HomeLatest ThreadsGreatest ThreadsForums & GroupsMy SubscriptionsMy Posts
DU Home » Latest Threads » Forums & Groups » Main » General Discussion (Forum) » Robert Parry: Who’s Telli... » Reply #63

Response to Karmadillo (Original post)

Wed Sep 3, 2014, 12:24 PM

63. After reading Parry's piece again, I'm even more astonished how idiotic it is.

So Maidan happens. We all see it on television. It's massively huge, clearly far more than just a few western agent provocateurs out there. And we know they have a legitimate gripe about Yanukovych's corruption. And we also know that many of them are not to pleased about Yanukovych cuddling up to a man who's gone on record as claiming that Ukraine doesn't exist as a country. So there's real--not imaginary--anger there.

Protesters get beaten. Protests don't stop. Protesters get shot. Protests don't stop.

Finally, Yanukovych realizes he's not a very popular man, but he's still a very wealthy man, and he can still live a very comfortable life somewhere else (such as Russia). So he sends moving trucks to his house, gathers up all the antique vases and oil paintings he can possibly fit, and choppers out of Ukraine in his fleet of helicopters and into Russia.

Yankovych out, interim government in, elections scheduled for May. Boom. Regime change.

At this point, Putin's still been pretty much a side player throughout it all. Nothing more than a few phone calls with Yanukovych, probably just offering him the sanctuary in Russia that he ultimately accepted.

Putin's got a choice to make. He could recognize that Ukraine is its own country, that Ukraine is not part of Russia, that he cannot control what happens in Ukraine, and no matter how much he wants Ukraine to be part of a Russian trade partnership, the Ukrainians just don't want that to happen.

He could:

A: Dust off his hands and walk away at this point. In that case, Ukrainian elections are held in May. The entire country gets to vote. There's probably some residual grumbling between east and west, but the country likely slowly begins to heal and try and get back to normal. Maybe it joins the EU. Maybe it doesn't. Maybe Crimea holds a real legitimate vote as had been scheduled and decides it wants to be independent. Maybe it wants to remain part of Ukraine. And that's pretty much it.

OR.....

B: Putin can realize how weak the Ukrainian government is just having gone through a revolution, how weak the Ukrainian military is after decades of waste and corruption, and then size up Ukraine and all the parts of it he's long seen as being "historically Russian." Starting with Crimea. Which already has Russian troops stationed at the naval bases there, meaning it's an easy in against token opposition.

Guess what choice Putin makes?

Yup. Choice B. He sends his men into Crimea sans insignia, hastily schedules a sham plebiscite asking Crimeans to be annexed into Russia, announces a laughably unbelievable yes result, and takes in Russia. And then announces retroactively that he's invaded Crimea.

But wait, there's more.

He then sends in FSB guys like Girkin and Borodai into Luhansk and Donetsk, where they meet up with local nutcases like Gubarev and Pushilin. Government buildings in various towns are seized by armed force, checkpoints are erected around the cities, there's all sorts of kidnapping and murdering and mayhem. "Volunteers" come across the Russian border. Weaponry--lots and lots and lots of it--comes across the Russian border. An even more laughably sham plebecite with an even more laughably unbelievable yes result is undertaken. Meanwhile, these separatists prevent any citizens under their control from voting in the May presidential elections.

The Ukrainian government waits about a month to see if these separatists will simply walk away. Of course, they don't. The government launches an operation to uproot them. It's not the prettiest or most well-thought out of operations. Still, by July the Ukrainians have gained the upper hand. Then MH17 is shot out of the sky, all logical signs point to the separatists as the culprits, and whatever remaining public support for the separatists that had remains all but vanishes. So it looks like Ukraine may finally be on the way to stability and some semblance of normality might be around the corner.

But wait, there's more.

In about a two week time period, the situation in Eastern Ukraine does a near 180. Towns and areas retaken by the Ukrainian government fall back into separatist hands. All of this so coincidentally happens when there's a huge spike in reports of border crossings by the Russian military. And you now have reports of the Ukrainian army facing off against Crimea-ish insignia-less troops, extremely well armed and extremely well-trained, far more than what they had seen before. All the while, Putin's talking about how Ukrainians and Russians are the same people, about statehood for "Novorossiya", about how he could take Kyiv in two weeks if he wanted, really inflammatory stuff.

All of this--I mean, all of this--is Putin's handiwork. All of this rests on Putin's shoulders. Whatever talk there was about Nuland's cookies or her phone calls is so far removed from the current situation, and so incredibly insignificant to the situation that we are faced with today. To argue anything else would be to insult the intelligence of thinking people everywhere.

But that is just what Parry has chosen to do here.

Reply to this post

Back to OP Alert abuse Link to post in-thread

Always highlight: 10 newest replies | Replies posted after I mark a forum
Replies to this discussion thread
Arrow 187 replies Author Time Post
Karmadillo Sep 2014 OP
Purveyor Sep 2014 #1
MattSh Sep 2014 #78
LiberalAndProud Sep 2014 #2
SidDithers Sep 2014 #3
geek tragedy Sep 2014 #4
sabrina 1 Sep 2014 #33
Blue_Tires Sep 2014 #5
reddread Sep 2014 #6
Tommy_Carcetti Sep 2014 #8
Octafish Sep 2014 #9
tritsofme Sep 2014 #14
reddread Sep 2014 #20
sabrina 1 Sep 2014 #34
Octafish Sep 2014 #7
Tommy_Carcetti Sep 2014 #11
Octafish Sep 2014 #13
Tommy_Carcetti Sep 2014 #16
Octafish Sep 2014 #18
Tommy_Carcetti Sep 2014 #26
zappaman Sep 2014 #27
Tommy_Carcetti Sep 2014 #31
NuclearDem Sep 2014 #30
Duckhunter935 Sep 2014 #28
sabrina 1 Sep 2014 #35
jazzimov Sep 2014 #10
Dems to Win Sep 2014 #12
KittyWampus Sep 2014 #15
Octafish Sep 2014 #19
reddread Sep 2014 #21
Octafish Sep 2014 #23
rhett o rick Sep 2014 #24
Octafish Sep 2014 #61
rhett o rick Sep 2014 #68
Octafish Sep 2014 #71
Doctor_J Sep 2014 #121
Octafish Sep 2014 #130
NuclearDem Sep 2014 #25
Octafish Sep 2014 #62
NuclearDem Sep 2014 #65
Octafish Sep 2014 #70
NuclearDem Sep 2014 #73
Tommy_Carcetti Sep 2014 #75
sabrina 1 Sep 2014 #36
840high Sep 2014 #86
leftstreet Sep 2014 #17
malaise Sep 2014 #22
Tommy_Carcetti Sep 2014 #29
JEB Sep 2014 #37
stevenleser Sep 2014 #44
JEB Sep 2014 #47
stevenleser Sep 2014 #48
JEB Sep 2014 #49
stevenleser Sep 2014 #50
JEB Sep 2014 #53
stevenleser Sep 2014 #54
JEB Sep 2014 #57
stevenleser Sep 2014 #76
JEB Sep 2014 #87
stevenleser Sep 2014 #93
sabrina 1 Sep 2014 #38
zappaman Sep 2014 #40
mythology Sep 2014 #94
NuclearDem Sep 2014 #41
zappaman Sep 2014 #42
FSogol Sep 2014 #45
Tommy_Carcetti Sep 2014 #43
sabrina 1 Sep 2014 #60
Tommy_Carcetti Sep 2014 #64
sabrina 1 Sep 2014 #82
Duckhunter935 Sep 2014 #101
NuclearDem Sep 2014 #66
sabrina 1 Sep 2014 #69
NuclearDem Sep 2014 #72
Duckhunter935 Sep 2014 #102
sabrina 1 Sep 2014 #110
reorg Sep 2014 #109
Tommy_Carcetti Sep 2014 #112
reorg Sep 2014 #113
Tommy_Carcetti Sep 2014 #118
BillZBubb Sep 2014 #55
sabrina 1 Sep 2014 #59
NuclearDem Sep 2014 #67
Duckhunter935 Sep 2014 #103
joshcryer Sep 2014 #104
stevenleser Sep 2014 #32
sabrina 1 Sep 2014 #39
MattSh Sep 2014 #80
stevenleser Sep 2014 #81
MattSh Sep 2014 #97
stevenleser Sep 2014 #98
MattSh Sep 2014 #100
stevenleser Sep 2014 #114
Tommy_Carcetti Sep 2014 #120
stevenleser Sep 2014 #127
polly7 Sep 2014 #46
stevenleser Sep 2014 #51
polly7 Sep 2014 #52
stevenleser Sep 2014 #77
polly7 Sep 2014 #91
nationalize the fed Sep 2014 #56
stevenleser Sep 2014 #84
Octafish Sep 2014 #96
BillZBubb Sep 2014 #58
MattSh Sep 2014 #83
LineReply After reading Parry's piece again, I'm even more astonished how idiotic it is.
Tommy_Carcetti Sep 2014 #63
Octafish Sep 2014 #74
Tommy_Carcetti Sep 2014 #79
stevenleser Sep 2014 #85
Octafish Sep 2014 #90
Tommy_Carcetti Sep 2014 #92
zappaman Sep 2014 #99
Octafish Sep 2014 #107
stevenleser Sep 2014 #117
Octafish Sep 2014 #122
Tommy_Carcetti Sep 2014 #123
Octafish Sep 2014 #125
zappaman Sep 2014 #158
Octafish Sep 2014 #161
stevenleser Sep 2014 #139
stevenleser Sep 2014 #126
Octafish Sep 2014 #128
stevenleser Sep 2014 #129
Octafish Sep 2014 #131
stevenleser Sep 2014 #132
Octafish Sep 2014 #133
stevenleser Sep 2014 #134
Octafish Sep 2014 #135
stevenleser Sep 2014 #138
Octafish Sep 2014 #140
stevenleser Sep 2014 #142
Octafish Sep 2014 #143
stevenleser Sep 2014 #146
Octafish Sep 2014 #149
stevenleser Sep 2014 #150
Octafish Sep 2014 #166
zappaman Sep 2014 #163
Octafish Sep 2014 #167
zappaman Sep 2014 #168
Octafish Sep 2014 #169
zappaman Sep 2014 #170
Octafish Sep 2014 #173
zappaman Sep 2014 #174
Octafish Sep 2014 #175
zappaman Sep 2014 #176
Octafish Sep 2014 #178
zappaman Sep 2014 #184
Octafish Sep 2014 #108
Tommy_Carcetti Sep 2014 #111
Octafish Sep 2014 #116
Tommy_Carcetti Sep 2014 #119
Octafish Sep 2014 #124
Tommy_Carcetti Sep 2014 #136
Octafish Sep 2014 #141
stevenleser Sep 2014 #144
Octafish Sep 2014 #148
stevenleser Sep 2014 #151
Tommy_Carcetti Sep 2014 #145
Octafish Sep 2014 #147
Tommy_Carcetti Sep 2014 #152
Octafish Sep 2014 #153
Tommy_Carcetti Sep 2014 #154
Octafish Sep 2014 #156
Tommy_Carcetti Sep 2014 #159
Octafish Sep 2014 #160
Tommy_Carcetti Sep 2014 #165
Tommy_Carcetti Sep 2014 #177
Octafish Sep 2014 #179
Tommy_Carcetti Sep 2014 #182
Octafish Sep 2014 #183
Tommy_Carcetti Sep 2014 #186
zappaman Sep 2014 #187
zappaman Sep 2014 #164
Octafish Sep 2014 #180
zappaman Sep 2014 #185
joshcryer Sep 2014 #105
truth2power Sep 2014 #88
truth2power Sep 2014 #89
mythology Sep 2014 #95
davidpdx Sep 2014 #106
stevenleser Sep 2014 #115
KoKo Sep 2014 #137
flamingdem Sep 2014 #155
stevenleser Sep 2014 #171
flamingdem Sep 2014 #172
jwirr Sep 2014 #157
polly7 Sep 2014 #162
kelliekat44 Sep 2014 #181
Please login to view edit histories.