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JonLP24

(29,322 posts)
5. I defend her often
Thu Apr 23, 2015, 10:45 AM
Apr 2015

I have also posted this Politico link often. We need to end it with the corporate subsidies they are stupid, politicians keep quibbling over ways to improve spending -- balance the budget when the logical & best place to start is the corporate subsidies

Welfare for the Well-Off: How Business Subsidies Fleece Taxpayers

The Illogic of Corporate Subsidies

Proponents of federal subsidies to private industry maintain that a government support network for American firms promotes the national interest. A multitude of economic, national security, and social arguments are offered to justify corporate aid. For example, government aid to industry is said to preserve high-paying American jobs; subsidize research activities that private industries would not finance themselves; counteract the business subsidies of foreign governments to ensure a level playing field; boost high-technology industries whose profitability is vital to American economic success in the twenty-first century; maintain the viability of "strategic industries" that are essential to American national security; finance ventures that would otherwise be considered too risky for private capital markets; and assist socially disadvantaged groups, such as minorities and women, to establish new businesses.

But let's walk through the logic of corporate welfare subsidies and undress the argument in simple terms. Let's begin by accepting the proposition that if the federal government gives $5 million to IBM, that IBM will use the money for some productive purpose. The funds may be used, for example, to help IBM underwrite research and development for the next generation of computer products, expand a domestic operation, or increase its industry market share as it competes with domestic and foreign rivals. It would seem that everyone wins: American workers, IBM shareholders, and the U.S. economy as a whole.

But hold on. That is not the full story. If the federal government offers IBM a $5 million research grant, every other American firm and non-IBM worker would be disadvantaged because the rest of us have to pay the taxes or help underwrite the debt so that Uncle Sam can give IBM a check. The fact that IBM may produce something of value with the $5 million hardly makes a prima facie case for this income transfer. After all, if Congress were to send you or me a check for $5 million, we could no doubt find useful things to do with the money--many of which might have genuine societal benefits. We might give some of the money to charity, thus helping the poor. We might use the funds to start a new business, thus building up the local economy. We might build a swimming pool in our backyards, creating construction jobs for American workers. In fact, we could no doubt issue a compelling report to the relevant committee in Congress assuring the politicians in Washington that we had made good use of the tax dollars. If we can claim membership in some "disadvantaged" group--African-Americans, Latinos, women, disabled persons--we can make the additional claim that these funds are helping a downtrodden group in society. We could (and given human nature, probably would) advise Congress in our report that the government give us $5 million again next year, so we can even do more good things for our fellow man.

Hopefully the fallacy of our defense of our grant, and IBM's, is self-evident. It is based on a false logic that permeates the corporate welfare debate called "single-entry bookkeeping." It is the deceit of counting the seen but not the unseen. The Commerce Department--which is the command and control center of America's modern-day corporate welfare state--claims to have created 250,000 jobs through its business assistance programs. This is indeed an impressive number. It seems well worth the $5 billion a year we spend on the department's economic development activities. Where does the number actually come from? The answer is that Commerce officials count all the new jobs that have been directly created through the grant dollars it distributes to the IBMs and the Chevrons each year. Take away the grants and presumably the 250,000 jobs vanish.

http://www.hoover.org/research/welfare-well-how-business-subsidies-fleece-taxpayers

That said she still ranks behind Sanders on my list for President (she's not running so I default to the next candidate that emerges (tie between Clinton-O'Malley at this point don't trust neither). The sad thing is 99% of politicians push corporate subsidies.

There isn't a representative alive that doesn't do that. sufrommich Apr 2015 #1
Ah, but when your state's economy depends on Wall Street or Insurance? KittyWampus Apr 2015 #3
Yeah,I hear you. sufrommich Apr 2015 #7
You are assuming that ALL DUers who support a particular politician will 'melt down' should sabrina 1 Apr 2015 #91
This isn't protecting the state's economy JonLP24 Apr 2015 #12
I don't have any reason to slam Warren because I support Clinton. sufrommich Apr 2015 #16
I was just highlighting of the irony of it JonLP24 Apr 2015 #21
Yes, it is--she's protecting Bay State JOBS. It's simple. I don't blame her. MADem Apr 2015 #70
That's not how it works JonLP24 Apr 2015 #73
The purchaser is the Army--they said they could do without it. MADem Apr 2015 #80
So why did they buy it? JonLP24 Apr 2015 #84
The Army took it because the Congress--including the MA delegation--told them to take it. MADem Apr 2015 #86
Try addressing the argument on its merits JonLP24 Apr 2015 #87
Well, OK...I don't agree with a Koch-Scaife approach to government, is that simple enough for you? MADem Apr 2015 #88
I came across it through Google JonLP24 Apr 2015 #89
It's an horrifically BIASED source--creepy, icky, Scaife-esque, Koch-ish, and the antithesis of MADem Apr 2015 #90
Maybe on most of the other publications maybe every other one JonLP24 Apr 2015 #92
I give Ralph Nader a fart in his general direction. Nader carried water for Bush. MADem Apr 2015 #95
I noticed it was 1999 JonLP24 Apr 2015 #98
Nader was being set up to attack Gore from the left. This was a "roll out" for him. MADem Apr 2015 #99
Link? merrily Apr 2015 #101
I don't see them all JonLP24 Apr 2015 #103
What all are you not seeing where? I asked you to post a link to support YOUR claim. merrily Apr 2015 #104
I have no idea if they did or not JonLP24 Apr 2015 #109
97% from individual donations Mnpaul Apr 2015 #113
Oh this will be fun. NuclearDem Apr 2015 #2
They all do that. Autumn Apr 2015 #4
I could search through you posting history- KittyWampus Apr 2015 #8
If you feel the need to search my posting history by all means do so Autumn Apr 2015 #15
Exactly. This is the proverbial teachable moment. DemocratSinceBirth Apr 2015 #11
What do we need to lean from this that we don't already know? Autumn Apr 2015 #18
I am sure both of them did. DemocratSinceBirth Apr 2015 #23
I know that they did, and both were right to do so, so is Elizabeth. Autumn Apr 2015 #26
We should be criticizing them. Strongly. JonLP24 Apr 2015 #25
I'll criticize a fucking republican for anything and everything Autumn Apr 2015 #27
OK? JonLP24 Apr 2015 #29
Still doesn't it violate progressive principles? treestar Apr 2015 #50
No. Have I missed posts complaining about Democrats procuring funds for their states? n/t Autumn Apr 2015 #51
You don't see what's wrong with what's supposed to be the populist revolution of the party NuclearDem Apr 2015 #52
Should the people in her state lose their jobs and go on wefare? Autumn Apr 2015 #54
Same bullshit arguments against eliminating subsidies for fossil fuels. NuclearDem Apr 2015 #55
Hey I want defense contractors done away with too, and fossil fuels, but it ain't gonna happen. Autumn Apr 2015 #56
Not as long as people keep making excuses for giving them money. NuclearDem Apr 2015 #58
Wrong, that's our current system. Our leaders will not change it so we live with it. Autumn Apr 2015 #62
What a profile in courage. NuclearDem Apr 2015 #65
Well at least I'm not busy attacking other DUers for defending Democrats Autumn Apr 2015 #66
Were Obama or Hillary billed as the populist revolution of the party? NuclearDem Apr 2015 #69
That is an excellent pic JonLP24 Apr 2015 #68
Not Your Title, But The Text ProfessorGAC Apr 2015 #63
Give a massive profitable company subsidies and tax breaks or jobs will be in danger? NuclearDem Apr 2015 #64
Still a Non-Sequitur ProfessorGAC Apr 2015 #107
Unanticipated costs is the same as subsidies? merrily Apr 2015 #110
There are a million posts about how wrong the corporatists are to support the MIC treestar Apr 2015 #53
Ya, both parties suck on military spending. BIG TIME /nt think Apr 2015 #60
Yes. It sucks. The military spending is completely insane in this country. /nt think Apr 2015 #57
Funny, I don't remember anyone posting Warren is perfect. Yet about half the people on this merrily Apr 2015 #111
A very vivid imagination is my guess. Autumn Apr 2015 #112
I defend her often JonLP24 Apr 2015 #5
Ah, a save Hillary hit piece. You want she should tell them to go nextdoor to CT, ME, NY, etc.? NYC_SKP Apr 2015 #6
Facts are "hit pieces"? You want Hillary or Schumer to tell Wall Street to go to TX? KittyWampus Apr 2015 #9
Standing up to the MIC is hard. NuclearDem Apr 2015 #10
Particularly when Massachusetts jobs are involved. Orsino Apr 2015 #30
Were the jobs threatened without the subsidy? JonLP24 Apr 2015 #37
That part isn't up to her. Orsino Apr 2015 #41
Because it is the spending on corporate subsides that isn't being cut JonLP24 Apr 2015 #59
That battlefield comm system that the Army said they didn't want -- that was ALL down to jobs. MADem Apr 2015 #72
Of course she is going to market her reasons for the subisdy JonLP24 Apr 2015 #74
In the case of that battlefield system, she was lobbied by the workers for help saving their jobs.nt MADem Apr 2015 #78
everything isn't about Hillary, except she is responsible for my check engine light coming on snooper2 Apr 2015 #14
Her husband is responsible in part for all those Giant Trucks and SUVs on the highway. NYC_SKP Apr 2015 #17
How many Republicans consider LGBT and women's rights human rights? NuclearDem Apr 2015 #19
Yup. That's the only thing Hillary's got going for her. Any Dem will similarly support these. NYC_SKP Apr 2015 #22
Oh I doubt that's all she has going for her. NuclearDem Apr 2015 #24
BUT SHE PUT SUV's ON THE HIGHWAY! AND THE CLENIS! emulatorloo Apr 2015 #31
Why would they go next door if they don't get the subsidy JonLP24 Apr 2015 #28
Politico WilliamPitt Apr 2015 #13
Ah, Politico. That's what it is alright. This clip from the Esquire article that coined the term.. NYC_SKP Apr 2015 #20
This is why being a senator is a poor resume feature for presidency. lumberjack_jeff Apr 2015 #32
This is the only dirt on her JonLP24 Apr 2015 #33
Governors have the very same conflicts. sufrommich Apr 2015 #35
I don't agree. lumberjack_jeff Apr 2015 #36
Regardless of what a Senator is in Washington to do, sufrommich Apr 2015 #38
What the voters expect JonLP24 Apr 2015 #44
Which was my initial point. lumberjack_jeff Apr 2015 #45
Tell me how the jobs are threatened without it JonLP24 Apr 2015 #39
"tell me how the money couldn't have been better spent elsewhere?" sufrommich Apr 2015 #42
We have big problems no matter what so why bother JonLP24 Apr 2015 #48
Interesting, here's a DU point of view on this site Autumn Apr 2015 #34
Is the story true or not JonLP24 Apr 2015 #40
You will have to decide that for yourself. IMO this article posted is a hit piece on Liz Autumn Apr 2015 #46
I observe that you left out the :sarcasm: smiley MineralMan Apr 2015 #43
I thought that was always there in your posts Autumn Apr 2015 #47
No. In fact, I rarely use it. MineralMan Apr 2015 #49
Not a huge suprise that a senator would fight for her state to get these things. hrmjustin Apr 2015 #61
Elizabeth Warren is not a "liberal." She's a moderate. She believes in a strong defense and she MADem Apr 2015 #67
I'm not too familiar with her foreign policy views JonLP24 Apr 2015 #71
"They" also said that John Kerry was "the most liberal Senator in the Senate" when he wasn't even MADem Apr 2015 #77
That wasn't the ADA that rated John Kerry nor Gov Track JonLP24 Apr 2015 #79
When you rank politicians based on votes you get an incomplete picture. MADem Apr 2015 #83
i like the info you give as somEone from the state JI7 Apr 2015 #96
She is a very good senator who cares about her constituents. She is in the state every weekend, MADem Apr 2015 #100
So did Ted Kennedy and John Kerry - as they should Blaukraut Apr 2015 #75
This message was self-deleted by its author 1000words Apr 2015 #76
She was also a supporter of removing the ACA tax on medical devices, because there are a lot of Hoyt Apr 2015 #81
The entire MN delegation does too BainsBane Apr 2015 #93
Completely agree. Sadly, if someone didn't do it, they probably couldn't get elected. Hoyt Apr 2015 #105
In the current system, yes BainsBane Apr 2015 #108
It is what politicians do. nt. NCTraveler Apr 2015 #82
What's your point? 99Forever Apr 2015 #85
I think the OP's point might have been this: frazzled Apr 2015 #97
Awesome response! zappaman Apr 2015 #106
Yes, "gotcha bombshells" that some are fond of to Get other politicians but ask "what's your point?" Cha Apr 2015 #118
same reason Landrieu supported drilling JI7 Apr 2015 #94
Nope--if they don't follow a very narrow path, they're in trouble here... MADem Apr 2015 #102
This story is from 2 months ago. RiverLover Apr 2015 #114
Hillary Clinton takes care of them world wide and all sides. TheKentuckian Apr 2015 #115
The problem isn't that she's providing services to the defense industry. ucrdem Apr 2015 #116
Yeah, politico.. Here's a article from 2012 on how the Defense Industry is watching.. from a Boston Cha Apr 2015 #117
Thank you, ellenrr.. Politics Is about making difficult choices and trying to keep constituents Cha Apr 2015 #119
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