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In reply to the discussion: What is your stance on burkinis or headscarves on French (or American) beaches (or streets)? [View all]MADem
(135,425 posts)80. Oh, it IS the business of the French government--they are secular, and they frown upon
expressions of religiosity in public life. While we have freedom OF religion, they have freedom FROM religion--if you want it, you really have to seek it out.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La%C3%AFcit%C3%A9
French secularity (French: laïcité, pronounced laisite) is the absence of religious involvement in government affairs, especially the prohibition of religious influence in the determination of state policies; it is also the absence of government involvement in religious affairs, especially the prohibition of government influence in the determination of religion.[1][2] Dictionaries ordinarily translate laïcité as secularity or secularism (the latter being the political system),[3] although it is sometimes rendered in English as laicity or laicism by its opponents.[citation needed] While the term was first used with this meaning in 1871 in the dispute over the removal of religious teachers and instruction from elementary schools, the word laïcité dates to 1842.[4]
In its strict and official acceptance, it is the principle of separation of church (or religion) and state.[5] Etymologically, laïcité is a noun formed by adding the suffix -ité (English -ity, Latin -itās) to the Latin adjective lāicus, loanword from the Greek ?ᾱϊ?ό? (lāïkós "of the people", "layman" , the adjective from ?ᾱό? (lāós "people" .[6]
French secularism has a long history but the current regime is based on the 1905 French law on the Separation of the Churches and the State.[7]
Thing is, those women probably, if left to their own devices and without the influence of their cultural community, their husbands, fathers, brothers and sons, would likely not be wearing a hot nylon head to foot costume on a hot summer beach. It's not their "choice." It's an option they are given and they are "allowed" to wear it because this hot (and not hot as in sexy) costume is marketed to them--and more importantly, to their husbands and fathers who will give their "approval" -- as "Islamic." They are sold on "Islamic clothing" websites, and in "Islamic clothing" shops.
If they are appeasing husband or father or brother, it's not a choice. It's the only option open to them, save wearing full hijab on the hot stones/sand.
If they truly just want to "cover up" at the beach, and retain their modesty, or stay out of the sun, a jazzy caftan and a large hat will do the trick and no one will give them a 2nd glance. They'll be invisible. They could probably get that sort of outfit far cheaper than the price they'd pay for a "burkini" which run around seventy bucks and up depending on quality (the term, itself, is offensive, given that the burqua is probably The Most Repressive of all the articles of clothing used to subjugate women in the Muslim world).
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What is your stance on burkinis or headscarves on French (or American) beaches (or streets)? [View all]
muriel_volestrangler
Aug 2016
OP
That's how I feel but I am afraid that head scarfs may make those women easy targets
leftyladyfrommo
Aug 2016
#26
I don't see this uproar over Hasidic women on the beach, equally covered, walking behind husband.
TheBlackAdder
Aug 2016
#90
Muslims have enough money to vacation in France. You know, oil and stuff. here's my views:
Jeffersons Ghost
Aug 2016
#132
It's a complicated situation. I don't think the people they are approaching are vacationers.
MADem
Aug 2016
#134
Really? I can't legislate the banning of these clothes, but I don't have to like them, and
MADem
Aug 2016
#68
Why are you trying to position me as the French police, with your "Go lock them up, then" whine?
MADem
Aug 2016
#107
Not sure what your housekeeper has to do with French law, but that was quite the jump!
MADem
Aug 2016
#113
There isn't now, because the ban (and it was a temporary one) has been struck down by the courts.
MADem
Aug 2016
#172
Adam Ruins Everything. Boys used to wear dresses, Pinks and blues are a recent marketing ploy.
TheBlackAdder
Aug 2016
#94
Right on! Sometimes people have natural allergies to sunlight or took sun-sensitive medication.
TheBlackAdder
Aug 2016
#91
Men have no business telling women they can't wear burkinis or must wear burkinis.
Bernardo de La Paz
Aug 2016
#4
The shrine is a private and specifically religious location. It's not government - owned or run.
MADem
Aug 2016
#89
They were--both religious nuts, AND insufferable. They threw people out of their little
MADem
Aug 2016
#167
I'm torn- a person should be free to wear what they want but almost always there is no real choice
Lee-Lee
Aug 2016
#6
Why Arent the 2 cops Forced to wear beach attire shorts ? Is it about what is right for the beach
Person 2713
Aug 2016
#30
I don't think the police are sunbathing. That's why they aren't wearing sunbathing costumes.
MADem
Aug 2016
#143
This is a stupid poll. People can and should wear what they want. We don't need clothing
Pisces
Aug 2016
#11
It may seem stupid, but the choices basically came from the reactions here:
muriel_volestrangler
Aug 2016
#16
But, it's not her choice. She is forced to cover up and conceal her body because of zealot
underahedgerow
Aug 2016
#118
Case in point, females don't HAVE the right to choose. They can't choose their husbands, they
underahedgerow
Aug 2016
#145
They certainly don't now, because French authorities demand blind obedience.
closeupready
Aug 2016
#155
Ah but there's the rub, you see. Is it force when centuries old creepy cult beliefs cause anyone to
underahedgerow
Aug 2016
#156
I'm with you. I also think there is quite a reactive situation going on with burkinis
suffragette
Aug 2016
#40
I am amazed at the "enabling" of fundamental extremism concealed under the guise of "choice"
MADem
Aug 2016
#45
Right? By suggesting it's the woman's choice, it's empowering the patriarchy instead of empowering
underahedgerow
Aug 2016
#127
Maybe we should work on sects started here in the United States first and get them in what you
Person 2713
Aug 2016
#31
Lifestyle oppression and making others uncomfortable because they are clearly wearing clothes
Person 2713
Aug 2016
#39
They aren't, as a religion, trying to impose their beliefs on the rest of us...or are they?
MADem
Aug 2016
#46
I have never had any Muslims trying to impose anything but Yes Crazy Christians ALL the time
Person 2713
Aug 2016
#64
Burkas are oppressive but Muslims in Indonesia (he largest Muslim country in the world) do not wear
pampango
Aug 2016
#38
Just like how Western women are "conditioned" to wear skimpy clothes to please men?
Odin2005
Aug 2016
#154
What a person chooses to wear isn't my business, or that of the French government.
Avalux
Aug 2016
#27
Oh, it IS the business of the French government--they are secular, and they frown upon
MADem
Aug 2016
#80
As a cancer survivor I'm advised to sunblock and wear coverage while out in the sun for hours.
eShirl
Aug 2016
#29
I have very fair skin and vomit when I'm in the sun too much. I wear linen during the summer
underahedgerow
Aug 2016
#126
Italy (where your pic was taken) is a CATHOLIC country. France, OTOH, is SECULAR.
MADem
Aug 2016
#85
Oh really? That's quite a user name you've got there, you hijab wearing male wabbit, you!
MADem
Aug 2016
#104
"...they prioritize their 'Frenchness' and they don't particularly want their society diluted..."
Il_Coniglietto
Aug 2016
#163
They DO. Maybe you should have asked for a definition of "Frenchiness" before you lashed out with
MADem
Aug 2016
#164
So it seems: "Nuns cannot wear their habits on our beaches, says deputy mayor of Cannes"
muriel_volestrangler
Aug 2016
#141
I imagine that will disappoint some who really thought they had a winner with all those old pictures
MADem
Aug 2016
#150
I think people should be allowed to choose for themselves what they wear. Period. Full Stop.
Warren DeMontague
Aug 2016
#49
I don't think so either.......seems like some of the same crowd offended by both ironically
Person 2713
Aug 2016
#106
Com'on...there's nothing better than dudes in Speedos. Especially elderly portly, dudes.
CincyDem
Aug 2016
#52
Why? Because they look ''gay''? Some of us can wear a speedo because we take care of our bodies.
YOHABLO
Aug 2016
#54
probably because some people let themselves go, then wear the speedos anyways. my children cannot
bravenak
Aug 2016
#57
Bad memories of pale, portly German tourists on the beaches of Malaga in the 70's.
Throd
Aug 2016
#58
LOL--don't always assume that the dislike of speedos has anything to do with homophobia!!!
MADem
Aug 2016
#74
We have "freedom of religion." You can wear a cross as big as a Christmas tree and no one
MADem
Aug 2016
#78
well I'm sure we agree that telling people what to wear or not wear, do or not do is wrong!
Warren DeMontague
Aug 2016
#174
If we must ban something on the beach, make it accordions or bagpipes or both! n/t
Binkie The Clown
Aug 2016
#133
The day I'm allowed to swim naked, I'll support any type of garment for others. nt.
FigTree
Aug 2016
#171