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Men's Group

In reply to the discussion: why does this crud continue [View all]
 

DeadParrotz

(12 posts)
44. I'll answer, if you don't mind.
Tue Jul 10, 2012, 11:01 PM
Jul 2012

Groups are not privileged or disenfranchised by their own innate characteristics. They are positioned relative to other groups with more/less institutional power. A lot of people in this Men's Group suffer under the same gender essentialism as the History of Feminists members you like to poke fun at. In reality, you share more than you differ.

Thus:

The whole argument by MRA champions that males are dropping behind in education, work more dangerous jobs, live shorter lives, etc. because there is some sort of institutional bias against males is problematic for ONE SIMPLE REASON:

MEN oppress each other. It's predominantly MEN crafting all sorts of social and legal frameworks to marginalize other groups, including other men. MEN oppress other groups disproportionate to any other group. Specifically, rich white men. But, I will say that the most powerful indicator of privilege is class, and THAT is one thing you should be focusing on.

All of this is to say: men repressing other groups has nothing to do with the fact that they are MALE. Throughout history and cultures, control and authority are positional, not essential. Until very recently, power was predominantly achieved through force. In more egalitarian cultures, power is granted by displays of generosity facilitated by immediate strategic political alliances. Example: potlatches. As societies became more hierarchical, power was taken by armies and leveraging resources. Eventually, technology came to replace brute human force, but history had still granted men the position of power in terms of creating and profiting from these tools.

These days, being male is starting to rapidly drop in importance, replaced by class and I would even go so far as to say profession. The most effective way to escape your socioeconomic class is to go into a high-prestige profession. The Geek Revolution controls a lot of important consumer products, and along with products comes the software that shapes the way that we use things and access information. Data has become so valuable that consumers themselves are now the product. This is power. Are most STEM professionals men? Yes, but this is changing. Especially in countries like China, India, and Japan where education is less gendered. The US clings to gender essentialism, and it's harming everyone.

There are a lot of great arguments from gender studies that talk about how our society's expectation of stereotypical male and female behaviors force people into narrow, proscribed gender roles that greatly limit what they can and cannot do.

The key, to me, is NOT to single out men as either victims or oppressors but to look at the economic and social pressures which result in disproportionate access to freedom and resources. Stop poking fun at those who point out the "Patriarchy". The "Patriarchy" is not just Men vs. Women. It a PATERNALISTIC system of authoritative influence over everyone, a hierarchy of "suitable" behaviors for both/all genders. Men who do not fit into the dominant role of provider/sexual agressor/competitor/etc. are also marginalized. This has been the default mode of thinking for much of Western history, and it's silly to dismiss its pervading influence.

Gender essentialism is tied to homophobia, too, as seen by the recent transphobia in the History of Feminists Group. I'd like to stick evolutionary psychologists who perpetuate this bullshit with nebulous, poorly-constructed or outright misleading "studies" on a fucking island somewhere. They can fight it out while the rest of us evolve


why does this crud continue [View all] unreadierLizard Jul 2012 OP
You have privilege, you can be discriminated against. Downwinder Jul 2012 #1
Sucks, doesn't it? But try not to let... TreasonousBastard Jul 2012 #2
I did say that unreadierLizard Jul 2012 #3
Apparently many on DU are convinced that radical feminism is a progressive agenda Major Nikon Jul 2012 #4
A progressive agenda that leans heavily on fundies 4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #10
This message was self-deleted by its author eek MD Jul 2012 #5
It seems now a days unreadierLizard Jul 2012 #6
You can hear some of the same messages coming from the right Major Nikon Jul 2012 #7
The right wins when they make the issue anything other than class warfare ProudToBeBlueInRhody Jul 2012 #8
+1000 SnohoDem Aug 2012 #90
Because men internalize the "yes dear" framework. lumberjack_jeff Jul 2012 #9
I think a lot of it is fear 4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #11
I've been called all of the above here. lumberjack_jeff Jul 2012 #12
I got called a fan of rapists and child molesters today Major Nikon Jul 2012 #69
It's always nice when they decide they are "done here" and you're "not worth it".... ProudToBeBlueInRhody Jul 2012 #71
I wish they'd say that, and mean it. lumberjack_jeff Jul 2012 #74
I don't even think Brett Farve retired that many times (n/m) ProudToBeBlueInRhody Jul 2012 #77
I got called it yesterday. lumberjack_jeff Jul 2012 #73
The "her" has multiple disciples that have learned from the master Major Nikon Jul 2012 #75
With me, you must stick, master Windu. lumberjack_jeff Jul 2012 #76
Always two there are, no more, no less: a master and an apprentice. Major Nikon Jul 2012 #78
I had one of them insist that I was defending rape because 4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #81
It's pretty effective at revealing the mental age of those who choose to use such rhetoric Major Nikon Jul 2012 #70
You came to DU 30 days ... trumad Jul 2012 #13
I have looked at the big picture. unreadierLizard Jul 2012 #14
Those are some serious issues... jorno67 Jul 2012 #15
So let me get this straight... trumad Jul 2012 #16
I don't see either of us having an advantage. unreadierLizard Jul 2012 #17
Yep, the core problem is that we live in an oligarchy, not a patriarchy. (nt) Kurovski Sep 2012 #97
This is the men's group, not the whites group. lumberjack_jeff Jul 2012 #21
amen Broderick Jul 2012 #83
If you showed that black Americans live shorter lives 4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #18
OK--let's make her white... trumad Jul 2012 #19
Answer the question: 4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #20
He asked an absolutely valid question. lumberjack_jeff Jul 2012 #22
Oh horseshit..... trumad Jul 2012 #25
"This place is full of the biggest fucking whiners on DU".. opiate69 Jul 2012 #30
No see here's where you misunderstand 4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #31
Trumad, you've made it perfectly clear how you feel about this group, repeatedly. Warren DeMontague Jul 2012 #41
Well ya know.. we bore him so much.... opiate69 Jul 2012 #43
This is exactly the sort of shit that should get you banned in a safe haven (n/m) ProudToBeBlueInRhody Jul 2012 #42
And . . . .gone 4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #24
I answered the fucking question--- trumad Jul 2012 #26
No, you didn't 4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #27
You seriously need to explian this strawman. trumad Jul 2012 #28
Please answer the question 4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #29
Post removed Post removed Jul 2012 #33
So . . . no answer then? 4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #34
Logic. Some people don't do it very well. lumberjack_jeff Jul 2012 #36
Or . . . 4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #38
I wouldn't expect an answer.. Upton Jul 2012 #37
If the situation were reversed 4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #39
He tried... lumberjack_jeff Jul 2012 #40
Actually your histrionic response here has inadvertently raised a good point 4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #35
Are personal attacks all you've got? lumberjack_jeff Jul 2012 #32
I'll answer, if you don't mind. DeadParrotz Jul 2012 #44
There is very little "gender essentialism" here and there aren't a whole lot of "MRAs", either. Warren DeMontague Jul 2012 #45
That's an odd response. DeadParrotz Jul 2012 #47
If you have a problem with the existence of the group, you shouldn't be posting here. Warren DeMontague Jul 2012 #48
I feel like I've contributed posts of substance here. DeadParrotz Jul 2012 #50
You are in a protected group, and calling out group members, attacking the existence of the group, Warren DeMontague Jul 2012 #53
I've called someone out? DeadParrotz Jul 2012 #57
You'll notice that you're not blocked from this group. Warren DeMontague Jul 2012 #63
Also, "The Patriarchy" as it is presented by the folks "poked fun at", is a conspiracy theory Warren DeMontague Jul 2012 #46
You have some salient points. DeadParrotz Jul 2012 #49
And I like Andrew Blake, but I neither said you were a fan of Dworkin nor asked who your favorite Warren DeMontague Jul 2012 #51
Actually, you raised the point of porn. DeadParrotz Jul 2012 #52
You're right. I mentioned boob pictures. Warren DeMontague Jul 2012 #54
I'm not telling you what to think. DeadParrotz Jul 2012 #56
PS no idea who Scootaloo is... DeadParrotz Jul 2012 #55
Why you even assume I need a lecture or some sort of ethical inventory-taking is beyond me. Warren DeMontague Jul 2012 #58
I think you're misreading. DeadParrotz Jul 2012 #59
Remember that you're in a protected group, and you ought to try to stick to the topic of the thread. Warren DeMontague Jul 2012 #61
You have acknowledged having, quote, "multiple accounts". How are we supposed to know who IS "you" Warren DeMontague Jul 2012 #68
P.S. Here is the point at which you personify the conversation to reflect your own experiences. DeadParrotz Jul 2012 #60
Due to this exchange, your favorite group on your profile is now "The Men's Group". Just FYI. Warren DeMontague Jul 2012 #62
And no, I didn't personify anything in that post, I made the comment about Andrew Blake only in Warren DeMontague Jul 2012 #64
First off thank you for your time in answering my question 4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #65
Point by point lumberjack_jeff Jul 2012 #66
Hi Jeff. MadrasT Jul 2012 #67
By asking me, you're getting only one man's opinion. lumberjack_jeff Jul 2012 #72
Thank you. MadrasT Jul 2012 #79
You're welcome. lumberjack_jeff Jul 2012 #80
As one man's opinion as you say Broderick Jul 2012 #82
Don't come here to attack group members. lumberjack_jeff Jul 2012 #23
this male privilege thing Whisp Jul 2012 #84
I think that's the flaw in many feminist critiques 4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #85
Two immutable principles in US society lumberjack_jeff Jul 2012 #87
And its funny because the same people who condemn men for allegedly 4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #88
I think the net effect of privilege is a matter of degrees. lumberjack_jeff Jul 2012 #86
In all truth, caseymoz Jul 2012 #89
I think the implication is . . . caseymoz Aug 2012 #91
Because Skinner allows it Sick of the GOP Aug 2012 #92
Hey, if you have problem with Skinner.... ProudToBeBlueInRhody Aug 2012 #93
At our request, Skinner set up the men's group. lumberjack_jeff Aug 2012 #94
Oh good gawd. Iggo Aug 2012 #95
And hey...PRONOUNS! Iggo Aug 2012 #96
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