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Tommy_Carcetti

(43,181 posts)
136. Okay.
Thu Sep 4, 2014, 10:54 AM
Sep 2014

Your proof of a coup was a sloppily written AlterNet piece that relies mainly on affirming the consequent, i.e., because the US has been involved in regime changes in foreign countries in the past, it automatically means the US was involved in Ukraine's regime change.

Unfortunately, as it relates to Ukraine specifically, Davies subtly alters the timeline of actual events and omits key facts in order to prove his theory.

For example, Davies claims that there was a vote to remove Yanukovych in the Rada, and after the vote, Yanukovych fled Kiev and called it a coup.

In fact, Yanukovych's helicopters left Kiev in the very early morning of February 22nd. The vote to remove Yanukovych actually didn't take place until the afternoon of February 22nd, which was after Yanukovych had left and after the police had ceased obeying Yanukovych's orders. So Davies completely reverses the cause and effect.

The piece also completely ignores the evidence (demonstrated in surveillance video of Yanukovych's residence) that shows that Yanukovych had been planning to leave for at least three days prior to his ultimate departure. Moving trucks arrived on February 19th. This means that Yanukovych was already planning on leaving before a) the sniper shootings of protesters on the Maidan (February 20) and b) the brokered deal that would have left Yanukovych in power for the time being but would have sped up elections (February 21). So clearly, this was not the actions of a man feeling that he had no choice but to flee for his life.

At least on a subliminal level, Davies himself seems to acknowledge he has a flimsy argument, as evidenced here:

The main thing that distinguishes the U.S. coup in Ukraine from the majority of previous U.S. coups was the minimal role played by the Ukrainian military. Since 1953, most U.S. coups have involved using local senior military officers to deliver the final blow to remove the elected or ruling leader. The officers have then been rewarded with presidencies, dictatorships or other senior positions in new U.S.-backed regimes. The U.S. military cultivates military-to-military relationships to identify and groom future coup leaders, and President Obama's expansion of U.S. special forces operations to 134 countries around the world suggests that this process is ongoing and expanding, not contracting.


So the fact that the situation in Ukraine does not meet the M.O. of US backed coups should immediately raise some red flags as to this theory's validity. In an attempt to save face, Davies hastily argues that the US chose to use the ultranationalist groups Svoboda and Right Sector in place of the military as its coup agent. However, several practicalities make this a illogical leap. First of all, ultranationalists are not ones to cooperate with foreign powers in anything; they are by their inherent nature distrustful of outsiders. Secondly, it presupposes that the only individuals involved in the Maidan protests were Svoboda and Right Sector, when in fact the reality shows it was a wide spectrum of ideologies and people represented in the mass protests. Davies subtly hints earlier in his piece about instances past where protesters have been paid off or are actors, but when you have the movement the size of Maidan, such an argument is simply absurd.

A decent try on your part, I suppose, but some mere elementary research pokes large gaping and fatal holes in Davies' theory.

Regarding your first paragraph...we sure do have a 'gaggle' of those around here. Purveyor Sep 2014 #1
Yep, Shock & Awe is not only for Iraqis... MattSh Sep 2014 #78
I don't have time for nuance, Karmadillo. LiberalAndProud Sep 2014 #2
You are, Parry...nt SidDithers Sep 2014 #3
Answer : Robert Parry. nt geek tragedy Sep 2014 #4
Well, that doesn't refute anything in the article. What is he wrong about? He's not the only one sabrina 1 Sep 2014 #33
The same Robert Parry who blames the U.S. for MH17? Blue_Tires Sep 2014 #5
the same Robert Parry who uncovered the treason of GHWB reddread Sep 2014 #6
I can live in the 1980s, too. Tommy_Carcetti Sep 2014 #8
Not Robert Parry's. Octafish Sep 2014 #9
I hear he is a finalist tritsofme Sep 2014 #14
that wasnt the 80's reddread Sep 2014 #20
We are talking about his excellent work throughout the BUSH years, which airc, were just a few years sabrina 1 Sep 2014 #34
Thank you, Karmadillo. Wish more understood how Journalism works. Octafish Sep 2014 #7
The major separatist stronghold of Sloviansk fell July 5th. Tommy_Carcetti Sep 2014 #11
Got a link for any of that? Octafish Sep 2014 #13
It's pretty concisely spelled out in wiki.... Tommy_Carcetti Sep 2014 #16
Not really a source as Wiki's infiltrated by spooks. Keep trying. Octafish Sep 2014 #18
OFFS. Go to the Wiki page, look at footnotes 309-430. Tommy_Carcetti Sep 2014 #26
Wikipedia is a CIA front!!! zappaman Sep 2014 #27
And let's not get started on Wikibear! Tommy_Carcetti Sep 2014 #31
Great, so if I see a Waaahhhhhhhh in the Ukraine article I'll know where it came from. NuclearDem Sep 2014 #30
Amazing Duckhunter935 Sep 2014 #28
Why is the Kiev government killing its own people? The world is appalled at the carnage being sabrina 1 Sep 2014 #35
WTF? Lost me at WW3. nt jazzimov Sep 2014 #10
Robert Parry is an excellent journalist Dems to Win Sep 2014 #12
WAS a good journalist. WAS. KittyWampus Sep 2014 #15
Why WAS? Octafish Sep 2014 #19
I assume because the modern concept of a "good journalist" utterly precludes him reddread Sep 2014 #21
You're entitled to that opinion. Octafish Sep 2014 #23
I assume you are being rhetorical. There were a lot of "good journalists" when they were critical rhett o rick Sep 2014 #24
What should have knocked some sense of reality into their heads was Biden fracking Ukraine. Octafish Sep 2014 #61
"What should have knocked some sense of reality into their heads", you are looking at it rhett o rick Sep 2014 #68
I like the media's roles. Octafish Sep 2014 #71
that's pretty much it Doctor_J Sep 2014 #121
Weak of mind, yet strong in purpose. Octafish Sep 2014 #130
Journalists don't have to die to stop being good journalists. NuclearDem Sep 2014 #25
See Don Fulsom. Octafish Sep 2014 #62
Terrific. NuclearDem Sep 2014 #65
Like Robert Parry, Don Fulsom is a top journalist covering crimes of the State. Octafish Sep 2014 #70
Ah, well you'll excuse me not making the connection immediately. NuclearDem Sep 2014 #73
Also like Parry, Fulsom had two eyes, two ears, a nose, a mouth..... Tommy_Carcetti Sep 2014 #75
He got it right on Bush/Cheney too. He has made enemies for his reporting on that criminal sabrina 1 Sep 2014 #36
Definitely. 840high Sep 2014 #86
DURec leftstreet Sep 2014 #17
K & R malaise Sep 2014 #22
Parry being Parry. Tommy_Carcetti Sep 2014 #29
Like the snake oil we bought the last time JEB Sep 2014 #37
Depending how you mean that, it's a good assessment. The neocons are the Putinistas stevenleser Sep 2014 #44
Unprovoked war of aggression? JEB Sep 2014 #47
Yes an unprovoked war of aggression. That term has a specific meaning in terms of international law stevenleser Sep 2014 #48
I cannot justify our war of aggression. JEB Sep 2014 #49
We didn't engage in one in the Ukraine situation. You are justifying GWb's invasion of Iraq if stevenleser Sep 2014 #50
Now that is some fancy dancing. JEB Sep 2014 #53
No dancing. You are apologizing for an unprovoked war of aggression, just like in Iraq. nt stevenleser Sep 2014 #54
Oh, it's the old "if you arn't with us, you're againsy us" trick. JEB Sep 2014 #57
Nope, you are engaging in apologia for an unprovoked war of aggression. Simple as that. nt stevenleser Sep 2014 #76
Nope, you are engaging in fear mongering and jingoism. Easy peasy, works like a charm. JEB Sep 2014 #87
Nope. You're projecting. nt stevenleser Sep 2014 #93
This is why you lose credibility on this subject. No one invaded Crimea. It is an insult to the sabrina 1 Sep 2014 #38
Um...he's not the one with no credibility. zappaman Sep 2014 #40
Awkward mythology Sep 2014 #94
"No one invaded Crimea." NuclearDem Sep 2014 #41
It's like another reality, ain't it? zappaman Sep 2014 #42
Seriously. FSogol Sep 2014 #45
No one invaded Crimea? Really? Tommy_Carcetti Sep 2014 #43
That is a link to part of the Western MSM which is hardly a reliable source. Russia always had sabrina 1 Sep 2014 #60
You're hopeless. I don't even know where to start. Tommy_Carcetti Sep 2014 #64
There's that condescension again. I am saying one thing, the Western Media is not reliable any more sabrina 1 Sep 2014 #82
Did Putini say that or not? Duckhunter935 Sep 2014 #101
But RT is totally reliable. NuclearDem Sep 2014 #66
No media is totally reliable, and especially after they have been caught lying over and over again. sabrina 1 Sep 2014 #69
Well, of course RT is totally reliable. NuclearDem Sep 2014 #72
that may be why most of us use multible sourcing Duckhunter935 Sep 2014 #102
Do I know you? sabrina 1 Sep 2014 #110
No, and here is what Putin actually said reorg Sep 2014 #109
So Putin didn't invade Crimea in February/March because Odessa in May? Tommy_Carcetti Sep 2014 #112
as to what Putin actually said reorg Sep 2014 #113
Clearly you have no idea as to the events of the mob riots in Odessa... Tommy_Carcetti Sep 2014 #118
People like you are so uninformed it is frightening and dangerous. BillZBubb Sep 2014 #55
Exactly, thank you, at least YOU know why they didn't invade Crimea. Was that comment intended sabrina 1 Sep 2014 #59
Ridiculous. NuclearDem Sep 2014 #67
What utter bull Duckhunter935 Sep 2014 #103
By law the troops there could not leave without permission. joshcryer Sep 2014 #104
LMFAO! EU is to blame for Russia's war of aggression BC they proposed an association with Ukraine! stevenleser Sep 2014 #32
Yeah, they said that about him when he was writing about the Cheney/Bush criminal administration sabrina 1 Sep 2014 #39
Hundreds of hours of video and thousands of photo from the war zone daily... MattSh Sep 2014 #80
Your entire post is debunked by the Russians themselves admitting their troops are there. stevenleser Sep 2014 #81
Link? MattSh Sep 2014 #97
Has been all over media for the last week. Read it and weep stevenleser Sep 2014 #98
Ooooh, ten soldiers... MattSh Sep 2014 #100
Reading is fundamental. Ten soldiers were CAPTURED. Surely you understand the difference, right? nt stevenleser Sep 2014 #114
Oh, silly Steven. They were just "vacationing." Tommy_Carcetti Sep 2014 #120
LMAO, the lies and sad justifications from Putin and his apologists are pathetic and stevenleser Sep 2014 #127
Good read, Karmadillo. nt. polly7 Sep 2014 #46
I suppose, if you like fiction. nt stevenleser Sep 2014 #51
I don't mind yours so much when I read it. polly7 Sep 2014 #52
I don't post fiction. I have citations that prove the facts underlying my positions. nt stevenleser Sep 2014 #77
Excuse me, but..... polly7 Sep 2014 #91
Victoria Nuland nationalize the fed Sep 2014 #56
If one accepts all that at face value, it does not justify an unprovoked war of aggression by Russia stevenleser Sep 2014 #84
PNAC in Ukraine Octafish Sep 2014 #96
Both sides are telling big lies and Parry's article is misleading. BillZBubb Sep 2014 #58
Sort of like this you mean? MattSh Sep 2014 #83
After reading Parry's piece again, I'm even more astonished how idiotic it is. Tommy_Carcetti Sep 2014 #63
''All of this--I mean, all of this--is Putin's handiwork.'' -- Tommy_Carcetti Octafish Sep 2014 #74
You show me the evidence as to how the US actually executed the forcible removal of Yanukovych.... Tommy_Carcetti Sep 2014 #79
The irony is, even if the US completely put the uprising up to it, it does not justify Russia's stevenleser Sep 2014 #85
If word out of the mouths of US State Department officials won't do it, perhaps you need new media. Octafish Sep 2014 #90
Someone in the State Department confessed to forcibly removing Yanukovych from power? Tommy_Carcetti Sep 2014 #92
It was the BFEE. zappaman Sep 2014 #99
Funny how you never find anything wrong with the BFEE, zappaman. Octafish Sep 2014 #107
You mean like the Iraq war that every DUer disagreed with including zappaman? nt stevenleser Sep 2014 #117
Got a link for that? Octafish Sep 2014 #122
Pretty lazy, huh? Tommy_Carcetti Sep 2014 #123
Tag Team, huh? Octafish Sep 2014 #125
Doesn't take a tag team to show you are making things up again. zappaman Sep 2014 #158
Like where you posted all the negative stuff about the BFEE? Octafish Sep 2014 #161
Check out Octafish's responses throughout the thread from #107 down. Its deliberate. stevenleser Sep 2014 #139
Link for what? nt stevenleser Sep 2014 #126
Where zappaman posted in opposition to the Iraq invasion. Octafish Sep 2014 #128
You are accusing some DUers of being in favor of the Iraq war? You need proof otherwise? stevenleser Sep 2014 #129
No need to write what I didn't. Octafish Sep 2014 #131
You accused Zappaman of not being against anything the BFEE does. Iraq was one of those things. stevenleser Sep 2014 #132
No. That's what you said. Octafish Sep 2014 #133
Your post #107 is only a few above this. Its not like its from another OP. stevenleser Sep 2014 #134
I write about the BFEE and that's embarrassing? Octafish Sep 2014 #135
You suggested Zappaman didnt object to anything about the BFEE. Which he did and obviously so. stevenleser Sep 2014 #138
Right. So he had nothing to say. Seems you don't either. Octafish Sep 2014 #140
We both object to what the BFEE did with Iraq. As I have already told you and was proven. stevenleser Sep 2014 #142
It may satisfy your mind, stevenleser. Octafish Sep 2014 #143
Its in post #123 above. Once again, how many times do we have to post something before it sinks in stevenleser Sep 2014 #146
Except it doesn't show what you said it does. Octafish Sep 2014 #149
OK, lets try this very slowly. stevenleser Sep 2014 #150
Don't need to go slow. Octafish Sep 2014 #166
Sorry dude. zappaman Sep 2014 #163
Brad? Is that an attempt to smear me as Bradblog? Octafish Sep 2014 #167
Don't act like we aren't buds, Brad. zappaman Sep 2014 #168
So who is Brad you refer to? Octafish Sep 2014 #169
Why do you smear DUers, dude? zappaman Sep 2014 #170
Except it's not a smear to point out you defending the BFEE. Octafish Sep 2014 #173
Why do you smear DUers, Brad? zappaman Sep 2014 #174
It's part of a pattern. Octafish Sep 2014 #175
Yes, your smears and dodging of your own words is certainly a pattern. zappaman Sep 2014 #176
Seems like you're on to me. Octafish Sep 2014 #178
We all are, dude. zappaman Sep 2014 #184
You mean, apart from where DUers up and down this thread have shown you? Octafish Sep 2014 #108
All I've ever seen is references to a phone call. One that happened weeks before Yanukovych left. Tommy_Carcetti Sep 2014 #111
Preferences? LOL. Octafish Sep 2014 #116
*How* did the "coup" happen? Tommy_Carcetti Sep 2014 #119
America's Coup Machine: Destroying Democracy Since 1953 Octafish Sep 2014 #124
Okay. Tommy_Carcetti Sep 2014 #136
Nothing you wrote is sourced. Octafish Sep 2014 #141
When we source something, you ignore it and claim several posts later it wasnt sourced. stevenleser Sep 2014 #144
Really? Like Tag Team? Octafish Sep 2014 #148
Really? Like... does a source become invalid if more than one person cites it? stevenleser Sep 2014 #151
Are you disputing the timeline? Tommy_Carcetti Sep 2014 #145
No, that's not it. Octafish Sep 2014 #147
It's your theory to prove. Tommy_Carcetti Sep 2014 #152
I've posited no theory. Octafish Sep 2014 #153
So how did the CIA remove Yanukovych? Tommy_Carcetti Sep 2014 #154
Through covert means. Octafish Sep 2014 #156
Okay, let's look back at the Davies piece, if we must. Tommy_Carcetti Sep 2014 #159
That provides 'Plausible Deniability.' Octafish Sep 2014 #160
What provides plausible deniability? The video of Yanukovych packing up and leaving? Tommy_Carcetti Sep 2014 #165
Got nothing? nt Tommy_Carcetti Sep 2014 #177
The CIA’S Mop-Up Man: LA Times Reporter Cleared Stories with Agency before Publication Octafish Sep 2014 #179
And this is proof the CIA faked the videos of Yanukovych how? nt Tommy_Carcetti Sep 2014 #182
Documents CIA manipulation of the media. Octafish Sep 2014 #183
We're talking about a very specific case here. Tommy_Carcetti Sep 2014 #186
I think I can speak for Octafish. zappaman Sep 2014 #187
It is a coup. zappaman Sep 2014 #164
I've learned this much from zappaman... Octafish Sep 2014 #180
You're welcome! zappaman Sep 2014 #185
Basically anyone with any remote ties to US media is a liar. joshcryer Sep 2014 #105
I read that article on another site, today. Parry nails it.... truth2power Sep 2014 #88
Der Spiegel... 9/01/2014 truth2power Sep 2014 #89
Yes poor innocent little Putin mythology Sep 2014 #95
I keep losing track of the reasons for the invasion of Crimea and Ukraine davidpdx Sep 2014 #106
And that shows you exactly what's going on here. An unprovoked war of aggression by Russia they stevenleser Sep 2014 #115
Recommend....Good Read KoKo Sep 2014 #137
Has anyone pointed out that the USA has a firm hand on its own backyard? flamingdem Sep 2014 #155
Nothing about the US will justify an unprovoked war of aggression by Russia against Ukraine. nt stevenleser Sep 2014 #171
I'm not trying to justify anything flamingdem Sep 2014 #172
Are we going to try to fix our economy by going back to the cold war era? I don't think it is going jwirr Sep 2014 #157
aaaaaand ........... one more kick! nt. polly7 Sep 2014 #162
He thinks less of our media than I do. nt kelliekat44 Sep 2014 #181
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