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In reply to the discussion: The "extreme left" didn't give us Trump. The path to hell was paved by [View all]JHan
(10,173 posts)285. Ok. I get that..
I figured we want the same things. I just don't think the Dems are the enemy right now, and I get wary of attacks that paint Democrats as the enemy.
"I think the only thing we are talking past each other on is the fact that the leadership doesn't just refuse to talk about getting "big things" like universal health care, etc. They have been actively "sitting on" the more vocal members of the caucus in an effort to "reign in" efforts to publicize the existence of bills like Conyers on health care forward. They believe it is for the "good of the party" -- that we "can't do it so stop rocking the boat, there will be 'backlash.'" They are horribly mistaken. "
We're on the same page on a lot of things, but this is is what concerns me and why I'm wary of directing anger towards Democrats or tarring them for past sins, hence my relevancy comment:
The Overton window has been so dragged to the right that hatred of immigrants, the building of a wall, travel bans that amount to a muslim ban and an immigrant crime registry are now directives from a president of the United States and either downplayed or rationalized by pundits and endorsed by millions of voters. The status quo under Obama, that was so attacked last year in anti establishment arguments ( which is why I always considered those arguments so dangerous), has now been replaced by Trump's status quo - the dismantling and defunding of agencies which improve quality of life.
I understood what Obama meant when he implored us to not make perfect the enemy of good, because we were on track to get the things I would like to see: A healthcare system providing even greater coverage, undoing GOP suppression of the vote and gerrymandering, reversing Citizens United, valuing our partnerships in the world, ending corporate welfare, restricting religious imposition in our public schools, ensuring the wealthy pay their fair share in taxes etc, reproductive rights and gender rights.
I do think Democrats need to be more aggressive, but there are also democrats in deep red states making tough political calculations and their elections are coming up pretty soon. I agree with Keith Ellison when he said he wants the party to be the party of local government, we've been far too focused on Presidential elections, and that tunnel vision ( and stupidity) is partly responsible for Democrats abandoning President Obama in a census year in 2010.
So support at the grassroots level is critical, either through volunteering, funds and activism plus Trump is the perfect foil to illustrate the contrast between us and republicans:
- we don't demonize immigrants.
- we believe in the importance of a social dividend and we're the only party to really talk about income disparity - hell Donald Trump believes wages are too high.
- we believe in expansion of health care
- we believe in regulations that protect and conserve the environment: clean air and clean rivers and clean water.
- we believe in the benefits of taxation as a moral good that sees to the good health of the whole.
- we believe citizens should have a path to prosperity through improving the quality and standards of public schools, easing debt students are confronted with ( complicated task but doable) etc etc heck my ideal is a UBI but I know that conversation ain't happening anytime soon. We need majorities in congress to set policy in an aggressive way - we MUST give our presidents FDR majorities to get FDR like policies.
And we have to keep repeating those things over and over as the moral bankruptcy of the Trump administration and the GOP continues to be exposed.
What I don't want us to get mired in are petty squabbles and cutting our noses to spite our faces, we can't afford to be demoralized, we already HAVE the better arguments.
EDIT: It's insane that we won the popular vote, that most Americans agree with us, and yet here we are. I can't help but think that the cognitive errors Republicans have so successfully pitted against voters, have worked on liberals as well, where we engage in a type of self loathing that makes us ignore whatever hard work has been done by those toiling in the fields because it doesn't meet some arbitrary standard of perfection..
We're facing a well oiled well financed Koch brothers opposition and GOP machinations that disenfranchise countless americans, yet we bash ourselves, as though we're to blame, even tearing down our decent presidents by tearing apart their legacy and bashing our politicians, often needlessly and for the slightest of reasons.
It just strikes me as inane and self defeating.
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The OP is Wrong.. Jill Stein spoiled the 2016 election for Hillary Clinton Gave us trump
Cha
Mar 2017
#111
I stand by the article.. "Jill Stein spoiled the 2016 election for Hillary Clinton "
Cha
Mar 2017
#119
And here is another level truly salient in the 2016 election results -- "Nobody won..."
Samantha
Mar 2017
#193
You are missing the fact that both Stein and Johnson votes increase exponentially since 2008/2012.
boston bean
Mar 2017
#244
Well lets see, in Michigan Hillary lost by .3%. Stein received 1.1% of the vote
still_one
Mar 2017
#139
"Noam Chomsky made that very clear that those "Progressives who refused to vote for Hillary Clinton
Cha
Mar 2017
#152
Of course the responsibility with what we will be going through the next 4 years lies
still_one
Mar 2017
#314
I don't disagree - the elephant in the room is that a hostile foreign power
PatrickforO
Mar 2017
#329
As I said those self-identified progressives who refused to vote for Hillary by either voting third
still_one
Mar 2017
#187
I understand your point. You may not be aware, but we lost a good number of folks here who said
still_one
Mar 2017
#246
I posting the article in response to the first sentence of the OP.. there are other
Cha
Mar 2017
#163
How curious that you're beating up the female candidate, when Gary Johnson (L)...
SMC22307
Mar 2017
#282
It does seem lately that there is an effort to shut down (or shout out) progressives in here.
LiberalLovinLug
Mar 2017
#315
The "angry, bitter minority" had vastly different positions at one time. VASTLY.
SMC22307
Mar 2017
#323
Show me anywhere where ANY of "these same folks" have EVER shown ANY tendency to support cuts to
Squinch
Mar 2017
#480
You call exposing "beating up".. "How Jill Stein and Donald Trump became allies of Vladimir Putin"
Cha
Mar 2017
#347
Your list in your post "It is not a left/moderate/right "divide." isn't complete...
George II
Mar 2017
#455
I stand with Democrats even when they are idiots because I KNOW they are capable of better.
pat_k
Mar 2017
#463
Bashing the crap out of them for things that happened more than a decade and a half ago...
George II
Mar 2017
#464
Naw you keep thinking about past fevers from long ago and keep misconstruing my point..
JHan
Mar 2017
#158
Here is a thread I recently started about Iran-Contra and its relation to what is happening today.
StevieM
Mar 2017
#186
And secondly, your accusations that Democrats have not made the moral case for issues...
JHan
Mar 2017
#200
if you want to whip the democratic party over some shit over 3 decades ago here.. hell..
JHan
Mar 2017
#145
Newsflash: It *ain't* all about you... things are CRITICAL right now for all ages.
SMC22307
Mar 2017
#148
You two are both blind to why trying to fight Trump with Democratic politicians
ProfessorPlum
Mar 2017
#270
Funny how the folks with the least wins think they have all the answers on winning
bravenak
Mar 2017
#271
Funny how the folks that keep losing...House,....Senate.....SCOTUS......State governorships...
LiberalLovinLug
Mar 2017
#289
Excellent, JH.. and Just to be Clear about the "extreme left".. "not" giving us trump as the OP ..
Cha
Mar 2017
#97
The point is to get more of us to run locally to get in. Not forcing ones already in to vote no.
haele
Mar 2017
#325
My only point is that absent clarity and sufficient consensus on basic principles, there...
pat_k
Mar 2017
#486
Me too. I'm at the point of simply ignoring them and not giving them traction anymore
bravenak
Mar 2017
#86
you could say the same for people who want to spend their energy taking it to the "far left." Which
JCanete
Mar 2017
#214
I wouldn't say it. We are fighting republicans constantly while they simply fight us
bravenak
Mar 2017
#291
that isn't true of this poster, and he's listed that over and over. It isn't true that nobody is
JCanete
Mar 2017
#298
All you have are insults.."The "extreme left" didn't give us Trump" stein owns a Chunk of it..
Cha
Mar 2017
#60
I want to hear ideas from people who know how to win and know who the enemy is.
bravenak
Mar 2017
#55
And how has kicking Dems in the ass been a winner? It hasn't. The far left as not racked up
bravenak
Mar 2017
#100
Maybe I am just old enough to remember when Democrats didn't buy into Reaganomics.
Gore1FL
Mar 2017
#107
Takeoff on that old Broadway hit: "A funny thing happened on the way to Democratic Underground".
George II
Mar 2017
#33
If you dont know... That's too bad, cause I don't have time to repeat myself all day.
bravenak
Mar 2017
#269
I've commented several times, only once here, about my disappointment that single
notdarkyet
Mar 2017
#48
The public option was killed because of Joe Lieberman, that was his price for his vote
betsuni
Mar 2017
#120
True. And if we don't make the case -- loud and proud -- we will never generate the political will.
pat_k
Mar 2017
#512
Agree. An example of the contrast is Inslee and WA delegation stand against travel ban.
suffragette
Mar 2017
#7
You will not absolve jill stein's LIES.. she owns a chunk of trump and those who got suckered..
Cha
Mar 2017
#16
So someone didn't get their pony so they figure screw everyone else?
Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin
Mar 2017
#47
The extreme left that voted for Bush in Florida in 2000? The extreme left that picked Reagan?
Rex
Mar 2017
#50
Jill Stein spoiled the 2016 election for Hillary Clinton.. there goes your premise..
Cha
Mar 2017
#101
Oh comey was at fault too but the LIES stein told and in Swing States Cost us the election..
Cha
Mar 2017
#339
You are correct, of course. Too many here don't remember when the Democrats weren't cowards
Gore1FL
Mar 2017
#115
Also, as much as I love Obama, I also criticize him for not calling out the Republicans enough
Akamai
Mar 2017
#122
The push to convince us we can only be center right to alt-right is well underway. It's
brewens
Mar 2017
#131
LOLOLOL, So White people supported Trump because REagan,Bush etc wasn't impeached , indicted Etc ?
JI7
Mar 2017
#153
I don't know whether to laugh or cry, but note the absolution this gives to racist whites. nt
msanthrope
Mar 2017
#419
I understand where youre coming from. But since we cant go back, we must go forward and keep this
caroldansen
Mar 2017
#154
I don't think anyone in particular gave us The Con. For DECADES I've been told we should elect
napi21
Mar 2017
#156
Yep, and the excuse from the OP and those that agree with them for not opposing this is that those
stevenleser
Mar 2017
#436
Albeit late but thanks for your response. In hindsight, trump promised people things he
akbacchus_BC
Mar 2017
#378
Your phrase "self-entitled ourgeoisie" to describe the "left" who voted against Hillary
delisen
Mar 2017
#239
lol. they do and white men mostly go for the bigots. thats why they still approve of trump
JI7
Mar 2017
#319
yes, they agree with hating and attacks on minorities. that's what matters to them . Trump is strong
JI7
Mar 2017
#369
right. And your thesis is that racism is more enticing than strength/dominance behavior
ProfessorPlum
Mar 2017
#441
I'm going to explain this to you one more time, slowly, just in case we can have a meeting
ProfessorPlum
Mar 2017
#454
"Strength is truth, spoken with conviction, framed in a moral matrix, and backed up by action"
pat_k
Mar 2017
#460
Yeah, um, no. The extreme left gave us Jill Stein. It also gives us calls 2 primary current Dems
msanthrope
Mar 2017
#236
The DLC hasn't been in existence for more than six years. How could they have driven people away...
George II
Mar 2017
#257
A lot of people don't want to admit that the dems had any responsibility in this clusterfuck.
CrispyQ
Mar 2017
#255
Understood. I actually signed up as a Democrat because or Bernie Sanders & Elizabeth Warren.
iscooterliberally
Mar 2017
#437
"You and others had repeatedly argued that the left didn't affect the election results in any way."
pat_k
Mar 2017
#384
A request for a tally of votes lost the party over three decades is NOT "a simple question."
pat_k
Mar 2017
#407
I've never made that claim either, and I've had a few recent conversations with you on this topic.
JCanete
Mar 2017
#447
You don't have to be interested. It's still here if other people are. Personally, I find it
JCanete
Mar 2017
#452
that is going to be very hard to do. It just takes continuing to be patient i think, and putting in
JCanete
Mar 2017
#501
I want to thank them too, for proving your assertions wrong so all can see. nt
stevenleser
Mar 2017
#534
if stein voters weren't extreme left...then who is?...every vote for her was a vote for trump
beachbum bob
Mar 2017
#427
Nope, wishing doesn't make it so. There is no evidence for what you write. You just want it to be
stevenleser
Mar 2017
#435
I saw it. Just more wishing to make it so. All unproven wild assertions. nt
stevenleser
Mar 2017
#532
Strong, well-conceived OP. I'd toss in also the bandwidth and high ground our leadership loses
JudyM
Mar 2017
#506
Yes they did...they are spoilers who refuse to face reality and consider winning strategies...they
Demsrule86
Mar 2017
#513