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thucythucy

(8,139 posts)
14. I disagree with the assertion that
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 09:52 PM
Dec 2013

"The reason the patriarchy was created in the first place was a social construct to protect women at the expense of men."

Sorry, but that's bullshit. I look at the purest forms of patriarchy in the world today--in Yemen for instance--and I don't see anything in place to "protect women" in any way shape or form, certainly not at the expense of men. "Control" women, yes. Absolutely. Women's reproductive organs as means of production, which need to be carefully and entirely controlled by men, certainly. Women's sexuality needing to be controlled, curtailed, vilified, absolutely. But the motive in these and other cases is hardly "to protect" women.

Look at the Hebrew Scriptures, for instance, and how they relate to women and girls. Females are property, pure and simple. Raping a woman is therefore not a crime of violence against her, but is instead a violation of the property rights of the man who "owns" her--father, son, brother--and is dealt with accordingly. That we live in a less fiercely patriarchal society here in the west is the result of centuries of activism, often by women, sometimes by men as well, not to mention our drawing away (thank God!) from the patriarchal strictures of the Bible. And, let's face it, some pure dumb luck as well.

And I certainly haven't seen the abuses men (and boys) suffer under the patriarchy ignored by feminists. To the contrary. The first rape crisis centers in the country were organized in the 1960s and 70s by women, almost always volunteers, who offered their time and resources to assist rape survivors because society in general couldn't be bothered. Very early on many of these same centers (including the one I worked with back in the day) began encountering men and boys who were also victims of rape and incest, who came to them because, again, there was no place else for them to go. The men in their lives, if they knew of the abuse, tended to ridicule them for being "sissies" and "not man enough" to either resist or endure their abuse. The police were even worse to male survivors than to females. So to the extent that male survivors are getting support for their issues today at all is in large part due to the women's--the feminist--anti-rape movement. Not that the men's rights folks would ever acknowledge that.

If you want to organize against war--go for it. Lots of women, including feminists, have been doing that for decades, centuries even, despite the fact that it's men who are the predominant (military) casualties. If you want to organize against unsafe labor practices, against unreasonable expectations of "masculinity" as defined in the patriarchy, against the "male mystique" -- as someone without emotion (except anger), always in control, never vulnerable or tender--by all means, do so. If and when you do you'll find women--including feminists--who will be happy to have you as part of the struggle.

But the incessant need to belittle feminists and feminism as a root or even ancillary cause of male suffering is at best unproductive and at worst quite reactionary.

BTW: when you say "The patriarchy was evolutionary and was established in every civilization on earth" you're ignoring a good deal of archaeological and anthropological evidence to the contrary. Some indigenous North American cultures were matriarchal, as was the civilization on ancient Crete, where women and men evidently shared in important religious and political ceremonies, and where inheritance was matrilineal. Read Joseph Campbell's "The Masks of God" especially volume one on "primitive mythology," and his volume on occidental mythology, for a very erudite discussion of matriarchy and patriarchy in the ancient western world.

We can't even begin to name "every civilization on earth" -- let alone discern their political/economic/social structures.

this same attitude was displayed in the recent hof thread Doctor_J Nov 2013 #1
In any movement there is that group whose worst fear is that... TreasonousBastard Nov 2013 #2
"In ANY movement..." thucythucy Dec 2013 #13
Yeah, any movement... TreasonousBastard Dec 2013 #16
Unfortunately the patriarchy is not dead for men Major Nikon Nov 2013 #3
Why call it Patriarchy though? Bonobo Nov 2013 #4
Because people need to understand what it really is Major Nikon Nov 2013 #5
It is the premise underlying the current porn discussions. lumberjack_jeff Nov 2013 #8
I think the actual underlying premise goes a bit deeper Major Nikon Dec 2013 #10
I disagree with the assertion that thucythucy Dec 2013 #14
What better way to protect than through control? Major Nikon Dec 2013 #15
In terms of patriarchy vs. matriarchy thucythucy Dec 2013 #18
As a conceptual frame, it's not all that far off. lumberjack_jeff Dec 2013 #21
Why do you think that all the successful human societies lumberjack_jeff Dec 2013 #17
I don't know. thucythucy Dec 2013 #19
Until quite recently, men have been largely disposable. lumberjack_jeff Dec 2013 #20
But in that case they're "protected" at the expense of any possible freedom or self-determination. nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #22
Self-determination has historically been in short supply. lumberjack_jeff Dec 2013 #23
No argument. "Freedom" is always relative - in many cases very, VERY relative. n/t nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #24
I'm not sure I understand these distinctions you seem to be making. thucythucy Dec 2013 #25
It's not really about what practical value the patriarchy has anymore Major Nikon Dec 2013 #26
Agreed. The patriarchy, however defined, should be consigned thucythucy Dec 2013 #28
You're right to a point. lumberjack_jeff Dec 2013 #27
Well, we can go round and round on this. thucythucy Dec 2013 #29
Talking with you about this has made me think about terminology. lumberjack_jeff Dec 2013 #30
You're assuming that equality has thucythucy Dec 2013 #31
For every 3 women enrolled in college, 2 men are. lumberjack_jeff Dec 2013 #33
It IS an achievement, considering thucythucy Dec 2013 #35
I did create a progressive men's group to address a variety of issues. lumberjack_jeff Dec 2013 #36
Do you actually read the pages to which you link? thucythucy Dec 2013 #37
Have a Merry Christmas and we'll talk again after the holidays. lumberjack_jeff Dec 2013 #39
Too late to wish you a merry Christmas, (I was away from all computers!!!!) thucythucy Dec 2013 #41
It was wonderful. lumberjack_jeff Dec 2013 #42
Glad to hear it. I also had a wonderful holiday. thucythucy Jan 2014 #43
When women were underrepresented in college is was most certainly a crisis. lumberjack_jeff Jan 2014 #44
Once again you quote a small portion of the link you provide: thucythucy Jan 2014 #45
In 1970, a smaller gap was a huge problem. lumberjack_jeff Jan 2014 #46
I'd have to see the raw figures thucythucy Jan 2014 #47
As a first part of a reading list thucythucy Jan 2014 #48
I've read most of it. lumberjack_jeff Jan 2014 #49
It's not hard to find where the bias comes in with AAUW Major Nikon Jan 2014 #50
Even conceding all that, thucythucy Jan 2014 #51
And how much of that is due to illegal discrimination? Major Nikon Jan 2014 #53
agree. nt lumberjack_jeff Jan 2014 #54
So you disagree with the raw data thucythucy Jan 2014 #52
The demographic trend of an increasing percentage of young people going to college... lumberjack_jeff Jan 2014 #55
So it's the "splashing sounds" thucythucy Jan 2014 #56
I wanted to add something else. thucythucy Dec 2013 #32
The need for victimization intervention for men is irrelevant. Political will is nonexistent. lumberjack_jeff Dec 2013 #34
The need for intervention and support for male victims is not "irrelevant." thucythucy Dec 2013 #38
The need is irrelevant. lumberjack_jeff Dec 2013 #40
"Dead" seems just a wee bit optimistic at this time LadyHawkAZ Nov 2013 #6
+1 nomorenomore08 Nov 2013 #7
I agree Major Nikon Nov 2013 #9
This part here: thucythucy Dec 2013 #11
I just don't see where she's coming from at all. Seems an incredibly selective view of things. nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #12
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