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Igel

(35,320 posts)
24. Lots of straw men and red herrings.
Sun Apr 3, 2016, 10:04 PM
Apr 2016

We require that farmers show that they're planting and plowing or that they're refraining. The money is to encourage either planting and plowing or not planting. Depends on the produce.

We require that Pell grant recipients actually register for classes. Pell grants are to subsidize tuition and fees.

We require that people taking the mortgage deduction have mortgages. Same for health care deductions.

All of these are part of implementing government policy. It may feel like free stuff, like the child care credit gets me "free" money, but if I don't have documentation that I either provide up front or have in case of audit I may not take the deductions or credit.

What's done with the money is up to the person, since paying the money implements policy fairly directly. A farmer can plant collards if he's getting a subsidy not to plant sorghum, and he can spend that money on a European vacation--as long as he doesn't spend it on planting sorghum, he's met the requirements.


So why do we subsidize poor people with the various programs put under the "welfare" category?

To implement public policy. We want them to have shelter, we want them to have at least minimum levels of clothing and food. If it's being spent for other things, then it's not implementing public policy. And often it's not spent because as soon as people who got the money to spend it on food sometimes spend it on other wants that are more pressing--and they'll cover the needs later. Where I student taught mothers who got money for formula realized the school employees would provide it if the mothers didn't, and found other uses for the money.

If they don't need it, then means testing should strip them of the subsidy because the subsidy isn't a gift it's a means of implementing public policy. It's not "doing until the least" in an affirmation of unification of church and state, nor is it primarily a means of leveling wealth distribution. It's a means of reducing poverty and making sure basic needs are met, which is public policy.


The problem with saying there's no evidence that "the poor" actually spend their money in inappropriate ways is a very poorly framed question. It leaves out information, it includes extra information, and it leads the reader to make bad inferences.

No, most poor don't abuse the system. "The poor" is a generic and that means "the average or prototypical poor person." At the same time, some poor do abuse the system, and "the poor" glosses over individuals because we also interpret the generic noun to mean "all of the poor." How do we know that some poor abuse the system?

Because all those cards being swiped, all those accounts being accessed, they all provide Big Data. And so legislatures have asked their welfare distribution agencies to provide lists of where money's spent and what it's spent on. There's a small amount that is spent wildly inappropriately, and while individual expenses can be argued over it's fairly clear that not all of them can be justified. Some is spent nowhere near the residence of the person receiving it. A lot's spent on luxuries or to service addictions, until that's prohibited. Then we know from enough studies that people sell their benefits at a discount for ready cash to cover things that the subsidies don't cover. And that's not always rent.

So some accounts from California--the last bit I read up on and the one I remember the best--had withdrawals at casinos in Vegas, money spent on lobster and such. Had the cards been reported stolen, no problem--but they weren't. Perhaps they were lost, perhaps the owners didn't know they were stolen or lost. But the inappropriate use was too large to be accounted for in that way, and often the cards returned to being used in entirely appropriate ways. Usually such accounting reports (not "newspaper reports" or "reports from the white privilege zone&quot justify these laws, however tangentially.

k and r dembotoz Apr 2016 #1
Do not tell me Bernie's candidacy has no impact on the discussion du jur angstlessk Apr 2016 #2
WaPO,is the Paper of the 1%ers. Wellstone ruled Apr 2016 #3
I did not know so I checked and it's actually not a rare topic gollygee Apr 2016 #4
The WP is an excellent newspaper that has long covered topics such as poverty, Nitram Apr 2016 #9
I now have to agree... angstlessk Apr 2016 #10
I think they get confused sometimes around here... Wounded Bear Apr 2016 #25
Agreed, Washington Times and the New York Post angstlessk Apr 2016 #26
K&R silvershadow Apr 2016 #5
I asked an agent about this at our local public assistance office Orrex Apr 2016 #6
i hope there were others hopemountain Apr 2016 #13
We need to drug-test the people who approve the forms ... eppur_se_muova Apr 2016 #17
+1 n/t warrprayer Apr 2016 #71
Getting the middle class to attack the poor instead of the rich is a winning strategy Major Nikon Apr 2016 #7
+1 daleanime Apr 2016 #20
+2 classykaren Apr 2016 #40
+1 n/t Nevernose Apr 2016 #44
The small number that abuse the system get the press and encourage more restrictions. FLPanhandle Apr 2016 #8
This is a well established MSM propaganda tactic. Dustlawyer Apr 2016 #45
I "love" the hot coffee lawsuit logic of tort reformers. "but she spilled coffee" - "yes but it was MillennialDem Apr 2016 #50
^^^This^^^n/t Gormy Cuss Apr 2016 #64
It's not as if right wing hatred of the poor is rooted in any sort of common sense... MrScorpio Apr 2016 #11
It makes sens to the Right Wingers Algernon Moncrieff Apr 2016 #66
"jump thru hoops" redruddyred Apr 2016 #75
A divisive tactic used to take even more away from the poor...feeds into stereotypes as well. Jefferson23 Apr 2016 #12
K&R Solly Mack Apr 2016 #14
If Ms Badger Needs to Invoke Masalow's Hierarchy: On the Road Apr 2016 #15
No, sounds like she's working hard.... daleanime Apr 2016 #21
K&R Paka Apr 2016 #16
Regarding the first ... eppur_se_muova Apr 2016 #18
Every white suburbanite has an anecdote Algernon Moncrieff Apr 2016 #19
Sorry, this is as offensive as anything. Socal31 Apr 2016 #27
YMMV Algernon Moncrieff Apr 2016 #28
Blanket an entire race of people... Socal31 Apr 2016 #29
I have no idea where you normally see anything Algernon Moncrieff Apr 2016 #31
You know exactly what I mean. Socal31 Apr 2016 #32
"Good Day?" It's between 8:30 and 12:30. The continental US is covered in darkness. Algernon Moncrieff Apr 2016 #33
If it helps I've seen Suburbanites of color that are just as bad, I've lived poor Dragonfli Apr 2016 #55
As a white suburbanite ProfessorPlum Apr 2016 #43
By "every" I really meant "a large majority" Algernon Moncrieff Apr 2016 #56
I knew exactly what you meant ProfessorPlum Apr 2016 #58
And the point was that these legends play direcly to what the OP is saying Algernon Moncrieff Apr 2016 #62
Stop trying to quantify it based on anecdotes. Gormy Cuss Apr 2016 #67
"Every" seemed simpler than the more accurate "disturbingly pervasive" Algernon Moncrieff Apr 2016 #70
Yep, I've heard that stuff for years treestar Apr 2016 #79
I'd pretend it's offensive too if my agenda required as much LanternWaste Apr 2016 #61
Sorry, it's way less offensive. Gormy Cuss Apr 2016 #65
I just regard them as Republican Anecdotal Conveniences: HughBeaumont Apr 2016 #46
Yes, I've heard all of them Algernon Moncrieff Apr 2016 #51
OH THAT too!! HughBeaumont Apr 2016 #63
this list is perfect and very familiar ProfessorPlum Apr 2016 #57
Which was never... scscholar Apr 2016 #77
My point, exactly ProfessorPlum Apr 2016 #78
this should be its own OP, by the way ProfessorPlum Apr 2016 #59
K&R rpannier Apr 2016 #22
I say we subject CEOs to drug screenings before they get our money. Spitfire of ATJ Apr 2016 #23
HELL, every congressman who serves at the state or fed level should be drug tested FlatBaroque Apr 2016 #53
Lots of straw men and red herrings. Igel Apr 2016 #24
So if a poor person gets a gift and pays rent with that gift and then uses his food card JDPriestly Apr 2016 #37
this is equally stupid redruddyred Apr 2016 #76
Turns out the guy who used food stamps to buy lobster... Human101948 Apr 2016 #41
I can guarantee this CA lobster guy was a James O'Keefe type plant... Human101948 Apr 2016 #42
Hmm. davidthegnome Apr 2016 #69
One of the best posts I've ever read on DU in all my 15 years. Avalon Sparks Apr 2016 #80
Sure, a scattered few abuse the system quaker bill Apr 2016 #82
K&R... spanone Apr 2016 #30
Tax breaks need to be replaced with subsidies and grants. It would be more honest and simpler Bernardo de La Paz Apr 2016 #34
K&R. JDPriestly Apr 2016 #35
Wherever homeless are giving FREE HOUSING, overall costs go down a lot. Bernardo de La Paz Apr 2016 #36
Thank you. There are no hard and fast rules, but simply giving housing to the homeless JDPriestly Apr 2016 #38
Drug testing is a scam. blackspade Apr 2016 #39
I would say it's a scam at work and should be illegal as well. I don't use drugs, so the only MillennialDem Apr 2016 #49
Line of "what we don't do" is more blurred than you think? lostnfound Apr 2016 #47
Interesting. So when the economy tanks and there is a huge recession, ProfessorPlum Apr 2016 #60
Because if you repeat a lie often enough, it becomes true. The poor are spending their MillennialDem Apr 2016 #48
Most poor people cannabis_flower Apr 2016 #52
PAY PEOPLE ENOUGH SO THEY DON'T QUALIFY FOR BENEFITS hollowdweller Apr 2016 #54
Like Skeletor's drug testing in FL Doctor_J Apr 2016 #68
Teachings of Christianity. If someone is a victim, they are somehow at fault for their own Amimnoch Apr 2016 #72
The rich get more welfare dollarwise, they need daily drug testing. Dont call me Shirley Apr 2016 #73
surprised to see this from WaPo redruddyred Apr 2016 #74
Excellent Liberal_in_LA Apr 2016 #81
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